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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!


  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Germany Germans?

    Using English the way I do, that would be German Germans. Not that it's not still silly, it's just correctly silly now.
    I agree, but remember, we have to assume that the word "german" doesn't exist, just like there is no word for "person from the USA". I know it was grammatically nonsense, but I needed precision more than I needed grammatical correctness.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I have used "USAians" to refer to people from the USA before now, I think something like it is needed. It seems to me that there are two American continents connected by a landbridge. In my opinion they are not one continent, there is a landbridge, but there is a wider landbridge connecting Africa to Eurasia, and the difference between Europe and Asia is just how far West/North East/South you are.
    Sure, but even if people of USA where referred as "North Americans", that would still be incorrect. Less so, but still incorrect.




    To drag this back to the actual topic: am I the only one deeply disturbed with the possibilities of the spell? It looks like with enough development, Sarah could eventually be trapped in it, or be incapable of telling reality from the spell. That is a recipe for mental breakdown.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    I would describe my feelings more on the intrigued side of the spectrum. Virtual vs. Real is a dichotomy I enjoy seeing explored, so it will be interesting to see how deep Sarah gets into it. I hope Dan will do it justice. Plus, it's a good opportunity to show aspects of a character.

    It was great fun when Adventure Time did the episode "All the Little People" - it was able to show how dangerous being in control of your fantasies can be, especially if you're liable to feel guilty if things don't work out. It's actually one of my favourite episodes that show Finn's character, as well as being an interesting insight into the way the artists approach the show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    The irony comes in when we use "Orcs are a metaphor for human savagery" to rationalize human savagery.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Sure, but even if people of USA where referred as "North Americans", that would still be incorrect. Less so, but still incorrect.

    Grey Wolf
    I entirely agree. It needs to be something short, even "USAian" is probably too long, especially as you need to pronounce the first three letters individually. Is USian possible? Can we slur that into "Usian" without it sounding horrid?

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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Edit: Forgot my conclusion: IMnpHO, the correct response to a label is to only ascribe the characteristics necessarily shared by the entire group. Whether the vast majority, or hell even 99.9% of all its members also have properties B, C and D is irrelevant. Do not make assumptions: this person in front of you might be the 0.01%.
    To this I'd like to add just a few words: even if assuming B, C and D would be accurate 99.9% of the time and have very low probability of causing misunderstanding, when you encounter a person with quality A, for any person in those 0.1% it will happen Every. Damned. Time.

    This is a very solid reason to forgo that particular label and even aquire aversion to labels in general.


    Aside from that: could Sarah use her illusion spell while inside of her illusion spell and thus gain truly ludicrous time acceleration Inception style? And yes, I think the loss of accuracy clinches it for complicated equipment like computers.

    edit: there were no typos here, you haven't seen anything.
    Last edited by Radar; 2015-04-24 at 11:57 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    Aside from that: could Sarah use her illusion spell while inside of her illusion spell and thus gain truly ludicrous time acceleration Inception style?
    Oooh, that's a good one I had not considered. We have spent so much time discussing whether electronics work, we have not even mentioned "will spells work?". That could be fun. In a "definitely will drive you mad, as described in Inception" meaning of fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    And yes, I think the loss of accuracy cliches it for complicated equipment like computers.
    I think you mean "clinches"? I am aware of cliches about lack of accuracy of simulations, but otherwise don't see how those would interact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Which was precisely my point: the vast majority of religious people do NOT also have the properties B, C and D that those USA Americans estadounidenses ascribed to me. My particular religion (like almost all religions) has order of magnitude more adherents outside the US than inside, and yet those USA Americans estadounidenses assume that all religious people are like USA American estadounidense religious people (without even going into "do characteristics B, C and D even appear in the vast majority of USA American estadounidense religious?" question, btw, which I'm doubtful of but am not qualified to state).
    Isn't that a language barrier? If I told you I was property A in italian, you wouldn't understand the word. English just has this little issue of being used entirely too much by too many different geographical groups that think they are using the same language. On to the real point:

    In fact, there is a word for what you are doing (ascribing a member of a group characteristics you assume all members of the group has). It is not a nice word, and it is especially famous when it comes to those assumptions based on skin colour. So do tell, what is the practical difference between assuming that all members of religion X have properties B, C and D, and assuming that all members of race X have properties E, F and G? E.g. was the person that assumed that Ashley should learn English correct in his assumption, in your eyes, since the "vast majority" (to use your own words) of Asian people can't speak English?
    Racism, noun. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.

    So, ascribing a member of a group characteristics you assume most members of the group have is not racism. It lacks the part where you discriminate or act superior. Should I offer sunscreen to black people? I think not doing that isn't racist: I am ascribing to them characteristics (resistance to sunlight) that I believe most people of their race have. (For all I know, I'm wrong. I can reasonably assume to be statistically correct, however). As for the Ashley example: he's ignoring a good amount of context to make that assumption, but let's ignore that and say there aren't many asian people that are born in the USA (which is false). The problem there is how he acts on that information. If I saw an asian girl in a shop having trouble with something, should I not assume she is having trouble with the language and try and help her if I can? Is that racist? I don't think it is. If someone saw me at a party reading a math book (happened), they probably will think I'm a nerd. If they use that assumption to be a jerk, call me names and accidentally spill drinks on me, that's wrong (nerdism? ); if they tried to get me into their social circle and help me out in a context I'm not comfortable in, they wouldn't be. Both people act on the same assumptions and preconceptions, except one tries to help while the other is just being a ****. Maybe I'm a jock and just need to finish this book by tomorrow at all costs, but couldn't resist going to the party anyway? Should they not assume anything about me at all because there might be an extreme case? I don't like that. I'd rather take the reasonable risk and be wrong some of the times (unless the result is extremely offensive yadda yadda yadda - just make an informed average risk benefit evaluation).

    (Now you might say we are naturally biased towards groups we are part of (which is true), but then everyone is racist, so I'm going to say striving to avoid those feelings is enough to say one person isn't racist.)

    Edit: Forgot my conclusion: IMnpHO, the correct response to a label is to only ascribe the characteristics necessarily shared by the entire group. Whether the vast majority, or hell even 99.9% of all its members also have properties B, C and D is irrelevant. Do not make assumptions: this person in front of you might be the 0.01%.
    Yeah, I don't like that. The way I see it, you are handicapping yourself due to risk aversion. Which I guess is fine if you believe the result of making a faux pas is bad enough. Which I guess is also comprehensible given that you were on the receiving end of this while I never actually was, and I probably am not going to be ever. Overall, though, I think that assuming something about someone and being proven wrong is not that bad. Also, the 0.01% is really statistically insignificant, so I have trouble caring about it: the world is made of exceptions, but is run by approximated models. And they work.

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mormegil View Post
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    Racism, noun. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.
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    If I were going to discuss this, that's not the definition I would use.

    there aren't many asian people that are born in the USA (which is false).
    No, that is true. To be an asian, you have to have been born in Asia, the USA is not in Asia.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2015-04-24 at 04:01 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mormegil View Post
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    Yeah, I don't like that. The way I see it, you are handicapping yourself due to risk aversion. Which I guess is fine if you believe the result of making a faux pas is bad enough. Which I guess is also comprehensible given that you were on the receiving end of this while I never actually was, and I probably am not going to be ever. Overall, though, I think that assuming something about someone and being proven wrong is not that bad. Also, the 0.01% is really statistically insignificant, so I have trouble caring about it: the world is made of exceptions, but is run by approximated models. And they work.
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    Except models for social interaction, which don't at all. I've been looking at studies of networks recently. They're quite poor, for a variety of reasons, but the important thing is that I've yet to see one that works, even in something as simple as community identification. Approximations are fine, but the map is not the terrain, especially in these situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    The irony comes in when we use "Orcs are a metaphor for human savagery" to rationalize human savagery.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mormegil View Post
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    (...)Also, the 0.01% is really statistically insignificant, so I have trouble caring about it: the world is made of exceptions, but is run by approximated models. And they work.

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    You're missing the important point: Ashley is in this particular case that 0.1%. For her in particular, the misinterpretation happened every damned time. For her paritcular case it was way more practical to do away with the label, then to constantly deal with preconceptions about her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mormegil View Post
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    Yeah, I don't like that. The way I see it, you are handicapping yourself due to risk aversion. Which I guess is fine if you believe the result of making a faux pas is bad enough. Which I guess is also comprehensible given that you were on the receiving end of this while I never actually was, and I probably am not going to be ever. Overall, though, I think that assuming something about someone and being proven wrong is not that bad. Also, the 0.01% is really statistically insignificant, so I have trouble caring about it: the world is made of exceptions, but is run by approximated models. And they work.

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    I don't know why I don't like this mindset.

    But I do. Lets examine why.

    Why would I dislike an attitude that can potentially offend 0.01% of people? well lets see, statistics are relative. in a world of what, 7 billion people by now? 0.01% of that is like what, 700,000 people? Whoa thats a lot. Why would I want to offend 700,000 people? I'd be afraid of offending even 700 people or 70 people. 700,000? are you CRAZY? Thats like a freaking town of people to offend. and only one of me. Not wise in any circumstance. Sure they're probably spread out. but I feel like offending one is offending them all, to insult someone because of a preference they have is to insult everyone who has that preference as well. its a principle I have to adhere to, regardless of how improbable the circumstances.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ...

    Edit: reading a bit more on the topic of Mexican's trying to reclain the term American to mean everyone from the American continent, I have come across a word that means "person from the United States of America": estadounidense. I'll go ahead and replace that in my post above.

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    Estadounidense translates to mean "American", unless you go for the literal translation which is "Of, from, or relating to the United States." And if we want to be picky, there are two United States; the United States of America and the United States of Mexico. Context is everything, and things do have a typical meaning. If, for example, I said someone from Afghanistan was an Afghan and that I was wrong, despite being the generally accepted name for citizens of Afghanistan, I would call myself correct because I meant the blanket. You could also be a Lesbian while being male, simply because there's the Greek island of Lesbos.

    In the same line of thinking, American, in English, has come to mean someone from the United States of America. More information is needed if the writer/speaker intends to refer to either or both of the continents with America in their name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    ...
    Aside from that: could Sarah use her illusion spell while inside of her illusion spell and thus gain truly ludicrous time acceleration Inception style? And yes, I think the loss of accuracy clinches it for complicated equipment like computers.

    ...
    If that indeed can be the case, I guess we'll know what happened if Sarah ever passes out in a random coma some day.


    Also related, I'm wondering how Dan will work in the NP story into the main comic. Will Sarah be freaking out about Pandora telling her all these things still? I hope this doesn't get only small reference when Sarah shows up again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by memnarch View Post
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    Estadounidense translates to mean "American", unless you go for the literal translation which is "Of, from, or relating to the United States." And if we want to be picky, there are two United States; the United States of America and the United States of Mexico. Context is everything, and things do have a typical meaning. If, for example, I said someone from Afghanistan was an Afghan and that I was wrong, despite being the generally accepted name for citizens of Afghanistan, I would call myself correct because I meant the blanket. You could also be a Lesbian while being male, simply because there's the Greek island of Lesbos.

    In the same line of thinking, American, in English, has come to mean someone from the United States of America. More information is needed if the writer/speaker intends to refer to either or both of the continents with America in their name.
    We need a word for "person from the USA". "American" doesn't do that, because America is a continent or continents, that include many other states. Common useage doesn't cut it as a test, because the majority can be factually wrong, as they are in this case.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    I've known people who say "Users", probably partially because "user" is already a word, but I find it confusing. I tend to say "Statian" or "Stater" as in "someone from the States". I find it less confusing because, although there are other places called "United States of", those places are "United States of [Country]" meaning you can just use the country, while the USA is "United States of [Continent]" so using just the continent is confusing. I think a lot of people miss that distinction. The "United Kingdom of Great Britain in Northern Ireland" means "The United Kingdom that includes Great Britain and Northern Ireland". "The United States of Mexico" means "The United States that, together, form the country of Mexico". But "The United States of America" means "The United States that are all located in America" in the same way that "The European Union" means "The Union of countries that are all in Europe". (Which means that USA really is already a wrong term, since it doesn't include ALL the United States of America. It doesn't include the Mexican ones, which are also united states of America).

    Just like you can't say "Europe" and assume everyone understands you're excluding all European countries that aren't part of the EU, you shouldn't say "America" and assume everyone will understand you're excluding all American countries that aren't part of the USA.

    But since other countries have names that allow for different shortenings, I'm all for shortening the USA to US or even just States, even though "the states" just means "the countries" and is still confusing, I find it less confusing than using the continent.

    French also have a noun and adjective for the USA specifically by the way. Étatsunien. That's also used for the language. As a translator, if I translate something from "American English", on the book it will say it's translated from "Étatsunien" (Since Canadian English is also a form of American English, so just "American English" would also be inaccurate and potentially confusing).

    I think this debate about the USA makes it all too clear how labels can be unhelpful when the people are using them to mean different thing. Highlighted again by the user who pointed out "Asian" means "from Asia" even though it's often used to mean "person of a specific race regardless of where they were born or what their citizenship is". I'd add to that that even when people use it as a race, very often they mean East-Asian specifically and exclude Middle-Eastern or South-Asian, despite both being Asian historically (if you use it for "racial origin" and not "citizenship"). And of course white people who were born and raised in Asia, who are citizen of Asia, even who don't speak a word of English, would rarely be called "Asian" if they visit the US, even if they may very well identify as such.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    I've known people who say "Users", probably partially because "user" is already a word, but I find it confusing. I tend to say "Statian" or "Stater" as in "someone from the States".
    Of those two I think I prefer Statian, but it still sounds sort of clumsy to me, though better than USAian.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    When someone says 'American', you know they're talking about someone from the United States. People don't call people from North and South America 'Americans'. They call them 'North Americans' or 'South Americans'.

    Similarly, if someone says 'The United States of America', you know they mean the country between Canada and Mexico. Just because the name is made up of vague-sounding words doesn't mean the name itself is vague. No one would ever think you meant Mexico or Canada.

    'American' is the accepted English language demonym for 'person from the United States of America'. Just like 'British' is the accepted English language demonym for 'person from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', even though the UK isn't the only place with 'Britain' in its name.

    See also: 'Chinese' despite there being two countries with China in the name, 'Dutch' even though people from the Netherlands aren't from Germany (Deutschland), etc.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2015-04-24 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    When someone says 'American', you know they're talking about someone from the United States. People don't call people from North and South America 'Americans'. They call them 'North Americans' or 'South Americans'.
    That is an assumption. I have, in the past, used "American" to meant "All Americans combined", and wouldn't have used either "North American" or "South American" because both would be too restrictive (since I meant both of those, plus Central Americans, plus possibly other Americans depending on how you divide up America). And I have heard people use it this way, too. Assumptions like this one are exactly the problem with labels. Yes, within the United States, people who say "American" typically mean "from the United States of America". That is not true of everywhere and it was something for me to adjust to when I moved to the US. You may think people are being disingenuous here just because they don't like the word, but it's not just that. I has been a problem for people in the past and that's why the issue gets raised.

    Similarly, moving to the US caused me to have to get used to things like "This person isn't Christian, they're Catholic" because "Christian" is assumed to mean "Protestant" in the US, even though I didn't actually know the difference between "Christian" and "Catholic" before I moved because the former is used to mean the latter where I come from. Of course both uses are inaccurate anyway.

    It's fine using labels if you know the person you're talking to has the same definition for them as you do. When you know that they don't, and you don't know a word they'd understand for what you mean, it makes more sense to use a sentence than a label to describe things.

    EDIT: Also, when I learned the continents, "North America" did not include Mexico. Here, it does. So even using "North America" could easily be misunderstood if you don't first make sure you mean the same thing.
    Last edited by Lissou; 2015-04-24 at 08:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    No, that is true. To be an asian, you have to have been born in Asia, the USA is not in Asia.
    Point taken.
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    well, we got Canadian, Mexican....thing is, if we want separate names for the Americas and the US, we got to come up with something catchy and rolls off the tongue for the US.

    maybe the term "Eagle-American" would be a good distinction? American to refer to the America continent in general, and Eagle to denote someone coming from the states, since we Eagle Americans seem to like Eagles a lot. how about that?
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    I think if you're going for a word this long, US American works fine. It's more self-explanatory than "Eagle" and has the same number of syllables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    well, we got Canadian, Mexican....thing is, if we want separate names for the Americas and the US, we got to come up with something catchy and rolls off the tongue for the US.

    maybe the term "Eagle-American" would be a good distinction? American to refer to the America continent in general, and Eagle to denote someone coming from the states, since we Eagle Americans seem to like Eagles a lot. how about that?
    There are many animal possibilities, most of them potentially uncomplimentary:

    Rattlesnake Americans? Armadillo Americans? Grizzly Americans? Beaver Americans? Coyote Americans? Alligator Americans? Boa Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    I think if you're going for a word this long, US American works fine. It's more self-explanatory than "Eagle" and has the same number of syllables.
    Agreed, but I think it should be much shorter, it's something that will get abbreviated if it's long.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2015-04-26 at 11:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Agreed, but I think it should be much shorter, it's something that will get abbreviated if it's long.
    oh, how about Usamian? it rolls off the tongue, it's short for "US American" and it has SAM in it, like Uncle Sam!
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    So, more spell info - apparently, any modifications decrease accuracy.

    Also, the commentary makes it clearer - the trait that gave the spell was probably her extremely vivid imagination.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Okay, revising my stance on computers based on new information.

    As the information is present , Sarah should be able to access information on a computer-if she knows enough about how the computer is programed to find the file if she was using it in real life and proceeds to use the computer manually.

    An idea of what folder it may also be required.

    Otherwise she gets what she expects which might not be an accurate depiction of what's actually in the file.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    This is a really cool way to phrase this spell. Also, I'm sure everybody believes Sarah when she says she's not going to use that spell to undress people without consequences.

    Although... Is she going to use it to undress Sam? I'm not sure Dan wants to go there. But it's kinda fun to imagine the reactions she, and him, could have to that.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mormegil View Post
    This is a really cool way to phrase this spell. Also, I'm sure everybody believes Sarah when she says she's not going to use that spell to undress people without consequences.

    Although... Is she going to use it to undress Sam? I'm not sure Dan wants to go there. But it's kinda fun to imagine the reactions she, and him, could have to that.
    That's barely even the tip of the iceberg of the Power Perversion Potential inherent in this spell. I doubt Dan will ever make more than vague oblique references to such things in comic because it would make the comic extremely family-unfriendly, but just last Friday Pandora was telling us about how Sarah could "make the people around [her] act out whatever [she] wants with an illusion of autonomy". As this is all in Sarah's head, backed by her imagination, there probably really are truly no limits on that "whatever" bit.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Yes, I'm fairly certain it was a reference to her shipping people, and the ability she now has of making them do thing in her head, to each other or possibly to her.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    That's barely even the tip of the iceberg of the Power Perversion Potential inherent in this spell. I doubt Dan will ever make more than vague oblique references to such things in comic because it would make the comic extremely family-unfriendly, but just last Friday Pandora was telling us about how Sarah could "make the people around [her] act out whatever [she] wants with an illusion of autonomy". As this is all in Sarah's head, backed by her imagination, there probably really are truly no limits on that "whatever" bit.
    I kind of want to know how far she is willing to go with it. Her friends are definitely fair territory for her imagination, so are they fair game for magically-enhanced imagination too? It feels different, but is it different from having a sexy dream?

    Also the range is kind of a problem. You usually want to imagine sexy things in private, but she can't get the full use out of this spell in her house (unless her neighbors are hot).
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    It's possible she could populate the house with images of the people she wants there, based on how she imagines them to be. These images might be wildly inaccurate, but they'd be wildly inaccurate in the ways she wanted them to be.

    As for a name for Americans from the US, why not Samites (based on the suggestion to work Sam in somewhere)?
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mormegil View Post
    I kind of want to know how far she is willing to go with it. Her friends are definitely fair territory for her imagination, so are they fair game for magically-enhanced imagination too? It feels different, but is it different from having a sexy dream?

    Also the range is kind of a problem. You usually want to imagine sexy things in private, but she can't get the full use out of this spell in her house (unless her neighbors are hot).
    Ya she can alter reality enough to make her fly and do other obviously impossible stuff. She may be able to "Snap her fingers" as Pandora said and just have them straight up appear magically. They might not look exactly like them or be slightly off but it should be accurate enough.

    Is this different from just a sexy dream though? It feels different just because this is intentional rather than incidental. I still would say this is probably not like morally reprehensible though. It just seems like it would be similar to thinking of a fantasy while alone. He imagination is just a lot more detailed than a regular one would be.
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