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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Actually, was it ever established that it was Pandora who empowered Greg and guided him, too? I quickly checked up that arc, but i might forget something that went before or after it. Based on current events, i do believe it more likely to have been Mister Fancy-White-Suit-Guy. He showed an inclination to directly "guide", where Pandora just marked People and watched what would happen (Sarah, Justin, Ted).
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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    You mean Dex, not Greg.

    Given Dex's amulet both has Pandora's Freaking Box on it, and he talked about "bringing an apocalypse", assuming anyone other than Pandora was to blame for his 'guidance' is frankly absurd.

    So often on this forum people make the argument "But what if the author is tricking us?!" and it never turns out that they are. Most webcomics are a lot more straightforward than people assume they are.
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  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    I'd say that Pandora is Chaotic Neutral, if you must use D&D alignments. She's mostly insane, and has very twisted morals, but in general isn't really all that bad of a person. Unless your death will help her plans, then she'll try and kill you.
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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    She's the uncaring sort of evil. Basically, it mostly seems Pandora simply does not give a flying **** about anyone she doesn't consider family, except as playthings. She will defend her family to the death, but if she has to get a random bystander to explode themselves for it (such as Dex), she isn't even going to blink at it.
    She doesn't seem to have evil motives, and she doesn't seem to enjoy suffering. Still, she can be ruthless and crush anyone standing in her way, even if doing so might be evil (Dex and Abraham). She also has quite a temper. Imagine if Magus had been living, would she then have killed him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adaon Nightwind View Post
    He showed an inclination to directly "guide", where Pandora just marked People and watched what would happen (Sarah, Justin, Ted).
    Pandora was (most likely) the one who marked Dex though. It seems unlikely that she would mark Dex and then some other Immortal would manipulate him into "bringing an apocalypse".

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Unless your death will help her plans, then she'll try and kill you.
    Isn't that kind of evil? I'd argue that it is, although if a character does a large amount of good (such as V from The Order of the Stick) then it may still balance out as neutral. Pandora doesn't seem to do all that much good though, from what I've seen, aside from marking Tom (I'm not sure if marking Tedd counts, even if she considers it "being nice").

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    Isn't that kind of evil? I'd argue that it is, although if a character does a large amount of good (such as V from The Order of the Stick) then it may still balance out as neutral. Pandora doesn't seem to do all that much good though, from what I've seen, aside from marking Tom (I'm not sure if marking Tedd counts, even if she considers it "being nice").
    Sure, but if her plans involved helping people, then she'd help you instead. And from what we've seen, her plans are either harmless, or having helping someone as their base. (Helping Magnus, helping Raven) and often have other good consequences (giving magic to everyone).

    But like you said, it is certainly evil to completely disregard the life of an individual if their death is needed for your plans, so that's why I say Neutral.
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  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    I think she's the kind of Neutral who sometimes does very Good things and sometimes does very Evil things, rather than the kind who does Neutral thing, if that makes sense. She's mostly motivated by Chaos, so Chaotic Neutral sounds right to me. She certainly doesn't go out of her way to hurt people, but she's fine doing it if it fits with the rest of her plans. She'll also help people if it leads to fun.

  7. - Top - End - #997
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    You are of course correct, Yuki Akuma, i meant Dex ^^ Sorry, i was tired.

    The Symbol for Pandora on the amulet might be an indication. After all, it is the name she has choosen. But the thing with the apocalypse is what actually puts me off, especially after seeing more of her and her interactions with the cast. I am thinking of this page:

    http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1278

    Would Pandora, who will above all else protect her family and those she considers to be family, really endanger Noah?

    Of course, she might not have planned for Noah to be there. But a plan that was meant to expose Magic to society at large seems strangely limited if the Fire Elementals are only summoned in a closed building with few witnesses, who are mostly already aware of it. (The Dragon Thing could have been a distraction made up on the spot during the fight.)

    Well, it is more likely that you are right. Time will tell, i think :)
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  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    That last panel seems more Evil than Neutral ("AND I WILL TEAR THEM TO SHREDS."). Is that even possible? I thought immortals couldn't attack each other.

  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    That last panel seems more Evil than Neutral ("AND I WILL TEAR THEM TO SHREDS."). Is that even possible? I thought immortals couldn't attack each other.
    This isn't the start of a war, it's a declaration of war by the party that is already under attack. I don't know where Pandora is on a morality scale, but this could even be good.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'd say that Pandora is Chaotic Neutral, if you must use D&D alignments. She's mostly insane, and has very twisted morals, but in general isn't really all that bad of a person. Unless your death will help her plans, then she'll try and kill you.
    Not giving a crap about murdering anyone who gets in your way or inconveniences you is not Neutral. It's pretty textbook Evil.

  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Pandora is Chaotic without question and about as Evil as you can get in EGS. I could see her developing to Chaotic Neutral within this story arc, though.
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  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Not giving a crap about murdering anyone who gets in your way or inconveniences you is not Neutral. It's pretty textbook Evil.
    Not inconveniences you or gets in her way, only if the plan calls for your death. We've seen how she reacts to unexpected obstacles. IE, unabashed joy. And when the Prophet confronted her, she made sure to warn him that no, he couldn't take her in a fight.

    There is a crucial difference between the two, and from everything else we've seen, she doesn't seem to want to hurt anyone unless that person has somehow harmed or threatened her family. But if she deems it necessary, she's fully capable of committing cold-blooded murder.
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  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Pandora is Chaotic without question and about as Evil as you can get in EGS. I could see her developing to Chaotic Neutral within this story arc, though.
    This is wrong. The spider vampire for one was more evil than Pandora, and maybe Not Tengu is too.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    This is wrong. The spider vampire for one was more evil than Pandora, and maybe Not Tengu is too.
    And Damien.

    Anyway, it's pretty safe to say that Pandora was the one who "guided" Dex. http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1276

  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    And Damien.

    Anyway, it's pretty safe to say that Pandora was the one who "guided" Dex. http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1276
    He also goes on to say that it wasn't convoluted enough to be one of her plans, and considering that Voltaire has some plan to deal with Pandora I can see where people might get the impression that it wasn't her plan. Honestly I expect that incident to come up again to at least try and clear up that confusion.
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  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Not inconveniences you or gets in her way, only if the plan calls for your death. We've seen how she reacts to unexpected obstacles. IE, unabashed joy. And when the Prophet confronted her, she made sure to warn him that no, he couldn't take her in a fight.

    There is a crucial difference between the two, and from everything else we've seen, she doesn't seem to want to hurt anyone unless that person has somehow harmed or threatened her family. But if she deems it necessary, she's fully capable of committing cold-blooded murder.
    Yeah. I think if she were Chaotic Evil, that it'd be far more clear. she is insane, but she isn't actively out to hurt and screw things up. she really seems to be trying to make things happen in a beneficial way for her own strange purposes, but without going full Evil here.

    she has been in fact been very careful in how she does all of this in some ways. Dan has said that she is so crazy that she could rationalize away anything as being within the "rules". like.....

    Pandora: I didn't kill him, I just empowered him until he exploded. Thats empowering, therefore within the rules

    Pandora: I didn't kill him, I guided something heavy to fall on him, thats guiding therefore within the rules.

    both could effectively make things more chaotic and unpredictable for her to delight over, but she doesn't. its completely semantic, but any good immortal who has to abide by the technicalities, like the Fae before them would come up with it. and yet she settles for actually empowering people for their own desires, instead of just finding ways to "empower" and "guide" people to cause random cataclysms for her own amusement.
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  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yeah. I think if she were Chaotic Evil, that it'd be far more clear. she is insane, but she isn't actively out to hurt and screw things up. she really seems to be trying to make things happen in a beneficial way for her own strange purposes, but without going full Evil here.

    she has been in fact been very careful in how she does all of this in some ways. Dan has said that she is so crazy that she could rationalize away anything as being within the "rules". like.....

    Pandora: I didn't kill him, I just empowered him until he exploded. Thats empowering, therefore within the rules

    Pandora: I didn't kill him, I guided something heavy to fall on him, thats guiding therefore within the rules.

    both could effectively make things more chaotic and unpredictable for her to delight over, but she doesn't. its completely semantic, but any good immortal who has to abide by the technicalities, like the Fae before them would come up with it. and yet she settles for actually empowering people for their own desires, instead of just finding ways to "empower" and "guide" people to cause random cataclysms for her own amusement.
    Nah, it's based on what the immortal in question believes - they have to be far gone enough to actually believe it counts. If they know they're using loopholes and technicalities, they probably won't be able to.
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  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

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    Direct? Voltaire isn't direct, this could be interesting.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Updaaate.

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    I love how Pandora comes across Sarah singing and basically decides 'screw it, I'mma sing too'.
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    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Sooo... clones then???

  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    I'm with Nanase on this one.
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  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    My guess?

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    I think Diana is an alternate dimension version of Susan. She was sent to this dimension, for whatever reason, as an orphan, and was adopted.
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  23. - Top - End - #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    My guess?

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    I think Diana is an alternate dimension version of Susan. She was sent to this dimension, for whatever reason, as an orphan, and was adopted.
    That was going to be my guess as well.

  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    It might be easier to keep tension higher about these developments if they weren't more than three years apart from each other.

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    I don't know, it all feels like defusing. Preparing for the reveal of twinness? Ah! Nope! Preparing for the epic battle to stop Pandora? Guess what, she's going to stop herself! Our heroes can go on doing side quests like playing cards, exposition, hunting large hogs and fighting off random aberrations that years later have had no consequence on the plot! Yay!
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  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Character development has a bearing on the plot.

    El Goonish Shive is about the characters, not the situation they're in.
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    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  26. - Top - End - #1016
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    Also if you go back to the splash at the beginning of the Arc, Magus is going to pay off here, and Since Sirleck is helping him his plan to kill Adrian is probably going to come into play.

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    1: Edward's Background checks aren't thorough enough. The Pompoms are absurdly rich. It is possible that Susan is adopted and someone in the government was bribed to forge records and destroy others, for some reason, to make it look like Susan

    2: Likewise, it's possible that Susan's mother did give birth to twins... but one of them was switched at birth with a child that um, didn't make it very far after coming out. Rich Mrs. Pompoms does the same as the above for reasons, destroying evidence that she gave birth to more than one child.

    3: Combines the above, Mrs. Pompoms has a still birth, adopts a child, and pays tohave records that the child ins't the one that grew inside her destroyed.

    4: Most plausible, Susan and Diane are half sisters. Susan's father is confirmed to be a cheater. Maybe he was cheating on Mrs. Pompoms all of Susan's life, and Diane is the child of one of his Mistresses?
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Also if you go back to the splash at the beginning of the Arc, Magus is going to pay off here, and Since Sirleck is helping him his plan to kill Adrian is probably going to come into play.

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    1: Edward's Background checks aren't thorough enough. The Pompoms are absurdly rich. It is possible that Susan is adopted and someone in the government was bribed to forge records and destroy others, for some reason, to make it look like Susan

    2: Likewise, it's possible that Susan's mother did give birth to twins... but one of them was switched at birth with a child that um, didn't make it very far after coming out. Rich Mrs. Pompoms does the same as the above for reasons, destroying evidence that she gave birth to more than one child.

    3: Combines the above, Mrs. Pompoms has a still birth, adopts a child, and pays tohave records that the child ins't the one that grew inside her destroyed.

    4: Most plausible, Susan and Diane are half sisters. Susan's father is confirmed to be a cheater. Maybe he was cheating on Mrs. Pompoms all of Susan's life, and Diane is the child of one of his Mistresses?
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    We have Young Jerry confirm that they are sisters so I am quite confident they are sisters in some manner. Half sisters could work but I am not sure the likelihood of them being identical by chance.

    My money is on some sort of flaw with Mr. Verres's background check.

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  28. - Top - End - #1018
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

    Spoiler: One other obvious option
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    Diane is a refugee from another reality. Pregnant mother flees something, ends up in this reality. She gives birth on schedule, but some situation or another separates mother and child and Diane is adopted into her family. Mother dead? Working to prepare for when whatever she fled reaches this reality? Returned home to ensure that would never happen?

    I really don't know. Mrs. Pompoms gives off a fearsome aura that reminds my of Nanase's mother, and I'm pretty sure her wealth and comfort are not thanks to alimony. She's probably just really, really successful or she's involved with the unnatural elements of the world. Either way, it's always felt weird to me how she's the only relative that's not treated as either clearly part of the masquerade (Nanase's mother, Tedd's parents) or clearly (and at times willfully) innocent muggles (Justin's uncle, the Dunkels, Sarah's family). Susan's mom has never been portrayed as either and I've found it unsettling before.

    As for being "Sisters", well. The original Sisters arc told of a guy getting turned into a girl, stealing a magic diamond to cure the condition, and accidentally creating his own distaff twin in the process who pretty much everyone just accepts as his sister. (Abe has trouble with it. Wonder if this is the arc he's supposed to return in.)

    Edit: Diane is a refugee, not a refuge. One e can mean so much...
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  29. - Top - End - #1019
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    I think Jerry said they were family, not necessarily sisters. But then again Susan's dad did sleep around at least once.

    Or, y'know, Diane is alternate reality Susan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
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    We have Young Jerry confirm that they are sisters so I am quite confident they are sisters in some manner. Half sisters could work but I am not sure the likelihood of them being identical by chance.
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    Super-duper unlikely. Think of all the siblings you know. How many pairs of them are as identical as Susan and Diane? Now realize that with different mothers, the children are less likely to be similar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
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    I think Jerry said they were family, not necessarily sisters.
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    Jerry said, when speaking to Diane, "I owe your sister a debt".


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    Alternate dimension shenanigans seem most likely at this juncture, but just to keep things interesting I'm going to guess Diane is an alternate Sarah.

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