Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

[Cheesegear]

It seems like there could be a lot of people taking the cheapest HQ unit and the cheapest troop unit to get access to a super-efficient Heavy Support or Elite unit?

Affirmative.

[Drasius]

...So you can have a full org chart of Space Marines and a full org chart of Eldar, they just can't be close to each other? Then what's the purpose of the Allied Detachment? Is it just that you need 1 less Troop choice, and don't get as many things you can put in it?

It seems like there could be a lot of people taking the cheapest HQ unit and the cheapest troop unit to get access to a super-efficient Heavy Support or Elite unit?

You can also ally marines with other marines, as long as they're not the same colour (chapter tactics). So if you were going to take 2 HQ and 3 troops anyway, enjoy your 4 heavy support slots.

You can also just run 2 force org charts and have double the everything.

[Voidhawk]

...So you can have a full org chart of Space Marines and a full org chart of Eldar, they just can't be close to each other? Then what's the purpose of the Allied Detachment? Is it just that you need 1 less Troop choice, and don't get as many things you can put in it?

It seems like there could be a lot of people taking the cheapest HQ unit and the cheapest troop unit to get access to a super-efficient Heavy Support or Elite unit?

Yes, but the point costs are the limiting factor. Even the cheapest HQ and Troops unit is a hefty tax for a single Heavy Support. More often you see Allies used to bring a HQ who is useful in their own right such as Eldar Farseers, Dark Eldar Archons, or Typhus.

The purpose of multiple Detachments is generally to let armies shore up their weaknesses, and adapt to an evolving metagame. Knights giving you trouble? A Necron Doombringer Flight slots into any army at all, costs 320pts and £50, and will happilly upgrade your anti-air/vehicle abilities. More importantly, it means you don't completely abandon playing because the army you have just can't compete with whatever the flavour-of-the-month is.

Oh yeah, and it encourages you to spend more on the hobby. GW isn't quite as incompetant as they seem. Some of the time.

[hamishspence]

Any more thoughts on the new Cult Mechanicus models, now there's good close-ups?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/...-closeups.html

[Eldan]

Electro-priests and the big robots are quite "meh", but I do like the tech priests and those track-things. For once, I don't hate GWs tendency to stick too many small details on their models.

Edit: the trackbot also has the cutest pair of arms I've ever seen on a bot.

[Drasius]

Don't like the electro priest, the dude with the pimp cane is rad, the other HQ is OK, the tracked dude I don't like that much despite thinking it would be him I liked the most and the big battle robot is slowly growing on me.

Overall, a bit disapointing since I thought the skitari models were all awesome bar the assassins (not the rust stalkers, the other ones).

The rules for the battle robot seem pretty cool. Give all the Str 6 AP3, camp in a ruin and activate pew pew mode, switch to guns FNP mode when they get too close for missiles cannons 6 twin linked str 6 ap3 on top of 6 more str 6 ap3 shots is pretty decent on a 3W T7 plastform. Not sure why the sudden hate for marines though, everything released lately has been designed as MEQ killers.

[Manticoran]

So for Tyranids, what's the ratio you put Devourers into Termagant squads? Seems like you probably want some, but definitely not all since you want to be able to soak casualties without losing them? Something like half probably seems about right?

[Eldan]

I put in two thirds devourers and that seems to work. I could also see the argument for one half.

[Requizen]

White Dwarf next weeks hint says "Scions of Nurgle". A new, plastic GUO to go with the Bloodthirster is fairly likely, but I do wonder if there'll be a Nurgle Daemonkin. I would be super pumped for it, to be honest.

[Cheesegear]

You can also just run 2 force org charts and have double the everything.

This is especially important for Orks, who, most competitive players see as needing 3 HQs - minimum - on the board to be even playable at any sort of serious event. That's why when events say that Detachment types are unique - i.e; you can't have two CADs - Orks typically have no chance against a competent opponent, and why new Ork players suffer badly. Orks are the fun, lol!random race, right? Well, a new player picks them up, players in the one-Detachment only, Escalation-style metas that cripple HQ selection, and then the new Ork player gets reamed, and decides that Orks are terrible.

Orks are not terrible. I can promise that. However, Orks get crippled by most arbitrary meta restrictions that you care to name. In low point metas as mentioned, and particularly in regards to the inability to field one of the best non-Forge World models in the game - Stompas. While Imperial Knights can do anything they want. Orks don't have Melta or Lance weapons, they pretty much need Stompas to compete at the higher points levels.

Oh yeah, and it encourages you to spend more on the hobby. GW isn't quite as incompetant as they seem. Some of the time.

The problem is, that if GW were actually competent, we'd hate them for it. So far, we've not seen any pay-to-win price models, and we haven't seen any models deliberately left out of Codecies to be put back in via Supplements. The only one we've seen is Deathleaper. Where was the Catachan Supplement immediately after Codex AM that put Marbo and Harker back in the game? Didn't happen. But if it had, imagine just how pissed off we'd be? Like, even more than the fact that Marbo and Harker were removed from the game in the first place.

But, look at the 'Imperial Allies' selection. If GW were actually serious about making bank, the recent Blood Angels and Space Wolves Codecies should be hamstrung, and the only way that Space Wolves and Blood Angels would be able to be playable under a competent GW was only if you added in Space Marine or AM Allies. That's not the case. Blood Angels isn't the most powerful book, but I consider it one of, if not the best Codex in the range. It could do with some more Ranged options, sure, but Blood Angels is an Assault-book, so that's what it does. Space Wolves is similar. What do you want to do? Okay. Here's all the units that do that thing. If I gave a **** about Space Wolves, I'd be really impressed. Instead, I'm in love with the Grey Knights book. No gimmicks. Just do the thing.

However, the fact that GW aren't nickel-and-diming us, and we don't hate them for it, probably indicates that they are actually pretty clever and know what's going on. After all, they did have a CEO-change a few months back.

[Turalisj]

Well, I have a friend who has all but stopped trying to build an Ork army because he doesn't want to get destroyed so much..... probably doesn't help that he played against my Necrons with a halfway put together army and got obliterated >.>

Any ideas on a budget ork army list? He's got something like 30 boyz, some nobz, bikers, two wagons, and three trukks.

[hamishspence]

This is especially important for Orks, who, most competitive players see as needing 3 HQs - minimum - on the board to be even playable at any sort of serious event. That's why when events say that Detachment types are unique - i.e; you can't have two CADs - Orks typically have no chance against a competent opponent, and why new Ork players suffer badly. Orks are the fun, lol!random race, right? Well, a new player picks them up, players in the one-Detachment only, Escalation-style metas that cripple HQ selection, and then the new Ork player gets reamed, and decides that Orks are terrible.

Orks are not terrible. I can promise that. However, Orks get crippled by most arbitrary meta restrictions that you care to name. In low point metas as mentioned, and particularly in regards to the inability to field one of the best non-Forge World models in the game - Stompas. While Imperial Knights can do anything they want. Orks don't have Melta or Lance weapons, they pretty much need Stompas to compete at the higher points levels.

Do you think that the Orkanaut (or possibly Morkanaut) deserves to be beefed up a bit - maybe to Imperial Knight levels? What other fixes could Orks do with?

[Wraith]

The problem is, that if GW were actually competent, we'd hate them for it. So far, we've not seen any pay-to-win price models, and we haven't seen any models deliberately left out of Codecies to be put back in via Supplements. The only one we've seen is Deathleaper. Where was the Catachan Supplement immediately after Codex AM that put Marbo and Harker back in the game? Didn't happen. But if it had, imagine just how pissed off we'd be? Like, even more than the fact that Marbo and Harker were removed from the game in the first place.

Actually, they kinda did. Grey Knights lost the Inquisitors and Assassins, now you have to buy them in TWO entirely different mini-codices. You could also argue that they tested the waters in a bigger faction with the "Mycetic Spore"/Tyrannocyte, but fortunately it's a Tyranid model so no one took all that much notice. Still, just imagine what could have happened if they'd tried the same thing with a more popular army?

In fact, I have to admit that this is exactly what I was expecting them to do with Blood Angels/Death Company and Dark Angels/Death- or Ravenwing. To their credit, they've had the good sense to only do small, reasonably justifiable examples and not plunge right into hacking apart their most popular core armies..... Yet?

[Cheesegear]

Any ideas on a budget ork army list?

Ask and you shall receive. Orks can be my next Building on a Budget army list. Unfortunately, I'm really busy over the weekend, so it's probably not going to happen until Monday, if not later - and I say that fully realising that I have a battle report against Ahriman/Cypher that I still haven't finished, which has been two weeks in the writing. But, short answer, yes. I have a lot of ideas on how to build a budget Ork list.

Do you think that the Orkanaut (or possibly Morkanaut) deserves to be beefed up a bit - maybe to Imperial Knight levels? What other fixes could Orks do with?

Having played against Orks for several weeks in a row, with Knights...

Ork Horde Detachment is a waste. Greenskin Hordes needs to read 'Every unit with 10 or more models in this Detachment gains the Hammer of Wrath special rule' STOP. Remove the part about needing 10 or more on the Charge dice, and you're good to go. I know, 'Ere We Go is meant to fix that, but even with EWG, you can still fail. Even with EWG, unless both of your dice roll 4s or higher, you can't get HoW, even with a re-roll. Example, two dice, one is a 3, the other is worse. Re-roll the 1-2, obviously. You re-rolled into a 6. Fantastic. Plus 3, still only equals 9. Way to fail.

Something in the book needs the Melta special rule. One of the Mek Gunz options needs to have the Lance special rule. Alternatively, any Strength roll on the Zzap Gun that is 8 or higher, gains the Lance special rule. Still random and luck-based, obviously. But it's Orks. When it goes right, it should go really right, not moderately okay. For example, rolling boxcars on the Shokk Attack Gun drops a Vortex - and a Large Blast Vortex at that. ****ing great! I rolled double-6s on my Shokk Attack Gun. Do I win, now? (Remembering that Vortecies don't go away)
If you roll S11+ on the Zzap Gun, you Gets Hot worse and you lose an HP. You are punished for rolling well, which shouldn't be the case, especially not with Orks.
Orks should fail spectacularly, and they should succeed spectacularly. The Fluff is pretty clear on that. When things go right for the Orks, worlds explode. When things go wrong, Orks explode. Orks should not be exploding when things go right. High risk, high reward. Not high risk, moderately-sort of-okay reward like the Zzap Gun.

The technology is there. GW has the Power. A Shokk Attack Gun rolls a Vortex, a Klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork) is Str-D. If a Zzap Gun rolls 11 or 12, why not make it Str-D instead of 'just' S10? It's not that broken, since you still have to roll To Hit, and what else have Orks got? Nothing. Basically, you need to take 30 Tankbustas, and get into Melee with a Knight - not the best plan.

Guns on all the planes need to be better. Across the board. Supa Shootas need to be S7, minimum.

Increase Morkanauts to 6HPs, increase their points cost by 100. Make them Super-Heavy. Make them Lords of War. Make Klaws of Gork (or possibly Mork) Str-D. That way, you could have the 350 Point, 6HP Super-Heavy. Or the ~800 Point, 12HP Super-Heavy. The lesser option is half as good as the better option which sounds about right. Imperial Knights are 370 Points, 6HPs. But have better WS, BS and I. Morkanauts can grab a Kustom Force Field for the normal points. Seems fair. Most Knight lists typically run 3 Knights. A Double-CAD Ork list is going to have two LoW slots, letting them run dual Morkanauts. Of course, if the Morkanauts were made Lords of War, there'd be the problem of the 611 Points limit (which only lets you have one 'naut at the ~350 price tag), or the 6-W/HP limit, which only lets you have one 'Naut with 6HPs regardless of how many Detachments you have - just like Wraithknights.

No idea how to save the Gorkanaut. It's garbage. More anti-Infantry in an already anti-Infantry army is not what Orks need.

Actually, they kinda did. Grey Knights lost the Inquisitors and Assassins

With Grey Knights, not really. The releases were what, 18 months apart? Assassins, on the other hand, should have been folded into Inquisition. But, that would have only meant re-printing the entirety of the Inquisition book, again, except now with Assassins in it. Mistakes have been made, but I'm not bothered about the separation of Grey Knights and Inquisition, it's a separation that makes sense.

[Drasius]

As a Battletech knights player, I'm not terribly impressed by the "buy 5 knights for $925 or you can't have this dataslate" business. Why is it limited to 100? There's no saving on buying 5 knights individually, and it's not like you've got some limited run on dataslates. I'd also love an upgrade sprue to give my 4 existing knights carapace weapons, but I guess I'll just have to convert some instead. Lost sales opportunity there.

Hopefully this codex lasts a bit longer than 1 year though.

ION: We've got a 3 per side, 3k per person apoc game coming up. I'll be taking along;

5 Imperial knights
2 Stormtalons w/Skyhammers
1 Stormraven
2 Plasma Obliterators (technically one is from another player)
2 Dominion squads each with Simulcra

2935

I'm guessing I'll fill out the remaining 65 points with a priest and the litanies to ensure auto passing my ignore cover tests on 1 squad. Leaves me 25 points for an inquisitor to make the other girls Ld 10. pair of inquisitors, with 5 servo skulls between them, because with that many blasts flying around, 1d6 scatter will be super handy, and Ld 10 is almost as good as automatically passing, right? I could also shave some points by taking an errant instead of a paladin (or whatever the new knights cost, I ordered a new knight and the codex today). We'll see if there's any good formations to be had with the new book.

My teammates will be toting 3 baneblades, 2 shadow swords and a Storm Eagle plus some sundry other guard and then last but not least, an odd collection of marines and orks, including a dread mob, big meks with KFF, chapter masters, librarians, ironclads, terminators and a pair of stormtalons.

Should be interesting.

[Wraith]

With Grey Knights, not really. The releases were what, 18 months apart? Assassins, on the other hand, should have been folded into Inquisition. But, that would have only meant re-printing the entirety of the Inquisition book, again, except now with Assassins in it. Mistakes have been made, but I'm not bothered about the separation of Grey Knights and Inquisition, it's a separation that makes sense.

I certainly agree with this - I vastly prefer Grey Knights to be Grey Knights and not "Whatever stuff we have that can't properly fit into Space Marines, Astra Militara and Sisters of Battle" from both a fluff and gaming point of view.

Even so, a reprint of Inquisition? It is, and has only ever been, available as digital media - the "reprinting" costs are vastly lower than a dead tree version, and Assassins are digital only, also. I cannot imagine that it would have been a greater burden of finance or labour to update Inquisition so as to include Assassins, than it was to publish an entirely new Assassins-only ebook as well.
The only reason that fits is that they were having players double-down on buying two books that could sensibly be one. The only reason that people haven't kicked up a fuss over it, is that Assassins have never been Pay To Win models and they can still get their grubby mits on a Coteaz-only detachment without having to buy a new book....

[Closet_Skeleton]

So, I have Orks and no idea how to make a good list.

Captain Badruck
AoBR warboss
10 Flash Gitz
5 Nobs with big choppas (I assume that's what the AoBR guys are supposed to have)
6 Deathcoptas, 3 metal 3 AoBR
5 Stormboyz (sound useless)
10 kommandos with power claw nob and 2 burnaz (so really 7 are just slugga boyz)
2 heavy shootas
5 shoota boyz
18 AoBR slugga boyz
11 slugga boyz I could take apart and turn into shoota boyz

which is about 1200 points

+ a lot of out of scale 2nd ed and Gorka morka models including some gretchin

I want to get these guys painted so I need to know if there's any conversion work to do first.

Is there any reason not to just make everyone ard boyz now they're not limited?

Storm Boyz are metal/plastic hybrids so it would be easier to shelve them or convert some other guys into Storm boyz.

I think I can Green tide at 500 or 1000 but have no idea really.

I was thinking of just converting most of the slugga boys into kommandos and using the Snikrott formation.

Some wartracks and about 2 trukks

[Cheesegear]

Even so, a reprint of Inquisition? It is, and has only ever been, available as digital media

By 'reprint', I mean, a new edition that you would pay money for. By 'reprint', I mean any new edition that makes the old one irrelevant.

Codex: Inquisition was November 2013, Grey Knights was September 2014. Okay, not 18 months, not even a year. I was way off. But I still don't see it as problematic - ten months is still a long time. The writing was on the wall for Grey Knights losing 'Inquisition units' for a long time. Rumour sites were saying, something like three months out, that if you hadn't already acquired a copy of the Inquisition Codex, then you should do so. However, these same rumour sites also swore up and down that there'd be a Commander Tycho/Death Company Supplement for Blood Angels - NEVER HAPPENED! Basically, there was a huge time gap. Codex: Inquisition was not 'Day 1 DLC', not even close.
You brought up Tyranids, earlier. Ditto. Tyranids came out January 2014, with Mycetic Spores removed. Shield of Baal: Leviathan didn't drop 'til November 2014, with all the models dropping about a month or two earlier. Were Tyrannocytes intentionally removed? Or did they legitimately not have models ready at the time of release? Did GW play the long game? I really don't know. It doesn't seem possible under the 5th Ed. regime, but, post-6th Ed., has seen a lot of shake-ups on GW's business front. So...Maybe? Maybe not?

Deathleaper had a model, was removed, and put back in later anyway.
Mycetic Spores did not have models at the time of Codex release, and Tyrannocytes were made, later.
The former is a ****-move and is yet to be pulled with anything else. The latter is...Murky, depending on your own personal bias and how pernicious you think GW is.

What would have been the heinous thing, is if, on the day that Grey Knights released, a 7th Ed. version of Inquisition came out, on the same day. Effectively forcing you to buy two books to use the same army that you used previously. But, as I said, people had ~10 months to acquire a copy of Inquisition, and didn't, even though the writing was on the wall. I think the real problem, is that Inquisition, as a stand-alone Codex, sucks. People didn't want Inquisition. For the time being, everything in Inquisition could be found in Grey Knights/5, and then when 7th Ed. rolled around, giving Troops units Objective Secured, whereas Inquisition had 'Scoring Elites' which didn't mean anything under the new 'everything Scores' rule of 7th Ed., so people still didn't buy Inquisition. So, basically what happened, is no-one wanted to buy Inquisition until they had to, and when they did, they also had to buy the Grey Knights book. Even though the releases were 10 months apart.

[peacenlove]

They deleted the Pariah from the Necrons, leaving us with meager, if any anti-psycker defense.

I am thinking on Judicator battalion along with Destroyer cult for Ap 2 fun. How many stalkers in the squadron do you suggest? Filled Praetorian squads?
Main opponents are Tyranids, GK, SW/BA allies and CSM.

[Squark]

Isn't the Judicator batallion only one Stalker?

Regarding Praetorians- They're I2 models with a 3+ save and no grenqdes. That's not exactly an ideal profile on a close combat unit. I'd stay away from the judicator battalion. If you want stalkers, get them in a Mephrit Dynasty Formation.

[peacenlove]

Isn't the Judicator batallion only one Stalker?

Its a unit of stalkers, and each can have 1-3 models.
I would really have a mobile, close combat unit or 2. Lychguard protecting Zandrekh (who steals rules and buffs them with warlord traits) and murdering everyone are a thing though.
Destroyer lord and 10-20 flayed ones is another, and cheap to boot.

[Squark]

If you want mobile close combat units, take wraiths. Close combat units need a 2+ save (With a 3+ invulnerable save and 4+ Reanimation Protocols, shield-bearing lychguard essentially have one) a high initiative, or a ton of models to absorb casualties. Praetorians don't have any of the above.

[Drasius]

It's not 2 sides of the same coin though. Praets kill things, while Wraiths win via atrittion. Unless the enemy has AP2 at initiative, praets are striking 1st with str 5 AP2 and are fast enough to probably get the charge, with the bonus of shooting more Str 5 AP2 into them beforehand and cost 28 points each. They are vanguard vets that pay ~5 ppm to get power axes that strike at I2, a str 5 ap2 pistol, T5 and a 5+++ that will usually be a 4+++. That's certainly not anything to sneeze at.

They're a fast strikeforce that will delete virtually any unit that isn't a monsterous creature, walker or flier. If you need to target/tarpit MC's or walkers in assault, then bring wraiths. But if you need to kill multiple units like bikes or similar, then the praets will do the job admirably. I'd even go so far as to say that a judicator battallion, canoptek harvest and a deathbringer flight could make a decent army on their own. Assault Necrons, the new meta.

[Turalisj]

Assaultcrons is.... something I'd have to try. It would certainly surprise a lot of people.

[Cheesegear]

They deleted the Pariah from the Necrons, leaving us with meager, if any anti-psycker defense.

Wasn't that like, two editions ago? Besides, Pariahs weren't gone, they were replaced by Lychguard w/ Warscythes. Same model, new name. If you wanted to keep using your Pariah models, as the newer Lychguard, there really isn't anything stopping you from doing so. Unless the Pariah models are significantly smaller than Lychguard models, and I don't know about it? I haven't seen a Pariah model in a long time - for good reason, the Lychguard look so good, why would you want old Pariah models!?
Saying that Pariahs and Lychguard aren't basically the same, is like saying that Mycetic Spores and Tyrannocytes are totally different.

Sly Marbo and Sergeant Harker are just gone. No replacement entries.

EDIT: That said, I, personally, wouldn't be opposed to seeing a Catachan Supplement now, 12 months down the track from the original Codex AM. There's no way that I - or anyone else - could be sure that GW was sitting on a Catachan Supplement for all this time, or had only just finished working on it yesterday, so I'd have to find a real good reason to be mad about something I don't even know about. Also similar to Inquisition/Grey Knights, spacing the releases so far apart also puts significantly less pressure on the wallet (at least, for those of us who have already bought Codex AM).

[Drasius]

Sly Marbo and Sergeant HarkerCaptain Al'Rahem are just gone. No replacement entries.

Fixed. We might wish Harker was gone, since 55 points for a rending heavy bolter might as well not exist in the codex for how effective he is. At least he's got a cool model.

[Trixie]

So far, we've not seen any pay-to-win price models, and we haven't seen any models deliberately left out of Codecies to be put back in via Supplements.

*cough* Terryn 100 limited dataslates worldwide gimmick *cough*

I don't know what would be worse, for it to turn out to be 'race-to-pay-to-win-pack' or 'you-gullible-idiot-worthless-rules-pack'. Frankly, when I saw it today I wanted to disbelieve, this is next level easily trouncing charging 50$ for different dust cover. And what really astonished me is 660 pounds price tag without even new IK Codex or any discount as freebie for absolutely massive purchase. In fact, you pay whole new full codex cost extra just to get that one little page...

As for models, look no further than to GK Codex. Forge World makes beautiful range of Razorbacks/Land Raiders/Flyers with Psycannons. In 5th edition, you could have taken Assault Cannon with psyammo and claim count as, since rules were extremely close. Now? After all options were castrated from 7th edition GK Codex, the only way to field them is to randomly throw darts at FW Supplements in vain attempt of finding latest, non obsolete book, with rules for relevant vehicle.

And to add insult to injury, literally every single popular thing GK had was crushed as well, either jumping massively in points or being totally gone from codex. The only ones who were spared were fans of Terminator and DK spam, kits being absolutely coincidentally most expensive, new boxes in GK mini range.

The releases were what, 18 months apart? Assassins, on the other hand, should have been folded into Inquisition. But, that would have only meant re-printing the entirety of the Inquisition book, again, except now with Assassins in it.

You mean, just like still brand new IK Codex wasn't invalidated this week, or how also new Codex Assassins wasn't invalidated by last WD with much better rules?

I wouldn't say there is any meaningful difference between splitting Codex GK into GK and Inquisition in 7th edition, or doing one of them a bit earlier. The end result is absolutely the same, you need 2 books where you only needed one earlier, just the grace period in which you scrambled to rethink suddenly invalidated part was slightly longer.

Mistakes have been made, but I'm not bothered about the separation of Grey Knights and Inquisition, it's a separation that makes sense.

I don't know if it made any sense.

Ok, if you wanted to split Inquistors, fine. Make them new book, sure, but from both fluff and game standpoint, GK really needed cheap HQ. Say special Malleus Inquisitor with different options than found in main Inquisition book, as well as cheap troop unit bringing to table something GK couldn't field - like meltas and AP 2 guns. Both 3rd and 5th edition of GK got that right, 7th edition one feels like castrated minidex in style of Tempestus where everything can be made using 1 box and you have glaring holes in army building that cannot be plugged in any way. Orks have problems? Hah.

Ok, let's assume intent was to make GK elite army, without chaff. Fine. But if so, why kill all feeling of eliteness? Why GK leaders are suddenly inept, statlines down across the board, points up, and Titan forges apparently lost ability to make psyammo and spare parts to psycannons? Becoming Grey Marines with bolters/AP 4 plasma pistols?

Why your only non-bulky HQ brings literally nothing to table while being more expensive than fully kiitted Chaos Lords and SM Captains? Why all HQs are so garbage the only okay option immediately jumps out as no-brainer (and to make things worse than in SM codex, Librarian has same statline as your generic GK veterans, making it feel even more underwhelming...).

Frankly, all GW needed was to put some thought into 'one-box-builds-all' units and try to differentiate them. Like veterans in AM codex can take different doctrines, GK could specialize in hunting of particular daemons. Purgators are fire support? You can buy Monster Hunters for fighting MC/FMC. Purifiers say crusader. Strike squads counter attack. Basically, what you could do already in old Codex with GK GM, making each squad more distinct. Now I look at four squads where only difference is single number here and there and the only thing I see for three of them is 'why bother'. It's literally blander than 5th edition Sisters Codex was.

[Cheesegear]

*cough* Terryn 100 limited dataslates worldwide gimmick *cough*

Eh. Until I actually see it, and it's proven to be effective, then I really don't care. Especially if it's unusable in 1850 or under, which is probably likely.

I don't know what would be worse, for it to turn out to be 'race-to-pay-to-win-pack' or 'you-gullible-idiot-worthless-rules-pack'.

I lean strongly towards the latter. Especially if, there's an actual outcry of how exclusivity ruins the hobby (which it does), the Dataslate will either end up being buyable, as with any Dataslate, or will get released for free on the Warhammer App (and then pirated forever), like the ALF.

As for models, look no further than to GK Codex. Forge World makes beautiful range of Razorbacks/Land Raiders/Flyers with Psycannons. In 5th edition, you could have taken Assault Cannon with psyammo and claim count as, since rules were extremely close. Now? After all options were castrated from 7th edition GK Codex, the only way to field them is to randomly throw darts at FW Supplements in vain attempt of finding latest, non obsolete book, with rules for relevant vehicle.

I'm not going to debate you on this one. GW is not responsible for Forge World models.

And to add insult to injury, literally every single popular thing GK had was crushed as well

Because GKs were broke. Why are Blood Angels Assault Marines Fast Attack now? Why are Death Company Elites?
Also, there's always Unbound. If your meta bans Unbound, that's not actually GW's fault.

You mean, just like still brand new IK Codex wasn't invalidated this week, or how also new Codex Assassins wasn't invalidated by last WD with much better rules?

I find it really hard to care. Microsoft no longer supports Windows XP. Apple no longer supports a whole bunch of stuff. Various video game devs shut down servers for old games in favour of servers for new ones.

Is GW not allowed to do proper business because it's a company for toy soldiers?

I wouldn't say there is any meaningful difference between splitting Codex GK into GK and Inquisition in 7th edition, or doing one of them a bit earlier.

By 'a bit', you mean ~10 months, right? There absolutely is a difference, and the 'meaningful' difference is in economics.

Pay $80 now, or pay $40 now, and another $40 later. How come people buy new phones in plans, instead of buying them outright? What's the point in renting a house, when you can straight up just buy a house? Because some people can't afford upfront costs. If you had 10 months to get your stuff together - and you did, BTW - but didn't, that's a world of difference..

Are you really upset over buying a single extra book in a ten month period? If you are, and acquiring Codex: Inquisition somehow breaks your bank account...There are much cheaper hobbies out there. However, if you've had your head in the sand, and didn't realise that Grey Knights were obviously going to lose Inquisition units, then yes. You might be upset to learn that Grey Knights 'suddenly' lost a whole bunch of units, and now you need to buy an extra book, on the same day, or same week, or - if you're really strapped - same month. I understand that. But, that's not what people are upset by.

GK really needed cheap HQ.

They don't need anything, except for the ability to remove opposing models from the board. Which they have.

7th edition one feels like castrated minidex in style of Tempestus where everything can be made using 1 box and you have glaring holes in army building that cannot be plugged in any way. Orks have problems? Hah.

Tempestus is a very strong book. No idea what you're talking about. Unless you're also saying that Grey Knights is also a very strong book, in which case I agree. But I don't think that's what you're saying.

Like veterans in AM codex can take different doctrines

But two doctrines suck. Giving you only one real choice. Double standard? Or have you not even played the game in a very long time?

You can buy Monster Hunters for fighting MC/FMC.

I don't understand the problem. You know 7th Ed. gives you unlimited Detachments, right? 7th Ed. is not 6th Ed. with binary Detachments. You can have anything you want, anytime you want - unless your meta arbitrarily bans things which isn't GW's fault. I use three Detachments, minimum. 7th Ed. allows you to do anything you want, up to and including disregarding FOCs altogether. If you're under the assumption that everything needs to be in one book, for you to be able to play your army...Well, you may be living in 5th Ed., not even 6th - because even 6th had Allies.

[Vaz]

You can also ally marines with other marines, as long as they're not the same colour (chapter tactics). So if you were going to take 2 HQ and 3 troops anyway, enjoy your 4 heavy support slots.

You can also just run 2 force org charts and have double the everything.

Incorrect, you can take multiple CAD. Regardless of chapter tactics. Bear in mind that double FoC died after 6th, with FoC's replaced by Detachments (which have FoC's), Formations, Dataslates, and "host" style Detachments.

[Manticoran]

...Color me super confused.

Ok, so as a Tyranid player, I have a bunch of stuff. From what I understand, I have a couple options? Unlike a bunch of other factions, Tyranids don't come with the weird Necron formations or anything, and as such I only have to worry about if a unit is a HQ, Troops, Elite, Fast Attack, or Heavy Support. I can take 1-2 HQs, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Elite/FA/HS as many times as I want, and can also choose to take allies(understanding that they suffer from the 'Come The Apocalypse' restrictions/drawbacks) in groups of 1-1 HQ, 1-2 Troops, 0-1 Elite/FA/HS.

If I do not follow these restrictions, then the enemy gets to score on objectives that we both hold and I do not for the sets of units that do not fit on both groups? Doesn't this mean I can take any number of Fast Attack, Elite, HQ, or Heavy Support that I want to, since they can't score anyway, and Tyranids automatically get the "Ideal Mission Commander" benefit just for being Tyranids?

Or that if I want to take allies that are NOT Troops, there's no reason to take an HQ or Troops from the list unless I want the Troops to be able to score? So technically I could take a LRuss from the... Astra Militarum looks like what Imperial Guard have turned into... and put it in my Army and outside of the "Come the Apocalypse" problems there are no issues?

Coming from the very restricted FoCs, you can see why this amount of openness in Army builds is super exciting/terrifying/confusing to me. Also means my dreams of putting together a Genestealer Cult army might finally come to fruition!