Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

[Turalisj]

Question on Rending - Does a roll of 6 on armor penetration auto-pen?

[Volthawk]

Question on Rending - Does a roll of 6 on armor penetration auto-pen?

Nope, you get an extra d3 on the penetration roll and it doesn't count as AP2. So it gives a little edge to your attempts, but it doesn't turn any unit with rending into a tank-killer automatically.

[Voidhawk]

Question on Rending - Does a roll of 6 on armor penetration auto-pen?

No. You roll an additional d3, and add that to the 6 you rolled and the weapon's strength to get the penetration value. It is quite possible to fail to glance AV14 on a rend, for instance if the weapon is Str6 and you roll a 1 on the d3.

[Drasius]

Also, it looks like an Ultramarines vs Chaos supplement is inbound. Million point formations ahoy.

Interesting times. Some of those are broken as hell (I'm looking at you Spear of Sicarius!), but then you're usually talking apoc levels of points to field, so I guess it won't matter.

All formations are here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...gn-blood-oath/ for those interested.

Speaking of Apoc, a change in roster has put a stop to my participation in our stores Apoc tournament. This makes me sad. Hopefully my knights will earn a titan kill marking or two in one of my team-mates hands though.

[Grim Portent]

Interesting times. Some of those are broken as hell (I'm looking at you Spear of Sicarius!), but then you're usually talking apoc levels of points to field, so I guess it won't matter.

All formations are here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...gn-blood-oath/ for those interested.

That Fist of Khorne formation both pleases and annoys me, it's something Khorne has needed for ages, but of all the things to give us as a formation transport why a Kharybdis? It's 260 points on top of 20 Berzerkers, you could field a baneblade with upgrades for that kind of points! But then at the same time charging 20 berzerkers first turn without risk of deep strike mishap is fantastic!

It really should have been a Dreadclaw + MSU-or-more of Berzerkers.

Or they could just give us a non-crappy drop pod.

[thedavo]

Wow, that Khorne formation is fun. I know what my next FW purchase is going to be.

[thedavo]

That Fist of Khorne formation both pleases and annoys me, it's something Khorne has needed for ages, but of all the things to give us as a formation transport why a Kharybdis? It's 260 points on top of 20 Berzerkers, you could field a baneblade with upgrades for that kind of points! But then at the same time charging 20 berzerkers first turn without risk of deep strike mishap is fantastic!

It really should have been a Dreadclaw + MSU-or-more of Berzerkers.

Or they could just give us a non-crappy drop pod.

On the plus side, everything it crashes into takes a Strength D AP1 hit, and gives you a four hull point (immobile) vehicle in your opponents DZ.

[Grim Portent]

On the plus side, everything it crashes into takes a Strength D AP1 hit, and gives you a four hull point (immobile) vehicle in your opponents DZ.

Unless it smacks into infantry or terrain, in which case it just moves off them.

Still, slamming a transport to death and then assaulting the guys who were in it could be fun.

That price tag is nasty though, both in points and money.

[thedavo]

Unless it smacks into infantry or terrain, in which case it just moves off them.

Still, slamming a transport to death and then assaulting the guys who were in it could be fun.

That price tag is nasty though, both in points and money.

It also does nothing to MCs/GCs, so is hopeless against Nids.

[Eldan]

Bit of a debate at my local shop, we were hoping that someone could have a look at the English rules text for us. The german is... well, it's a GW translation.

Harlequins have a piece of equipment that gives them hammer of wrath. Now, the language isn't very clear. It could be either "1d3 automatic hits", or "1d3 additional automatic hits", which some at our shop read as a total of 1d3+1 automatic S6 hits on impact.

Which reading seems correct?

[peacenlove]

Embrace of Death: A model equipped with a Harlequin’s Embrace has the Hammer of Wrath special rule, but makes D3 Hammer of Wrath Attacks that hit automatically and are resolved at Strength 6.

It seems that there are d3 instead of 1 Hammer of wraths, and are resolved at str 6 instead of the wielder's strength.

[Grim Portent]

Hang on, does the Fist of Khorne being a Daemonkin only formation mean Daemonkin arguably get the chaos drop pods?

If so then that's well worth knowing even without FW's say so.

Though as far as I can tell GW and FW seem to think of Daemonkin as being both Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons faction rather than a faction unto itself in some ways.

[Requizen]

Is there any clear information on Chaos Knights? Are they actually going to be a thing, with rules? I saw the model and was excited, but some people seem to be saying that it's just going to be a setpiece/conversion kit, but then some places are talking about a Chaos Knight faction.

Mine is still sitting in a box and I kind of would freaking love to convert it and run it next to my Daemons.

I found out on Thursday just how badly TWC hurt. 1850pt (well, 1841pt actually, coincidentally we both ended up with 9pts unspent!) Space Wolves vs Necrons match. I yielded at the end of turn 4, but managed to tarpit his TWC for a good three turns with sword-n-board Lychguard, but once those went down my army was plowed through.

Were they just Lychguard or a real 'Star? Orikanstar with Zahndrekh giving Fearless shouldn't really worry about TWC that much unless the dice were screwing with you.

[Turalisj]

Were they just Lychguard or a real 'Star? Orikanstar with Zahndrekh giving Fearless shouldn't really worry about TWC that much unless the dice were screwing with you.

Just Lychguard. Orikan has been sold out for months now on the GW website.

[Cheesegear]

Had a nice game against Khorne Daemonkin over the weekend. BatRep up...Sometime.

[Requizen]

Just Lychguard. Orikan has been sold out for months now on the GW website.

Ah, quite understandable. I got mine last edition for a silly Tremorcron list, back when that still worked. Yeah, he really changes that unit once you have him.

TWC really needs something solid to tie them up. A 20 man blob of Decurion Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh can do it nicely (4+++ with Fearless and lots of attacks), but yeah Shieldguard are really the best way to do it. They're just my favorite freaking unit it the codex lately.

Had a nice game against Khorne Daemonkin over the weekend. BatRep up...Sometime.

"Soon"(tm)

[Turalisj]

10 SnB Lychguard with an Overlord who has a phylactery, phase shifter, and voidreaper vs 5 TWC. Declared a challenge and tied up the whole group for several turns.

But my main mess up was thinking I could bring 20 warriors in from reserves with my monolith. The way terrain was set up and how deployment happened, I didn't have enough room for all of my stuff on the table.

[Cheesegear]

Building on a Budget: Blood Angels

Blood Angels have been a fan favourite for a long time. No, really. A long time. Sanguinius was the 'best' Primarch, died soloing against Horus, and in his wake left an entire Chapter of Mary Sues who are supposedly a 'doomed' Chapter, yet keep managing to not be dead, despite nearly going extinct three times, all while gorgeous and having flowing blonde hair. They're pretty much the best - even better than Ultramarines! But, aside from that, the Blood Angels really do have some cool imagery going for them. Are you in? Of course you're in. Everyone loves space vampires - even though they're not vampires and have said so like a dozen times.

Let's recap our rules for BoaB.
Rule #1; The goal is to get to 1850 as cheaply as possible, while
Rule #2; Not being bad.

Spoiler

Show

(0.16) (W) Mephiston - 175 Points

Well, that was quick. Mephiston's greatest disadvantage is that he doesn't have an Invulnerable save. But, that's okay. Sanguinary, Divination and Pyromancy all have WC1 Powers that give you an Invulnerable save, you just have to be lucky enough to roll it. Biomancy is also strong, with Iron Arm and Endurance, but, again, you need to be praying to RNGesus if you want those Powers. Either way, Divination is generally pretty strong even if you don't roll the Invulnerable save. But, in the event that you don't get the Powers that you need, you'll need a retinue unit for Mephiston to go in, but, that's not unusual at all.

Deathstorm; It's probably worth just sticking with Captain Karlaen, his Warlord Trait is pretty strong. But Karlaen is only 160 Points, so you're going to have to make up those 15 Points, somewhere.

Troops, is a Tactical Squad. Since Scouts are coming in at 0.80, which is really bad. But, the question is, what kind of Tactical Squad? The Blood Angels' Tactical Squad box costs a little bit extra than the standard Space Marine kit, and for your efforts, the BA kit gives you a Heavy Flamer or Heavy Bolter. Heavy Bolters...Suck. Heavy Flamers are very nice, but, Drop Pods, being cheap Vehicles, are 1.57, and that's really bad if you're trying to save money - which you are. Then again, all of your Angels can move forwards because they have Furious Charge, and 3+ Armour, and both kits come with a Power Sword for your Sergeant. The biggest difference between the two kits, is, obviously, the shoulder pads, and, the vanilla kit comes with a Missile Launcher. Remembering that the BA kit costs a tiny bit extra.

(0.36) Tactical Squad (x10); Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma - 180 Points
(0.40) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Combi-Melta - 170 Points

What a difference $3 and 10 Points makes!? But, if you ask me, being Blood Angels, and then pretending to play Ultramarines is really, really lame. So, let's run face-first into our opponent and throw Power Swords and Inferno Pistols on our Sergeants.

(0.36) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points

That's better. Oh, it's also 1850. So we'll need four of those.

(0.36) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points
(0.36) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points
(0.36) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points

Deathstorm; With Karlaen, you have +15 Points. You can swap one of those Tactical Squads for Raphen's Death Company, which costs 210 Points, and that puts you at -5 Points.

Remembering that we still have a Mephiston, who isn't always going to have an Invulnerable save and doesn't know what to do with himself when bullets come flying his way.

(0.33) Terminator Assault Squad (x5); Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 225 Points

Now, if you actually clicked the above link that took you to the Ultramarines BoaB list, you might want to include a Land Raider, right about now. Unfortunately, you're not Ultramarines, you're Blood Angels, and you just don't have the same tools that they do. For starters, you don't get Stormtalons. So what're you going to use to shoot Fliers and FMCs? Devastators with Flakk Missiles? Please. What are you, the worst Blood Angels player ever?

Deathstorm; You have Squad Alphaeus instead, putting you back to +5 Points

(0.55) Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

(W) Mephiston - 175 Points

Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword - 190 Points

Terminator Assault Squad (x5); Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 225 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

Total: 1360 Points
For a core list, it's pretty strong, and gives you 500 Points to play with. The cheapest thing in your list (so far), are Termintators. So, if you wanted to run 10 more Terminators with Hammers and Storm Shields (450 Points), you probably could. But, Terminator boxes are kind of expensive, and you can save more money by taking better stuff. Besides, now you have two Star Units so your opponent is going to have to split their fire.

(0.13) Command Dante - 220 Points
(0.30) Sanguinary Guard (x5); Inferno Pistol, x2 Axes, Power Fist - 185 Points

1765. Getting close. Well, considering you've got a crap ton of Marines, Charging forwards, not being behind Cover, you're going to have to make that count.

(0.46) Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs - 65 Points

Now your Terminators - and Mephiston - get FNP on top of their Invulnerable save. 1830. Perfect. Four sets of Melta Bombs on your Tactical Sergeants.

Deathstorm; Put a Teleport Homer somewhere for 10 Points, and have Karlaen and Terminators land on it.

Spoiler: Blood Angels, CAD

Show

(0.46) Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs - 65 Points
(0.16) Mephiston - 175 Points

(0.35) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points
(0.35) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points
(0.35) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points
(0.35) Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points

(0.30) Sanguinary Guard (x5); Inferno Pistol, x2 Axes, Power Fist - 185 Points
(0.33) Terminator Assault Squad (x5); Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 225 Points

(0.55) Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

(0.13) (W) Command Dante - 220 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Just remember your ABCs.
A. Always. B. Be. C. Charging.

$598 AUD. Cost-efficiency of 0.32. So, that's happening. Blood Angels is one of the best armies in the game for people on a budget, and has some of the best background of any Space Marines Chapter that there is. If you happened to grab Deathstorm while it was on the shelves, well, you got a bunch of dice and a rulebook. The list doesn't change that much, since the good units are still going to be good and prices of things not in Deathstorm don't change.

Spoiler: Deathstorm

Show

Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs, Teleport Homer - 75 Points
Captain Karlaen - 160 Points (Deathstorm)

Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs - 195 Points
Raphen's Death Company - 210 Points (Deathstorm)

Sanguinary Guard (x5); Inferno Pistol, x2 Axes, Power Fist - 185 Points
Squad Alphaeus - 215 Points (Deathstorm)

Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

(W) Command Dante - 220 Points

Total: 1850 Points

No idea what you're supposed to do with Cassor the Damned. He's a Dreadnought, so he flies in the back of the Stormraven very easily. To do that, drop one of the Tactical Squads...Then you have 50 Points to make up somewhere else. I mean, if you want to spend some coin, it is absolutely worth getting a Drop Pod in the Fast slot. Since it's not a Dedicated Transport, you decide what goes in it during Deployment. You want a Tactical Squad blowing Melta holes in something? Fine. You want your five Terminators threatening your opponent's DZ? Done. Hell, you could even put Cassor in the Drop Pod if you really wanted to.

[Selpharia]

So, forgive a stupid question from someone very new, but evebnn with the very strong new Eldar, I'm having a really hard time figuring out how on earth I'm supposed to beat the Necron Decurion detachment and its 4+ reanimate on most things, without just building an entire army out of the Str D, which goes against my wish to run a more aspect-heavy list. I'm not sure how to get a decent volume of low-enough AP shots into the things to kill them very quickly, even at low points with just a 5+ RP, so I have no idea how I'm going to deal with more. Doom seems like an amazing help, but getting it as a power or not is random, and the Dice like to give me Executioner and Will of Asuryan instead of anything useful. Other than impractical amounts of Str D weapons, is there anything I'm missing? Maybe Monofilament?

[Caxton]

So, forgive a stupid question from someone very new, but evebnn with the very strong new Eldar, I'm having a really hard time figuring out how on earth I'm supposed to beat the Necron Decurion detachment and its 4+ reanimate on most things, without just building an entire army out of the Str D, which goes against my wish to run a more aspect-heavy list. I'm not sure how to get a decent volume of low-enough AP shots into the things to kill them very quickly, even at low points with just a 5+ RP, so I have no idea how I'm going to deal with more. Doom seems like an amazing help, but getting it as a power or not is random, and the Dice like to give me Executioner and Will of Asuryan instead of anything useful. Other than impractical amounts of Str D weapons, is there anything I'm missing? Maybe Monofilament?

Melee. Necrons may be tough as nails, but they generally lack morale immunity like andtheyshallknownofear or the like. Beat them in melee by enough to drag down that 10 leadership, and they will disappear. That said, the Wraiths and Lychguard will put a crimp in that plan, but Eldar have more answers to that kind of stuff than anybody.

[Turalisj]

Yeah, I've found that putting out lots of Str8+ attacks and lots of melee really hurts my Necrons.

*grumblegrumble*stupid space wolves*grumble*

[Selpharia]

Melee. Necrons may be tough as nails, but they generally lack morale immunity like andtheyshallknownofear or the like. Beat them in melee by enough to drag down that 10 leadership, and they will disappear. That said, the Wraiths and Lychguard will put a crimp in that plan, but Eldar have more answers to that kind of stuff than anybody.

The problem is actually beating them by that much, and not getting my T3 faces pounded in. I figured Banshees would be ideal, only to watch the skellies shrug off an 8 banshee + exarch charge and actually force the banshees to fall back and be shot to death in response. I know that's not a usual result, but it's terrifying. Also, the only S8 melee I have would be a bit from wtaithlords, so I don't think that works.

[Requizen]

Melee. Necrons may be tough as nails, but they generally lack morale immunity like andtheyshallknownofear or the like. Beat them in melee by enough to drag down that 10 leadership, and they will disappear. That said, the Wraiths and Lychguard will put a crimp in that plan, but Eldar have more answers to that kind of stuff than anybody.

Yep yep. You don't think about morale with a LD10 book, but the second you lose combat it becomes bloody apparent the difference between LD10 and Fearless.

There's a big difference between Necron Assault units and Necron Shooting units, though. Assault units like Flayed Ones, Wraiths, or Lychguard aren't going to get beaten very easily. Even Banshees I wouldn't be overly worried about with them. Well, Flayed Ones might take a beating, but that's kind of their job and they'll give as good as they get. Scorpions, Banshees, and the like can wipe Immortals, Warriors, Destroyers, etc, so it's about target priority, much like the entire rest of the game.

Eldar most scare my Necrons with their mobility. My Tomb Blades, Wraiths, and Scarabs are mobile, but if you take the Craftworld Warhost, your entire army basically has a 12" move and can shoot! That's awesome. The amount of board control it gives is really second to none, and can make it really hard for Necrons to do what they want. You can stay out of threat ranges or bumrush things that seemed far away. Without resorting to lots of Night Scythes and Ghost Arks, Necrons are more or less footslogging at a lowish speed for most of the army.

Eldar can abuse this by holding most of the board and forcing the Necrons to dance to their tune, and slip away when the robots get too close.

[Turalisj]

I notice that I can scare people away from getting too close to my warriors... with some nice heavy support from Anni-barges and doom-arks. With them firing ahead of the rest of the army, you can give some nice support in the form of forcing someone to continue hugging cover.

[Cheesegear]

Yep yep. You don't think about morale with a LD10 book, but the second you lose combat it becomes bloody apparent the difference between LD10 and Fearless.

Nemesor Zhandrekh approves this message. It's commonly known that against a 'real' Assault unit, Lychguard don't do anything, since their AP3 weapons bounce off of 2+ Armour and/or models with Invulnerable saves and/or FNP. It's not uncommon for Lychgard to lose combat by one or two - but never more than that! - since they don't do damage. However, Zhandrekh negates this problem with his Warlord Trait, and the other half of Zealot lets the Lychguard hit ever so slightly harder.

I'm pretty sure it was Caxton (?) who once asked me if I thought Fearless was really needed on Ld10 models. On a Melee unit? Absolutely. Typically, a Ld10 'shooty' unit that fails its Morale check will Fall Back, and then Regroups next turn - providing it can regroup. A Melee unit - that doesn't have ATSKNF - that fails its Morale check, gets Swept and removed from the board.

[Requizen]

Nemesor Zhandrekh approves this message. It's commonly known that against a 'real' Assault unit, Lychguard don't do anything, since their AP3 weapons bounce off of 2+ Armour and/or models with Invulnerable saves and/or FNP. It's not uncommon for Lychgard to lose combat by one or two - but never more than that! - since they don't do damage. However, Zhandrekh negates this problem with his Warlord Trait, and the other half of Zealot lets the Lychguard hit ever so slightly harder.

I'm pretty sure it was Caxton (?) who once asked me if I thought Fearless was really needed on Ld10 models. On a Melee unit? Absolutely. Typically, a Ld10 'shooty' unit that fails its Morale check will Fall Back, and then Regroups next turn - providing it can regroup. A Melee unit - that doesn't have ATSKNF - that fails its Morale check, gets Swept and removed from the board.

Especially at I2 like Necrons. I can't remember the last time any of my Necron units didn't get swept after losing unless the opponent was Slow and Purposeful or something.

[Caxton]

Nemesor Zhandrekh approves this message. It's commonly known that against a 'real' Assault unit, Lychguard don't do anything, since their AP3 weapons bounce off of 2+ Armour and/or models with Invulnerable saves and/or FNP. It's not uncommon for Lychgard to lose combat by one or two - but never more than that! - since they don't do damage. However, Zhandrekh negates this problem with his Warlord Trait, and the other half of Zealot lets the Lychguard hit ever so slightly harder.

I'm pretty sure it was Caxton (?) who once asked me if I thought Fearless was really needed on Ld10 models. On a Melee unit? Absolutely. Typically, a Ld10 'shooty' unit that fails its Morale check will Fall Back, and then Regroups next turn - providing it can regroup. A Melee unit - that doesn't have ATSKNF - that fails its Morale check, gets Swept and removed from the board.

Yeah that was me. We were specifically discussing the Oriikanstar though. On normal Cron units, I can see fearless being a nice get, but as you say the star is unlikely to lose by more than one or two. Obviously Fearless is a benefit, but is it a benefit worth the price?

At any rate Banshees are probably the wrong way to go. I'm not terribly familiar with newdar, but I think Striking Scorpions have power fist access.

[Closet_Skeleton]

S6 powerfists. Not really worth losing I5 or 6 for in my opinion. They're AP2 but when you have pseudo rending basic guns why are you trying to kill AP2 in melee?

[Requizen]

Yeah that was me. We were specifically discussing the Oriikanstar though. On normal Cron units, I can see fearless being a nice get, but as you say the star is unlikely to lose by more than one or two. Obviously Fearless is a benefit, but is it a benefit worth the price?

Yes. 100% yes it's worth it.

Think about it this way: if you fail leadership in any other phase, you just run away and then regroup next turn. No harm no foul, easy regroup with LD10.

When you lose in Assault to anything with a decent Initiative, failing that Leadership means the unit is gone. No running away to regroup, no just going back next turn. If you fail to do a wound and then lose a single Lychguard, and then fail your Morale? The rest of the squad is dead, and so are any ICs attached to it.

That's a big deal. Like Cheese said, you're going to come up to things that have a 2+, or an invuln save, and then Lychguard aren't going to run roughshod through them. Or you're going to get bogged down by a bunch of units charging you at once and be forced to make so many saves that you lose. Or something. Fearless or any equivalent is so, so useful for Assault that it's not even funny.

I mean yeah, Lychguard are amazing at fighting and win lots of things. But you only need to get your expensive deathball destroyed by Morale failures once to truly realize the difference it makes.

[ZeltArruin]

S6 powerfists. Not really worth losing I5 or 6 for in my opinion. They're AP2 but when you have pseudo rending basic guns why are you trying to kill AP2 in melee?

Pretty sure Scorpion Claws are still not Unwieldy.