[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)

[Vhaidara]

So, I think I have capture the essence of each initiator class in a phrase
Stalker: I know 4 dozen ways to kill you, with my bare hands. And that's without going below the shoulders.
Warder: Get behind me!
Warlord: Hey guys! Watch this!
Harbinger: I will make you wish you were dead.
Zealot: We stand as one!
Mystic: I AM magic.
Pharaoh: BOW BEFORE ME!

[Taveena]

This might be an odd suggestion, but could it apply to Reflex saves as well? I'm not sure it'd add much, but the fluff is rather suited.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, I think I have capture the essence of each initiator class in a phrase
Stalker: I know 4 dozen ways to kill you, with my bare hands. And that's without going below the shoulders.
Warder: Get behind me!
Warlord: Hey guys! Watch this!
Harbinger: I will make you wish you were dead.
Zealot: We stand as one!
Mystic: I AM magic.
Pharaoh: BOW BEFORE ME!

Not enough moping in the harbinger sentence.

EDIT: I now want to play a redneck warlord who's catchphrase is "Hold My Beer."

[AGrinningCat]

Mithril Current is about speed, right? What if the 9th level was a free action?

[Taveena]

Then it would only be usable on your turn.

[AGrinningCat]

Then it would only be usable on your turn.

With the same clause as talking. A no-action

[Elricaltovilla]

Mithril Current is about speed, right? What if the 9th level was a free action?

No. No way, definitely not. With the original Mithral Current 9th, the ability to tack on a free full attack action against a single creature with a massive damage bonus would be way too much. The new one, it wouldn't make much difference other than messing with the established conventions of the maneuver system and potentially opening up a can of worms if Paizo put out a FAQ that said free actions can only be taken on your turn. There are rules for immediate actions that are unlikely to change, and I think it would be best to stick with something solid like that.

[Taveena]

SO HERE'S AN ODD THING TO ARGUE FOR

But I feel like Mithral Current's maneuvers with Close range should STILL be extraordinary abilities, partly because I firmly agree with 3.5e's stance that 'you can have abilities that aren't physically possible, but are still not magical', because there's a satisfying imagery in being able to draw your sword and have the slice extend beyond your actual reach, because some people MIGHT fluff it as a sword beam, but others might just view it as being extremely good at swordsmanship. Because ultimately that SHOULD be an option for a Badass Normal to not ping on the magic-dar.

I'm absolutely fine with fluffing someone to be so good at swordplay that they slice through a wall fifty feet away, but it's harder to do that when it's shut off in a magic field, and... well, when the fluff is iaijutsu, where does the magic come into it?

[Elricaltovilla]

SO HERE'S AN ODD THING TO ARGUE FOR

But I feel like Mithral Current's maneuvers with Close range should STILL be extraordinary abilities, partly because I firmly agree with 3.5e's stance that 'you can have abilities that aren't physically possible, but are still not magical', because there's a satisfying imagery in being able to draw your sword and have the slice extend beyond your actual reach, because some people MIGHT fluff it as a sword beam, but others might just view it as being extremely good at swordsmanship. Because ultimately that SHOULD be an option for a Badass Normal to not ping on the magic-dar.

I'm absolutely fine with fluffing someone to be so good at swordplay that they slice through a wall fifty feet away, but it's harder to do that when it's shut off in a magic field, and... well, when the fluff is iaijutsu, where does the magic come into it?

It's worth considering. I'll bring it up with the crew.

[Milo v3]

I also think it should be Extraordinary rather than Supernatural.

[Forrestfire]

I agree there as well.

[Taveena]

This would also likely make it a valid choice for the Myrmidon Fighter. Who I feel should be capable of being a Samurai without the trait.

[ghanjrho]

Not enough moping in the harbinger sentence.

EDIT: I now want to play a redneck Caydenite warlord who's catchphrase is "Hold My Beer."

Sir, you doth inspire me. And it is now my permanent headcanon that Cayden Cailen was a DEX Warlord focused on Golden Lion and Scarlet Throne.

[Tempestfury]

Hmmmm... I hope my feedback on the current counter was noticed.

As it is, turning the Waves to EX instead of SU is something I support.

[Kaidinah]

I was looking through the Zealot earlier today and I noticed the new convictions Nova made aren't in it. Any word on if they might make it to the Zealot PDF?

[Vhaidara]

Sir, you doth inspire me. And it is now my permanent headcanon that Cayden Cailen was a DEX Warlord focused on Golden Lion and Scarlet Throne.

Honestly, that's where I put him. I mean, him becoming a god was like, the best gambit ever.

...Guys, can we get an Epic feat called Starstone Gambit?

[Ilorin Lorati]

What is this eeeehhh-peeeeeeeeeeeeek you speak of?

[Milo v3]

What is this eeeehhh-peeeeeeeeeeeeek you speak of?

Page 406 of the Core Rule Book

[Nyaa]

Have you guys considered God of the Hourglass Stance interaction with recovery methods? I can't see anything preventing level 15 Riven Hourglass adept from using full-round recovery every round, initiating Beat the Clock, then two standard action maneuvers, repeating it every round. Is it considered acceptable power level for 15th level character?

[ErrantX]

Have you guys considered God of the Hourglass Stance interaction with recovery methods? I can't see anything preventing level 15 Riven Hourglass adept from using full-round recovery every round, initiating Beat the Clock, then two standard action maneuvers, repeating it every round. Is it considered acceptable power level for 15th level character?

This is the first anyone's mentioned this interaction to me. I'll look into it.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

So, Chris asked this before but we didn't really get much feedback on it: what are the thoughts on base Mystic? Specifically, what're the thoughts on Glyphs? Are they worth using? Cool? Thematic? Hard to understand?

We're really trying to get Mystic's identity nailed down and right now it kinda seems like folks don't like Glyphs. And if that's the case, we'd love to know why so we can get them fixed up! And if it's not, well, we'd like to know that too.

Thank'ee for the time and consideration, folks.

[Tempestfury]

... If I'm brutally honest. If I'm going to play as Mystic, I'll likely play a Knight-Chandler, because the glyphs come across as needlessly complicated and a bit bewildering for me. You already have Animus and your martial maneuvers, adding on this other little sub-system is just all that bit to much and makes the Mystic rather complicated compared to the other classes.

[Vhaidara]

Don't know if I'll be able to get you info in time, but I am going to be using a lot of mystic NPCs coming up in my game (2 weeks minimum, sadly). Hopefully it will be helpful.

Without play experience, I really have no opinion on them. I don't hate them, but they don't excite me either. I can't see myself building a character around glyphs, but they are a decent supporting feature. Also, I think they have a very good place as archetype fodder (like bravery on fighter. But not totally useless)

[Kaidinah]

For me, it feels like the Mystic has a lot of subsystems. Animus and Initiating are very cool together, but adding glyphs to the mix sometimes feels like it is a bit much.

Edit: Though I did like the Mandala adept for reducing the amount of choices. Even with less versatility, it reduced option paralysis.

[Taveena]

... Yeah. Glyphs feel a little messy and hard to actually work with, I'm sad to say. The Animus system is neat, but Glyphs themselves complicate the class and - while they might certainly add a degree of power to it - end up forcing everyone to play two somewhat in-depth subsystems at once. Which is fine optionally, but... I'm a little uneasy about it being a core feature of the class?

More to the point they don't seem that... INTERESTING, I'm sorry to say. They're minor effects with no... really fun fluff that don't entirely suit the concept of a class. Runes and Sigils are potentially a really cool idea, but the UNTAMED MAGIC class doesn't seem like the right place for them?

[Anlashok]

Glyphs are conceptually cool, but end up being a lot of moving parts that don't feel all that gratifying. I'd almost say cut down on the total number of glyphs and expand their power to make them more meaningful.

But I'd say that goes to the Mystic in general. It's a nifty class with conceptually cool parts, but it doesn't feel as thematic or cohesive as the other initiators. The warder is a big, badass guardian. The harbinger is a fast agent of fear and weakness and terror. The stalker is a roguish hunter. The zealot is a psionic commander and leader.

The mystic is.... magical? Except that doesn't stand out very much either because all three of the PoW:E classes are magical. It just feels like the Mystic has a lot of cool ideas that don't come together all the way.

Glyphs. Sorcerous Step. Crafting. Heck even the Wisdom based initiating all just feel like things that were cool that got thrown together.

I think this is in part because the class leans more heavily on Flux than most of the other class' do on their signature. Elemental Flux feels more like a Mystic class feature than a discipline the mystics happen to have. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing though.

Incidentally, I really liked the way Mandala Adept did glyphs.

[Adslahnit]

A contact of mine has this to say about the mystic's glyphs:

Having followed Path of War for a very long time, I'd like to weigh in on the pros and cons of the Glyph system. Most people haven't done a lot of work on it, but I see it as the crux of the class (in contrast with a mostly ignorable, though not weak special discipline in Elemental Flux, and a variety of class abilities you either don't really care to use or actively will take Counters that reduce the importance of).

The first thing to understand is that Glyphs are basically a bonus action. Anybody who knows anything about game design will instantly understand that it's a five star feature power wise just off that, but it's worth elaborating on. You get 20+ glyphs over the course of your career and all of them (*all of them*) are maneuver-tier powerful. Some of them are MORE powerful than maneuvers, even. They're so good they offer a good incentive to start the game as a Deadly Fist Warsoul Soulknife so you can mainline WIS and get truly massive save DCs for the ones that offer them. You can active a glyph while striking, or in place of a boost. Combine with the above and this basically means the Mystic gets a bonus Boost a round, OR he gets to sub in a new boost in place of his readied maneuvers. And he gets twenty of them. It's the only class that has what is in practice 40+ maneuvers, and 20+ readied at all times.

This has the unfortunate side effect of making a 'full power' mystic extremely overwhelming to play. Game design is both art and science, but it has rules, and a noted rule that's been well-covered by psychology is that the vast majority of people can only 'hold' five to seven distinct choices in their mind before getting analysis paralysis. Quintupling the number of choices at their disposal will cause them to shut down and play extremely suboptimally. I'd argue the Mystic is probably the strongest PoW class once one learns to work around its extremely limited recovery mechanic (it's no Warlord on that front, which is why Victorious Recovery becomes very important for it, along with the needed optimization to OTK a target as needed to regain anti-death counters and stash them away for a rainy day), but it's also by far the most micromanagement intensive. You have to fail-proof your build against getting the wrong maneuvers after your initial two or three chosen ones, you have to select your boosts with Glyphs in mind, you have to change your item purchases (that glyph that gives you 50% concealment, for example? Yeah, that changes your build. It changes it a LOT. The value of effectively doubling your hitpoints and getting to give touch attacks the finger is enormous), and on top of that you have to be mindful of a lot of moving parts in play.

If it's intended that the Mystic be the 'high skill high reward' PoW class, then Glyphs are a resounding success, because they make it immensely versatile and powerful at the cost of having a pretty much vertical learning curve. If it's meant to be similar in complexity to the other classes, it's a resounding failure and they need to be simplified to an astonishing degree. I leave it up to the PoW designers to decide where they want the Mystic to go, but I will note that if the versatility of glyphs is removed, the Mystic should probably get full BAB to compensate. Needing item taxes to hit its peak is something that checks its balance a bit, preventing it from taking off like a rocket and never having a point where it's worse than the best or second best PoWer. Without that massive source of extra power, the check of slowed down feat access isn't really needed, I don't think.

Further, extra Glyph suggestions:

-If the Mystic is meant to be a buffer, the action economy on ally side needs help. Burning two swifts for a damage bonus or heal is a very, very difficult trade to make. The buff needs to be enormously powerful (see: 50% concealment) to be worth it. And 'get hit, trigger buff' is a sucker's bet. A player who waits to get a needed benefit until after it would have helped him made a bad move. Something like an 'Animus Blaze' feat that allowed the Mystic to free-action trigger Sigils for his allies at a cost of 1, 2, or 3 Animus depending on the tier would be welcome.
-If the mystic is meant to be a debuffer...it's mostly in a good place, actually. It's a bit surprising that a tier 1 Rune is pretty much straight up king of the hill though (talking about the Blindness rune, which is super powerful in a lot of cases and makes things like the Wraithstrike rune look bad because of the really strong control it offers). I don't suggest nerfing, because it's nice to have powerful options from the get-go, just making a note of this.
-Mystic has very high damage. Bonus feats plus multi-benefit stances (whatup, Elemental Flux Stance, AKA 'best generic stance'), plus Glyphs allow it to retain a high damage value throughout an entire fight. If this is unintended, put a clause down saying Mystic cannot self-target nor self-trigger his Glyphs, because right now using them for your own selfish benefit is intensely powerful.
-Not directly glyph related, but for the love of god, rewrite the Readied Maneuvers section. It's a complete mess and does NOT clarify that you get to pick two of your maneuvers on every reshuffle, first one included, in the slightest way. This is a HUGE, game-changing thing and should not be obscured beneath bad wording. Nobody should have to read Extra Granted Maneuver, hunt down Mandala Adept through the wayback machine and then ask a question to the PoW GitP thread directly to the devs to make sure it works that way.

[RedOndjage]

So, here's a question: What happens when I use a Tempest Fury or Riven Hourglass maneuver with a blunderbuss loading buck shot? Does everyone in the cone get hit with the maneuver? How do boosts interact with the cone effect?

[Doomeye56]

So, here's a question: What happens when I use a Tempest Fury or Riven Hourglass maneuver with a blunderbuss loading buck shot? Does everyone in the cone get hit with the maneuver? How do boosts interact with the cone effect?

This was answered, I can't recall exactly but it's either only on target in the spread gets his by the maneuver or maneuvers can't be used with spread shots. I believe it's the former.

[deuxhero]

This would also likely make it a valid choice for the Myrmidon Fighter. Who I feel should be capable of being a Samurai without the trait.

Solar Wind is already an option and shares the "most Ex but some Su"