[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)

[AGrinningCat]

Glad we could make your morning weird!

Since freedom of movement fixes all of the the issue with under water combat (to include doing half damage), you could just copy the latter half of Freedom of Movement onto the abilIty and call it a day. With that they won't even need a swim speed!

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

Then I can throw out Drowned sailor harbingers at my players who use meteor hammers reflavored as anchors to drag players down to the depths.

[Lord_Gareth]

Glad we could make your morning weird!

Since freedom of movement fixes all of the the issue with under water combat (to include doing half damage), you could just copy the latter half of Freedom of Movement onto the abilIty and call it a day. With that they won't even need a swim speed!



Then I can throw out Drowned sailor harbingers at my players who use meteor hammers reflavored as anchors to drag players down to the depths.

What if we, hypothetically, wanted to adapt the combat part of that into a feat that required a stance known from Mirror, Moon, or Current? Removing the "don't need a swim speed" part weakens it a bit - what bonus might be thematically appropriate to compensate for it?

[AGrinningCat]

Well with Freedom of Movement, you're basically given a 'swim speed' that's equivalent to your normal movement mode. The only thing you lose out on an actual Swim speed is... a +8 to swim checks? And the ability to take 10 on a swim check, which you can do with 1 point into swim anyways. The largest issue I can find is in turbulent waters that can force you to move more than you can move normally -- A swim speed wouldn't help here either unless it was greater than the current of the waters (typically 40 to 90 ft per round). At faster water speeds, you have a chance to go under water... which doesn't really matter if you can breathe under water.

For the Harbinger...

Water Dweller: The Harbinger gains a swim speed equal to her base land speed. Additionally, the Harbinger no longer needs to breathe and is immune to inhaled poisons.

Replacing it with

Water Dweller: The Harbinger can move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. Additionally, the Harbinger no longer needs to breathe and is immune to inhaled poisons.

Changes the following

Loses:
•+8 to swim checks
Gains:
• No longer takes penalties for attacking under water with melee weapons.
• No longer loses half damage for certain weapon types.
• Enemies she attacks no longer gain improved cover or total cover.
• No penalties to grappling

This makes it better than Teleport while under water in terms of movement alone. The not needing to breathe is nice, though, when comparing Water-Dweller to Omen-Walk, but rules for drowning is very lax.
-----------

As for a feat... If we start with the base 'Freedom of Movement while underwater', it's simply not enough to take unless you're in a campaign where 90%+ takes place under water, in which case it becomes mandatory unless everyone's a spear using mermaid, in which case you're back to not needing it.

...If I had it my way, I'd actually focus the feat around "Ignoring odd situational penalties." I'd have to do some research (If you don't mind) to get a full feat in order, but I'd probably try to make it a catch-all feat for fighting against weird penalties, like fighting into water or... other weird stuff, which I'd have to look up to see if weird rules like this even exist outside of water terrain.

[Doomeye56]

I like the ideas Grinningcat and Prime32 put forward for glyphs.

I gotta say I'm waiting with bated breath for ErrantX reply after he returns from whatever grand task in the fiery halls of doom that draws his attention elsewhere. (I mean it's not like it could be mundane every day things that bury the rest of us normal folk, no way it could be that)

[Callin]

As am I because it affects my character lol

[Eox]

I've been totally forgetting about glyphs whenever I initiate a strike, they're neat but I really don't think they mesh very well with the class as it stands. Collecting the animus-based features into one entry is a fantastic idea too, in my mind.

Glyphs are a neat idea but I'd honestly say they'd be put to better use with whatever is happening to the Mandala Adept.

[AGrinningCat]

Okay, feat discussion:

Looking at the various Pazio released Terrain (Bog, Forest, Mountain, Aquatic, Plains, Dungeon stuff) (Not Outer Space)
There are the following rules that come into play:

Cover of all types (Partial, Improved, Total)
Attacking while underwater penalties
Movement costs/Difficult Terrain (Anywhere from 1 to 4 extra squares of movement)
Acrobatics DC increases (Generally from 2 to 5)
Stealth DC increases (Generally 2)
Acrobatics/Ride checks for steepness, slipperiness, damage..
Cannot Run
Cannot Charge
---

A feat that catches all would have to look something like...

Terrain feat
Prerequisites:
You may attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled.

Additionally, enemies cannot gain the benefits of cover or concealment (But not total concealment) from you through the use of terrain, whether it be natural (Such as a hill) or man made (Such as a stair case). Acrobatics and Stealth DCs are not increased by terrain, and you may reduce the cost of moving through difficult terrain down to 2 squares per. Finally you may always take 10, even if distracted, for Acrobatics checks in regards to terrain hazards, such as slippery ice, moving down hill, etc.

Even then, I feel that it may not be good enough as is. Maybe a 5ft movement boost increase at all times as well? Pazio has already set the standard for making traits that are strictly better than other traits, but I cannot seem to find any feats that are strictly better (Although the power of feats are all over the place.)

[Forrestfire]

I feel like, even if it's technically not as strong as a lot of feats, that proposed feat has enough stuff going on that it's going to cause blowback from a lot of people about it being "overpowered."

I would likely use a feat that hit some of the important bits (penalties to attack rolls, movement), but kept enemies able to use concealment (because I think that being able to turn off the ability to use Stealth against you is a bit too strong for a feat. Poor rogues/roguelikes). Something like this:

Terrain Mastery That's already a name for a feat. Whoops.
You are perfectly at home in your chosen environment.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Geography) 1 rank, Survival 1 rank
Benefit: Select one of the following terrain types: cold (ice, glaciers, snow, and tundra), desert (sand and wastelands), forest (coniferous and deciduous), jungle, mountains (including hills), plains, swamp, underground (caves and dungeons), urban (buildings, streets, and sewers), or water (above and below the surface).

While in this terrain, your attacks ignore cover less than total cover from terrain elements (for example: trees, stalagmites, and the surface of water), and in the case of water terrain, you take no additional penalties from making attacks underwater (and can use thrown weapons as if you were not underwater), and you deal full damage regardless of the weapon you're using.

In addition, your Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth check DCs are not increased by terrain elements of your chosen terrain, and you ignore difficult terrain caused by these terrain elements.

The skill tax is easy to get (2 ranks at level 1), but often not class skills, so it at least looks like it's a real prerequisite. I think that letting someone take 10 on the skills is a good idea, but a bit too visibily powerful (and honestly, probably not necessary, since the check DCs are low enough that with the lack of a DC increase from terrain, you're more than likely to pass).

[ErrantX]

I like the ideas Grinningcat and Prime32 put forward for glyphs.

I gotta say I'm waiting with bated breath for ErrantX reply after he returns from whatever grand task in the fiery halls of doom that draws his attention elsewhere. (I mean it's not like it could be mundane every day things that bury the rest of us normal folk, no way it could be that)

Sinus infection, both ears are infected, and its trying to fight its way to my lungs. I've felt awful for days. Plus sick family. Sorry, been a bad few days in the real world for me. Working on mystic revisions now. On the mend.

-X

[Forrestfire]

Eep, I'm sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better

[tekevil]

That is pure misery. I pray you get better soon.

No one is gonna get mad if you take some well deserved time off to pump yourself full of rest and OJ.

[TheIronGolem]

Ravenlord question: Does the Dark Messenger benefit from bonuses to the Ravenlord's INT? Or does it just get the Ravenlord's base INT? A literal reading seems to imply the former, but I'd like to know for sure so I can get Hero Lab doing the right thing.

Also, ErrantX, please do not die of an infection. At least, not until a gun-focused Harbinger archetype has been completed. I need a Vincent-Valentine-in-a-can class.

[Ilorin Lorati]

See, here I am thinking that he'd better not kick the bucket before him and the rest of the folks over at Dreamscarred Press go mad with power and decide to make their own RPG with blackjack and martials.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ravenlord question: Does the Dark Messenger benefit from bonuses to the Ravenlord's INT? Or does it just get the Ravenlord's base INT? A literal reading seems to imply the former, but I'd like to know for sure so I can get Hero Lab doing the right thing.

The Dark Messenger's Intelligence is always equal to that of its master. It benefits from temporary and item-based bonuses provided to the Ravenlord that owns it. That also means that bonuses and penalties applied to the bird directly do nothing; that is, putting a headband of vast intellect on the bird won't raise its Intelligence, and touch of idiocy won't lower it. Dealing Intelligence damage to the Ravenlord that owns the bird will damage both.

[NineThePuma]

Vincent Valentine wouldn't be a harbinger. O.o

[TheIronGolem]

The Dark Messenger's Intelligence is always equal to that of its master. It benefits from temporary and item-based bonuses provided to the Ravenlord that owns it. That also means that bonuses and penalties applied to the bird directly do nothing; that is, putting a headband of vast intellect on the bird won't raise its Intelligence, and touch of idiocy won't lower it. Dealing Intelligence damage to the Ravenlord that owns the bird will damage both.

Wow, that was quick. Good to know.

[scorpioni]

Don't forget that Battle Dragon Stance ErrantX; you deal more damage to the infection that way!

[Lord_Gareth]

Wow, that was quick. Good to know.

I try, but I'm going to be gone for the next couple of days, so...good timing ~_^

[Taveena]

SO! Seeing as the Knight Disciple is apparently stupidly overpowered when it has Smite Evil... Is there any way that they could, perhaps, get some kind of evil-targetting debuff or utility? There was some talk about how it might work if they had Claim, in which Sin Eater came up...

And, well, I thought something with similar FLUFF could be cool? An exorcism or the like, FORCING the evil out of them to cause a debuff or support your allies somehow. I haven't really got any crunchy ideas at the moment, save for the utterly half-assed 'declare NOTSMITE, enemy radiates damage to other nearby enemies as the evil is purged from them', so... I dunno. Anyone else have ideas?

[NineThePuma]

SO! Seeing as the Knight Disciple is apparently stupidly overpowered when it has Smite Evil... Is there any way that they could, perhaps, get some kind of evil-targetting debuff or utility? There was some talk about how it might work if they had Claim, in which Sin Eater came up...

And, well, I thought something with similar FLUFF could be cool? An exorcism or the like, FORCING the evil out of them to cause a debuff or support your allies somehow. I haven't really got any crunchy ideas at the moment, save for the utterly half-assed 'declare NOTSMITE, enemy radiates damage to other nearby enemies as the evil is purged from them', so... I dunno. Anyone else have ideas?

http://pastebin.com/iJeZ3fPF original suggestion for a Claim mechanic. Do with it as you will.

[Kaidinah]

SO! Seeing as the Knight Disciple is apparently stupidly overpowered when it has Smite Evil... Is there any way that they could, perhaps, get some kind of evil-targetting debuff or utility? There was some talk about how it might work if they had Claim, in which Sin Eater came up...

And, well, I thought something with similar FLUFF could be cool? An exorcism or the like, FORCING the evil out of them to cause a debuff or support your allies somehow. I haven't really got any crunchy ideas at the moment, save for the utterly half-assed 'declare NOTSMITE, enemy radiates damage to other nearby enemies as the evil is purged from them', so... I dunno. Anyone else have ideas?

We actually had a lot of suggestions regarding this last thread. One of which being Nine's Claim mechanic. Honestly, I prefer most of the suggestions made over the insane damage of a smite+boosted full-attack.

[Llyarden]

If you roll a natural 20 on a counter, does the counter automatically succeed, even if the counter roll was lower than the roll you were trying to negate?

Also, I apologise for putting all these questions somewhere where they only tenuously belong, but I haven't yet managed to find any kind of FAQ thread for all this.

[Nyaa]

If you roll a natural 20 on a counter, does the counter automatically succeed, even if the counter roll was lower than the roll you were trying to negate?

General rule is that only attack rolls and saving throws are affected by nat1/nat20. So I'd say if you roll nat20 on a counter that uses your attack roll, it's auto success. On counter that rolls skill, it's not.

[Tempestfury]

Vincent Valentine wouldn't be a harbinger. O.o

Oh? And what do you say he would be then?

[Taveena]

We actually had a lot of suggestions regarding this last thread. One of which being Nine's Claim mechanic. Honestly, I prefer most of the suggestions made over the insane damage of a smite+boosted full-attack.

Yeah, I've heard that was pretty overwhelming - my main concern over the claim mechanic is... well, they're not exactly eating souls, are they? I've heard other ways of fluffing it, but most of them were justice-based.

One interesting suggestion that came up was... well. It isn't much, really! But a Brand. The idea of searing your devotion into an evil target for SOME BENEFIT seemed kind of cool.

[AGrinningCat]

Something interesting in the new book is that Barbarians have stances now. Sorta.

I don't forsee this affecting already written PoW material (They use the distinction stance rage powers), but it is something interesting of note.

Spoiler

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The new book may want a small blurb on Stance rage powers and stance interaction, though.

[Lord_Gareth]

Something interesting in the new book is that Barbarians have stances now. Sorta.

I don't forsee this affecting already written PoW material (They use the distinction stance rage powers), but it is something interesting of note.

Eeenteresting. But can I ask you to spoiler block that image please? It's kinda big.

[AGrinningCat]

Eeenteresting. But can I ask you to spoiler block that image please? It's kinda big.

Not a problem. Everything is big on my phone, so it's hard to tell!

[Llyarden]

And yet another question (I do apologise about all these.) Is there any way to bypass the restrictions (such as 'melee attack') that are inbuilt into manuevers? The specific example that has come up is Charging Hurler + Raging Hunter Pounce, but I'm sure that there are others.

[Elricaltovilla]

Minor announcement on my part:

Vigilante's maneuver recovery has been fixed for now. We're discussing alternative maneuver recovery options though, so it's still subject to change.

Knight Disciple's Smite has been replaced with the Mark of Censure, which provides allies DR/- against attacks made by the marked creature equal to the Knight Disciple's initiation modifier. I will likely get yelled at for this.

Latest version of the new Mithral Current 9th:

Spoiler

Show

Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

The true master of the Mithral Current knows the dance of battle and every step that he takes is perfectly attuned to that deadly rhythm. Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 5 ft. step that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature, to a maximum of 6d6 points of additional damage.

I'm toying with the idea of removing the protection from AoOs in order to help provoke more attacks, but the downside is that it also makes it a more dangerous counter to use (increased chance of nat 20s).