OOTS #981 - The Discussion Thread

[goodpeople25]

Not to derail the topic - but I have just noticed that in the last panel the tables, chairs and sign all seem to be built for medium size creatures, as was the handle that Bandana manipulated and the windows that the gnomish police woman was using, and the ladder in panel 22 seems like it could be a hassle for a gnome looking like the gaps are more suited for a medium sized creature also.
Looking back the door that Bozzok looked out of also seemed to be for a medium creature as is the trash can in panel 7 strip 974 ... I could go on.

What is also noted is that some of the doors seem to be made for small creatures, where the shops are suited for medium creatures.

Some of this may be observer bias - but it just struck me as curious.

I would wonder if Tindertown is a tourist destination (perhaps in the off season to account for the lack of other medium sized creatures), or if perhaps the Gnomes claimed it from it former inhabitants - what war could have been fought by these Gnomes and against who I would have to wonder, and if this is the case will this come back to trouble the Order (or feed into Durkon's plan once he finds the temple he is after).

It could be a tourist destination, but if it was taken by force don't gnomes have a racial bonus against goblinoids (which i think represents racial hatred/rivarly) who happen to be medium sized in this universe. So i guess the goblins could have lost tinkertown to the gnomes.

[Xyril]

I can keep clicking, but the point is that it isn't hard AT ALL to find examples of drunk driving homicide being specifically mentioned as felony murder.

Not sure why the screaming for emphasis was called for, but thank you for your thoroughness...?

As anyone with any familiarity with law knows, headlines and articles tend to miss important legal points, particularly on blogs, even on blogs by supposed lawyers and legal experts like FindLaw and ABAJournal. I'm pretty sure I read an article--supposedly by a lawyer--about an attorney who was "suspended for being a complete ass to opposing counsel," where after doing the actual research it was clear that the discourteous conduct was just the cherry on top of a sundae of more serious charges including discovery violations, suborning perjury, and other more serious violations.

The reason I asked for your specific cases is because you were raising them as evidence, and it would be unfair of me to go google the most questionable examples I could find and use them to undermine your point. If this offended you I apologize.

With regard to the FindLaw post, with all due respect attorney Brett Snider, he hasn't actually cited any statutes or cases to support his assertions, and honestly his article reads a bit like an advertisement for criminal defense attorneys. The only actual case he cites involves a DUI being charged as a depraved-indifference first degree murder. That is NOT the same as DUI-felony murder.

Why is it not the same? (Spoilers, dry discussion on merger doctrine)

Spoiler

Show

As many have discussed, there are lots of levels of homicide for a reason. First degree murder, for example, has the elements of premeditation and intent absent in manslaughter, and allows greater punishment because we think those elements make the crime more serious. These distinctions are there deliberately. Most places with felony-murder on the books put it under first and/or second degree murder in terms of statute and punishment. The elements of felony-murder are generally 1) you commit a dangerous underlying felony and 2) someone dies as a result, with exceptions. Without these exceptions, a prosecutor could say, "Well, this guy has all the elements of manslaughter, BUT we can argue that he committed manslaughter, a dangerous underlying felony, and someone died as a result, and charge him with felony-murder in order to do an end run past the homicide delineations." The merger doctrine specifically bars this sort of thing in order to preserve the distinctions. In general, it applies to any sort of homicide offense (murder, vehicular homicides, manslaughter) and also crimes with elements entirely encompassed by one of these crimes. For example, an assault offense that has all of the same elements as a homicide offense, minus the resultant dead guy, will also be subject the merger doctrine and can't be the felony in felony-murder. In contrast, a crime like robbery or rape has elements absent from any similar homicide offenses, and they're inherently dangerous, so they can be used. Thus, in jurisdictions with a specific DUI manslaughter crime, the merger doctrine precludes its use in felony-murder charges, and also the use of DUI if that charge has elements that are a subset of DUI manslaughter. In a theoretical jurisdiction where DUI manslaughter is treated like any other involuntary homicide, the merger doctrine might not apply.

In the Denver case, the prosecution is trying to prove depraved indifference to human life. If they prove this element, they can prove first degree murder on the merits, without having to use felony-murder as a cheat. Judging by the lesser included charges I'm guessing they know it's a stretch.

As for the rest of it, the lack of specific details or citations is telling. Lawyers can be wrong. Mr. Snider might be right that somewhere in the United States, a felony-murder charge with a DUI as the underlying murder is possible, and will be upheld on appeal, but he offers no evidence, and in my experience it's simply not allowed in most states.

The Larry William Demers case is a slightly better but still deeply flawed example. He plead nolo to the charges, meaning that the case will likely never face any sort of appeal or serious scrutiny. The guy seemed pretty broken up about killing his family and uninterested in challenging his punishment, and in an adversarial system without unlimited resources, that pretty much means things are over. There's basic gate-keeping where the presiding judge decides whether a plea-deal is reasonable, but usually he's less worried about the finer points of criminal law, and more concerned with whether the guy actually admits to doing what he's accused of, or if he's looks like he's mentally incompetent or was beaten into pleading guilty.

The fact that he was charged at all is weak evidence at best as to the validity of the charges. Prosecutors stretching the charges for tactical reasons isn't uncommon at all. Some judges will scrutinize these cases on their own accord, but in general they rely on defense counsel to bring up issues such as "My client is accused keeping a phone someone gave to him by mistake, and is charged with theft. Theft requires that you actually take something from someone without his consent, so even if the prosecution proves everything, that's still not theft." Cases where a guilt-ridden, broken defendant feels he deserves whatever punishment he gets aren't great for holding the prosecution accountable to the law.

Note that he was up for felony murder for his own family.

Nothing new or interesting here. The death of a co-conspirator or random bystander still counts. In fact, the death of a co-conspirator caused by a random third party acting in self-defense or defense-of-others still counts. In Florida a man was charged with felony murder for the death of a woman who was shot by police when they missed him.

EDIT: Actually got curious, and after digging through a bunch of trash disguised as accurate journalism, I managed to find better evidence to support your point what you have cited: http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...2%80%99s-death

Fair warning, I wouldn't call that article great journalism either: It uses an immigrant involved in a fatal DUI as a platform to rail against the DREAM Act and immigrants in general (Subheadings include "Other DHS Bungling on Drunk Driving Illegals"), but from my brief fact-checking it seems like... the facts check-out.

This one involves a felony DUI in Virginia, where DUI is a misdemeanor until the third offense, and they used it successfully to secure a felony-murder conviction. I should note that the defense attorneys are in the process of appealing, and it seems like they're raising quasi-merger-doctrine issues as part of their grounds for appeal. Also, as I suspected, Virginia doesn't have a DUI homicide law, or even a vehicular homicide law--they're just treated as regular involuntary manslaughter, so there is no homicide offense with DUI as an lesser included offense, and thus no merger doctrine hook.

[pendell]

Interesting that we're talking about this now, because today many of us in the US learned about a new type, depraved-heart murder.

...

Is anyone else just mildly bothered that we have so many different words in our language for unlawfully killing other human beings?

What is also noted is that some of the doors seem to be made for small creatures, where the shops are suited for medium creatures.

Some of this may be observer bias - but it just struck me as curious.

I would wonder if Tindertown is a tourist destination (perhaps in the off season to account for the lack of other medium sized creatures), or if perhaps the Gnomes claimed it from it former inhabitants - what war could have been fought by these Gnomes and against who I would have to wonder, and if this is the case will this come back to trouble the Order (or feed into Durkon's plan once he finds the temple he is after).

Hmm... but it doesn't have to be a tourist destination. If you're a city, you could be trading with any passerby. Given how common humans are in the world, it makes sense to have furniture specifically for them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Particle_Man]

Do the runes in the vertically long panel (when Crystal falls to her death) mean anything, or are they random?

[dancrilis]

It could be a tourist destination, but if it was taken by force don't gnomes have a racial bonus against goblinoids (which i think represents racial hatred/rivarly) who happen to be medium sized in this universe. So i guess the goblins could have lost tinkertown to the gnomes.

They do indeed - I had wondered about monster races but for whatever reason Goblins didn't occur to me, but now that you mention it there is another possibility.
When Crystal started her attack the Gnomes merely shrugged until she started attacking them - could this be an indication that they are used to monsters in their midst - possible the very goblins mentioned above, Gnomes also can easily pick up Goblin as a starting language so it is possible that the Goblins are just townsfolk that hide when adventurers show up. This could lead to raising with the order the issues of the goblinoid peoples - which may allow for more meaningful interaction with Redcloak in the future.

Do the runes in the vertically long panel (when Crystal falls to her death) mean anything, or are they random?

People have said that they mean:

Spoiler

Show

This spell blocks the heat

But I have seen nothing concrete to support that - a font was mentioned that mapped to it but the font that was suggested does not seem to.

Hmm... but it doesn't have to be a tourist destination. If you're a city, you could be trading with any passerby. Given how common humans are in the world, it makes sense to have furniture specifically for them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

True enough - but with then I would expect to see some more medium sized creatures - otherwise I would assume they would build there houses, and shops for themselves. Where as tourists would mean that the shops would be tailored for out of towners (or at least the obvious shops, the locals might go to cheaper places).

[Ron Miel]

Do the runes in the vertically long panel (when Crystal falls to her death) mean anything, or are they random?

"This spell blocks the heat"

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...0&postcount=62

[Particle_Man]

Thanks for the reply!

[Keltest]

"This spell blocks the heat"

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...0&postcount=62

That seems like an alarmingly practical way to word the spell. The gnomes are clearly not the only inhabitants of the island.

[Lissou]

Not to derail the topic - but I have just noticed that in the last panel the tables, chairs and sign all seem to be built for medium size creatures, as was the handle that Bandana manipulated and the windows that the gnomish police woman was using, and the ladder in panel 22 seems like it could be a hassle for a gnome looking like the gaps are more suited for a medium sized creature also.
Looking back the door that Bozzok looked out of also seemed to be for a medium creature as is the trash can in panel 7 strip 974 ... I could go on.

What is also noted is that some of the doors seem to be made for small creatures, where the shops are suited for medium creatures.

Some of this may be observer bias - but it just struck me as curious.

I would wonder if Tindertown is a tourist destination (perhaps in the off season to account for the lack of other medium sized creatures), or if perhaps the Gnomes claimed it from it former inhabitants - what war could have been fought by these Gnomes and against who I would have to wonder, and if this is the case will this come back to trouble the Order (or feed into Durkon's plan once he finds the temple he is after).

Interesting. My guess is that medium-sized doors still allow small creatures (and so on for chairs, etc) so for "public" accommodations like stores and restaurants that's what they go for, since medium creatures are so common?

[Amphiox]

One need not posit tourist destinations or prior settlers to explain the presence of medium sized infrastructure. One need only posit that the gnomes have an interest in international trade (their city sitting smack in between the Western and Northern Continents, all populated by majorities of medium sized humanoids) and are semi-competent businesspeople.

[blunk]

This spell blocks the heat

Probably intended that way, but there's no space symbol between "the" and "heat", and the fourth character of the last word is different than previous "h"s.

I prefer "GUTS SPILL[,] FLAMES GUIDING"

[goodpeople25]

One need not posit tourist destinations or prior settlers to explain the presence of medium sized infrastructure. One need only posit that the gnomes have an interest in international trade (their city sitting smack in between the Western and Northern Continents, all populated by majorities of medium sized humanoids) and are semi-competent businesspeople.

What about the reason that the waste disposal facility needs medium sized people to fit in their facility and are willing to add steps to see out of the glass instead of lowering the structure or raising the floor.
Though a strange thing i noticed actually is that some doors seem appropriate sized and yet are next to those that aren't though i suppose they could have previously been shops.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let's not forget this is also an airship port, so you will have others dropping in from time to time for fuel and repairs. Which is why the Mechane is here, after all.

[blunk]

Maybe Tinkertown just has legislation to prevent discrimination against shortness-challenged persons.

[Gaming-Poet]

I find myself shaking my head.

Haley engaged in a beautiful act of compassion for Crystal, someone she has every psychological reason to scorn and someone who has committed wanton murder before her very eyes just to get her attention.

She knew she had to take out this mass murderer, but she first gave her a chance to walk, spoke with her the few words of kindness she's likely ever heard, and told her just before her death that she would be missed. She acted with a wise, mature calm about the whole matter that few people can manage.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the blogosphere is inundated with people wishing they had been there to shoot to death _Fill_in_the_blank_latest_murderer rather than "wasting the court's time with that &*^%@".

(I avoid giving specific examples of recent murderers for the obvious reasons of forum courtesy and respectfulness.)

Haley gave Crystal so much more than most villains in our stories ever get -- and so much more than real life murderers get, as the recent news attests.

And instead of applauding the poetry of Haley's calm maturity and compassion, many people are obsessed with semantics.

When did we turn into such a literalist people indifferent to poetry and compassion and the sort of maturity that enables the two?

[BannedInSchool]

And instead of applauding the poetry of Haley's calm maturity and compassion, [...]

How are we supposed to have an incessant argument about that?

[Doug Lampert]

How are we supposed to have an incessant argument about that?

It should be "Haley's calm, compassion, and maturity"!

The actual stated "Haley's calm maturity and compassion" implies that calm is modifying maturity and thus denies that her compassion is also calm.

Further, if you just add the commas, it isn't alphabetical! Lists should be alphabetical!

And then you come in and claim that this leaves no room for argument! Talking about the forums! Seriously, the forums can argue about anything. We can argue about our ability to argue!

[Mojique]

Would be a condign #1000.

[Ron Miel]

Would be a condign #1000.

I have absolutely no idea what this means.

[Gift Jeraff]

What's the deal with Elan? He's just staring blankly...hasn't even taken a bite yet.

[Elenna]

What's the main debate about?

It looks to me like there are a few main debates. In no particular order:

1. Whether Haley killing Crystal was Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic, given that she did it without a trial but with the approval and help of a law enforcement officer.
2. Whether Haley killing Crystal was Good or Neutral (I don't think anyone was actually arguing it was Evil) given that Crystal had killed several gnomes, admitted she was going to kill a lot more gnomes, and they had no other feasible way of stopping her without endangering more lives, but Haley essentially led Crystal into a trap while talking calmly with her and having a nice, polite discussion during which Haley mentioned that she wasn't compulsively lying anymore.
3. The precise legal definition of murder, homicide, first-degree murder, etc. This one, as far as I can tell, wasn't really a debate so much as just people talking about relevant facts.

EDIT: I forgot about one debate:
4. Whether this comic can be called cynical, and what cynicism is. I honestly have no idea what was going on with that debate, but as Xyril mentions, it was essentially snuffed out by the discussion on the legal definition of murder.

[Lissou]

What's the deal with Elan? He's just staring blankly...hasn't even taken a bite yet.

He's looking lovingly at his awesome girlfriend. Or he hit his head real hard when Crystal punched him and he's buffering right now.

[Emperordaniel]

He's looking lovingly at his awesome girlfriend. Or he hit his head real hard when Crystal punched him and he's buffering right now.

Elan is a robot??!?

[Xyril]

She knew she had to take out this mass murderer, but she first gave her a chance to walk, spoke with her the few words of kindness she's likely ever heard, and told her just before her death that she would be missed. She acted with a wise, mature calm about the whole matter that few people can manage.

And instead of applauding the poetry of Haley's calm maturity and compassion, many people are obsessed with semantics.

I think a large part of the reason the debate began in the first place was that some people were arguing that Haley's actions were actually evil and/or chaotic, either because of the methods she used (trickery rather than Miko-style announcing your attention to do battle) or the act of killing Crystal itself (because some people say Haley as breaking a truce, or the threat of mass-gnome-murder being too remote to justify killing, etc.) The "Haley's act is chaotic" assertion started an interesting discussion into how the lawful-chaotic spectrum relates to whether or not you obey actual local laws in D&D. The "Haley's act is evil" assertion started a debate where people who agree with you about Haley acting wisely and compassionately about the whole situation (myself included) found ourselves wondering how in the nine hells you could reasonably argue that Haley acted on the evil end of the spectrum.

Also, someone made an assertion on the comic relying on a very twisted, minority denotation of the word "cynicism" (with regard to literary criticism) and attempted to start a crap-storm reminiscent of the whole "Redcloak as failed characterization" thread, but it was smothered by a fun discussion of murder.

[Lissou]

Elan is a robot??!?

Hey, if we can talk about people processing stuff, "buffering" should be a perfectly valid word as well :P It's certainly one most people would recognize and understand nowadays (especially people who read a webcomic).

[Bulldog Psion]

Hey, if we can talk about people processing stuff, "buffering" should be a perfectly valid word as well :P It's certainly one most people would recognize and understand nowadays (especially people who read a webcomic).

Personally, I love the usage.

"Excuse me while I drink some coffee to speed up the morning buffering process..."

[Cizak]

Personally, I love the usage.

"Excuse me while I drink some coffee to speed up the morning buffering process..."

"And then, once I get to work I can start downloading..."

[BannedInSchool]

"Can you say that again? I'm seriously dropping packets."

[Shining Wrath]

I think the argument about distinctions between murder and manslaughter in US law is interesting but pointless, because a world where there are immensely powerful entities of great malevolence will have different laws.

The assumption of modern legal systems is that the state has enough power to apprehend and hold an accused criminal. In places where that is not the case, summary executions are a lot more common.

[hamishspence]

I think the argument about distinctions between murder and manslaughter in US law is interesting but pointless, because a world where there are immensely powerful entities of great malevolence will have different laws.

The assumption of modern legal systems is that the state has enough power to apprehend and hold an accused criminal. In places where that is not the case, summary executions are a lot more common.

In the context of OOTS though - the differences still matter in places like Azure City - which has 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, and Voluntary Manslaughter as charges Belkar could have been charged with.