OOTS #981 - The Discussion Thread

[canpinter]

No X.X not dead

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah, so that's why the volcano's there.

[D.One]

Wow! I almost bought the teories for a redeeming(ish) Crystal, but Haley's dialogue (wich I agree was a way of deciding if Crystal was to be destroyed or left alone) shows us that she's still a psychopatic killer.

And then Haley does what needs to be done.

Poetic. Brutal. Sooo Terminator. Maybe Haley could have ended her phrase with "Bye, Crystal. You won't be back."

[Jay R]

That was rather unsettling. In a sense, in her last moment, Crystal was more human than she has ever been. Sure, she planned to go on gnome rampage, but hey, killing is all she knows. And she is not the sharpest tool in the shed. And she has been golemized. And in constant pain. You don't expect a lot of self-reflection.

Um, she was going to murder everyone in Tinkertown.
"LOTS OF GNOMES WITH TINY HEADS
FUN TO CRUSH
WON'T RUN OUT"

But she had some. The way she turned fight with Haley, the way that two of them talked together almost understanding each other kind of led the way to perhaps giving her some kind of redemption. She made peace with Haley in some way, with her "maybe later" remark. Remember, she is a golem, she could've easily kept on fighting. She choose not to.

No, she didn't. She just paused. She has a plan.
"LOTS OF GNOMES WITH TINY HEADS
FUN TO CRUSH
WON'T RUN OUT"

The idea that you shouldn't take down an avowed, intended mass murderer when you can, because she happens to be between murders at the moment, is not reasonable.

Yet Haley chose to backstab her in a rather brutally cold way. Can't say it was a good act.

I'll say it. It was a good act. It was a Lawful Good act. It was a heroic act. It was the end of a fight that started with a murderous assault, and occurred right after Haley offered Crystal a way to stop her murderous rampage, and after Crystal said that she would continue her mass murders.

Crystal confirmed that she is, and would remain, a "sadistic unrepentant murderer who's a danger to, like, everyone".

"LOTS OF GNOMES WITH TINY HEADS
FUN TO CRUSH
WON'T RUN OUT"

Haley knew that her sword wouldn't defeat her. So she used her Bluff skill to do so. Every single person in Tinkertown owes Haley supreme gratitude, a hero's reward, and quite possibly, his or her life.

[happycrow]

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate--and quickly." --Robert Heinlein, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long

[Krizak]

It's a variant of W.E. Coyote's Law of Cartoon Inertia. Crystal doesn't know she shouldn't drown and thus, drown.

Or if you prefer, golem are denser than regular bodies.
Or if you prefer, she shouldn't be able to speak either on the last panel while just her hand isn't submerged yet. Oh wait, you may not prefer that at all.

And here I was going to say that it was Crystal. There's nothing more dense than her.

2) Didn't Elan want waffles? What changed his mind?

It's a buffet. The waffles will come later. I know that whenever I'm at a breakfast buffet, I save the waffles (or pancakes or French toast) for near the end, since with the syrup, it's practically breakfast dessert.

[t209]

I feel that it's cruelty (crystal is sentient) and mercy (crystal needs to be put down) at the same time.
The last panel kinda kill the sad moment though.

[Edhelras]

He's WAAY beyond a Raise Dead, and you can't create undead out of mush, ja?

Just feed him to the mush-rooms *snicker*

[Dr. Gamera]

Spoiler

Show

This spell blocks the heat

Thank you! I can now spend ten more minutes sleeping next to my wife tonight.

[Gray Mage]

I think that this actually how much Haley has grown to be more good than before. In the first killing of Crystal, she did it for the danger Crystal represented for her (if I'm not mistaken). In this one, however, Crystal isn't proving danger for Haley in the short term, but that isn't enough to set Haley to lead Crystal to the trap. What really sets the plan going? Crystal describing her desire to murder innocents. I'd say that was a Good action, capital G included.

[Kalmageddon]

Wow. I surely didn't see that coming.

You didn't?
No sarcasm here, but was that turn of events actually hard to predict? Immediately after Crystal says she's going to keep murdering gnomes and Haley starts walking I assumed she was going to kill her, although I was going to guess that she was going to trip her off the mountain or something similar, which in hindsight probably wouldn't have done the job, this being a D&D-based world and all.

[Quild]

(or pancakes or French toast)

Toasts.

We just call them toast. You non-french add "French" in front of everything!




Don't have my DStP to check the exact phrasing I should have used :(

(to be fair, what we call "toasts" is what you also call "toasts". What you call "French toasts", we call it "pain perdu" which litteral translation would be "lost bread". Guess it's because it would be lost if it wasn't for this recipe.
Now I want to check "Kramer vs Kramer" to see if the term "French Toasts" is indeed used in original version).

[Angelalex242]

So, we've got Terminator 2 and Gollum mixed in with the Avenger's Schwarma scene afterwards.

Heh, why not?

[Pax_Chi]

Excellent way to tie up Haley's loose ends. I'm somewhat surprised by all of the sympathy Crystal received over the last few strips, given she hasn't ever been anything but what Haley described her as: an unrepentant murderer. She showed nothing but absolute glee at killing people, and was unapologetic about killing the wrong people by mistake. She had no aspirations beyond murdering people and the joy she took in it. While the fate she suffered wasn't anything I'd really wish on anyone, I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for the unrepentant murder machine. In a lot of ways, she shows what Belkar would be like without his few redeeming qualities and the character growth he got over the last several books.

[Raphite1]

"Municipal Waste Disposal Facility": a lever-activated hatch over a giant pit of lava. Tarn Adams would be proud!

Your reference was excellent and has been sadly unappreciated in this thread!

And +1 to all the folks who are admiring the lava/flame effects. I stopped reading for a few moments just to admire the art there.

[YossarianLives]

The art is absolutely awesome, especially when Crystal falls in the fire. It's so amazing how much OOTS has progressed in art since the original comics!

[SaintRidley]

Looks like the second death will avoid the controversy of the first one.

Excellent strip. Love the lighting effects with the lava.

[Psyren]

They did have several minutes to discuss options while Crystal was busy destroying Bozzok's corpse. I also agree with Psyren that it was probably the gnome's idea.

That wasn't actually me that said that, though I do believe this is the case too. I imagine the conversation went something like:

Haley: "Wow, she's really going at it in there."
Bandana: "Yeah, but we need a way to deal with her once she's done in case she attacks us again."
Gnome: "I know just the place." *Explains about waste disposal volcano and trap door location.* "But we need to get her over there somehow."
Haley: "Hang on - let me talk to her. We might be able to resolve this peacefully by getting her to just leave. If she doesn't, we'll consider the volcano plan B and I'll get her there." *reactivates fly wand*

Chekhov's smoking volcano?

Heh. Sneaky Giant, hiding crucial details in plain sight like that.

Haley is so cool when she leads Crystal to certain death. Or... destruction, recycling, whatever.

In today's panel 11, she reminds me of our beloved Elf Commander, as he is about to explain to the hobgoblin prisoner the one quality without which no goblin can be truly good.

Do you truly not see the difference between a helpless goblin prisoner and a nigh-indestructible, evil abomination who is openly telling you their plans to commit mass-murder, AND kill you sometime later while they're at it?

[Doug Lampert]

BTW, I doubt if D&D rules say anything on this topic, but this strip has another violation of physics. Crystal should actually float on the lava, since liquid rock is denser than what bodies are made of. But I learned my lesson about this kind of thing and now accept it without complaint.

What, that's silly, haven't you watched any movies? Since the special effects for falling in lava are generated by dropping someone in water than then changing it to lava with special effects, you sink in lava just as easily as in water.

(Similarly, actual lava usually has a thin crust of solidified rock on top, because lava is a lousy conductor of heat and the top layer is able to radiate and conduct to air which given convective effects is actually a pretty good conductor by comparison. Plenty of people walk on lava and live and last time I checked on the web for falling into lava, both cases mentioned involved the person getting back up, and walking away from the lava without significant injury.)

[Yagerr]

I haven't laughed that hard in a while - the brunch scene was epic.

[GKBeetle]

The way they killed Crystal was perfect. What made this comic brutal for me was that they just went out to lunch afterwards. No "alas poor monster." I was expecting someone to have a reaction to Elab's in (panel 2, here). Haley's reaction was a little too much like Tarquin's after killing Nale, in the outgrown this antagonist sense. The lack of gravity actually made it more brutal.

It's funny that you think there's a lack of gravity. The fact that she fell into a pit of lava kind of disproves that just a little.

[Anarion]

Oh wow, that's some of the scariest I've seen of Haley. That is not a person I'd want to cross.

[Mad Humanist]

I wonder if "everyone" was the agreed prompt to do the thing.

[Ave]

Great strip but I feel like it's missing something. Oh, I know, a terrible pun from Elan. Now what would that be?

Like, this burrito makes my stomach burn?

[Quild]

Excellent way to tie up Haley's loose ends. I'm somewhat surprised by all of the sympathy Crystal received over the last few strips, given she hasn't ever been anything but what Haley described her as: an unrepentant murderer. She showed nothing but absolute glee at killing people, and was unapologetic about killing the wrong people by mistake. She had no aspirations beyond murdering people and the joy she took in it. While the fate she suffered wasn't anything I'd really wish on anyone, I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for the unrepentant murder machine. In a lot of ways, she shows what Belkar would be like without his few redeeming qualities and the character growth he got over the last several books.

It's quite common against characters or real beings to believe that no one deserves to suffer and endless pain or be tortured. Or death sentence for this matter; but at least oots-world has something after death for a certainty, so killing is not really the same thing.

Elan even felt some sadness for Kubota. And for Nale obviously.

[rewinn]

As for the question whether Crystal should have sunk into the lava, or floated: it seems to me that a Municipal Waste Disposal Facility may prefer its trash to sink into the lava, thus minimizing air pollution, and eliminating the need for a filtration/odor control system. Perhaps a bit of the runic magic seen at the top confers "sinkability" on objects falling through (using the well-known McGuffin Effect), or perhaps the lava is magically undensified through a means not seen on camera.

[Gwin]

excellent comic :) thank you so much

[Lkctgo]

Off-Screen death? No death.

Yes I'm Kidding!

[Doug Lampert]

It's quite common against characters or real beings to believe that no one deserves to suffer and endless pain or be tortured. Or death sentence for this matter; but at least oots-world has something after death for a certainty, so killing is not really the same thing.

Elan even felt some sadness for Kubota. And for Nale obviously.

Yeah, sympathy for the dead in general makes some sense. Hating Crystal at this point is pointless, and there's no reason to celebrate her death, and it's sad that the potential was wasted, Crystal was reasonably competent at some things or she'd not have been a threat, the waste of potential in someone like that is a sad thing.

All that said: sympathy is limited, there's no reason to actually think Crystal wasn't deserving of her fate. How many far less deserving targets has the OotS killed and shown no emotional response over? Random goblin #4253 is VASTLY more deserving of sympathy, help, a raise dead or resurrect, or of prolonged angst by the order after killing him (or her) than Crystal.

Worrying particularly about Haley killing Crystal strikes me as a clear cut case of only caring about the people who's names you know. And in this particular case, everything we know about the named character says, "Kill her, kill her with fire", which Our Heroes quite righteously did, and then they went out for breakfast, because that's what they were going to do prior to the unexpected murderous rampage.

If they're supposed to be feeling upset over someone's death on this day in OotS land, I can find pictures of at least three gnomes who died this morning and are VASTLY more deserving of upset and angst.

[SterlingAvenger]

Yeah, sympathy for the dead in general makes some sense. Hating Crystal at this point is pointless, and there's no reason to celebrate her death, and it's sad that the potential was wasted, Crystal was reasonably competent at some things or she'd not have been a threat, the waste of potential in someone like that is a sad thing.

All that said: sympathy is limited, there's no reason to actually think Crystal wasn't deserving of her fate. How many far less deserving targets has the OotS killed and shown no emotional response over? Random goblin #4253 is VASTLY more deserving of sympathy, help, a raise dead or resurrect, or of prolonged angst by the order after killing him (or her) than Crystal.

Worrying particularly about Haley killing Crystal strikes me as a clear cut case of only caring about the people who's names you know. And in this particular case, everything we know about the named character says, "Kill her, kill her with fire", which Our Heroes quite righteously did, and then they went out for breakfast, because that's what they were going to do prior to the unexpected murderous rampage.

If they're supposed to be feeling upset over someone's death on this day in OotS land, I can find pictures of at least three gnomes who died this morning and are VASTLY more deserving of upset and angst.

And if a name and backstory is needed for people to feel sorry for those gnomes then I'm sure we can start a thread to provide them.