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2015-05-16, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Vriska's personality isn't admirable.
She's a bully who is massively insecure and puts down anyone who challenges her, she overestimates her abilities time and time again, and continues to treat the world as if it was all about her.
Her ghost was the best she's ever been in the story because said ghost can actually see her flaws and has developed the ability to actually attune with people emotionally in a way that isn't just a means of heightening her massively fragile ego.
And the worst thing is that her insecurity ruins other people. Tavros was never weak. But since he did fit the mold that Vriska wanted him too, didn't fit how his ancestor was in her stupid journal, she proceeded to massively manipulate, abuse, and treat him like crap, and she continued to hate him for not fitting her ideal of how he should be.
I hate Vriska. I don't understand how anyone can like her. At all.i am going to make it through this year
if it kills me
i am going to make it though this year
if it kills me
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2015-05-16, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
My favorite Vriska moment is still her conversation with the absent John before she was planning to go fight Bec Noir. It was a moment of true introspection on her part and even though she made the wrong choice, she was trying to fix a mistake and make up for past wrongdoings and overcome the internal issues that had made her the way she was. Unfortunately by denying her this I think she failed to do so in an oddly crippling way. I expect John to be the one to help her move forward again, to set it right. He seems to be the only one with enough personal moxy to overcome hers.
Also I'm not really sure what you mean by Rose not being the same character she was at the start? To me, at least he core is largely unchanged - she's still analytically minded and deeply uncertain about her place in the grand scheme of things, only certain that she does want one. The main change I see in her is she has become more passive. I put that down to no longer really trusting her own judgement, which, given the numerous ways she was played before due to her cockiness, is not exactly surprising to me.
I take issue with your definition of character growth too. A 'badass' struggling to reconnect with their emotions/moral compass sounds pretty compelling to me, and that's without considering all the modes of growth completely independent of badassery measurements.
Edit: Vriska did make that admission, at the point I mentioned. It's one reason I like it so much.Last edited by Cavelcade; 2015-05-16 at 07:01 AM.
Avatar from Gunnerkrigg Court.
SpoilerPrevious avatar courtesy of CoffeeIncluded - of Kurt, from theToes in the WaterKnee DeepAgainst the currentStormy Seas campaign.
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2015-05-16, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Land of Stone and Stars
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
By Alternian standards, and those are the only standards they knew for most of their lives, Tavros is absolutely weak. He lacks aggression, his growth rate is pathetic (at least at first), and he insists on getting others to do his work for him. He really is quite pathetic in a culture of "insane badasses" as Dave put it. I am quite sure that Vriska honestly expected him to be culled every time the drones came through because he was such a disappointment to the Alternian ideal. I also believe that her torment of him was because she truly wanted him to be strong enough to survive to maturity. Unfortunately, Tavros is worse than simply weak - he's rebellious in the wrong ways. He fights and resists whenever someone tries to make things anything but easier for him, whether or not it's well intended. This continually frustrates Vriska, inspiring her to do and say truly awful things.
Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2015-05-16, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
I disagree, mostly. Yes, Tavros lacked aggression, but I don't think that's specifically something that makes him weak. I think his ability to commune with animals was amazingly powerful, and frankly more impressive than what Vriska had.
Also, I think "trying to make him stronger" doesn't hold any weight when she THREW HIM OFF A GODDAMN CLIFF.
I think that if Tavros had been allowed to mature at his own rate - because there are late bloomers in every culture - he would probably have succeeded more. In trying to 'make him grow', which also coincidentally included trying to shape him into her perfect boyfriend in an incredibly abused and messed up way, Vriska stifled his possible development.
I don't particularly like Tavros as a character, but I can't understand any attempts to justify how Vriska treated him.i am going to make it through this year
if it kills me
i am going to make it though this year
if it kills me
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2015-05-16, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
There really aren't any. Remember, their relationship was in vacillating Red/Black, and Kanaya wasn't really doing a very good job at presiding over it as auspistice (no fault of Kanaya's, it just wasn't working out). The closest thing I can think of for 'reasons' for her to treat him that way is a huge pile of mixed up emotions that don't make sense. She feels redrom for him, which may or may not be natural, and may or may not be entirely due to Ancestor!Mindfang's journal. She also feels blackrom for him, possibly out of spite for herself (potentially: hate having flushed for a lowblood, hate for his apparent weakness, etc) or her ancestor (since she seems to really look up to her ancestor, she could feel a little vengeful - this part was later confirmed as part of a weird payback-destiny when almost all the ancestors' descendants killed the descendant of their ancestor's killer). It could also be real hatred, not blackrom, because troll romance sure is weird.
However, this huge pile of text shouldn't be taken as attempts to justify what she did. It all may come out good at the end, but it was still a really *&%^y thing to do. This is coming from someone who is an actual Vriska fan, too.
Regarding her conversation with absent-John, that still happened, since it happened before he appeared and changed the events of her death - the convo happened moments before Terezi appeared and challenged her with the coinflip. However, she didn't get to mull it over for however long she was a ghost, and instead the timeline seemed to pander to keeping her alive for the express purpose of being everyone's boss/replacement mother. Her thing about seeing her own flaws in the new updates? I don't think that's genuine, since ghost!vriska is a lot more wise to that. In fact, I don't really think I like this version as much as the one that turned into ghost!vriska, because she doesn't seem fallible, or connect-able. In the past, she had moments of self-doubt, and that made her more... uh, "human" (). Those moments also made her vastly more likable to me.Last edited by Derjuin; 2015-05-16 at 09:22 AM.
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2015-05-16, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
who said her personality was admirable?
I said it was strong, well defined. she was a bully yes but we know WHY she's a bully, HOW she's a bully WHO she's a bully too. As a person she is terrible yes, but as a CHARACTER in a sorry she is a good character in a story.
from what i saw at least she went from a snarky and fairly agressive character with the occaisional silly streak to an almost total elderich goth where before it was merely a light interest, to what i can only describe as a ball of sunshine and rainbows and literal light all through the span of the comic.
Kinda feel as if part of the probelm may be her appearance from then and now. granted three years have passed, but when i see the Rose in [S]WV: Acend i see a snarky, almost angry short character that looks nothing like any of the hero-mode images we've seen recently, indeed somehow even her sprites in the most recent updates look different asside from just the god teir pajamas.
all in all i can't quite explain it or what the differences truely are. i just know that if you showed me the Rose we have now, and the Rose we first met under the circumstance that i had never read nor heard anything about homestuck? I'd think they were two entirely sepperate people that just loooked simmiler.
I take issue with your definition of character growth too. A 'badass' struggling to reconnect with their emotions/moral compass sounds pretty compelling to me, and that's without considering all the modes of growth completely independent of badassery measurements.Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2015-05-16 at 03:40 PM.
Avy by Thormag
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2015-05-17, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
With the comparisons people are giving between pre-retcon and post retcon vriska, with vriska's last line when she jumps into the window, I strongly suspect Vriska so going to be having a decent length adventure with ghost vriska, setting things up for a final battle between the black hole girls (Calliope, Jade and Nana) and the Cal Bros. (Caliborn, Arquis, and the clown)
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2015-05-25, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Spoiler: Upd8!
Gee, I wonder who will be appearing on this yellow brick road? Maybe it'll be someone who just harvested a shiny pair of red slippers from a recently deceased wicked witch? :P
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2015-05-27, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
New potato, and my response to it is as such:
Spoiler
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2015-05-27, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
That grinning Terezi
I guess she completely predicted it.
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2015-05-28, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Some Homestuck characters have a weird tendency to smile even when I would guess that they aren't happy based not only on the situation but on their dialogue and behavior as well. It's particularly noticeable with Terezi and Tavros.
Spoiler: Events continue to take place.Someone asked about the possibility of combining two single-prototyped sprites earlier, I think. Well, this isn't that, but it's definitely relevant data. Of note:
1. JASPROSESPRITE^2 DOESN'T HAVE A GHOST BUTT! Who ever would have anticipated that?! Why, just think about what that implies about what's going on here!
...
Yeah, I got nothing.
2. This one is less obvious, but it's clear on examination that the combined sprite's outfit is nearly identical to Dream Rose's, with only minor elements of Rosesprite's and Jaspersprite's clothing. WHAT THE HELL, WHAT IS GOING ON. :O
Okay, so. Let's think about this. Prototyping a sprite with something gives the sprite properties from that thing, and prototyping a sprite twice gives it properties from two things. Obviously. Prototyping a sprite with another already double-prototyped sprite lets you indirectly contribute two things to a sprite's overall mashup while using up only one prototyping "slot", thereby allowing you to make a mashup of three things total, or even of a theoretically unlimited number of things with enough sprites. That's the obvious application of sprite combining.
But the double-prototyped sprite doesn't just have properties from the objects that it was prototyped with, it also has the special properties that come from being a sprite! And I'd have thought that giving sprite properties to a sprite would be pretty redundant, but... apparently less so than I would have thought? Maybe some things stack rather than overlap. Like, if a regular sprite has half of a normal body, then a double sprite has two halves of a normal body; one half for being a player's sprite, and another half for also being a different player's sprite. Hey, looks like I do have something! Whoa. Similarly, one color for each constituent sprite.
And... maybe Dream Rose has been revived through doubling up on the whole "bringing back the dead" aspect of sprites? Maybe we'll get to see some cool dream powers or something. Dream selves seem to be able to... well, do the sorts of things that people can do in dreams, flying being just one example. (Remember Dream Jade dreaming up a bunch of extra arms?) That might be neat.
It seem like they've hit on some sort of special bonus combo thing here. And who knows what might happen if Jasprose merges with Tavros, for example. That might be too much. We're probably dealing with an entity with a dangerously high power level already.
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2015-05-28, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Spoiler
i kinda feel like the whole dreamself-powers thing has kinda been retconned out sort of? Back when Jade did her multi-arm thing the whole dreamself dear was a mysterious and unknown entity, and sort of acted like it took place more in an actual dream world then a real and physical one. sincei t was explored more however we've learned that in actuallity it's more like one mind being transfered from one body to another on the same material plane, you could go up to Derse or Prospit or what have you and physically touch your own dreamself if you actually wanted too. and idk, as a result of that it just sort of feels like they became less "magical" over time? Like they can fly yes, but i'm less sure about them being able to grow aditional arms now. Though Jasprosesprite^2 also has Jasper's tentacle arms, wich i suppose could potentually act like Jack/PM's tentacle arms, and merely appear on command when needed.Avy by Thormag
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2015-05-28, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Spoiler: PotatoSburb, come for the convoluted rules, stay for the convoluted rules to stretched to the limits and then some.
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2015-05-28, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
So uh, am I the only one confused as to where Rosesprite came from? Did I miss the update where she happened, or did she just kind of pop into existence off-screen?
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2015-05-28, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2015-05-28, 02:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2015-05-28, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Rose/Roxy/Dave, here.
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2015-05-28, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
I find it interesting how homestuck is falling more and more into the old patterns of Problem Sleuth. It was of course always present, but now we have the habit of cloning/copying characters and having all kinds of mutilations and transformations happen to them too.
This makes me think the boss-fight will be as long as the entire previous part.
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2015-05-28, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2015-05-28, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Spoiler: New updateThis must be the victorious alt-Calliope? I can't remember: Did we ever see Jade talking to her in a dream, or was it just Jade telling Calliope prime that she had talked with her?
It may be a matter that in her new role she can't show any doubts. Everyone has to believe in her plan. But yes, I don't like her as well that way, either. Maybe she'll be more interesting when she interacts with her ghost.Last edited by eschmenk; 2015-05-28 at 09:43 PM.
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2015-05-28, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
It's more than that -- Problem Sleuth is very much the prototype of Homestuck.
In many ways, Problem Sleuth ("PS") was the "test-type" for the sort of comic Hussie wanted to make: a "choose your own adventure" that he wrote on the fly. As PS went on it became to develop its own mythos and you can see how Hussie started to try to weave a coherent meta-narrative to build out of the chaos later exemplified by Twitch Plays. The explicit references likely started as pure Plot Welding to keep things from meandering endlessly (seen extensively in Jailbreak) but later he was able to use the same tools he developed in PS to make Homestuck reach beyond it's CYOA roots.
Frankly, it's one of the things I appreciate most about Hussie as a Creator: being able to convert Garbage In into anything more than Garbage Out (let alone a cohesive creative work!) is a rare talent.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
~ Awesome Avatar by the phantastic Phase ~Spoiler
Elflad
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2015-05-29, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-05-29, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Just a plain old regular wallet like you buy in a store, capable of captchaloguing the entire planet Earth from outer space.
You know, every once in a while I get the feeling that some of the things in Homestuck are ever so slightly ridiculous.
That's not a recent development.
Actually, I noticed several lessons being revisited over the course of Rosesprite-related happenings:
1. Don't turn your back on the body.
2. TT: I think the true purpose of this game is to see how many qualifiers we can get to precede the word "self" and still understand what we're talking about.
3. TG: skepticism is the crutch of cinematic troglodytes
Gotta say, kind of disappointed in Dave there. I do appreciate that we are dealing with forces that if handled recklessly will nullify the basic ability of intelligent beings in all real and hypothetical planes of existence to give a ****...
... but SBURB has always had this whole narrative, even mythological aspect to it. Dave was just talking about how cliche Rose's quest seemed on the surface! But he doesn't seem to quite grasp the idea that he and his friends exist to be players of this game and to fill the narrative / mythological roles provided for them. Or, alternately, the roles that he and his friends have been provided for.
Then again, maybe Dave is blocking out some of the more existentially horrifying implications of their origins.
Incidentally, why have they moved to talking about the quest stuff as optional? Like, okay, maybe some of it is, but I thought that getting the grist hoard from your planet's denizen was supposed to be necessary for the Ultimate Alchemy. But Vriska makes it sound like the hoards are already available and even talks about Rose encountering her denizen in particular as simply a possibility. What's the deal with that, I ask! What even is the deal.
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2015-05-29, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
the deal is that hussie decided to create this huge and convoluted plot involving horned aliens and green skull monsters over actually exploring the already grand epic and interesting plot he had about the game itself. and now he's trying to more or less write out the actually good plot in favor of the one where everyone obsesses over a green guy they've never met.
Avy by Thormag
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2015-05-31, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Homestuck had always been about the internet and its myriad inhabitants, with the plot acting as a vehicle for Hussie's loving satire of it rather than being especially important in it's own right. Caliborn is about how 'The Internet' can destroy, Calliope represents how it can act as a muse in its own right.
Avatar from Gunnerkrigg Court.
SpoilerPrevious avatar courtesy of CoffeeIncluded - of Kurt, from theToes in the WaterKnee DeepAgainst the currentStormy Seas campaign.
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2015-05-31, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
to be honest, I didn't get that impression. The Ultimate Riddle sure was mentioned, but it was never really that important and was only mentioned when the trolls got into things, which by then I think was pretty much the point where Lord English was going to be a thing. that and it was mentioned by trolls who didn't really have all the information at their disposal and were just as in the dark about everything.
that and I'm pretty sure trolls have always been in Homestuck, their introduction is too gradual and natural to be a shift in writing. that and what would the so-called original plot of the game itself be? its basically just light kingdom against dark kingdom and four people learning to become kings, generic wish-fulfillment "peasant-to-king" kind of stuff, with pretty much all the involved characters being literal archetypical cutouts aside from the players themselves, and we've shifted to what, actual characters with personalities, flaws, foibles, disagreements, problems that don't feel like they're set up and artificially structured?
I don't really see what Homestuck could've become if the trolls never came in aside from being a completely boring and trod out plot aside from the "create a new planet" thing which would just be "the end" to a generic kill the dark lord plot where the happy ending is them making a new society of Earth. I mean, the comic really started to get good when it started going off the rails from that plot, [S] Descend is probably the best thing that could've ever happened to Homestuck, providing a good way to shake everything up and start going in far more interesting directions.
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2015-06-01, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
While I agree that only following the game would have been a boring plot, I always felt it was skipped over too quickly. Maybe that's because I could do an archive binge through it all my first time, but really, the whole planets and their themes, the imps, even the house building weren't really relevant.
The involvement of the trolls felt like a veteran game player learning all the quick trics and cheats to a beginning player (which was what it was). While that may be understandable, everyone who had an older brother stand behind his back while playing a game first time knows it's not beneficial to your game enjoyment.
I personally would have liked it if the game, the way it's supposed to be played, it's quests and objectives, would be actually relevant to the eventual plot. Now it's only the exceptions that are relevant: only the broken sessions, the game glitches and the game cheats actually matter.Last edited by Murk; 2015-06-01 at 01:24 PM.
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2015-06-01, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Homestuck is supposed to be a comic about growing up and and Sburb the game is supposed to be to. and while everyone obeys rules in society, a big part of growing up is learning that the rules of things and what is expected is not always how things turn out and that you have to figure out how to adapt to messes and problems you didn't prepare for or expect, because if they stuck to the actual game, what would change about them? how would it be any different from any other game but more immersive, if they actually stuck to the rules and everything went as expected? thats not really how life works.
I don't see why your so attached to the game as its "meant" to be played- its canonical that a vast majority of the games are null sessions and that successfully making a new world is actually pretty rare, its very possible that there is no right way to play it at all- life does not care about what is the right way, it cares about whether it works or not. its a common fan theory on the MSPA boards that the game is designed to go off the rails and force people into unplanned situations to grow up better, and I personally like that.
the fact that these derailings are often because of the players own screwups, only means that it reinforces the idea of growing up, apart of which is learning to recognize your own mistakes and how to fix them after the fact. what really be the point of a game where they did all this perfectly? they'd learn nothing.
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2015-06-01, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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- Hell's Heart
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
Spoiler: UPDORTSo... wait, where has Jade met Alt!Calliope before?
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2015-06-01, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Land of Stone and Stars
Re: MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8
SpoilerProbably while she was dead before the Cascade. During early Act 6 she says she had a very informative dream while she was dead that made all her time watching the clouds of Skaia seem trivial and inconsequential. Since this was before the Cascade, it wouldn't have altered due to John's canon hopping.Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian