4Eberron?

[ImaginaryDragon]

I'm not too familiar with Eberron, but I was thinking about running a game there. There's not a whole lot out there for 4E Eberron, so I've looked through some of the 3.5 stuff. I can't find 4E stats for quori, daelkyr, and a bunch of other critters, but it seems odd for them to gloss over two of the most common "big bad" groups. If nothing officia exists, are there good fanbrewed stats for them?

[Laserlight]

I can't find 4E stats for quori, daelkyr, and a bunch of other critters?

For quori, as I recall, creatures possessed by them use the normal statistics for that creature. There are stats for a couple of Inspired assasins under the name Dreaming Dark.

[Afgncaap5]

Yeah, one of my biggest complaints about the 4e Eberron books was the fact that I could never find the monsters I wanted unless I already knew where in the book it would be. Generally I could just use common sense, but often I was left wondering if a certain monster really didn't exist or if I just wasn't looking in the right place.

[RedMage125]

I just hated the whole 4e treatment of Eberron. It works great in 3.5e, and the 5e Eberron playtest has been good, but 4e did a horrible job with it.

Mind you, I like 4e, and their treatment of Dark Sun was amazing, just not Eberron.

Keith Baker has said that he had some issues with the way it was done, too.

[Lord_Kimboat]

I've actually had a lot of success in running 4e in Eberron - the biggest problem is trying to get the whole 'points of light' idea into some highly settled areas.

Most of my adventures have been urban or involved themes of war and I will admit that I never really used too much in the way of monsters anyway - it was almost always fighting other people of one type or another.

Anyway, I'd suggest the Eberron Campaign Guide which I think even has many of the Eberron specific monsters in it.

[Nightgaun7]

I just hated the whole 4e treatment of Eberron. It works great in 3.5e, and the 5e Eberron playtest has been good, but 4e did a horrible job with it.

Mind you, I like 4e, and their treatment of Dark Sun was amazing, just not Eberron.

Keith Baker has said that he had some issues with the way it was done, too.

Can you elaborate?

[RedMage125]

Can you elaborate?

It was on the WotC forums. Keith Baker (under his forum name, Hellcow) mentioned he was dissatisfied with the way Dragonmarks, especially, were handled. While he understands the desire to make them more balanced, he felt they lost a lot of what made them unique and special.

[georgie_leech]

It was on the WotC forums. Keith Baker (under his forum name, Hellcow) mentioned he was dissatisfied with the way Dragonmarks, especially, were handled. While he understands the desire to make them more balanced, he felt they lost a lot of what made them unique and special.

In other words, in 3e in some ways the Dragonmarks could be character defining, but the general design of 4e made them minor bonuses at best. I wonder if they might not have been better suited for some sort of hybrid class without a full version. As terrible as they often are, they definitely have a dramatic effect on your character.

[masteraleph]

In other words, in 3e in some ways the Dragonmarks could be character defining, but the general design of 4e made them minor bonuses at best. I wonder if they might not have been better suited for some sort of hybrid class without a full version. As terrible as they often are, they definitely have a dramatic effect on your character.

Also, several of them are really, really powerful- Mark of Storm, in particular, is pretty character defining, because being able to slide on all your attacks, and then having other things that increase your slide, is amazing. If all the other ones ran at that power level, they might have fit that description.

[INDYSTAR188]

In my game the players spent Heroic-tier in Forgotten Realms, then when fighting the BBEG he fled through a 'rift' and was able to escape to Khorvaire. They then spent most of Paragon in Sharn and the surrounding country of Breland. It has been a blast and they regularly travel from place to place on business.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

I thought/think the 4E adaptation of Eberron was superb. Sure, Dragonmarks may have worked better as a Character Theme - and I love the hybrid class idea above - or even as a Multiclass but, aside, from that, it worked/works really well.

For me, the 3.5E Eberron books are the ones where WotC really showed they had lost control of the 3.5E ruleset. While the fluff is great, the crunchy bits - and especially the really poorly-designed prestige classes - are possibly the nadir of official 3.5E design.

Fortunately, even with bad design, the fluff parts of 3.5E books are great and are still useful regardless of edition.

[T.G. Oskar]

I thought/think the 4E adaptation of Eberron was superb. Sure, Dragonmarks may have worked better as a Character Theme - and I love the hybrid class idea above - or even as a Multiclass but, aside, from that, it worked/works really well.

For me, the 3.5E Eberron books are the ones where WotC really showed they had lost control of the 3.5E ruleset. While the fluff is great, the crunchy bits - and especially the really poorly-designed prestige classes - are possibly the nadir of official 3.5E design.

Fortunately, even with bad design, the fluff parts of 3.5E books are great and are still useful regardless of edition.

The problem with Dragonmarks is that WotC is binding them to the concept of a feat. Even in 3.5, Dragonmark feats weren't specifically impressive, without the supporting system behind (PrCs, specific items, etc). In 4e, and EVEN in 5e, they're keeping it as feats, which hinders what they can offer (4e making them variants of Ritual Caster with some minor benefits; 5e making them variants of Magical Initiate but slightly more powerful due to how feats tend to work in that system).

However, I have a rather serious discrepancy in terms of 3.5 Eberron design. I find that Forgotten Realms IS the worst offender in terms of 3.5 design - many of the out-of-Core broken crunch was born in FR supplements. You may claim that the Artificer (which isn't really broken; it's how magic items are designed which gives it so much flexibility) and the Planar Shepherd PrC are the epitome of broken, but I would like to point that the Incantatrix, the Chosen of Mystra, most of the problem spells, the Spellfire Wielder feat and other such examples are born in Faerun, not to mention the usually funky choices like Lesser Aasimar. Found I needed to clear that out, or at least point it; 3.5 Eberron had a solid set of crunch, which was quite functional. More than that, it was daring, since something like the Warforged, the first genuine (YMMV) attempt at making a construct character, wouldn't have existed if it weren't because of Eberron, and it wasn't particularly more or less broken than a human (in fact, less since the human is incredibly flexible in that regard).

On the other hand, and this may be a reflection of bias, but...I really don't stomach many things that happened in 4e Eberron. I don't mind Dragonborn - Argonessen IS Dragonland, and thus they could be refluffed into always existing there, but I have to draw the line at Eladrin being Feywild immigrants and Baator somehow existing in Eberron like if it always did, introducing D&D normative to a setting that was designed to avoid it altogether. Particularly since it reduces the worth of the traditional fiends of the setting, the Rakshasa Rajahs that conform the Lords of Dust. This is more fluff-related than crunch-related, though; as you mention, 3.5 fluff is really good, and disregarding stuff like the Feywild (*coughcoughThelansi!coughcough*), the Shadowfell (*coughcoughDolurrh!coughcough*) and Baator (I won't even feign coughing; that is an aberration to lore) makes it smoother. Some stuff ends up being lost, but not so much as to make the setting unplayable (compare to Faerun and the Spellplague, for example).

[RedMage125]

The problem with Dragonmarks is that WotC is binding them to the concept of a feat. Even in 3.5, Dragonmark feats weren't specifically impressive, without the supporting system behind (PrCs, specific items, etc). In 4e, and EVEN in 5e, they're keeping it as feats, which hinders what they can offer (4e making them variants of Ritual Caster with some minor benefits; 5e making them variants of Magical Initiate but slightly more powerful due to how feats tend to work in that system).

WotC is binding them to the concept of a feat because a theme MUST be chosen at first level, and the whole idea behind a dragonmark is that they are NOT birthmarks, they may show up during any point in a person's life.

However, I have a rather serious discrepancy in terms of 3.5 Eberron design. I find that Forgotten Realms IS the worst offender in terms of 3.5 design - many of the out-of-Core broken crunch was born in FR supplements. You may claim that the Artificer (which isn't really broken; it's how magic items are designed which gives it so much flexibility) and the Planar Shepherd PrC are the epitome of broken, but I would like to point that the Incantatrix, the Chosen of Mystra, most of the problem spells, the Spellfire Wielder feat and other such examples are born in Faerun, not to mention the usually funky choices like Lesser Aasimar.

Don't know if that's really a fair comparison. Forgotten Realms has always been kind of high-powered compared to everything else. Especially for spellcasters. Incantatrix is a fine prestige class when it's played in Forgotten Realms only and the enemy is also having access to things like Shadow Weave Adept, and the numerous spells in FR-only books, or you are fighting ridiculous monsters like phaerimms. I don't think Spellfire Wielder is a fair bone to pick, given that the feat's ONLY prerequisite is "ask your DM, he'll probably say no". Spellfire, and the accompanying section describing it, flat-out tell DMs that it is INCREDIBLY overpowered.

Found I needed to clear that out, or at least point it; 3.5 Eberron had a solid set of crunch, which was quite functional. More than that, it was daring, since something like the Warforged, the first genuine (YMMV) attempt at making a construct character, wouldn't have existed if it weren't because of Eberron, and it wasn't particularly more or less broken than a human (in fact, less since the human is incredibly flexible in that regard).

3.5e Eberron was amazing. And the Warforged was an INCREDIBLY balanced race...as long as you weren't playing kick-in-the-door style games that did not go above level 5. Because then they seemed REALLY overpowered. Which is the discussions I've gotten into a lot over the years. At level 1, a Warforged with Adamantine Body can have an AC of 19 without a shield AND have Damage Reduction, something no other class can pull off that quick. But those that think this is OP negelect to remember that a Fighter with Full plate and a tower shield can REMOVE his armor and shield in order to climb a cliff...or jump a chasm...or swim. A Warforged cannot.
Basically, for people who only play kick-in-the-door style games...yes, the warforged is a slightly more powerful option and is thus very attractive. But it's still very balanced overall.

On the other hand, and this may be a reflection of bias, but...I really don't stomach many things that happened in 4e Eberron. I don't mind Dragonborn - Argonessen IS Dragonland, and thus they could be refluffed into always existing there, but I have to draw the line at Eladrin being Feywild immigrants and Baator somehow existing in Eberron like if it always did, introducing D&D normative to a setting that was designed to avoid it altogether. Particularly since it reduces the worth of the traditional fiends of the setting, the Rakshasa Rajahs that conform the Lords of Dust. This is more fluff-related than crunch-related, though; as you mention, 3.5 fluff is really good, and disregarding stuff like the Feywild (*coughcoughThelansi!coughcough*), the Shadowfell (*coughcoughDolurrh!coughcough*) and Baator (I won't even feign coughing; that is an aberration to lore) makes it smoother. Some stuff ends up being lost, but not so much as to make the setting unplayable (compare to Faerun and the Spellplague, for example).

Like I said before, even Keith Baker had some issues with the changes that were made.

I don't mind Dragonborn in Argonessen (after all, I've had a similar continent-of-dragons-occupied-by-draconic-humanoids in my home campaign since before Eberron came out). But they didn't STAY there. The just HAD to put them in Khorvaire. Oh, and suddenly gnomes are Fey exiles? Baator I didn''t mind, actually, since the fluff for it was that it was pretty much a prison plane, and NOT Baator as we know it in other settings.

I think the way they handled Eladrin was one of the more redeeming aspects, actually. You basically have Eladrin as a race most people have NEVER seen before, because they stick to their homes, and you have the implication that the Mourning caused PLANAR-WIDE destruction that devastated the area not only of Cyre, but the shockwave affected the Feyspires ALL OVER. So now you have a race leaving these fantastical cities for the first time. It makes them new, and creates a sense of wonder and not-belonging for an eladrin character.

[masteraleph]

WotC is binding them to the concept of a feat because a theme MUST be chosen at first level, and the whole idea behind a dragonmark is that they are NOT birthmarks, they may show up during any point in a person's life.

Not sure that's true. By the end of 4e, the rule was that themes could be retrained (see Heroes of the Elemental Chaos), but that wasn't explicitly the rule earlier. But I'm also pretty sure that Eberron preceded Dark Sun in publication, so they weren't really thinking about themes yet at that point- they hadn't really been created.

[GPuzzle]

Pretty much. IIRC, I don't think PHB3 was out when the EPG was released.

[T.G. Oskar]

WotC is binding them to the concept of a feat because a theme MUST be chosen at first level, and the whole idea behind a dragonmark is that they are NOT birthmarks, they may show up during any point in a person's life.

Like a few others, I feel that 3.5 Dragonmarks could have been represented better as Bloodlines, the Unearthed Arcana variant rule that sacrificed up to 3 points for a few boosts. Since each true Dragonmark belongs to the same family, it's fitting.

Certainly, 4e has it a tad harder, but if trying to make it work, it could have been done as like the unique FR multiclass (the one related to the Spellplague), where you could replace some of your powers with Dragonmark powers, and tying everything to Heroic/Least, Paragon/Lesser and Epic/Greater, with a Paragon Path or special Paragon/Epic feat unlocking the Siberys power. Rituals are pretty cool, and cover most of what were SLAs in 3.5, but you could expand a bit with a few practical powers. Mark of Sentinel is really weak without actual combat powers, whereas Mark of Storm and Mark of Warding are really good (Mark of Storm usually ridiculously so, and Mark of Warding being a superb boon to any Defender class).

Don't know if that's really a fair comparison. Forgotten Realms has always been kind of high-powered compared to everything else. Especially for spellcasters. Incantatrix is a fine prestige class when it's played in Forgotten Realms only and the enemy is also having access to things like Shadow Weave Adept, and the numerous spells in FR-only books, or you are fighting ridiculous monsters like phaerimms. I don't think Spellfire Wielder is a fair bone to pick, given that the feat's ONLY prerequisite is "ask your DM, he'll probably say no". Spellfire, and the accompanying section describing it, flat-out tell DMs that it is INCREDIBLY overpowered.

I find it fair, if going by mechanics alone. Eberron may be a "low-powered" game, but the intention is that the PCs WILL become really powerful and handle the stuff that's simply lying there, while still worrying about the global powers that may outmatch them in resources. However, mechanically, the only things you can consider broken from 3.5 Eberron were the Planar Shepherd (and only because of two planes; the others aren't so broken, in fact) and MAAAYBE the Sovereign Speaker because of the bunch of domains, but that's just pushing it a bit. In an "all books open" kind of campaign, where you can probably refluff stuff from any officially supported campaign setting (let's just add in Dragonlance, but only the Campaign Setting book, for example), FR content is much more broken than Eberron content. PO/TO usually relies on ignoring campaign boundaries, which applies in nearly all editions after the 3rd.

3.5e Eberron was amazing. And the Warforged was an INCREDIBLY balanced race...as long as you weren't playing kick-in-the-door style games that did not go above level 5. Because then they seemed REALLY overpowered. Which is the discussions I've gotten into a lot over the years. At level 1, a Warforged with Adamantine Body can have an AC of 19 without a shield AND have Damage Reduction, something no other class can pull off that quick. But those that think this is OP negelect to remember that a Fighter with Full plate and a tower shield can REMOVE his armor and shield in order to climb a cliff...or jump a chasm...or swim. A Warforged cannot.
Basically, for people who only play kick-in-the-door style games...yes, the warforged is a slightly more powerful option and is thus very attractive. But it's still very balanced overall.

It's the same kind of feeling as the 3.5 Monk: really overpowered at first sight, but you could see the problems. Limited healing abilities meant they needed a way to recover their HP, which can really be a hassle if you get hit a lot...which is usually a problem for Warforged martial characters, which are intended to get hit a lot. What really would make them "overpowered" are the immunities, but they aren't so difficult to get if you know where to look for. In the optimization meta-game, the Warforged could range from a really solid option (kick in the door) to useful but not overwhelmingly good (spellcaster; particularly since immunities don't really replace the lack of bonuses to mental scores, or downright penalties to them).

Like I said before, even Keith Baker had some issues with the changes that were made.

I don't mind Dragonborn in Argonessen (after all, I've had a similar continent-of-dragons-occupied-by-draconic-humanoids in my home campaign since before Eberron came out). But they didn't STAY there. The just HAD to put them in Khorvaire. Oh, and suddenly gnomes are Fey exiles? Baator I didn''t mind, actually, since the fluff for it was that it was pretty much a prison plane, and NOT Baator as we know it in other settings.

I think the way they handled Eladrin was one of the more redeeming aspects, actually. You basically have Eladrin as a race most people have NEVER seen before, because they stick to their homes, and you have the implication that the Mourning caused PLANAR-WIDE destruction that devastated the area not only of Cyre, but the shockwave affected the Feyspires ALL OVER. So now you have a race leaving these fantastical cities for the first time. It makes them new, and creates a sense of wonder and not-belonging for an eladrin character.

That's a part of the problem: 4e is usually too strict with racial fluff. Eladrin ALWAYS are Feywild immigrants, and so do Gnomes (probably one of the worse interpretations of the race IMO, but that's just me; not really intending to ignite a war since Gnomes are sensitive business). Likewise, Dragonborn had an ancient empire and are now spread out after their fall, and Tieflings also had an ancient empire but have it worse because of an ancestral curse. Tying all of that to Eberron made the setting a bit off, moreso with some misses (there are no Half-Giants, for example, which are rare but still exist in Sarlona alongside the Eneko; Goliaths really don't make good Half-Giant replacements fluff-wise, even if crunch-wise they make perfect sense); the bigger problem here is that Eberron already made somewhat radical fluff changes, so it was the equivalent of hammering the fluff of PoL into the setting. It could have been done better (i.e. Dragonborn being natives of Argonessen and probably respected by the Seren).

[MoutonRustique]

For the marks - there was someone who did an incredible take with 4e.

They were built in two parts :
1 - a theme to represent being a house scion*
2 - feats that unlocked the marks themselves
* there was also one that included being a "lost" child of the house

This felt like a best of both worlds : a perfect mesh of fluff and crunch (lore and mechanics). Sadly, I have lost the link, and I first saw it on the WotC forums - and searching those things is something I am not ready to try again...