Daily resource economy

[balam_br]

My first post in this forum... i had some hard time finding an active 4 ed forum nowadays... i played d&d since 1993 with rules cyclopedia... but im kind of new to 4 ed, played in some short games and gmed short campaigns (4 - 8 sessions), but im still struggling to understand how to properly GM it...

The question.. im used to run encounter driven games, story driven games... with one big encounter per session per in game day... sometimes i use two... but i think thats it...

the daily powers and healing surge mechanics of 4 ed REALLY encourage a 4 encounter/day game... i tried that but i feel really bored filling the game with small unimportant encounters just to drain healing Surges...

I tried to use just high level encounters (party lvl +3 or party lvl +4)... but in the end, with lots of dailies, they had hard time hitting the enemies, but using all dailies, the fight was easy anyway...

I think using higher level encounters would had the trouble of the monsters being almost unhittable... and the CA of the nom defenders just wont make any difference...

So... there is some kind of easy house rule to make 1 or 2 encounters/day battles that are still threatening, but not overwhelming
Thanks for the help in advance!

[Dimers]

My solution to this problem -- theoretical, not tried out yet -- is to slow down recharging of daily resources, including surges. Here's a clip from the houserules of the campaign I'm slowly putting together. I'll be watching this thread to see any relevant advice for either the "supply side" or the "demand side" of this problem.

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You won't often face four combats in one morning-to-night game day, due to the lack of places that have lots of monsters in bite-sized groups. But I want daily resources to be a meaningful limitation. So you can only get the full benefits of an extended rest after certain major encounters, before certain others, or (if nothing else) once you've gone through four encounters. There are only a few encounter powers in the entire game that might need a restriction on recharging, and I'll handle those on a case-by-case basis. When you rest overnight, you get back one healing surge even if you're not getting the other benefits of an extended rest. With a Hard DC check for Endurance skill, you can get one more surge back. And there may be places you can roll a skill to recharge one daily power with an overnight rest in an appropriate location. For example, a cave thrumming with psychic energy would give you a chance to recharge one daily psychic or psionic power while camping if you make an Arcana roll. A military encampment would offer a chance at recharging a daily martial power with a Warcraft* or Athletics roll. You're connecting with what drives you to your peak performance.

( * homebrew skill in my game )

Until you get all the benefits of an extended rest, you get the benefits of not resting -- your progress toward milestones remains, you don't lose accumulated action points, and so on.

Since there's generally a lot of time between combats, you can use healing powers and abilities repeatedly to improve the benefit of each surge. For example, a party with a warlord could use inspiring word twice, take a short rest, use inspiring word twice again, and so on, gaining the bonus dice of healing on all surges spent. I don't object to this tactic when the characters have enough time to use it.

[Yakk]

Here is a proposal. It leaves some daily resources refresh in the hands of players, and some in the hands of the DM.

* A long rest takes 1 week of rest in comfort (civilization, safety). In worse conditions, pulling off a long rest is a skill challenge, take longer, or be impossible.

* Your daily powers all refresh when you gain a level.

* On a significant achievement (defeat a big boss, solve a big mystery, open a portal to hell and jump through, etc), your daily power/other resources get a refresh roll. The target is determined by the DM. (4+, 5+, 6+ on a d6, one roll per expended power).

* Every day you don't sleep/meditate for 6+ hours, you lose a healing surge. If you have none to lose, you risk fall unconscious uncontrollably (DM should ask for endurance checks with a DC equal to half the hours since your last sleep, modified by circumstance, at inopportune times.)

* If you get 6+ hours of safe rest in a day, you can roll to regain healing surges. Roll endurance+max healing surges. Every 10 your score you regain 1 healing surge.

[kieza]

I also prefer for daily resources to be rarer...so, my houserule is that extended rests can only be taken between adventures. Since my adventures tend to be relatively short (4-8 encounters), that works out nicely.

On the flip side, I also use "respites." During a long fight, when the players could very well run out of encounter powers, they get a respite at certain points of the fight, like when they defeat an elite or bloody a solo. A respite allows them to recharge one power, and regain their second wind. It makes up for the scarcity of daily resources, and it also introduces some strategic thinking (Do we focus on the elite in order to get the respite, or do we take out the swarm of minions that are giving us the death of a thousand cuts?)

[TurboGhast]

My house circumvention to how easy it is to get daily resources back is currently lean heavily on using lengthened encounters where all of your daily resources are expected to be used in a single, tough fight. Rather than having a fight with twenty minions, and then a fight with a solo monster, I would have a fight with both a solo monster and twenty minions simultaneously.

[DragonBaneDM]

Momma said knock your PCs out.

No but seriously. What's your party layout? If you want them to feel pressured and challenged by their fight, then let's up your encounter planning game. No reason to rebuild the house if we just need to tamper with the fung schwing of a couple of rooms!

Try throwing them a doomsday device skill challenge with waves of endless minions. A collapsing tower that they need to climb up in order to survive. A possessed child/NPC that's summoning demons that are trying to vie for control of her.

Or heck. Ramp up monster damage a good bit. Even the MM3 didn't get it exactly right.

[Laserlight]

I've suggested to my DM to say "You are attacked by fey panthers. Roll a d20. If you roll 16+, you finish the skirmish undamaged. If you roll 4-. you need to spend two surges. Everyone else, spend one surge. You can spend a daily in lieu of a surge."

[UndertakerSheep]

13th Age has a rule for this sort of things that works perfectly with 4e:

Full Heal-Up

After approximately four battles, characters earn a full heal-up, though the exact number is determined by the GM. Tougher battle can mean more frequent heal-ups, and vice versa.

After a full heal-up, your hit points reset to full. You regain any recoveries (read: healing surges) you've used. All expended powers are regained or recharged. ('Daily' powers are actually 'per heal-up.')

If the party is short of a heal-up but is too beat up to press on, they can retreat and take a full heal-up, which entails a campaign loss. (See Flee.)

Flee

Fleeing is a party action. On any PC's turn, any player can propose that all the characters flee the fight. If all players agree, they successfully retreat, carrying any fallen heroes away with them. The party suffers a campaign loss. The point of this rule is to encourage daring attacks and to make retreating interesting on the level of story rather than tactics.

[Urpriest]

My advice is to just have faster-paced stories. I've run story-driven mystery games where the players seek out encounters across a city, and I never had trouble fitting in four encounters per day.

[balam_br]

Thanks for all the replies... a lot of good ideas here... im gonna try some of them in my next games and see what happens...

"No but seriously. What's your party layout"

A Dragnborn Paladin, a Dwarf Fighter Battlerager, and a tiefling Warlock... sometimes i put a NPC leader to walk with them, (an Eladrin Warlord and a Dwarf Cleric already had this Job) but i think im gonna cut this... with just 3 players i have little xp budget to build my encounters ;-)

One more question... i read somewhere in this forum that 4 minions isnt as hard as a same level monter... so, using 6 minions would be too much? my party has little area attacks... just the Dragonborn Breath...

thanks for all the advice!

[Tegu8788]

The problem is, even if the four minions equal a normal monster in total damage output and defenses, a couple hits on a monster doesn't change its damage output, whereas a couple hits on minions drastically reduces the damage they can do.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but that one jumps out to me.

[Yakk]

Except MM3+ minions tend to deal *more* damage than 1/4 an even-level monster each.

They are just easy to kill with AOE and autodamage. In my opinion, they are too easy to kill with autodamage. Originally most autodamage came from "miss" lines (which minions are immune to), but later on lots of autodamage arrived which pops minions like bubbles.

A problem with minions is that they tend to have to group to deal decent damage, and grouping makes them AOE able. Ranged minions are thus far more dangerous if there isn't much cover.

[Dimers]

Ranged minions are thus far more dangerous if there isn't much cover.

Particularly if there's cover for them. Ranged minion lurkers ... *shudder*

[its_all_ogre]

I would use additional monsters of the same level or lower rather than higher level monsters.

this means they are no harder to hit.

I used a massive encounter against my players with additional enemies popping into the fight through a variety of doors when they attacked a barracks.
I actually enabled characters to regain encounter powers at specific intervals in the fight as the fight had a minimum duration of 20 rounds (as the 20th round was the arrival of the final reinforcements).

specifically with the party you have I feel they will struggle due to lack of decent leader giving healing, I see that you often NPC a leader which I would find essential.

on the point of minions, as others have noted, the main issue is they pop easily with certain builds and also the tend to have to clump due to there simply being more of them
but yes minion ranged enemies are a horrible thing to happen, especially if they have good range and are spread over a large map!

[DragonBaneDM]

What dailies are giving you trouble? I'm guessing Rain of Blows or some other auto damage is a big deal, but what else?

[Kimera757]

My players tell me I run a hard game. They have fewer more powerful encounters that force them to use dailies to survive. They often face level +4 encounters with their number of equal-level elites and stuff like that.

You don't need to use more, boring encounters. Just use harder ones.

[Nightgaun7]

My players tell me I run a hard game. They have fewer more powerful encounters that force them to use dailies to survive. They often face level +4 encounters with their number of equal-level elites and stuff like that.

You don't need to use more, boring encounters. Just use harder ones.

I second this to a degree, but be aware that unless your players are well built and well coordinated they'll miss a lot vs +4 Elites. And even +4 regular enemies to an extent. If you want, and depending on the party damage output, up the HP instead. I know the conventional wisdom is that monsters have a loot of hit points, but I think it's better to hit 5 times and kill rather than miss 3 times, hit 4, and kill (some exaggeration, since they'll miss even regular enemies some of the time, but you get the idea).

[Yakk]

Up-leveled enemies over-encourage accuracy optimization.

Accuracy optimization is already ridiculously powerful in 4e. By regularly using over-leveled foes, you make it even *more* powerful.

If an unoptimized character is hitting on 11s, a +5 accuracy edge boosts non-crit damage output by 50%.

If an unoptimized character is hitting on 16s, a +5 accuracy edge boosts non-crit damage output by 100%.

If an unoptimized character is hitting on 19s, a +5 accuracy edge boosts non-crit damage output by 250%.

If your characters are pulling off "4 round kill even level foe" damage output, their average damage per round needs to float around Level*2+6.

If +5 accuracy cost 5 feats worth of customization, then the equivalent damage feats at level 11 would have to deal 5.6 damage per round each. At 1.5 hits/round that is 3.7 damage per hit. Which is charge-cheese level quality of damage feats. At 0.5 hits/round, that is 11.2 damage per hit.

In short, 4e fails to control accuracy enough: it is too cheap to boost in almost every circumstance compared to alternatives. Feats that boost your damage output by dealing more damage are ridiculously rare. About the only way to match accuracy boosting is to build blender builds that swing many times, or builds that don't care if they hit (or are better when they miss).

This can be kept under control by resisting the temptation to use consistently over-leveled foes. At low levels, over-leveled foes are neat, in that they are both harder to hit, hit harder, hit more often and take more damage. By mid-high levels, their damage output becomes basically the same as even-level foes, as does their HP: they get gain more accuracy, and are harder to hit.

Instead of using over-leveled foes, use similar-level elites, more similar-level normal monsters, etc to make encounters harder. Heck, take a normal monster, and double its HP and damage output and XP value, and let it save against one condition of its choice at the start of its turn (including EoNT and End of Encounter conditions like Marks) (with +2 save bonus), to make de-facto elites.

Such monsters don't over-reward accuracy optimization, but should be roughly as difficult as a level+4 foe. And they hit like mack trucks, which is fun.

[Kimera757]

I second this to a degree, but be aware that unless your players are well built and well coordinated they'll miss a lot vs +4 Elites. And even +4 regular enemies to an extent. If you want, and depending on the party damage output, up the HP instead. I know the conventional wisdom is that monsters have a loot of hit points, but I think it's better to hit 5 times and kill rather than miss 3 times, hit 4, and kill (some exaggeration, since they'll miss even regular enemies some of the time, but you get the idea).

I think there might be some confusion there. The elites are the same level as the PCs. There's just one per PC, so it's a level +4 encounter (double XP).

[Nightgaun7]

I tried to use just high level encounters (party lvl +3 or party lvl +4)... but in the end, with lots of dailies, they had hard time hitting the enemies, but using all dailies, the fight was easy anyway...

I think using higher level encounters would had the trouble of the monsters being almost unhittable... and the CA of the nom defenders just wont make any difference...

My players tell me I run a hard game. They have fewer more powerful encounters that force them to use dailies to survive. They often face level +4 encounters with their number of equal-level elites and stuff like that.

You don't need to use more, boring encounters. Just use harder ones.

I was responding in general rather than just to your post. I know several GMs who have gotten into trouble following your advice about harder encounters without really understand "good hard" vs "bad hard".

Like I said, I sort of agree on upping encounter difficulty, if you go about it right. Although I personally would probably do two "normal+" encounters and a third big tough one rather than two difficult ones or one massive a super difficult one, unless it's a climax to an episode arc or something.

[neonchameleon]

So... there is some kind of easy house rule to make 1 or 2 encounters/day battles that are still threatening, but not overwhelming
Thanks for the help in advance!

An extended rest takes a long, lazy weekend rather than just 8 hours sleep. Make the PCs stop adventuring to get their abilities back. It really tightens up the game - and makes them want to actually avoid combats.

[MoutonRustique]

My first post in this forum... i had some hard time finding an active 4 ed forum nowadays... i played d&d since 1993 with rules cyclopedia... but im kind of new to 4 ed, played in some short games and gmed short campaigns (4 - 8 sessions), but im still struggling to understand how to properly GM it...

Hello!

The question.. im used to run encounter driven games, story driven games... with one big encounter per session per in game day... sometimes i use two... but i think thats it...

the daily powers and healing surge mechanics of 4 ed REALLY encourage a 4 encounter/day game... i tried that but i feel really bored filling the game with small unimportant encounters just to drain healing Surges...

Remember that characters can still die with healing surges left - there's no need to drain them all every single time.

I tried to use just high level encounters (party lvl +3 or party lvl +4)... but in the end, with lots of dailies, they had hard time hitting the enemies, but using all dailies, the fight was easy anyway...

I think using higher level encounters would had the trouble of the monsters being almost unhittable... and the CA of the nom defenders just wont make any difference...

Higher level encounters don't mean higher level foes! They just mean more of them, or stronger versions of them. Missing all the time is rarely fun - hitting all the time can get tedious, but much, much less so - so err on the side of hitting.

Also, when building encounters and using foes, try to have the foes hang around only as long as it takes for them to do their "thing" - defense is only important in that it lets the foe use his cool powers. Otherwise, offense is the name of the game. There are some situations where defense is the "cool thing" - like a bronze minotaur soldier being a PITA when trying to pass through a door to get to the balcony where the archers are raining doom and destruction.

So... there is some kind of easy house rule to make 1 or 2 encounters/day battles that are still threatening, but not overwhelming
Thanks for the help in advance!

No "rule" as such, but you will be able to find loads of advice!

Advice 1: create encounters that function in waves (minions are excellent for this)

Advice 2: create encounters where the goal is other than the destruction of the foes and will require PCs leave themselves open to attacks/take environmental damage. (Protecting NPCs is great for this.)

Advice 3: use threats that are highly dangerous and predictable while offering ways to avoid them (a room with "carvings" on the walls to offer climbing holds where a sheet of lightning passes at ground level every few rounds - use constructs that gain energy from the lightning but become extremely vulnerable while "charging up". The players either face the constructs that "heal" themselves or suffer through the lightning to destroy them faster.)
On second thought, this one doesn't really do what you're looking for, but I'm leaving it here in anyway...

Advice 3*(see above): use auto-damage situations as a form of "doom-clock". It is also important to offer an easy "out" of these situations that corresponds to failure, but of an acceptable kind. A classic example would be a room filled with fire (auto-damage) with magical/mechanical traps and spawns where the PCs need to open a "box" and grab a "thing" : the PCs can leave the room when they want and the spawned foes and traps don't follow - but they haven't gotten the "thing", so they'll have to try again.

Advice 4: have a few foes that can "dispel magic" and purge the buffs the players use. Don't over do it - this can feel like cheating.

Advice 5: create encounters where the PCs' abilities aren't the best use of their actions (canons, mind-control orbs, etc.) This is also a concept that should be used sparingly.

I've suggested to my DM to say "You are attacked by fey panthers. Roll a d20. If you roll 16+, you finish the skirmish undamaged. If you roll 4-. you need to spend two surges. Everyone else, spend one surge. You can spend a daily in lieu of a surge."

This is an interesting idea!

[Laserlight]

This is an interesting idea!

The idea was that we expect to encounter hostile wildlife, but those fights won't advance the storyline, and the only real effect will be to cost us some surges. So "you fought some wildlife, you won, but you're down three surges when you get to the enemy encampment. Now we can get started on the interesting fight."

[MoutonRustique]

The idea was that we expect to encounter hostile wildlife, but those fights won't advance the storyline, and the only real effect will be to cost us some surges. So "you fought some wildlife, you won, but you're down three surges when you get to the enemy encampment. Now we can get started on the interesting fight."

Indeed - but what I saw open up was a form of "traveling" mechanic (that D&D has lacked for... well, ever).

You could even be fairly open about the situations and then the players get to choose their path based on frequency/DC etc.

As an example - you must choose the path through the mountains!

Path of Karadrass - 1d6-2 encounters, DC hard, 1d4 surges
Mines of Moria - 1d4 encounters, DC easy (with one very hard), 1d4 surges
The passes - 2d6 encounters, DC medium, 1d4 surges

In this case - "the passes are being watched" means, you'll get pummeled if you choose that route. This information could be given straight out or couched in character knowledge.

You can then add-in some cool things like NPCs or rituals or "something" that provide easier DCs, fewer encounters, less deadly encounters, information on the what the different choices entail (DC difficulty, average encounters expected, etc.)

SCs are supposed to take care of this, I know, but a "standard" traveling subsystem is something I'd like to have.

[neonchameleon]

So... there is some kind of easy house rule to make 1 or 2 encounters/day battles that are still threatening, but not overwhelming
Thanks for the help in advance!

Simple. Mess with the Extended Rest rules. My version (playtested) is "To take an extended rest you need a long lazy weekend somewhere safe". And for a brutal campaign to make even trash mobs threatening a short rest can take 8 hours. This means if the PCs fight the easy encounters they won't have their powers left for later - it really changes the way people play.

The problem is, even if the four minions equal a normal monster in total damage output and defenses, a couple hits on a monster doesn't change its damage output, whereas a couple hits on minions drastically reduces the damage they can do.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but that one jumps out to me.

That's why four minions equal two normal monsters on damage output. They become less relevant at higher levels simply because the spellcasters get more and bigger AoE spells and therefore can fry larger groups in one go.

[SangoProduction]

I've suggested to my DM to say "You are attacked by fey panthers. Roll a d20. If you roll 16+, you finish the skirmish undamaged. If you roll 4-. you need to spend two surges. Everyone else, spend one surge. You can spend a daily in lieu of a surge."

"Can I use an extra healing surge for my friend instead of them?" -Guy who thinks he's helpful

[Laserlight]

"Can I use an extra healing surge for my friend instead of them?" -Guy who thinks he's helpful

I would say yes. In combat, a character can put himself in harm's way, either to draw attacks away from an ally or to do more damage.

[Yakk]

"Can I use an extra healing surge for my friend instead of them?" -Guy who thinks he's helpful

Roll a d20. On a 16+, you protect your ally. 15-, you fail to protect your ally. On a 4-, you both fail, and lose a surge.

[UrsusMimas]

13th Age goes the route of you get a full rest every 4 encounters. So the group could go weeks before they get their abilities back. or they could get multiple full rest in a dungeon.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

Firstly, for 4E to really work, you want your PCs to hit their targets. That means, if you're building a higher level encounter, use more monsters rather than higher-level monsters (and that also means be careful using soldiers because of their high AC).

Secondly, minions are your friend. With three PCs, their XP cost is so minimal that you can have lots and lots of them.

(snip) One more question... i read somewhere in this forum that 4 minions isnt as hard as a same level monter... so, using 6 minions would be too much? my party has little area attacks... just the Dragonborn Breath...

thanks for all the advice!

Um, no, minions rock. Keep reading! :)

Particularly if there's cover for them. Ranged minion lurkers ... *shudder*

Yep... or just simply minion artillery with a bit of cover and scattered about.

If I am going to build a big encounter that will be the only encounter for the day, I make sure it has lots of minion artillery. Also, when I use lots of minions, I typically include a leader with an aura that allows a minion to make a saving throw to avoid dying. (In my low level games, this might be called "Hold Your Guts In!" and is the signature ability of my Zhentarim NCOs.)

The dailies of a paladin, battlerager, and warlock are not going to have a lot of effect on minions. The extra damage doesn't matter, nor the rider effects if the attack does hit, so they're not going to be encounter changing unless they're used to target, in the example I gave, the leader whose aura is allowing the minions a second chance at survival.

And now we see the elegance of the 4E encounter system. It has an answer for almost any attempt at the PCs to establish some sort of superiority over the cunning of a well-prepared DM! :)