A Kingdom of Their Own: A Trio of Tieflings Play Kingmaker

[Coidzor]

If you were going to start over or make any revisions to exploration beyond what you've done, how would you tweak it?

Do you think you'd use hex-based exploration in any other contexts?

[Elricaltovilla]

If you were going to start over or make any revisions to exploration beyond what you've done, how would you tweak it?

Do you think you'd use hex-based exploration in any other contexts?

Were I to start from the beginning, I'd follow an AP path that's more like the age of colonialism, rather than just expansion of an existing kingdom's southern borders. The adventure would begin on a boat, with the PCs and some colonists being dropped off on the distant shore of a newly discovered land, and they'd be the subjects of one of a few different choices of large Empires (specifics depend on setting). I think that would be a much more sensible opening for a game about building a kingdom, one where you're building a kingdom right from the start.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hex-based exploration in any other contexts." It works adequately for the purpose it's presented as, but for purposes of exploring large areas, the difference between using a hex-grid and a square-grid is largely arbitrary.

[Coidzor]

Were I to start from the beginning, I'd follow an AP path that's more like the age of colonialism, rather than just expansion of an existing kingdom's southern borders. The adventure would begin on a boat, with the PCs and some colonists being dropped off on the distant shore of a newly discovered land, and they'd be the subjects of one of a few different choices of large Empires (specifics depend on setting). I think that would be a much more sensible opening for a game about building a kingdom, one where you're building a kingdom right from the start.

That makes sense. I was actually considering something along those lines myself after I read over the rules, though that's partially because my setting is rathet colonial.

No further mechanical or flavor tweaks you've thought about at this time, though?

I'm not sure what you mean by "hex-based exploration in any other contexts." It works adequately for the purpose it's presented as, but for purposes of exploring large areas, the difference between using a hex-grid and a square-grid is largely arbitrary.

I meant using a system of exploration where the group is moving from area to area instead of just handling it all narratively/glossing it over/reducing it to some skill challenges and encounters as they progress towards something like a lost city or whathaveyou.

For instance, would you consider something like kingmaker's exploration for exploring an island that one has been marooned on? Or any other context beyond territorial expansion?

[Elricaltovilla]

That makes sense. I was actually considering something along those lines myself after I read over the rules, though that's partially because my setting is rathet colonial.

No further mechanical or flavor tweaks you've thought about at this time, though?

I've already made some significant tweaks to the AP, and will continue to do so because of some plot related issues that crop up later in the AP. I'd go into more detail but my players read this too

I meant using a system of exploration where the group is moving from area to area instead of just handling it all narratively/glossing it over/reducing it to some skill challenges and encounters as they progress towards something like a lost city or whathaveyou.

For instance, would you consider something like kingmaker's exploration for exploring an island that one has been marooned on? Or any other context beyond territorial expansion?

The only real reason to track exploration like that is if you need that information later, and not just "we might have to go back here once or twice" but if it's going to be a constant reference point for your game. I'm sure there are other situations where such information might be necessary, but but exploration and colonization seems to be the main use I can conceive of.

[Coidzor]

I've already made some significant tweaks to the AP, and will continue to do so because of some plot related issues that crop up later in the AP. I'd go into more detail but my players read this too

The only real reason to track exploration like that is if you need that information later, and not just "we might have to go back here once or twice" but if it's going to be a constant reference point for your game. I'm sure there are other situations where such information might be necessary, but but exploration and colonization seems to be the main use I can conceive of.

I meant more generally than in terms of plot, but I am looking forward to that too.

That's what I was thinking, but I was curious as to whether you might have hit upon something else. I'll probably make a thread once I figure out how to phrase the opening post. :V

Looking forward to next update!

[upho]

I'd have to start making a whole lot more money off my writing for that to happen.

Just wanted you to know I'm working on that - me and soon probably some of my (way too rich) players have become patrons to hopefully give you a bit more decent pay.

You and the rest of the DSP crew deserve it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Session 22
In which the party begins exploration of the Troll Tower

This session was a bit short, due in large part to a discussion I had with my players about upcoming events (also they were late, but that's neither here nor there ). I won't spoil things, but with the end of this section of the AP coming up in a few sessions, I wanted to give my players some opportunity to plan ahead for their characters and the direction they want to take their kingdom.

---

The party inspects the dead body of Hargulka the troll, and strips him of his loot, acquiring a huge size set of studded leather armor, a huge sized Stalker's Mask, and a powerfully enchanted Huge size Longsword made of Adamantine.

Spoiler: DM's Notes

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So the sword's not actually that powerfully enchanted (+3 total), but the Stalking enchantment is actually kind of cool. I wouldn't make it a must have, but I'd put up there with Impact or a couple other enchantments on the "Thing's I'll get on my weapon once I run out of other ideas." So a good choice for a secondary or tertiary enchantment.

The party rests a bit as Ashena heals their battle wounds, during which time Skara reminds Ashena that she owes him waffles. The party searches around the tower to look for the entrance. The 50 ft. tower has only a single window, about 30 ft. up, and a single heavy wooden door with a raised portcullis. Deciding on the direct route, the party approaches the door and all three fail their perception checks to notice the portcullis has been booby trapped. The heavy iron gate falls down on the trio and only Akaru is nimble enough to avoid a more serious blow.

Unfortunately, he dives forward towards the door instead of back away from it and finds himself trapped in the narrow space between the portcullis and the door. Barely able to move, he asks his teammates to help lift the portcullis so he can get out. Ashena gets a wicked idea and reaches out to help Akaru only to begin tickling him. Unable to move effectively, he opts to tickle her back using his prehensile tail. This continues for a while, until Skara points out that they're kind of stuck.

With the help of Skara and Ashena, Akaru is able to lift the portcullis. It is at this time that Ashena realizes that she wants to keep the portcullis intact (for some reason) and laments the fact that they didn't bring Hargulka's sword over to prop the portcullis open. Unable to risk trapping Akaru again, the party helps him slip out and lets the portcullis fall. Ashena and Akaru take to the portcullis with their own adamantine weapons and carve through it in short order.

Spoiler: DM's Notes

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Part of this section was taken up by an extended and very confused conversation wherein my players used "Portcullis," "Door" and "Gate" interchangeably to refer to the Portcullis, the Door behind it and the Gate that served as the main entrance to the fortress. Word of advice: don't do this. Terminology is important people.

Ashena heals up the party again and they open the door and go into the tower proper. The inside of the tower is full of disturbed dust and cobwebs, broken furniture and a rug in the center that really tied the room together. A set of stairs on the far side of the room spirals up the tower, and a door is inset underneath the stairs that appears to lead down below the tower (or it might be a broom closet, who knows?). Ashena sweeps the area with detect magic and notices that the rug is somehow magical, but that the aura it gives off is warped somehow. She suggests Akaru approach the rug and investigate it further. He does so and when he reaches out to touch it, barely manages to pull his hand away before it's adhered to the rug by a sticky substance. Akaru then tries to get Ashena to come over and touch the rug but she refuses.

Instead, she goes and retrieves Hargulka's sword and passes it to Akaru so that he can attempt to investigate the rug further. Akaru slides the sword under the rug and tries to lift it, but the rug is too heavy even for his impressive strength. Ashena comes over to help and together they barely manage to lift the rug off the floor. Akaru tries to fling the rug off the floor, but it holds fast and locks a grip onto Hargulka's sword. It's at this time that Akaru identifies the rug as a mimic.

Akaru leaps into action at the same moment as the mimic rushes forward, and cleaves through it with a mighty Rising Zenith Strike. He cleaves the rug in two and the mimic dies a horrible, screeching death. Ashena congratulates Akaru on his ability to "cut a rug."

The mimic defeated, Ashena continues investigating the ground floor of the tower. She approaches the door on the far side and steps on a pressure plate. There is a rush of air and Ashena is struck by a poisoned dart and immediately falls over, fast asleep. Skara and Akaru spend a little time pointing at Ashena who is face-down, ass-up and snoring like a lumberjack, but eventually they wake her up. Still groggy, Ashena asks Skara what happened and he mentions that it's morning and that she now owes him waffles. Ashena locates a wood stove and starts it up, then goes outside. Looking at the sun, she realizes (due to a failed survival check) that she must have been asleep for at least 24 hours. While Ashena waits for the stove to heat up, the party opens the door and finds another spiral staircase descending down. Ashena throws a pebble with light cast on it down the stairs, but it reveals nothing because it's a spiral staircase and the rock disappears from view before showing anything of interest.

The party goes down the stairs and comes to a heavy oak door reinforced with iron bands. Akaru spots a small spider on the doorknob. Skara identifies the spider as a "door spider" a species that is often attracted to metal and so regularly makes its homes indoors. Door spiders are, of course, poisonous. Akaru slashes at the door handle and cleaves it off, but sends the spider flying up into the air where it lands on his head. Ashena screams, a lot. Akaru starts headbanging to try and remove the spider but only succeeds in angering it and gets bit (Nat 1 to headbang). At least Akaru manages to use his martial ability to prevent the door spider's poison from affecting him and eventually gets the spider out of his hair. As soon as the spider hits the ground, Ashena immediately smashes it with her Earthbreaker, using her most powerful maneuver Silver Knight's Blade to ensure its death. With no sign of the spider in the small crater she left in the floor, ashena pours some oil in the hole and lights it on fire, but otherwise has no confirmation that the spider is actually dead.

Spoiler: DM's Notes

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In case you don't know, the Door Spider is a reference to a scene from The Princess Bride (the book, not the movie). If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it as there's additional material that didn't make the cut for the movie. However, I strongly suggest looking for the abridged version as the author S. Morganstern has a tendency to ramble and meander off on tangents, which can make the original version a little hard to follow.

The party opens the basement door and finds a massive storeroom filled with all the raw material and trade goods the trolls had stolen, totaling 8 BP worth of stuff and that's where the session ends.

[Coidzor]

Cleaving off the door handle, because a cup and a plate is just not hot-blooded enough. XD

Sadly I've forgotten the Door Spider episode from that book.

It's almost surreal to hear about them doing something playful like tickle one another. That really came out of left field for me. Laughing at Ashena's butt being in the air somehow makes a lot more sense in comparison.

Granted, I suppose tail tickling is probably going to become a part of tiefling flirtation after they start getting a culture going....

[Elricaltovilla]

Cleaving off the door handle, because a cup and a plate is just not hot-blooded enough. XD

Sadly I've forgotten the Door Spider episode from that book.

It's almost surreal to hear about them doing something playful like tickle one another. That really came out of left field for me. Laughing at Ashena's butt being in the air somehow makes a lot more sense in comparison.

Granted, I suppose tail tickling is probably going to become a part of tiefling flirtation after they start getting a culture going....

The door spider was just a really tiny bit from The Princess Bride during the part where Inigo and Fezzik are going to rescue Wesley from the six fingered man. It's only like once sentence but for whatever reason it stuck with me.

The group is actually pretty funny, just typically much more inappropriate so it's hard to get stuff I can safely transcribe. I'm trying to focus more on their characterization and stuff going forward since I feel like I let that lack a little bit over the course of the campaign journal so far. The tickling thing was amusing and the prehensile tail is a whole lot more useful generally than the race trait it replaces, so I'm honestly tempted to make it a "standard" for tieflings. We'll see.

[Elricaltovilla]

Session 23
In which we explore the players reactions to imaginary spiders

Day 46(Still)

Having secured the basement and the mass of stolen goods taken by the trolls, the party returns to the main floor of the tower. While the party waits for the stove to heat up so that Ashena can make waffles, they decide to head upstairs and explore the upper floor of the tower. While climbing up the stairs, both Ashena and Skara hear the scuttling of eight tiny legs. Skara largely dismisses it, but Ashena seems unnerved. The second floor shows a fairly long hallway with four doors, two on each side. Ashena casts detect magic and notices that all four doors show signs of being magical or otherwise magically enhanced.

Upon seeing that the doors are magical, Akaru and Skara begin trying to convince Ashena to be the one to open them. Since flattery apparently gets you everywhere, she is ultimately convinced to be the party's door opener and takes her earthbreaker to the first door on the left. The heavy attack triggers a shock shield that zaps Ashena painfully, but otherwise doesn't seem to have any additional effects. Inside the room is a collection of dusty forgotten art of fantastic quality. Of particular note is a red marble statue of a nude elven woman. Stepping into the room, Ashena once again hears the sound of eight tiny legs scuttling towards her, however this time she is the only one to hear it. She leaves the room and charges the door across the hallway.

The door turns out to be an illusion and Ashena passes through without hitting anything. Instead, she manages to trip on a tripwire on the other side of the door. The only item in this room is a massive four poster bed with red silk curtains. Ashena's detect magic reveals that the bed possesses strong enchantment and abjuration magic, but there's something more. Ashena feels drawn to the bed, compelled to lie down on it.

As soon as she does, Ashena is paralyzed by the powerful magic curse on the bed. Being stuck on the bed and unable to even call out, she is forced to wait until Akaru steps into the room. He also fails the save to resist the call of the bed and lies down on it, becoming paralyzed. Fortunately he is able to quickly overcome the curse, and tries to pull Ashena from the bed, just as Ashena manages to free herself from the curse. They tumble off the bed and are relieved to learn that they are no longer magically drawn to it.

The party proceeds to the next door on the left, which Ashena assaults with a thrown dagger. When nothing happens, she suggests Akaru open the door. Unfortunately, Akaru's perceptiveness allows him to spot a series of magic runes on the door that read "I prepared explosive runes this morning" the resulting explosion hits the Oni-Spawn Stalker for 25 force damage.

The party decides to save the room with the exploding door for last and goes to the final room, the door itself does not detect as magical, so Ashena steps inside to take a look. Once inside, Ashena is ambushed by a Quickling that had been hiding in the room, but the quickling fumbles the ambush and fails to land a hit. Akaru immediately runs into the room and shuts the door to prevent any escape, leaving Skara out in the hallway.

Actual combat begins with the quickling taking a stab at Akaru, but failing to land a blow it opts to teleport away to create some distance. Bad move, as it gives Akaru enough room to charge in with a Disparity Blow. The attack crits and breaks through the Quickling's attempt at a counter, cleaving the fey creature in two. A second quickling appears in the room, shattering the glass window by Ashena and attempts to run past her. She strikes out at the quickling to try and trip it, but the Quickling manages to teleport out through the broken window with a successful Altered Penumbra, and immediately realizes its mistake when it plummets to the ground with a thud.

Ashena leaps out of the window and dives after the quickling, hitting the prone fey with Silver Knight's Blade and luckily healing off all the damage she took from the fall. Akaru scans the room and determines it's clear of any more surprises while Ashena climbs her way back up the wall. As she climbs, she can feel the movement of eight hairy legs going up her leg and onto her spine, and she notices the climb is much easier because of tiny hairs that are now growing out of her palms. She reaches the window and sees Skara and Akaru standing in the doorway. Panicking over her slow transformation into a spider, Ashena asks Skara to light her on fire. Skara is happy to oblige and hits her with a Solar Lance that bull rushes Ashena out of the tower once more.

This time, Ashena decides to just walk into the tower and take the stairs. Inside the main room of the tower, she spies a mechanical spider where the stove used to be. She shouts out a warning and charges the mechanical monstrosity, smashing it to bits. She runs up the stairs shouting a warning, and realizes as she runs that she now has an extra pair of arms and legs.

As soon as she spots Akaru, who came out to see what the fuss was about, she jumps him and tries to grapple him. This provokes Akaru to try and trip Ashena, which causes Ashena to try and trip Akaru, but all said and done, none of their combat maneuvers manage to land. Akaru pushes Ashena through the door to the final room (the one with explosive runes on the door) and inside is an altar and a giant tapestry depicting a golden half-drow half-spider (none of the party successfully identified it as a drider). Ashena tears down the tapestry, throws it out of the tower and lights it on fire with two or three well placed vials of alchemist's fire. The spidery feeling plaguing Ashena fades away, and after a short rest, the party finishes exploring the rest of the hex.

Day 47

This day was mostly spent traveling to Jaegergaard to hire hunters and other laborers to transport the goods from the fortress back to Teufelheim controlled lands. The party did load up some of the goods they'd acquired to take down to the Lizardfolk as their first tribute. Once there, the lizardfolk's chieftain invited them to stay the night and party. The draw of alcohol proved strong and every member of the trio managed to overindulge, spending the rest of the next day sickened.

Day 48

Definitely feeling the aftereffects of their hangover, but eager to return to exploring, the party heads to another unexplored hex, where they are ambushed by 5 giant spiders. After a brief break due to the GM's laughing fit (I rolled the encounter randomly, it was simply fortuitous). Ashena buffs the party and Akaru and Skara manage to take down all five spiders in a flurry of arrows and steel. The session ended with the party finishing their exploration of the hex.

Spoiler: DM's Notes

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It took me a while to get this written up, and I apologize for that. We're on a bit of a hiatus right now, so this is actually kind of old. Things will probably resume normally in May once I get some Real Life^TM issues sorted. Thanks for your patience.

[Coidzor]

The portrait of Dorian Drider, eh?

Hope real life clears up well.

[Anlashok]

Late to the party, but just read through the whole thing and I found it to be a great read. Now I want to run something similar and probably take some notes on your rules. They're a lot better than what's in Kingmaker, though probably switching chaos to +2 economy and law to +2 loyalty instead (free enterprise vs a more ordered society type thing).

Kudos on the cool campaign journal either way though.

[Elricaltovilla]

Late to the party, but just read through the whole thing and I found it to be a great read. Now I want to run something similar and probably take some notes on your rules. They're a lot better than what's in Kingmaker, though probably switching chaos to +2 economy and law to +2 loyalty instead (free enterprise vs a more ordered society type thing).

Kudos on the cool campaign journal either way though.

I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. Hopefully I can get it up and running again soon.

[Elricaltovilla]

Session 24
In which our party speaks dragon to a lizard, of romance to a dragon, of economics to a Warden and I spend a bunch of time talking to myself

Aaaaaaaand we're back. For now anyway. Life's still hectic but we managed to fit in a game last night, so I figure I ought to fill you all in on how it went.

Day 49

When last we left our party, they had spent the night in revelry with the lizardfolk cheftain, woken up completely hungover in the morning and then fought a bunch of spiders before deciding to call it a day.

Hex 1
During their next day of exploration, the party finds nothing significant of note in the first hex they explore. A welcome break from their unusually active lifestyle.

Hex 2
While exploring the southern forests further, the party enters an area filled with deadfalls, small caves and hovels created from the collapse of long dead trees. One of these caves is surprisingly well hidden and Akaru and Skara only barely notice it. As the party approaches to explore it more closely, they realize it's much larger than the other caves and that the entrance and the area further in is littered with bones and half eaten carcasses. A hissing roar erupts from within the cave and a pair of glowing red eyes reveal that the party is not alone.

The party faces a gigantic, spine covered lizard, a Hodag. The beast is ready to fight to the death, probably pegging the party for an easy meal. Akaru leaps into action and charges the beast, deftly dodging its snapping jaws before closing with a mighty Rising Zenith Strike. Ashena orders the beast to "Surrender in the name of Teufelheim!" in draconic. The beast doesn't seem to understand what Ashena is saying though, so she shouts a roar of encouragement and moves into a better position. Skara fires off three arrows, but only manages to land a single shot. The hodag for its part vents its fury on Akaru, landing two claw attacks despite his defensive precognition. Akaru finishes off the hodag with a powerful disparity blow, leaving the cave free for the party to explore.

Ashena is curious if the hodag is edible, and so cuts off a bit of its carcass to see what it tastes like. Apparently, hodag meat tastes like fried rotten egg though, so the carcass was left where it was. The party did make off fairly well though, finding three handaxes, a masterwork greataxe, some magic studded leather armor and a curious spear. The spear was clutched tightly in the hand of a skeleton that somehow still sported a beard, despite its bones being picked clean. When Ashena picks up the spear, the beard falls off of the skeleton and an equally bushy beard grows on her face. After spending an unusual amount of time determining how exactly the magical beard works (only on full bodies, only when wielded) the party recalls that dwarves often greatly value their beards and created a special enchantment to protect their beards in combat.

Spoiler: The Bearded Spear, and DM Yelling

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The original spear is a +1 Keen Spear, but since that's something my party is highly unlikely to use I decided to switch the enchantment to something more entertaining. The Bearded weapon special ability is located in the Steelforge Playtest. In case you want bearded weapons for yourself, here's the details:

Bearded (Weapon)
Price: +2
Aura: minor transmutation
Description: Bearded weapons were originally crafted by dwarves as a means to intimidate their foes and protect their faces. While wielding a bearded weapon, you sprout a thick metallic beard that protects you from harm. This beard provides a +1 shield bonus to AC, and the wearer can transfer the enhancement bonus of the weapon to the shield bonus provided by the beard. If the wielder is a dwarf, treat this weapon’s enhancement bonus as 2 higher.

Construction and Requirements: Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Ironbeard, creator must be a dwarf; Cost: +2 bonus.


Other than that, hodags apparently understand common. It's in their bestiary entry. Why? I'll never know, but I wish I didn't.

Having secured the hodag's den as their own, the party decides to camp there for the night. Ashena and Skara bury the bodies that they can identify while Akaru gets dinner ready. During their watch, Ashena has a fateful encounter. She spies a large serpent flying overhead on feathered wings. One of the feathers falls from the creature's wings and lands near her. Although it's difficult to make out in the moonlight, the feather seems to shift color and hue whenever it moves.

Day 50

Hex 1
Another hex is uneventfully explored as the party continues to map out the Greenbelt.

Hex 2
The second hex sees the party exploring a dense forest filled with new growth and underbrush. As the party explores the area, Akaru just barely manages to spot what appears to be a green dragon hidden among the underbrush. The dragon sees Akaru seeing it and immediately unleashes a smoky green orb that explodes on the party showering them in sickening and burning smoke that blinds them. Akaru and Ashena manage to dodge the worst of the explosion, but Skara takes the full brunt of the acidic cloud.

Spoiler: Condensed for space concerns

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Unable to find a direct route to the dragon through the growth, Akaru repositions himself and sets up a defensive position. Ashena, also certain that she wouldn't be able to charge into the fray, moves closer to the dragon and readies herself and the party with defending the pride and using her martial mastery to gain Military Training and Power Attack. She then entreats the dragon saying “Oh great dragon, there is no cause for us to fight. We can share great wealth among us if only you listen.” and... nat 1s the diplomacy roll.

Perhaps amused, perhaps hungry, the dragon does actually respond to Ashena. "Come closer little morsel… I mean friend, let’s talk.”

Skara lowers his bow and encourages Ashena to speak to the beast, though he readies an action to hit it with Blinding Ray Shot if it tries to attack her.

As soon as Ashena moves close enough to the dragon to speak to it, the beast lashes out with a bite. This of course triggers Skara's readied action and he blinds the dragon with a mighty ray of piercing light. "We’re all friends here, so we should try and avoid eating each other don’t you think?" he says.

Ashena attempts to sway the dragon again, though at this time the party realizes that the creature is not actually a true dragon but a Forest Drake. “I understand your desire to feed and gain treasure, but if you join us instead of fighting against us you can gain all that you could desire and more.”

The drake doesn't seem terribly happy at this point, shouting "Worms! Insects! Foul Roaches! How dare you steal my sight!”

"Does anyone else find it odd he called us worms?" Akaru mutters.

Ashena reaches out to the drake and uses her Lay on Hands ability to heal it, though she can't restore the drake's site. The drake shouts at her but doesn't bite this time.

A moment later the drake huffs “Fine. Speak your piece roaches before I tire of your presence.”

“Fortune smiles upon you and I, for we three are the rulers of the great and powerful Kingdom of Teufelheim.” Ashena says.

"Teufelheim! Ha! A piss pot kingdom in a backwater." The party glances around at the drake's own territory, also located in this very same "backwater" but holds their collective tongue.

"True we are a new kingdom, but we are growing and our strength comes from our allies. We would be greatly pleased to have you join our side." Ashena replies.

"I am a mighty forest drake, regal and of noble birth. I would not stoop to serve… wingless ones such as you."

"We would have you do only what you already do, rule over the forests but by our side instead of opposed."

The drake considers Ashena and the two other tieflings for a moment. "You have proved yourselves most convincing. I will let you leave with your lives intact."

Ashena makes one last play to try and convince the drake to join Teufelheim. "If we return in a month’s time with tribute, will you treat with us further?"

The drake shakes its head. "A month’s time will be the mating season of Drakes. I will not be here. There is a female drake who lives near my territory, Arbola. I would make her mine. If you can convince her to be my mate I will treat with you."

The forest drake gives his name as Verdarax and says that he will await the return of the party with Arbola.

Spoiler: DM's Notes

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So yet again I find myself ticked off by something silly in a monster entry. For starters, the encounter with the Forest Drake is listed as CR 5 in the AP, but Forest Drakes are a CR 4 encounter. No explanation is given for this. What's more, forest drakes, for no discernable reason posses a swim speed, as well as a +20 bonus to swim. There's no mention of them liking or living near water anywhere in their entry and indeed, can't breathe underwater at all, though they have a special ability that allows their breath weapon to work under water. They also don't get a stealth bonus while in their preferred terrain, something I found very odd, but not that unusual for monsters.

I will say though, that I like the breath weapon forest drakes have, and I'm also a fan of their ability to take an extra move action. Had it actually gotten into a fight, that would have been a great opportunity to use some interesting tactics.

The party decides to sail back to Wahrengaard, the capital of Teufelheim in order to do some research on forest drakes in order to convince Arbola to mate with Verdarax. After a day's sailing they return to Wahrengaard to find Ilisse waiting for them at the gates.

"We have a problem." She says. "Kesten Garess is at it again. His mismanagement of the Wardens has the populace up in arms. I got him to agree to come to the capital for an investigation and a trial, but we need to do something to resolve this."

In private chambers, the Triumvirate convenes to discuss how to deal with Kesten. According to the information gathered by Ilisse and by Akaru's spy network, Kesten has implemented most of the changes previously ordered by the triumvirate, but did so without removing the problem elements of the Wardens. There are still a number of excessively cruel and overly zealous members, and a lot of them are extremely loyal to Kesten, who possesses a natural charm. The discussion continues for a while, until Ashena suggests putting his natural charm to good use as an ambassador to the Kobolds that work the mines and supply gold for the kingdom. Skara suggests building a counting house/mint near the mines that can be used to contain Kesten and his more vocal problem Wardens. The Triumvirate agrees to go with this moving forward, and they split up to tackle the various tasks associated with setting things up.

Ashena contacts Senera, the devil-spawn arcanist from cheliax for help researching forest drakes. They meet in a romantic restaurant to discuss the research and talk about boys. Ashena spends a significant amount of time shamelessly hitting on Senera before finally getting around to the important subject. What she learns though is that forest drakes prefer gems, being complimented and the flesh of elves or fey creatures. She also learns that what happened with Verdarax was essentially a giant fluke. Forest drakes almost never waste their time conversing with "meals" so ensuring that Arbola even bothers to talk to the party is going to be the biggest issue. The other bit of advice that Senera gives is that the party should absolutely not invite the drakes into any major city, as doing so will probably overwhelm the drakes' instincts and lead to a slaughter of the civilians.

Akaru visits Oleg who has been doing a great job both running Olegolambgaard and serving as the kingdom treasurer. Akaru meets with Oleg for dinner. Over a meal of roast venison, sweet potatoes and Oleg's own homebrewed beer, they discuss the problem that Kesten presents. Like most other people, Oleg is fond of Kesten: he's a good guy, just not cut out for managing an entire kingdom's law enforcement. They discuss how to sell Kesten on the idea and the importance of the task and how to ensure that he has the proper oversight without making it look like a demotion. Oleg suggests creating a separate branch of the wardens that work for the kingdom's Treasury, dedicated to ensuring the value and quality of the kingdom's coins. After dinner, Oleg shows off his homebewing equipment and beers to Akaru, including a new favorite: Devil's Stout, a chocolate stout with a cinnamon infusion. Akaru sends a message to Skara before he meets with Kesten to explain Oleg's suggestions.

Skara meets with Kesten in his room at the Horned Keep. Kesten already knows that he's screwed up and is prepared to accept the worst. Skara explains the proposed mint, Knoxgaard, and the kind of duties that it would entail. Skara is very up front with Kesten, part of the reason they're doing this is to get him out of the limelight and let things blow over in order to keep the populace from revolting. Kesten agrees to invite many of his higher level wardens (those that cause problems) to work with him in Knoxgaard.

The party has one final meeting the next day, with Oleg, Ilisse, Kesten and the Triumvirate to settle the details of the creation of the new Mint. The location is selected and Kesten brings up the list of names that have agreed to join him in founding the new guards of coin (official name TBD). The guards of coin will be responsible for managing the transport and processing of ore into coin, ensuring the standardization of the coin of the realm, securing the transport of the coin to and from Knoxgaard and investigating counterfeiting and other coin related crimes. Kesten and his men will be responsible primarily for guarding Knoxgaard and in the meantime, overseeing its construction.

The session ends with this new project in place.

Spoiler: DM's Notes: Talking to myself

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So, I'm both DMing the game and playing the PC of Skara Windbane. As a result, I spent a lot of this session basically talking to myself. It was an interesting experience. I couldn't really keep notes during that section because I was busy acting out the conversations between the two characters for my players. I can only assume that it was an amusing sight.

[Elricaltovilla]

Session 25
In which the party plays matchmaker for a geek and a valley girl, dances with vampire fey and invests in drake egg futures

Day 51

In the capital city of Wahrengaard, the party discusses just how exactly they'll manage to get the attention of Arbola and convince her to mate with Verdarax. Ashena is extremely eager to do something involving the elven citizens of Teufelheim, ostensibly only involving blood donations, but given her track record...

Akaru points out that the party has several fey contacts in the forests nearby, and Skara agrees that those fey will most likely have other fey enemies. So the party goes off to find some of their faerie friends and do some mercenary work. The party travels to Perlivash's (the faerie dragon) nest to see if he has any knowledge of evil fey in the region. Perlivash is pleased to see the group again, and mentions that there are in fact a trio of "dancers" that have been ruining his parties of late. He directs the party to the southern end of the forest in order to locate them.

The party heads south to the area that Perlivash directed them towards: A clearing at the southern edge of the forest, rife with low hills and waist high grass. Before leaving on their trip the party collected 5 BP worth of gold, jewels and other finery to add to their... bribe (let's be honest) for Arbola.

As the party explores the area, they hear music in the distance. In a low valley between three hills, the party spots a trio of scantily clad women dancing. Suspecting these women to be the "dancers" in question, the party agrees to capture them alive if possible. Akaru breaks into a charge and uses the flat of his blade to hit one of the dancers with rising zenith strike and activating murderous insight. Skara fires off a trio of arrows and manages to score a critical hit with his first attack, putting one of the dancers unconscious and hitting a second one for 23 damage.

Ashena buffs the party with Encouraging Roar and readies herself for battle by activating her martial mastery and a casting of bless on the party. One of the two remaining conscious dancers fires off an entangle spell that manages to catch Ashena, but fails to hit Akaru or Skara. The second remaining dancer grapples Akaru.

Unable to use his falchion, Akaru falls back on his bite attack and scores a nonlethal hit with disparity blow that trips the grappling dancer. Ashena tries and fails to break free of the entangle spell, and then gets hit with a suggestion spell for her trouble. As a result, Ashena drops her weapon.

The dancer grappling Akaru fails to establish a pin and is subsequently knocked unconscious as a result. The sole remaining dancer begins to dance again, forcing the party to make saving throws, which both Akaru and Skara fail. With her two companions left completely dazed by the enchanting swaying of the dancer, only Ashena remains to bring down this final opponent. What follows is a string of horribly missed attacks, neither one is able to successfully attack the other, and in short order the dancer realizes she is completely outmatched. She attempts to flee, but running off into the distance frees both Akaru and Skara from her spell. Akaru and Ashena give chase while Skara ties up, gags and blindfolds the two unconscious dancers. The final remaining dancer is unable to escape her pursuers and is brought down by a blow from Akaru.

Their offerings gathered, the party leaves to seek out Arbola in order to convince her to mate with Verdarax.

Hex 2

The party explores the dense forest nearby, calling for Arbola by name as they comb the forest drake's territory. Ashena remembers being told by Senera that in order to attract the attention of a Forest Drake, she would need to strip naked and find a clearing in the drake's territory and do the chicken dance. Ashena proceeds to strip completely naked and starts dancing. She fails to spot the shadow of a dragon flying overhead though and is bombarded by a stinking cloud of acid before the drake lands at the edge of the clearing.

Ashena calls out to Arbola by name "Mighty Arbola, we have come on behalf of the great Verdarax and the kingdom of Teufelheim to woo you."

Arbola fires off another orb of acid. "Ugh, Verdarax? That geek? You've got to be, like, kidding me."

"Verdarax has allied himself with the mighty kingdom of Teufelheim..."

"S****y kingdom." Arbola corrects Ashena.

Undaunted, Ashena proceeds "With the mighty kingdom of Teufelheim and has accepted our gracious alliance in the interest of expanding both his and our territory to mutual benefit."

"Of course he would. He's always like, been a runt. He probably got himself caught or something and just like told you that so you wouldn't kill him or something." Sarcasm drips from Arbola's words like acid from her fangs.

"We have brought you three delectable fey women as tribute for your time, great Arbola." Ashena gestures to the bound and gagged dancers.

"You brought me Baobhan Sith, are you like, trying to make me fat or something?" Arbola snorts in disgust, but she clearly seems interested in the fey. "Anyway, so like, what do you want? Or whatever."

"We have been sent on behalf of Verdarax to encourage you to mate with him so that the two of you and your brood will join with our mighty kingdom..."


"S****y kingdom."

"...and we can grow in power and expand our influence throughout the Greenbelt."

"So you like, want me to mate with Verdarax? Ew.... He's totally gross."

Ashena produces a treasure chest filled with gems and gold coins.

"Well maybe." Ashena produces a second chest filled with more of the same.

"10,000 gold each." Arbola says.

"I'm sorry?"

"I'll sell you my and Verdarax's eggs for 10,000 gold a piece. It's not like they'll amount to anything with him as the father anyway. And next time you want my eggs, find me a real green dragon or something." Arbola takes the treasures and flies off. The party leaves to tell Verdarax the good news and the session ends with the party having earned enough experience to level up to level 8.

[Timble]

This is an entertaining thread, but the players boiled a kobold alive which is very disturbing.

[Elricaltovilla]

This is an entertaining thread, but the players boiled a kobold alive which is very disturbing.

I think that still ranks as the worst thing they've done so far, but I could be wrong. In their defense, that particular Kobold was a pretty bad dude and also

Spoiler

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a GNOME. gasp...

[Theobod]

That spoiler couldn't be funnier if it tried xD
Loving this and looking forward to more.

[upho]

This is just getting better and better. Now this oddly charming trio of fiendish murderhobos can add "drake pimps" to their already impressive list of titles, which includes several similarly highly coveted rarities such as "werewolf-horse breeder", "kobold boiler" and "lizardfolk snuggler", just to name a few off the top of my head. In this list, I think "founder and ruler of kingdom" stands out only by feeling like the far most dull and ordinary, which says quite a lot (although I guess for example "boggard-basher", "slurk-slayer", "aboleth abolisher" and "troll trouncer" would also not shine nearly as bright without the cheap alliteration bling)...

[Elricaltovilla]

Session 26
In which our intrepid "heroes" finish exploring the Southern Greenbelt and face their most dangerous foes yet

A short preface: this session was entirely occupied by a delicious chicken alfredo dinner prepared by C's wife and one singular encounter. We ended up starting a bit late because of the food, though I certainly won't be complaining if it happens again . Anyway, those of you looking for the party's characteristic roleplay might be disappointed, there really wasn't a whole lot to be had. Those of you interested in seeing how a knock down, drag out fight between two parties of full initiators actually plays out, as well as some of my thoughts, tips and tricks for using initiators as enemies will probably enjoy this post more.

---

The party returns to the final unexplored hex in their kingdom, where the abandoned ferry station and the Shrike and Little Sellen Rivers merge. Previously, the party had been unable to fully explore this hex because the only way across the rivers, the ferry station, was in such an extreme state of disrepair that the party couldn't cross it to explore the hex fully at that time. Now returned and with a folding boat of their own, the party is able to take stock of the area in full.

They approach from the west, on the side of the Shrike River where the ferry's boat house is located. As the party nears the boat house, Skara notices that the party is being watched. He demands that whoever is hiding in the boat house reveal themselves. Out of the boat house step three dangerous looking aasimar warriors. One of which Akaru is able to identify as the wanted former Warden, Seefas.

Flourishing his rapier, Seefas levels an ultimatum at the party. "Your evil has persisted for too long. I have walked among your people, I have infiltrated your lands and I have seen the evil you have wrought. Now you will face your death.”

Spoiler: Combat Play by Play

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The enemy party consists of a Medic, an Edge Lord Harbinger and a Mystic (Seefas). Since the other two never got to be introduced by name (my bad) I am going to be referring to those two by their class for the duration of this play by play.

The Medic is the first to act, she moves up to point, taking position between the party and the other two Aasimar as if daring the party to take her on. Skara decides not to take her up on the bait and launches an Iron Wind at Seefas, hitting for 20 damage and staggering him for 5 rounds. Akaru activates murderious insight and charges the Medic to use Disparity Blow, but his attack misses. This means that the party has unfortunately fallen for the aasimar's trap, as the Edge Lord takes the opportunity to teleport up to Akaru with One Step Closer and initiates Warp Worm, tearing through the party and dealing 34 damage to each of them, ending his movement at the far end of the map near Skara. The Edge Lord finishes his turn by claiming Skara and Ashena. Ashena spends her move action to activate Martial Master, gaining the feats Military Training and Martial Charge. Ashena then channels energy to heal the party 15 damage and uses her swift action to initiate Defending The Pride. Last to act, Seefas draws his rapier and launches an Iron Wave at Akaru but misses.

The Medic acts again, rushing to aid Seefas with her Triage ability, healing him, removing his staggered condition and using Aid Another to boost his next attack roll. Skara fires a Blinding Ray at the Edge Lord which blinds his target for 1 round. Skara tells the rest of the party that he'll keep the Edge Lord occupied while they take down Seefas. Akaru charges the Medic again, hitting her with a combined Noble Blade boost and Rising Zenith Strike. Blinded, the Edge Lord doesn't act for his turn. Ashena charges the Medic and hits her with Golden Lion Swipe, pushing the Medic 10 ft. but Akaru fails to land his Attack of Opportunity. Seefas uses his animus to augment his Silver Knight's Blade, hitting Ashena and healing the Medic a bit to keep her on her feet.

The Medic hits Ashena with Sting of the Viper, dealing maximum Charisma damage to poor Ashena, who failed her save. Skara unloads a Searing Break boosted full attack against the Edge Lord, but only manages two hits. Akaru hits the Medic with Bilious Strike, against which the Medic fails her Fortitude save, leaving her nauseated for 5 rounds and effectively neutered. The Aasimar are all visibly disgusted by Akaru's use of profane energy and redouble their efforts to put down the vile Tiefling party. The Edge Lord hits Skara with Essence Shattering Strike, which thankfully doesn't crit, but Skara still fails his save and is dazed for 2 rounds. Ashena heals herself and Akaru with Channel Energy and Lay on Hands, and uses her Martial Master ability to switch her feats to Military Training and Dodge. Seefas attempts to attack Ashena with a Eldritch Fang Flurry boosted attack, but misses.

The Medic is nauseated and doesn't act. Skara is dazed and also unable to act. Akaru attempts Strike of Defeat on the Medic but misses his attack. The Edge Lord attempts to hit Skara with Silver Wave but misses his attack as well. Ashena takes another 2 charisma damage from Sting of the Viper and heals herself wit another Lay on Hands before moving into position to flank the Medic and hitting her with Silver Knight's Blade, again Ashena heals herself. Seefas 5 foot steps to attack Akaru with Rapid Current but misses both attacks.

The Medic is nauseated and doesn't act. Skara is dazed and also unable to act. Akaru, out of strikes, full attacks the Medic and scores a critical hit, bisecting her and recovering his maneuvers with Victorious Recovery. He makes his second attack against Seefas, and manages to hit through Seefas's counter. Again, the Edge Lord attempts to attack the dazed Skara, but misses, so he teleports away and behind a tree to prevent himself from being double teamed. Ashena uses Defending the Pride to boost her and Akaru's AC and charges Seefas, smashing him with her earthbreaker.

Skara launches a Battering Gale at the Edge Lord, hitting him and pushing him out into the open. This creates the perfect opportunity for Akaru, who charges in with Bilious Strike and Murderous Insight to put down another Aasimar for good. Ashena boosts up with Encouraging Roar and hits Seefas with Golden Lion Swipe, pushing him towards Akaru. "I'd send you to Hell, but Akaru's right there!" she shouts. Seefas hits Akaru with an Eldritch Fang Flurry boosted Rapid Current, burning most of his animus to do so, but he still only hits once.

Skara unloads a full attack of... misses. Akaru uses Rising Zenith Strike, hitting through Seefas's feeble counter. Ashena is ultimately the one to slay the villainous Aasimar, charging in and shattering his skull with her Earthbreaker.

The party is victorious, having gone through some of the most intense fighting they've ever endured, and all are bruised, battered and exhausted. The night ends with this victory. The future of Teufelheim is yet to come, however.

---

For those of you interested in some discussion on using PoW enemies in your games, I have some notes and thoughts spoilered below.

Spoiler: Using PoW NPCs as a GM

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To start with, I'll repost the three character sheets I used for this boss fight

Edge Lord Harbinger
Medic
Mystic

All three were built using the following rules:

• Max HP per level
• 11th level
• NPC Elite Array (Per CRB)
• Approximately NPC Wealth By Level

Given the size of the party and the APL, 3 11th level NPCs would be a CR11-12 encounter, appropriate for a boss fight for an APL 8 party. Everything in my game uses max HP per HD, PCs and enemies included. Where I think most people trip up though is that they try and build their NPC villains as PCs. Any time you do that though, you end up increasing the difficulty of the encounter. Using a 25 Pt buy, especially a min-maxed one like players use, will result in enemies that are probably +1 CR higher than they would be as Elite Array. Using PC wealth by level instead of NPC wealth by level has the same effect, as explicitly stated in the rules for encounter design.

So a lot of the criticisms I've seen of PoW enemies has been from people who build them like PCs and then sic them on a party, and then wonder why they end up one shotting players. If you build an 11 HD initiator with 25 pt buy and PC wealth, that's a CR 13 encounter, minimum. So my first bit of advice is this:

When building enemy initiators use the Elite Array and NPC wealth or your numbers will be off.

Another problem that seems to come up is that some maneuvers are too damaging or too debilitating to use against PCs. Well, don't use them. Just like you (probably) wouldn't use glitterdust on a party, you shouldn't use Primal Fury against the wizard. As a GM you have to exercise judicious readings of maneuvers in order to provide a challenging, but not overly lethal, encounter for your party.

If a maneuver seems "too strong" to use against PCs. Don't use it!


Maneuver selection has other parts to it as well. As an NPC, the goal probably shouldn't be to wipe the party. That means you need to provide incentive in other ways. Warp Worm was supposed to be a big part of this encounter. It has decent, but not overwhelming damage, and hits multiple targets. By putting it on a harbinger, it can be repeatedly used to provide an interesting mechanic. Sting of the Viper was used because it could be crippling without being lethal. I loaded up on non-damaging counters to direct the flow of battle without putting excess pressure on the party.

Use maneuvers that do interesting things. Don't focus on the dice being dropped.

Each of the three initiators I pitted the party against had specific roles to fulfill. In addition to serving as a sort of anti-party, they had specific tactics that could be used, and more importantly beaten. The Warp Worm tactic of the Edge Lord was negated by having the party split up or spread out, which they did. The Medic and her triage could have been shut down with the right choice of status effects, such as nauseating her with Bilious Strike. The mystic had DPR issues because of his reliance on elemental effects. If your players are using maneuvers, incentivize them to use the ones with status effect riders by making those choices relevant to the current battle. If the enemy can't be beaten by a boost + full attack, then it becomes a worthwhile tactic to hit them with a debuff so that the PCs can wail on them with reduced risk.

Don't make your NPC Iniators unkillable monsters. The job of an enemy is to do cool stuff, then die. Make them hard to kill, but not killing machines themselves.

That's really about it: Don't fool yourself into thinking that PCs and NPCs are playing by the same rules, build your NPCs to be interesting tactically, and don't forget that the PCs are the heroes. They're supposed to win. And if something seems too strong or unfair to use against your PCs, DON'T USE IT!

[upho]

I just have to chime in with especially your last two points of DM advice:

Use maneuvers that do interesting things. Don't focus on the dice being dropped.

So much this. As is largely the case with PCs, it can be difficult to find a functional and tactically sound combat focus other than dealing single-target damage for NPC opponents of Paizo martial classes. But when it comes to NPCs of initiator classes, they thankfully have a lot more options which allow them to have such a focus. And most importantly, by choosing options for debuffing, control and defense rather than damage, a DM can improve many aspects of the challenge the NPCs poses:

1. Less risk of fluke PC deaths and greater chance the PC's will have an opportunity to assess the situation and flee if things starts going south for them.
2. Allows for increasing the difficulty of the challenge with less relative increase in single-round lethality. For example, adding three levels to a BFC focused 8th level warder NPC will certainly make the warder a more challenging opponent, but it will typically have a relatively minor impact on the warder's damage output capacity.
3. Allows for much greater variation and more interesting tactical challenges, including the NPCs having strengths and weaknesses different from traditional martial classes.
4. May give NPCs really cool signature moves, enhancing their "combat personality" and making them more impressive.

These advantages has made me give also monsters a few initiator class levels whenever possible and suitable, rather than choosing a more powerful creature. I also often combine maneuvers with suitable combat maneuver feats to further enhance control and debuff capacity, allowing for even greater mechanical variation and difficulty without necessarily increasing the risks of unintentional PC deaths or a TPK.

The downside is of course that initiator classes require more DM work and a bit more system knowledge, both to put together the builds and to play them. Though in many cases I think at least ease of play can be much improved by simply reducing readied maneuvers, especially strikes, prioritizing those most flavorful and of greatest importance for their combat role. And of course, even NPCs with more complex combos and tactics can become a lot more easy to run if properly summarized in an easy-to-follow and well organized way, minimizing the need of on-the-fly calculations and looking up of rules details. Which is why I typically never use pre-made PC character sheets for NPCs, as they often tend to include way too much information and put less relevant info first, while also having little space for detailed step-by-step descriptions of combat combos.

@Elric: I noticed you used PC character sheets to present the NPCs. Did you use those when DMing the game as well? And if so, do you find that preferable to condensed custom "sheets" more similar to monster stat blocks?

Don't make your NPC Iniators unkillable monsters. The job of an enemy is to do cool stuff, then die. Make them hard to kill, but not killing machines themselves.

I agree, though I think the TPK risk levels the "perfect opponents" should present depends very much on play style and preferences, of course. For example, my players like to have their PCs pushed to their very limits during several rounds in harder combats, and they want most combats to feel really scary, the risk of a PC death very real and even likely unless they make good tactical decisions. Their "perfect encounter" ends with them being victorious, but with almost all their limited resources spent and all except one of them lying dying, the last one at 1 hp and feeding their last healing potions to the others. They're nuts, but at least it also forces me to really learn the mechanical strengths and weaknesses of both the PCs and the enemies I build, and to be very creative when putting those enemies together, which makes for more interesting encounters.

Though this doesn't make high DPR enemies any more preferable, rather the opposite, since the very high relative CR my players prefer typically means high DPR opponents equals early round fluke one-shots, which doesn't exactly allow the killed PC to be pushed to his/her limit during several rounds. And glass cannons are of course even worse, being both too rocket-taggy and too fragile to survive long enough to keep up the pressure on the PCs. So if there's one thing I'll probably never use, it's crit fishing or high crit type of opponents, since this promotes boring fluke kills like nothing else. If a premade monster/NPC has feats like Improved Critical, keen weapons, or similar crit enhancing options, I always exchange those options, even if I leave everything else as written.

Again, I think initiator NPCs can be great, since they may have excellent staying power through active defenses (such as counters and superior mobility), and don't need much raw killing power in order to be both challenging and at least giving the impression of being scarily effective in combat. That said, I think one should be very careful with stuff which greatly enhances such combat styles and which may be difficult for the party to defend against, like giving a great melee reach to a control focused tripping warder, or further boosting a debuffing harbinger's already high maneuver DCs. Doing so may make these kinds opponents a lot more hard to escape from once engaged, and thus also a lot more deadly if the PCs make a tactical mistake or have a string of unlucky rolls, even if these opponents' damage output capacity remain low.

As an example of an initiator monster which was a bit too much of a killing machine, I had a faceless stalker with stalker levels (of course) as a recurring villain in my current (heavily modified) RotRL campaign. Perhaps not surprisingly, this Primal Fury, Thrashing Dragon and Veiled Moon trained TWF assassin had a very high initiative bonus and an average full attack deadly for at least the party's two more fragile PCs, and eventually caused the only PC death in the campaign so far. When the party's relatively flimsy ranged cleric for some reason positioned himself next to the invisible party striker/scout bloodrager, right in front of the door leading to a room where the PCs suspected this highly lethal foe was hiding, the "stalker-stalker" of course had little reason to attack anyone else than the poor cleric, who unfortunately got splattered all over the walls and remaining party members as Raging Hunter Pounce mincemeat a second after he had opened the door.

Though one might say the PCs had been given fair warning and had only themselves to blame, having meet this foe in combat before and having realized enough to be afraid of the high initiative and "Raging Hunter Pounce mincemeat" threat, I also think I shouldn't have pushed the stalker-stalker's damage potential quite as far. In hindsight, the assassin would've been able to fulfill his intended role just as well if I for example had given him a few nasty poisons instead, which at least could've given the party a chance to reduce the very high cost of their mistake and probably made the encounter more interesting.

[Elricaltovilla]

I can only ever give general advice. The game is too complicated for anything more detailed than general suggestions. But I do know that at least on a basic level, if you don't follow the suggested rules for encounter building, your estimates will be thrown off. A lot of people fool themselves into thinking that PCs and Monsters are built using the same rules, and that just isn't true. Looking at literally any bestiary entry is going to tell you that, so if you do build your monsters like your players build PCs, you're going to have a hard time.

I used the sheets I posted in the game. Writing up "condensed" monster sheets would have just taken up more time, and wouldn't have saved me any space anywhere anyway.

[upho]

I can only ever give general advice. The game is too complicated for anything more detailed than general suggestions. But I do know that at least on a basic level, if you don't follow the suggested rules for encounter building, your estimates will be thrown off.

For sure. As someone who never bothers with calculating encounter CR or to calibrate creature statistics according to monster creation rules, I know you can quickly ruin the game if you're not careful and know what you're doing. (As a side note, I do always compare my opponents' values and combos to those of the PCs to make certain I minimize the risks of any serious unintentional effects.)

Spoiler: But CR also sucks!

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Unfortunately, I also think a lot of DMs rely way too much on especially on the CR rating of specific opponents, not looking closely enough at the creature's capabilities while ignoring the system's inherent flaws and their potentially serious effects on the game. As a very basic example, let's say the BBEG of a story arc is a dangerous dragon the party is expected to face when relatively newly rested at 10th level. According to the guidelines, a suitable dragon for this epic encounter would be a CR 13 Mature Adult Green Dragon.

Unfortunately, this dragon has a full attack which deals an average of 127 damage when using its Power Attack, ie more than twice the max 60 damage a "high damage" melee monster of CR 13 should deal according to the monster creation rules. In addition, this high damage isn't compensated by a lower attack bonus, as it's three more dangerous primary attacks have a bonus of +24 and it's three secondary attacks a bonus of +22 (+19/+17 with Power Attack), while the monster creation rules suggests a bonus of +22. So this dragon can easily reduce even a typical 10th level barbarian to less than 0 hp with one full attack, even without having to cast one of its buffing spells (like haste) first. On top of this, the dragon has more hp and a higher AC than the recommended/average.

And considering the dragon is to be faced while alone, it of course has a huge action economy disadvantage in comparison to the four PCs. Which means if the they beat the dragon's poor initiative and are able to attack it, they can instead likely easily kill the dragon before it even gets to act.

So, even when just considering the dragon's melee capabilities, hp, AC and initiative, there's a considerable risk this dragon kills one or more PCs, and/or is itself killed, in the first or second round of combat. In other words, a fight which is exactly the opposite of what an epic story arc end battle should be IMO.

A lot of people fool themselves into thinking that PCs and Monsters are built using the same rules, and that just isn't true. Looking at literally any bestiary entry is going to tell you that, so if you do build your monsters like your players build PCs, you're going to have a hard time.

Whoa, I hope those people aren't too common, 'cause that's a pretty serious misconception. It's two very different things. Even when it comes to NPC opponents, even though the actual rules are the same in many respects. Of course you can "steal" a few specific tricks from PC builds you've seen or made, or even build your more important villains completely according to PC rules - race, traits, favored class, wealth and all - and up the CR accordingly, just like Paizo does sometimes. But you have to keep in mind the overall objectives for an opponent's mechanics are very different from those of a PC build.

I used the sheets I posted in the game. Writing up "condensed" monster sheets would have just taken up more time, and wouldn't have saved me any space anywhere anyway.

I guess when you're used to those sheets and know the relevant rules details it works fine. And of course, using PC sheets with calculation scripts does spare you some prep work.

Personally, I would miss lists of combo actions with the related highly probable pre-calculated values, like this:

Spoiler: Excerpt from summary of "Grasuul" (giant scrag troll bloodrager 6)

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OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., swim 70 ft.
Melee 2-3 claws +18/+18/+18 (haste) (1d8+14 plus grab), bite +20 (2d6+14 plus grab)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 20 ft., 35 ft. with claws
Special Attacks grab +32, rend (2 claws, 1d8+18)

Round-by-Round
1 Hides in pool, Stealth +30 (+20 skill +10 water), rage surprise after buffs unless discovered, reach 7 squares:

• Claw: +28 vs. CMD, Savage Dirty Trick, 12 dmg, sickened (-2 on d20) 2 rounds, Fort DC 25 or nauseated (only move) 2 rounds, Grasuul gains 12 THP; grapple +32, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 to avoid being dragged down into the pool next to Grasuul. Grapple CMD 41.

2 If no foe grappled: full attack, reach 7/4 squares:

• 1st Claw: +28 vs. CMD, Savage Dirty Trick, 12 dmg, sickened (-2 on d20) 2 rounds, Fort DC 25 or nauseated (only move) 2 rounds, Grasuul gains 12 THP; grapple +32, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 or moved to adjacent in pool. Grapple CMD 41.
• 2nd Claw: +18 (+16 if grappled), 1d8+14, plus grapple +26 unless two foes already grappled, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 (33 if another foe grappled) or moved to adjacent in the pool.
• 3rd Claw: as above
• Bite: +20 (+18 if grappled), 2d6+14, plus grapple +26 unless two foes already grappled, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 (33 if another foe grappled) or dragged into the pool.

3 If two foes already grappled (escape/break grapple CMD 37):

• Move: maintain move CMB +29, 1d8+14, plus dragged below surface.
• Standard: as Move above, -OR- release grapple and Bite +20 (2d6+14), grapple +26

Grappled: cannot move, –4 Dex, –2 attack other, CMB to grapple or escape grapple.

Aberrant Bloodline and Rage Powers Abnormal Reach, Internal Fortitude, Savage Dirty Trick
Wrathblood Evolutions (6 ep) Improved Natural Armor x3, Monstrous Limbs (arms), Skilled x2 (Perception, Stealth)

But each to his own, I guess.

[Florian]

Hah! Something like "Grasuul" would be devastating against the group I´m playing Kingmaker with. My co-players are all new to RPGs and while they managed to come up with decent builds (with a little help), they managed to prepare for this AP too well by also focusing on handling the kingdom roles mechanically right from the start (Meaning that feats like Noble Scion, Center of Power and Inspirational Commander are around, as well story feats like Dynasty Founder and Prophet). I´m playing the party wizard and I´m having a hard time not to overshadow them during combats.

@Elric:

It´s eery how similar your kingdoms development is compared to what happens with us right now. So Stag Lord´s Fort > Temple of the Elk > Sootscale Mine > Olegs. We´re, right now, still undecided on what to engage next, Candlemere Keep or the Abandoned Keep. FWIW we´re using the Legendary Games supplements (Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle and so on) and that works quite well.

[Elricaltovilla]

For sure. As someone who never bothers with calculating encounter CR or to calibrate creature statistics according to monster creation rules, I know you can quickly ruin the game if you're not careful and know what you're doing. (As a side note, I do always compare my opponents' values and combos to those of the PCs to make certain I minimize the risks of any serious unintentional effects.)

This is really the best way to do things, but it takes a lot of work. I opt for the much lazier "make the PCs strong enough that I don't really have to think hard about what to throw at them, they'll probably survive."

I do keep my PCs' abilities to mind when building custom enemies like this, these guys were a pretty good "anti-party" I think, if they'd been built to the same specs, the NPCs very likely would have slaughtered the PCs. Although given my dice rolling ability, that's not guaranteed.

Spoiler: But CR also sucks!

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Unfortunately, I also think a lot of DMs rely way too much on especially on the CR rating of specific opponents, not looking closely enough at the creature's capabilities while ignoring the system's inherent flaws and their potentially serious effects on the game. As a very basic example, let's say the BBEG of a story arc is a dangerous dragon the party is expected to face when relatively newly rested at 10th level. According to the guidelines, a suitable dragon for this epic encounter would be a CR 13 Mature Adult Green Dragon.

Unfortunately, this dragon has a full attack which deals an average of 127 damage when using its Power Attack, ie more than twice the max 60 damage a "high damage" melee monster of CR 13 should deal according to the monster creation rules. In addition, this high damage isn't compensated by a lower attack bonus, as it's three more dangerous primary attacks have a bonus of +24 and it's three secondary attacks a bonus of +22 (+19/+17 with Power Attack), while the monster creation rules suggests a bonus of +22. So this dragon can easily reduce even a typical 10th level barbarian to less than 0 hp with one full attack, even without having to cast one of its buffing spells (like haste) first. On top of this, the dragon has more hp and a higher AC than the recommended/average.

And considering the dragon is to be faced while alone, it of course has a huge action economy disadvantage in comparison to the four PCs. Which means if the they beat the dragon's poor initiative and are able to attack it, they can instead likely easily kill the dragon before it even gets to act.

So, even when just considering the dragon's melee capabilities, hp, AC and initiative, there's a considerable risk this dragon kills one or more PCs, and/or is itself killed, in the first or second round of combat. In other words, a fight which is exactly the opposite of what an epic story arc end battle should be IMO.

I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I said as the idea that CR is balanced or accurate in general. It works much better when building things from scratch though, because you have a reasonable means of comparison in the monster design tables. Still, as with everything in PF, you need to exercise caution and play to your party's abilities.

Whoa, I hope those people aren't too common, 'cause that's a pretty serious misconception. It's two very different things. Even when it comes to NPC opponents, even though the actual rules are the same in many respects. Of course you can "steal" a few specific tricks from PC builds you've seen or made, or even build your more important villains completely according to PC rules - race, traits, favored class, wealth and all - and up the CR accordingly, just like Paizo does sometimes. But you have to keep in mind the overall objectives for an opponent's mechanics are very different from those of a PC build.

They definitely exist. Most don't come directly out and say it, but it becomes apparent in the conversations I've had with them about encounter design. I remain steadfast in my position that a monster's job is to do something cool or interesting, then die.

I guess when you're used to those sheets and know the relevant rules details it works fine. And of course, using PC sheets with calculation scripts does spare you some prep work.

Personally, I would miss lists of combo actions with the related highly probable pre-calculated values, like this:

Spoiler: Excerpt from summary of "Grasuul" (giant scrag troll bloodrager 6)

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OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., swim 70 ft.
Melee 2-3 claws +18/+18/+18 (haste) (1d8+14 plus grab), bite +20 (2d6+14 plus grab)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 20 ft., 35 ft. with claws
Special Attacks grab +32, rend (2 claws, 1d8+18)

Round-by-Round
1 Hides in pool, Stealth +30 (+20 skill +10 water), rage surprise after buffs unless discovered, reach 7 squares:

• Claw: +28 vs. CMD, Savage Dirty Trick, 12 dmg, sickened (-2 on d20) 2 rounds, Fort DC 25 or nauseated (only move) 2 rounds, Grasuul gains 12 THP; grapple +32, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 to avoid being dragged down into the pool next to Grasuul. Grapple CMD 41.

2 If no foe grappled: full attack, reach 7/4 squares:

• 1st Claw: +28 vs. CMD, Savage Dirty Trick, 12 dmg, sickened (-2 on d20) 2 rounds, Fort DC 25 or nauseated (only move) 2 rounds, Grasuul gains 12 THP; grapple +32, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 or moved to adjacent in pool. Grapple CMD 41.
• 2nd Claw: +18 (+16 if grappled), 1d8+14, plus grapple +26 unless two foes already grappled, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 (33 if another foe grappled) or moved to adjacent in the pool.
• 3rd Claw: as above
• Bite: +20 (+18 if grappled), 2d6+14, plus grapple +26 unless two foes already grappled, foe makes free CMB vs. 37 (33 if another foe grappled) or dragged into the pool.

3 If two foes already grappled (escape/break grapple CMD 37):

• Move: maintain move CMB +29, 1d8+14, plus dragged below surface.
• Standard: as Move above, -OR- release grapple and Bite +20 (2d6+14), grapple +26

Grappled: cannot move, –4 Dex, –2 attack other, CMB to grapple or escape grapple.

Aberrant Bloodline and Rage Powers Abnormal Reach, Internal Fortitude, Savage Dirty Trick
Wrathblood Evolutions (6 ep) Improved Natural Armor x3, Monstrous Limbs (arms), Skilled x2 (Perception, Stealth)

But each to his own, I guess.

Everyone's got their own GMing style, and that's fine. I like to do most calculations in my head, since it helps keep me sharp and I've got quick and easy access to most material I need.

Hah! Something like "Grasuul" would be devastating against the group I´m playing Kingmaker with. My co-players are all new to RPGs and while they managed to come up with decent builds (with a little help), they managed to prepare for this AP too well by also focusing on handling the kingdom roles mechanically right from the start (Meaning that feats like Noble Scion, Center of Power and Inspirational Commander are around, as well story feats like Dynasty Founder and Prophet). I´m playing the party wizard and I´m having a hard time not to overshadow them during combats.

Related to your PCs feat selection, I'm planning a time skip episode next session and rewarding my players with a free, modified version of the leadership feat to use to represent their noble houses and militaries. I assume everything will likely go to hell in a hand basket.

@Elric:

It´s eery how similar your kingdoms development is compared to what happens with us right now. So Stag Lord´s Fort > Temple of the Elk > Sootscale Mine > Olegs. We´re, right now, still undecided on what to engage next, Candlemere Keep or the Abandoned Keep. FWIW we´re using the Legendary Games supplements (Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle and so on) and that works quite well.

IIRC candlemere keep is the island with all the Will o' Wisps. I hate that place with an unbridled passion. So do with that info what you will.

I'm not familiar with Legendary Game's supplements. Are they worth the look?

[Florian]

Related to your PCs feat selection, I'm planning a time skip episode next session and rewarding my players with a free, modified version of the leadership feat to use to represent their noble houses and militaries. I assume everything will likely go to hell in a hand basket.



IIRC candlemere keep is the island with all the Will o' Wisps. I hate that place with an unbridled passion. So do with that info what you will.

I'm not familiar with Legendary Game's supplements. Are they worth the look?

Two of our characters have Leadership, the Noble Scion even the advanced version of it, and my wizard is very able at Planar Binding. Me and the GM were a bit wary about how all of that will turn out, but right now the Cohorts rather act as stand-in characters for handling some of the kingdom rulership and associated rolls and basic Followers have not come up so far, besides a troop of Hellknight Armigers that has already been converted to a free large army before the first real mass battle happens.

And yes, Candlemere is that: Nettles, strange aura and Wisps. Unfortunately, our healer is a Dark Tapestry Oracle and I´m pretty sure the gal playing her, a Lovecraft Mythos fan, will actually want to try and tackle the topic, maybe even recruits the Wisps as citizens of our kingdom. Playing a Backfire Adept myself, I´ll have a hard time justifying why I´d not agree to that.

As for your last question, you know the difference in quality between the kingdom/mass battle rules as presented in Kingmaker and Ultimate Campaign. It´s the same step up with the rules as presented by Ultimate Rulership/Ultimate Battle with Ultimate Commander providing a middle ground between mass battle and regular hero-centric actions. The whole thing is, again, a bit more cohesive and the rules-levels are tied together a bit better. So you´ll actually want to develop towns in a way that they will lead to being able to generate certain troop types and support them, and so on.

[Elricaltovilla]

I mean, I opened with "I'm giving you this feat for free with the understanding that you aren't going to abuse it." and I trust them to respect that, to a degree.

I think that your party will probably be disappointed by Candlemere Keep, unfortunately. I don't know if you want me to spoil anything, but it's really poorly designed, as I noted in my post when we tackled the island in my game.

[upho]

Hah! Something like "Grasuul" would be devastating against the group I´m playing Kingmaker with.

Heh, I can certainly imagine that. The "Mutant Graberration Grasuul" is definitely not for beginners. I wouldn't recommend using him even if their PCs were say 11th or 12th level instead of 8th (the level of my poor party when I had them face him), at least not in the original environment. His high combat maneuver values, extremely large threatened area and protection from murky water means also most such higher level PCs would probably still be forced to adapt new tactics to overcome those advantages. Which isn't easy, especially under the stress likely to be caused by having at least one party member grabbed, nauseated and dragged under water before any of the PCs are even able to act. On top of this, Grasuul's grabbing Savage Dirty Trick attacks and the terrain including both land and a deep pool also means the fight is likely to involve a lot of conditions and unfamiliar mechanics to keep track of for beginners. (Grasuul actually exists in Rise of the Runelords, but the original shares basically only his race, name and location with my version.)

Spoiler: Pictures! In full color!

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Here he is in all his moist and tentacled majesty, the mutant scrag troll chieftain known as "Wet Papa Grasuul".


And here's the area where the party fought him, a large room with several doors and a big 20 ft. deep pool in the middle. The 3x3 red square marked "G" is of course Grasuul, in his starting position hiding beneath the slimy algae covered dark water as the party entered from the south. The semi-transparent red area around him is the reach of his claw attacks.

My co-players are all new to RPGs and while they managed to come up with decent builds (with a little help), they managed to prepare for this AP too well by also focusing on handling the kingdom roles mechanically right from the start (Meaning that feats like Noble Scion, Center of Power and Inspirational Commander are around, as well story feats like Dynasty Founder and Prophet).

Nice. Do they seem to enjoy it?

I´m playing the party wizard and I´m having a hard time not to overshadow them during combats.

Ah yes. The backside of playing a T1 class, especially as the only experienced player in the group. Have you focused on something less effective to tone down the power, like say blasting instead of control, and/or have you made other intentionally less optimized build choices? Or do you mostly simply refrain from bringing out the "big guns" and let the others try to solve problems before you use your spells?

[Florian]

Nice. Do they seem to enjoy it?

Absolutely. As usual, It´s a joy to see new players learning their ropes and enjoying what they learn.

Ah yes. The backside of playing a T1 class, especially as the only experienced player in the group. Have you focused on something less effective to tone down the power, like say blasting instead of control, and/or have you made other intentionally less optimized build choices? Or do you mostly simply refrain from bringing out the "big guns" and let the others try to solve problems before you use your spells?

I´ve gm´ed that particular AP twice over the years and know it by heart by now, that´s why the gm asked by for helping out the newbies.

The character is pretty loaded for heavy-duty control and summoning, the usual stuff, to use when things go south fast and a hard solution is needed.

I actually try to be away from the table most of the time, stuff like cooking up dinner, preparing some sushi rolls and miso soup, mixing cocktails and all that, to have an excuse to not participate too much unless they´re in over their head and need help.

In a way, that ties in with your former post on CR ratings and expectations.

[upho]

This is really the best way to do things, but it takes a lot of work. I opt for the much lazier "make the PCs strong enough that I don't really have to think hard about what to throw at them, they'll probably survive."

Ha ha! Yeah, the problem is I had exactly the same plan, but it totally backfired on me as the players just wanted tougher challenges. So it ended up with me having to do even more work!

Seriously though, of course I "cheat" when I can get away with it, throwing easier less carefully checked and built opponents at them from time to time. Sometimes I'm even lazy enough to simply adjust the difficulty of "horde" encounters as I go, having the monsters come in waves and adjusting their numbers according to the party's condition. The amazing thing is it seems the players have so far never been able to tell when I'm winging it and when I follow a detailed plan. Which mostly means I have a pretty good poker face, I guess.

Speaking of strong PCs, at least in terms of mechanical strength, from what I'm able to deduce, the PCs in your game seem to be closer those in my game than any other I've seen/heard of. Most "standard" games seem to have quite considerably less powerful PCs, even if they use basically the same house rules as I do. And the more high-powered games instead seem to be on a completely different level, using for example gestalt, monster races and templates. Seems we both have players who like the "powerful T3" kind of PCs.

I do keep my PCs' abilities to mind when building custom enemies like this, these guys were a pretty good "anti-party" I think, if they'd been built to the same specs, the NPCs very likely would have slaughtered the PCs. Although given my dice rolling ability, that's not guaranteed.

Yeah, I think they seemed pretty competent. I really liked their opening tactics, trying to get the PCs lined up for Warp Worm by basically taking a challenging position and a haughty stare. Exactly the kind of shenanigans I taunt my poor players with.

Did anything in this combat surprise you btw, turning out very different than what you had imagined when planning the encounter and building the NPCs?

I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I said as the idea that CR is balanced or accurate in general. It works much better when building things from scratch though, because you have a reasonable means of comparison in the monster design tables. Still, as with everything in PF, you need to exercise caution and play to your party's abilities.

Oh, I hope I didn't misconstrue anything you said, because that certainly wasn't my intent. Though the "But CR also sucks!" spoiler heading was kinda tongue-in-cheek, it was more a comment on how I feel people seem to put way too much trust in CR, not realizing CR is not anyway near an accurate "power" or "threat" indicator unless they actually compare numbers to those expected in the monster creation rules. Also, actual such "power" or "threat" level may vary significantly between two creatures of the same CR, often depending on specific abilities and, most importantly, the specific abilities of the party facing the creatures, neither of which CR really takes into account. As shown, it doesn't even recognize that feats can sometimes pretty drastically change actual power level.

When I read posts with people claiming, for example, that PC builds of a certain level have "power" equal to that of a certain monster of the same CR according to the guidelines, I just go facepalm. Even more surprisingly, many people claiming such things may on the other hand say they're fully aware of the great differences in "power" between for example a 15th level fighter and a 15th level wizard. To me, that example illustrates pretty well how much of an inaccurate estimation CR actually is, especially when it comes to PC classes. Likewise, some people react with disbelief, and even start questioning whether I use the correct rules, if I mention the 8th level party in my game killed a CR 15 dragon in less than three rounds in a straight-up fight. None of them bothers to ask the actually appropriate questions, namely what the stats and abilities of the PC's actually are, what those of a CR 15 dragon actually are, and how this encounter actually played out. If they had known the answers, it certainly would've made a lot more sense to them, but instead they're fixating on the supposed "impossibility" of APL 8 beating CR 15.

That said, I agree it's a lot better when used specifically to create new monsters, like you say, and it's a decent rough guideline and good for categorization of monsters, making it easier to find something appropriate.

They definitely exist. Most don't come directly out and say it, but it becomes apparent in the conversations I've had with them about encounter design. I remain steadfast in my position that a monster's job is to do something cool or interesting, then die.

Well, considering how I've seen people treat CR, I shouldn't be surprised. And FWIW, I'm "steadfasting" with you!