Who is being mind controlled?

[The_Alec]

As we know Parson is compelled by the summoning spell to obey Stanley’s commands. Jillian seems to be under some type of charm spell causing her to like and obey Wanda.

But are any of the other characters in this comic being controlled?

In comic #6 Wanda refuses a direct order from Stanly then says that she is “allowed” to do this because she believes it will lead to his ruin. Could it be that she is under some type of loyalty spell that forces her to follow his commands unless she thinks it goes against his best interests? It could explain why she is following someone who is obviously less intelligent then herself.

This also brings up the question of why Wanda is using a charm spell on Jillian rather a direct control spell like she used on Mung. Could it be Jillian is also under a loyalty spell by Ansom so that is why Wanda can not command her to betray him?

Finally in the most recent comic Ansom “revokes” Vinnie’s right to ask him difficult questions. It comes across as a joke but could Ansom really have that much control over him?

What do people think?

[jindra34]

I think except for JIllian its not mind control but comand control... aka anyone who is your comander can give you orders that you generally have to obey... we only have one situation in which defiance is allowed but i suspect there are others...

[Erk]

Parson's isn't absolute mind control. We can see from Stanley's order to "stand up" when he first arrived that he can resist orders. I assume Wanda is the same. Trouble is if they resist/go against orders, I am sure Stanley knows instantly and can disband 'em.

[Maerad of Pellinor]

I'm pretty sure Wanda's just loyal; she doesn't seem to be under mind control from anyone....

[omaha]

I don't think that Jillian is being mind-controlled at all, or is under any spell...save for the spell of human nature. I think that Wanda has seduced her, pure and simple.

Wanda and Jillian obviously have a prior relationship...that seemed pretty obvious from Erf 36, when the two started that girlie conversation (and after Wanda told her she could speak freely now), and Jillian said, "Oh, you hate that stuff, don't you?" as though she already knew something about Wanda personally. And in Erf 38, there was most definitely an empathy going on between the two, especially with Jillian towards Wanda.

But I think the most telling was Erf 41. Wanda may have said, "I control her mind" but she also said that it was complex, that she couldn't force Jillian to do certain things. The images in 41 told why that was so. She doesn't control Jillian's mind through classic spells, she controls her through seduction. And Wanda can't just order Jillian to disobey Ansom, or betray him...someone who is seduced might see through the seduction with such blatant orders or demands.

No, Wanda has to be careful of what manipulative requests she makes of Jillian, lest Jillian see through the seduction.

At least, that's how I see it. :)

[Maerad of Pellinor]

Wanda and Ansom have something in common--They both don't know if they can trust Jillian but have no choice but to trust her at least partially....I wonder if that will become relevent to the plot later on.

[SteveMB]

This also brings up the question of why Wanda is using a charm spell on Jillian rather a direct control spell like she used on Mung. Could it be Jillian is also under a loyalty spell by Ansom so that is why Wanda can not command her to betray him?

I think it's simply a matter of Jillian (a "hero"-level character) being more resistant than Mung (a grunt).

As a couple folks already noted on this thread, Wanda's control is based on an emotional and psychological bond she has fostered. While she used some kind of spell on Jillian, that seems to have been a supplement for her other methods, not a mind-control spell sufficient in itself to control her (Scientivore described it as a "hypnotism" spell), and we don't know if she had routinely used it during previous sessions (the "very hard way" comment would seem to imply not).

While I think the spell was fairly powerful (the most straightforward interpretation of Jillian's emotional "crash" is that the end of the spell during the dawn "reset" was followed by sudden unpleasant realizations as her mind cleared from its effects), it was certainly not a "mind control" spell in the usual sense of placing the subject completely in the caster's power. That said, it seems possible to me that Jillian believes that she is under a real "mind control" spell (she presumably doesn't know any more than any other layperson about what Erfworld magic can and cannot do, and such a belief would make it very easy to avoid facing any difficult questions of "knowing what she wants").

Edit: If that last theory is correct, the illusion of mind control makes it easier for Wanda to manipulate Jillian, but raises the risk. If she pushes it too hard just once, asking Jillian to do something she finds herself refusing to do, the illusion would unravel....

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I think it's simply a matter of Jillian (a "hero"-level character) being more resistant than Mung (a grunt).

Along those lines, I'd say it's more of a matter of the spell on Jillian having more subtle (not necessarily weaker) effects so that Ansom and company cannot detect it easily.

[Innis Cabal]

well i think they know she is being used, since Vinny said something about Ansom croaking her

[Scientivore]

well i think they know she is being used, since Vinny said something about Ansom croaking her

It seemed to me that it was said in the joking way that people talk about "killing" a loved one for making them worry.

[Woot Spitum]

Look at it in strategy gaming terms. Ansome and Stanley are warlords. All their units are under their control. Basically their units have to move and take actions more or less as commanded. They can fulfill their commands in their own ways, but they still have to fulfill them. I believe the point Wanda is trying to make is that while she does exert a certain amount of control over Jillian, Jillian is still one of Ansome's units and can't be ordered to do anything on the battlemap. If she were converted into one of Stanley's units, she could, but that would prevent her from feeding Wanda intelligence, inadvertantly luring Ansome into a trap, or any other ploy.

[Bogardan_Mage]

In comic #6 Wanda refuses a direct order from Stanly then says that she is “allowed” to do this because she believes it will lead to his ruin. Could it be that she is under some type of loyalty spell that forces her to follow his commands unless she thinks it goes against his best interests? It could explain why she is following someone who is obviously less intelligent then herself.

[snip]

Finally in the most recent comic Ansom “revokes” Vinnie’s right to ask him difficult questions. It comes across as a joke but could Ansom really have that much control over him?

It's. A. WAR! They are in ARMIES! They follow their respective generals, who give them orders. This does not require mind control! Which is pretty much what I said the last time this came up. Why does everyone have to have a sinister motive? Why can nobody be opperating of their own free will? Why can't a cigar just be a cigar, for Scrivan's sake?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Why can't a cigar just be a cigar, for Scrivan's sake?

Because smoking's bad for you?

[Larrin]

It's. A. WAR! They are in ARMIES! They follow their respective generals, who give them orders. This does not require mind control! Which is pretty much what I said the last time this came up. Why does everyone have to have a sinister motive? Why can nobody be opperating of their own free will? Why can't a cigar just be a cigar, for Scrivan's sake?

he he, and as the person who brought it up "last time", i was just saying, there could well be something else, and it would be an informative piece of insight into the rules of the "Game" if we knew how commonplace controling restraints are.

And cigars can't just be cigars. Not in Erfworld's landscape of jokes within jokes. In erfword, if you think you see a cigar, its probably actually ansom's flying carpet.....

[mewcuno]

I believe that since Wanda claims the control to be "complex" means that there is a complexer relationship going on here. Possibly a relationship of two sisters? that is not an unheard of story.

[Glome]

I don't see how anyone would be able to mind control Wanda, being the most powerful spellcaster we've seen so far, and most probably the most powerful one in Stanley's army. Unless Wanda is really a dwagon, Stanley would have to order Wanda to cast a mind control spell on herself, which sounds pretty absurd. I really don't think some lesser caster would stand a chance of enspelling her, nor would she actually be going out of her way to save Stanley's hide if she was enspelled.

There is a reason that officers in every military work on a volunteer basis unlike enlisted which are drafted. It's the same reason that Stanley wanted someone who would actually wanted to be his warlord even though he had the power to dismiss him with a thought. When it comes down to it, you just can't order someone to 'think' for you. Part of Wanda's and Parson job involving thinking, they are officers and have to be wanting their side to win. Parson is somewhat unusual in that he's tolerant enough of his indentured servitude that he still wants their side to win. Wanda on the other hand, I can't see her continued loyalty to the tool if she was enslaved to serving Stanley, which she obviously has shown so far.

As for Jillian, if she was under some sort of mind control from Ansom, he would have stopped her from flying the scouting mission. He probably would have also compelled her to sleep with him. If he had no moral qualms about enslaving his officers, he certainly wouldn't have any moral qualms about using that power to his advantage. Also, Ansom would have run across the same problem mentioned above about unwilling officers.

In short, it's as unlikely as hell that either Wanda or Jillian are enspelled by their respective commanders. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences for disobeying direct orders from their commanders, but like all officers they have the ability to disobey orders and deal with the consequences later. Under certain circumstances where the officer has much better intelligence of the situation then their superior, it is often tolerated and even encouraged that the officer disobey their commanders (at least when doing so turns a defeat into a victory). None of this would be possible if what you say is true though, and it would just make them less likely to win wars because of it.

[SteveMB]

I believe that since Wanda claims the control to be "complex" means that there is a complexer relationship going on here.

There are lots of complexities in that relationship, to be sure, but I think Wanda really meant "something I don't want to explain even if I thought you'd understand".

[Bogardan_Mage]

he he, and as the person who brought it up "last time", i was just saying, there could well be something else, and it would be an informative piece of insight into the rules of the "Game" if we knew how commonplace controling restraints are.

Yes, but there's a difference between trying to figure out how commonplace they are and seeing them everywhere.

And cigars can't just be cigars. Not in Erfworld's landscape of jokes within jokes. In erfword, if you think you see a cigar, its probably actually ansom's flying carpet.....

If this is a joke, I don't find it funny. As I said, it's sinister. Nobody acting of their own free will, everyone bound by magical restrictions and so forth. I'm not laughing.

But whether it's funny or important to the plot or even correct is irrelevant, because there's a much simpler explaination. Both interactions (Stanley/Wanda and Ansom/Vinnie) are consistant with General/Soldier (or possibly General/Trusted Lieutenant) interactions. And Wanda/Jillian has... other explainations. I think there are just too many people here looking for the slightest hint that Stanley and/or Ansom is a dark evil and will take every single word out of context if they have to in order to prove it.

[The_Alec]

If Wanda, Jillian and Vinne were under some kind mental influence from their commanding officer I would not see this as a sign of them being evil. Rather I would see it as yet another example of Erf world being a warped reflection of our own world.

All armies require that their troops voluntarily swear an oath of loyalty to their commander in chief. In a world in which magic is real perhaps such oaths have magical consequences. We can’t project our own cultural norms upon this world and say it would never happen because people would find it too “sinister”. It might just be considered a normal part of war and the best way of defending your troops from mind control from the enemy.

Besides, in a world that is modeled on a tabletop strategy game it seems somehow appropriate that a general’s troops would act as an extension of his will.

[SteveMB]

All armies require that their troops voluntarily swear an oath of loyalty to their commander in chief. In a world in which magic is real perhaps such oaths have magical consequences. We can’t project our own cultural norms upon this world and say it would never happen because people would find it too “sinister”. It might just be considered a normal part of war and the best way of defending your troops from mind control from the enemy.

The possibility that this is just part of the way things work in Erfworld, like the dawn "reset" functions (rations, healing, cleansing, and the like) seems to me like the most straightforward interpretation of Wanda's "I'm allowed" comment.

[Xerxos]

[...]
Finally in the most recent comic Ansom “revokes” Vinnie’s right to ask him difficult questions. It comes across as a joke but could Ansom really have that much control over him?

What do people think?

Hm, could it be that according to the rules that the one who "owns" the birthplace(spawning place) of a unit gets "control" of that unit?

Think about Heroes of Might and Magic, where you could buy enemy units if you captured the corresponding building...

These vampires (who seem to be more of a "evil" unit,) are perhaps trained after Ansom captured a "vampire lair" and are thus under his complete control?

It seems logical for this world... How many strategy games do you know where you haven't got complete control over all your units?

[Flakey]

Its a mistake to compare the powers of Ansom and Stanley, because they are not the same positions.

Ansom directly coresponds to Parsons. Stanleys equivilent in the attacking army is King Slatley.

One thing is clear now, is that mercanary units, and/or leaders are in the rules. Which begs the question is Jillian a mercanary leader type? How does that reflect the compulsions, if there are any on obeying leaders by those types of units.

[SteveMB]

Which begs the question is Jillian a mercanary leader type?

It says "Mercenary Commander" right there on the cast page.

[Flakey]

It says "Mercenary Commander" right there on the cast page.

Granted, but still leavs the main question on what effect that has on loyalty and needing to obey something in the game mechanics. Is this part of the reason that Ansom does not fully trust Jillian.

[jindra34]

Granted, but still leavs the main question on what effect that has on loyalty and needing to obey something in the game mechanics. Is this part of the reason that Ansom does not fully trust Jillian.

It means she is likey more loyal to money than anyone in particular...

[Bogardan_Mage]

If Wanda, Jillian and Vinne were under some kind mental influence from their commanding officer I would not see this as a sign of them being evil. Rather I would see it as yet another example of Erf world being a warped reflection of our own world.

My bad. Most people do, however. I swear, Ansom can't sneeze without someone here taking it as a confession of being Satan incarnate.

All armies require that their troops voluntarily swear an oath of loyalty to their commander in chief. In a world in which magic is real perhaps such oaths have magical consequences. We can’t project our own cultural norms upon this world and say it would never happen because people would find it too “sinister”. It might just be considered a normal part of war and the best way of defending your troops from mind control from the enemy.

I didn't say it would never happen because it was sinister, I said it wouldn't be funny. Please don't confuse my responses to other people with my responses to you. Hence this:

But whether it's funny or important to the plot or even correct is irrelevant, because there's a much simpler explaination.

The point is not that it's sinister (that just means I don't find it particularly funny), the point is it's unnecessary! "I can't even see his points" or "Prepare to end the turn" reveal a form of combat drastically different from our own world. "I'm allowed"? Not so much. Sure, you could take it as that, but it's so much simpler to just take it as it appears. Why assume it has magical consequences when it doesn't need them?

Besides, in a world that is modeled on a tabletop strategy game it seems somehow appropriate that a general’s troops would act as an extension of his will.

But they clearly don't. They all have individual personalities. I see what you're getting at now, but there's no evidence at all for it. It's pure conjecture.