My Little Pony LXXXVIII: They told me not to Ponythread, but I didn't listen!

[b_jonas]

Bleakbane Watches:

Sweet and Elite

Secrets of My Excess

[Aside]It does suddenly strike me that I don't ever recall seeing any Twilight/Zecora stories, as you'd have though the two would have make an decent match. (Certainly no worse than... well, any of the other major cast!)

Family Appreciation Day

What are you talking about? Besides S1 E9 Bridle Gossip, where Twilight and Apple Bloom are the only ones that defend Zecora, there's S3 E5 Magic Duel where Zecora mentors Twilight and helps him defeat Trixie. (There's also a shorter interaction in S2 E2.)

[Derjuin]

I can't help but see her cutie mark as two ice cream cones, one chocolate, one vanilla.

But yeah, good motion, nice design, good work.

It's actually two greyscale roses; the red outline and the eye are from... something else. dun dun DUUN

That was my thought too. I think it's the bony structures that do it.

Those are actually all metal; specifically, white gold. Though I can see how they look like bone, what with not having any shiny reflecty light bars and stuff on them.

[Forum Explorer]

What are you talking about? Besides S1 E9 Bridle Gossip, where Twilight and Apple Bloom are the only ones that defend Zecora, there's S3 E5 Magic Duel where Zecora mentors Twilight and helps him defeat Trixie. (There's also a shorter interaction in S2 E2.)

I think he's referring to fanfics.

[Thanqol]

Someone did a reading of Do Not Serve These Ponies. I can confirm that this is 100% canonically what everyone sounds like in this story.

[b_jonas]

In today's Inexplicable Adventures of Bob strip, we find out that Galatea is Molly's sister after all, because she wants ponies too.

[DigoDragon]

Those are actually all metal; specifically, white gold.

Ah, it's rare that I see a pony wear white gold. I approve.

In today's Inexplicable Adventures of Bob strip, we find out that Galatea is Molly's sister after all, because she wants ponies too.

Huh, that eyeball critter in the first panel looks like Fwiffo.

[Gavinfoxx]

Interested conceptually but I'm pretty much done with that system. Too glass cannon-y. Good luck!

The characters start at level 11. And I am using several house rules that make perks MUCH better. Does that help?

[MCerberus]

All According to Plan...

Spoiler

Show

And was Trenderhoof part of her master plan then?

[DigoDragon]

And was Trenderhoof part of her master plan then?

He was an obstacle in AJ's path.

Spoiler

Show

Headcanon'd?

Spoiler

Show

[b_jonas]

Do you recall the climax of Rainbow Rocks, when the Rainbooms together with Sunset Shimmer produces a large floating alicorn shaped guardian that defeats the Sirens? That guardian is none other than a Patronus, the same magic as used in the Harry Potter series. The band could produce that magic only after they've put their petty disagreements aside, and started to concentrate on their happy memories together as friends.

-----

Update: Oh, and a different thing. S1 E1 mentions a pony named Moondancer. S1 E23 shows Twilight's father, Night Light, who has two moons as his cutie mark. S5 E2 shows Night Glider, a pegasus with a moon cutie mark. S2 E4 and S4 E11 both depicts Starswirl the Bearded with moons on his costume. That's a lot of moons from ponies why supposedly shun and sleep through the night.

[Forum Explorer]

Update: Oh, and a different thing. S1 E1 mentions a pony named Moondancer. S1 E23 shows Twilight's father, Night Light, who has two moons as his cutie mark. S5 E2 shows Night Glider, a pegasus with a moon cutie mark. S2 E4 and S4 E11 both depicts Starswirl the Bearded with moons on his costume. That's a lot of moons from ponies why supposedly shun and sleep through the night.

Modern day ponies don't, and in fact most of their holidays and celebrations now take place at night (Hearth's Warming, Grand Galloping Gala, Nightmare Night, Summer Sun Celebration), which I say points to Celestia spending the last 1000 years manipulating pony society so that when Luna returned, there would be plenty of ponies that appreciated the night.


Starswirl on the other hoof, could have been part of the night crew. That is to say, he helped raise the moon, since he existed in a time before Luna and Celestia.

[b_jonas]

Celestia spending the last 1000 years manipulating pony society so that when Luna returned, there would be plenty of ponies that appreciated the night.

Wow.

That's the kind of persistence I'd only expect from Daneel Olivaw. (Mind you, in the spinoff series we'll probably find Daneel has been manipulating Princess Celestia and all the other important characters in turn. He has probably deliberately nudged Cerberus to leave his post so that Tirek can escape.)

[Forum Explorer]

Wow.

That's the kind of persistency I'd only expect from Daneel Olivaw. (Mind you, in the spinoff series we'll probably find Daneel has been manipulating Princess Celestia and all the other important characters in turn. He has probably deliberately nudged Cerberus to leave his post so that Tirek can escape.)

I have no idea what you are referring to here, but the fact that Celestia is still working as the ruler of Equestria proves her level of persistence.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Rater Ranting about stuff tht pissed him off today

Show

So today was good day. Got finals done, everything easier, even finished Soc final fast enough to have plenty of time to do optional extra credit bonus exam.

Then I get home and learn that my stepfather went into my room, without my permission, and took the sheet off of my bed, my blankets, my pillow cases, the actual gods damned pillow(Leaving me with just pillow stuffing) and the (cleen) clothes I laid out to change into once I got home for laundry.

He might have had a point, if it wasn't a week before my sheets had to be changed, if I hand't made the bed this morning, and if he had, I don't know, gave me sheets and blankets to replace the stuff he took.

And hadn;t gone into my room without my permission in the first place, since he hasn't been allowed in there since I was in middle school.(he had a bad habit of going in their to "clean" and then throwing away my trading cards or board game pieces-you won't believe how many Yu-gi-oh cards I lost like that.)

And then he has the nerve to yell at me for going down to the basement(which is has a four foot ceiling-I'm six foot one inch) and getting back the stuff he took. Including the clean clothes I had set out to change into once I got home.

And then I found out that mother told him not to take the stuff from my room, but he did it anyway.

Then he calls me a slob and says my "clean" room needs to be cleaned. To which i responded that the damn hypocrite has to be reminded five times to pick up his dog's ****.

My step father likes to pick fights over stupid stuff and piss people off,that's what I'm saying.

So now that my otherwise perfect day has been ruined, I could really go for something cute and/or cuddly.

[DigoDragon]

which I say points to Celestia spending the last 1000 years manipulating pony society so that when Luna returned, there would be plenty of ponies that appreciated the night.

If I were a near-immortal pretty pony alicorn princess with absolute power and the most C&D Tumblr blogs named after me i'd totally manipulate pony society for my imprisoned sister's benefit.

Spoiler: Rater Ranting about stuff tht pissed him off today

Show

So today was good day. Got finals done, everything easier, even finished Soc final fast enough to have plenty of time to do optional extra credit bonus exam.

Then I get home and learn that my stepfather went into my room, without my permission, and took the sheet off of my bed, my blankets, my pillow cases, the actual gods damned pillow(Leaving me with just pillow stuffing) and the (cleen) clothes I laid out to change into once I got home for laundry.

He might have had a point, if it wasn't a week before my sheets had to be changed, if I hand't made the bed thismorining, and if he had, I don't know, gave me sheets and blankets to replace the stuff he took.

And hadn;t gone into my room without my permission in the first place, since he hasn't been allowed in there since I was in middle school.(he had a bad habit of going in their to "clean" and then throwing away my trading cards or board game pieces-I lost $60 dolars in trading cards like that)

And then he has the nerve to yell at me for going down to the basement(which is has a four foot cieling-I'm six foot one ince) and getting back the stuff he took. Including the clean clothes I had set out to change into once I got home.

And then I found out that mother told him not to take the stuff from my room, but he did it anyway.

Then he calls me a slob and says my "clean" room needs to be cleaned. To which i responded that the damn hypocrite has to be reminded five times to pick up his dog's ****.

My step father likes to pick fights over stupid stuff and piss people off,that's what I'm saying.

So now that my otherwise perfect day has been ruined, I could really go for something cute and/or cuddly.

Huh, so now I know you're about 12-13 inches taller than I am.

Spoiler

Show

[cavalieredraghi]

Spoiler: cute and cuddly for rater

Show

[Thanqol]

The characters start at level 11. And I am using several house rules that make perks MUCH better. Does that help?

Not particularly. It's still a hack of a RPG based off a computer game from the 90s. I don't regret the year long campaign I played with it but I wouldn't do it again.

The other side of it is that Apocalypse World is objectively the superior system for gaming in the post apocalypse.

[Aotrs Commander]

Age of Ultron was amazing and awesome and amazing!

Pony avenger image dump!

Spoiler

Show

Wait, what... No! That... wasn't what I had in mind!

Hang on...

Spoiler

Show

...

I...

Huh.

[DigoDragon]

The other side of it is that Apocalypse World is objectively the superior system for gaming in the post apocalypse.

I couldn't get into AW myself. It's an okay system, but too abstract for my personal tastes.

I've only run one post apocalypse game in my history, and I used GURPS. But then, this was a time where dial-up modems were still a big deal.

Hang on...

Spoiler

Show

LOL, I like it.

[Pendulous]

Clearly not my best work: http://grumpy-moogle.deviantart.com/...nted-531463995

[Thanqol]

I couldn't get into AW myself. It's an okay system, but too abstract for my personal tastes.

Too abstract? I don't think that's a fair criticism. No, it gets to the point.

In D&D there's a question, "Are you a good fighter?". To answer that you have to look at a shifting collage of classes, supporting skills, teamwork, feats, BAB, AC, gear, tactics, HP rolls, etc. The answer is obfuscated so the entire game is a struggle to figure out the answer to that basic question.

In AW there's a question, "Are you a good fighter?". To answer that you take the Gunlugger playbook and the move "NOT TO BE ****ED WITH". And now you're the best fighter! You're such a good fighter you can kill fifteen dudes single handed. Awesome. So now that we've established that let's start getting to the really interesting part: What does the best fighter want to do today?

Here's a game in progress. I don't think abstraction is one of our issues.

[Dexam]

And was Trenderhoof part of her master plan then?

Spoiler: All according to plan, darling

Show

[DigoDragon]

In D&D there's a question, "Are you a good fighter?". To answer that you have to look at a shifting collage of classes, supporting skills, teamwork, feats, BAB, AC, gear, tactics, HP rolls, etc. The answer is obfuscated so the entire game is a struggle to figure out the answer to that basic question.

In AW there's a question, "Are you a good fighter?". To answer that you take the Gunlugger playbook and the move "NOT TO BE ****ED WITH". And now you're the best fighter! You're such a good fighter you can kill fifteen dudes single handed. Awesome. So now that we've established that let's start getting to the really interesting part: What does the best fighter want to do today?

But see, I like the skills, teamwork, feats, gear, tactics, etc. They're options for which I can build myself a specific type of fighter I want. Moving one option isn't enough for my personal preference. I would like to have ten options to choose from and I pick five. I don't need to be the best fighter, I just want abilities to tailor myself to be interesting in a fight.

Spoiler: All according to plan, darling

Show

One of AJ's best moments ever.

[Thanqol]

But see, I like the skills, teamwork, feats, gear, tactics, etc. They're options for which I can build myself a specific type of fighter I want. Moving one option isn't enough for my personal preference. I would like to have ten options to choose from and I pick five. I don't need to be the best fighter, I just want abilities to tailor myself to be interesting in a fight.

That is all colour. You don't need your colour to be associated with math.

The small, wiry, cunning midget with the pistol who fights with genius strategy. The huge hulking bruiser with the autocannon. The wiry, graceful acrobat who jumps and flips and blows her opponents away. At their heart the only thing they are saying is that they are good at fighting. The only thing a system will give you is saying, 'objectively, the smart midget is better at fighting than the big guy', or, 'the acrobat can beat the big guy, but the big guy can beat the midget'. You run the rabbit maze of illusionary choice until you work out what the best build is, and then you have to decide how far you are willing to walk from that to play something that interests you.

The question, though is always 'are you good at fighting?'. The only thing you have gained from a complex system is to make the answer complicated, conditional and ambiguous.

Such a style absolutely has its place, though. In a straight up wargame that's exactly what I want. The combination of trade-offs and strategies and counters are the point and I can spend plenty of afternoons just organising spreadsheets to math out the effectiveness of my space ships. That's fun, don't let anyone tell you different.

But when I game I want my math fights to be fun, brutal, and an utmost test of strategy - I don't want my GM to throw me lowballs. On the other hand, I want my roleplaying to get to the point without needing to go through an elaborate math fight every time something happens. When I roleplay I have much more interesting questions in mind than 'who is the best at fighting?'

Have your math be good. Have your gaming be good. Do not compromise one for the other.

[DigoDragon]

The question, though is always 'are you good at fighting?'. The only thing you have gained from a complex system is to make the answer complicated, conditional and ambiguous.

Different strokes though. I've used complex systems like GURPS and I can math it pretty quickly in my head. I can get an answer without ambiguity. It's like a Baskin Robbins store, the one with 51 flavors of ice cream. In the twenty-ish years I've been gaming I've tried many flavors, but there are always a select few I fell the most comfort with and go back to those when the option is presented.

But I do try all the flavors. The one AW game I tried out was alright. Like I said, it just felt like I didn't have many things I could do with the system's crunch. Maybe it was the GM I played under or maybe the mechanics wasn't explained right, but that's just how I feel. Don't let me get in the way of your game. If it works for you then awesome! Send me some funny quotes when you get them. :D

On the other hand, I want my roleplaying to get to the point without needing to go through an elaborate math fight every time something happens. When I roleplay I have much more interesting questions in mind than 'who is the best at fighting?'

As a GM, I find that good RP is independent of the system. When I put together a campaign idea, the system is usually one of the latter things chosen. Though I admit the one exception is probably Shadowrun. Because it's Shadowrun. Still was one of the best RP campaigns I ever ran, but I blame that fun on the group of players I had. Once in a blue moon thing. <3


Redheart in a old-timey WWI look--

Spoiler

Show

[Thanqol]

Don't let me get in the way of your game. If it works for you then awesome!

Oh, there's zero chance of that. I just think that your view is doesn't match the reality I percieve and I want to correct any mistaken assumptions you have. If it turns out you get it just fine and it's not your thing then, yeah, that'd be all there is to it.

But I do try all the flavors. The one AW game I tried out was alright. Like I said, it just felt like I didn't have many things I could do with the system's crunch. Maybe it was the GM I played under or maybe the mechanics wasn't explained right, but that's just how I feel.

This is just straight confusing to me. What do you want to be able to do with the system's crunch? Say Keeler is coming right at you from across the room and he's screaming and swinging, like, an entire solar panel at you. What do you want to be able to do?

It wasn't immediately obvious to a lot of people how a complex, extended fight in Apocalypse World. I got sick of trying to explain the theory and decided to just straight up run one that I use as my go-to example. In this fight, ponies blow away entire buildings, intimidate civilians, aggressively take cover, co-ordinate the violent responses of dozens of other ponies, assert their leadership, travel to other dimensions, perform emergency field surgery and a dozen other things. Nobody is gagging for lack of things to do given the crunch.

In fact, way more choices and decisions are being made in every paragraph than was in any of the fights that happened when the game was using the Fallout Equestria system, where combat choices usually boiled down to 'I attack! *roll* Miss!' Same players, same MC, but compare any of the fights from the earlier threads to that one and you'll see that so much more is being done.

As a GM, I find that good RP is independent of the system. When I put together a campaign idea, the system is usually one of the latter things chosen. Though I admit the one exception is probably Shadowrun. Because it's Shadowrun. Still was one of the best RP campaigns I ever ran, but I blame that fun on the group of players I had. Once in a blue moon thing. <3

I think that's a popular belief because most systems are so bad at encouraging good RP. Of course the people matter more than anything else - good friends can have fun doing anything together - but that doesn't mean system is meaningless or without value.

[MCerberus]

We all know the proper system to implement with ponies.

Paranoia

[Dexam]

Too abstract? I don't think that's a fair criticism. No, it gets to the point.

In D&D there's a question, "Are you a good fighter?". To answer that you have to look at a shifting collage of classes, supporting skills, teamwork, feats, BAB, AC, gear, tactics, HP rolls, etc. The answer is obfuscated so the entire game is a struggle to figure out the answer to that basic question.

In AW there's a question, "Are you a good fighter?". To answer that you take the Gunlugger playbook and the move "NOT TO BE ****ED WITH". And now you're the best fighter! You're such a good fighter you can kill fifteen dudes single handed. Awesome. So now that we've established that let's start getting to the really interesting part: What does the best fighter want to do today?

Here's a game in progress. I don't think abstraction is one of our issues.

The way I see it, D&D is paint-by-numbers, where the player gets to decide which colours apply to which numbers, and I use this to paint my picture of "a good fighter".

The way you're describing AW, it sounds like with two broad strokes of paint you're telling me it's a picture of the best fighter in the world. If that's not abstract, I don't know what is? Because if you're trying to sell it as "not abstract", you're doing it wrong because I'm not buying it.

Not that there's anything wrong with abstract. I like abstract, in certain situations (my taste in song lyrics can often attest to that). Abstract has it's place - the right tool for the right job, and all that.

Back to your example:

If the question in D&D is "Are you good fighter?", my response is to create a character and say "Give me an adventure and let's find out together."

If the question in AW is "Are you good fighter?", apparently the response is to pick two options and reply "No, I'm the best fighter." It's a top-down versus bottom-up approach, and the two aren't easily comparable.

I find that good RP is independent of the system.

Spoiler

Show

That's not to say that some systems aren't better designed at encouraging the "role" in "roleplaying", but I've found that RPers will RP regardless of the mechanics or setting; and sometimes the mechanics and/or setting will not appeal to certain players who are after certain things from their game, which will tend to discourage RP. It's all horses for courses.

[Thanqol]

We all know the proper system to implement with ponies.

Paranoia

I'd pay it.

The way I see it, D&D is paint-by-numbers, where the player gets to decide which colours apply to which numbers, and I use this to paint my picture of "a good fighter".

The way you're describing AW, it sounds like with two broad strokes of paint you're telling me it's a picture of the best fighter in the world. If that's not abstract, I don't know what is? Because if you're trying to sell it as "not abstract", you're doing it wrong because I'm not buying it.

Not that there's anything wrong with abstract. I like abstract, in certain situations (my taste in song lyrics can often attest to that). Abstract has it's place - the right tool for the right job, and all that.

This is strange, because it's the difference between, "If you know advanced D&D theory and look at my collection of abstract character build decisions, including feats, skills, gear, etc, an emergant property of all of this math is that this person is a good fighter. It's something you have to discover, and even then it's based on crap like how lenient your GM is and so on.

Back to your example:

If the question in D&D is "Are you good fighter?", my response is to create a character and say "Give me an adventure and let's find out together."

Yeah exactly, that's the question that D&D asks and D&D answers. The entire game is based around answering that basic question of are you good at fighting. The answer to the question is obfuscated, you don't know if you're a good fighter or not, you have to wade through all kinds of crap before you can even answer that fundamental question. And that's fine if that's the question you're really, really interested in.

If the question in AW is "Are you good fighter?", apparently the response is to pick two options and reply "No, I'm the best fighter." It's a top-down versus bottom-up approach, and the two aren't easily comparable.

Yep! In AW it's like, okay, you're the best. What does the best fighter do today?

And that's when you start getting answers that are (to me) interesting. Like, if the question is "do I get to be the best fighter" then the answer is "go out and get into fights". If being the best fighter is just something they are already you hear things like, "I'm going to take over this town", or "I'm going to hope no one ticks me off because if I kill anyone else then the boss is going to dock my wages", or "I'm going to see if I can collect enough money to get Old Toldam to teach me how to read".

And it goes the other way too. "Sal, the best fighter in town walks into your bar, what do you do?" Sal: "Crap! Uh, for you, drinks on the house!" or, "My friend, just the person I wanted to see! I've got this problem, see..." or, "You're not coming back in here until you pay off the damages from last time!"

See, the fact that this dude's an awesome fighter is creating an interesting, uneven power dynamic between these two characters. You get that sometimes by accident with a system like D&D but that's after people have already been through that rigmarole of proving themselves and levelling up and so on, but AW it starts you with the dynamic you want to see.

That's not to say that some systems aren't better designed at encouraging the "role" in "roleplaying", but I've found that RPers will RP regardless of the mechanics or setting; and sometimes the mechanics and/or setting will not appeal to certain players who are after certain things from their game, which will tend to discourage RP. It's all horses for courses.

Sure. Look at Threads 1 and 2 of Tea Party, people are still being clever and witty and all that. But look, specifically, at the difference between the fight scenes of those threads as compared to thread 3 and it's not even in the same ballpark.

[MCerberus]

I'd pay it.

The Sunbutt is your friend