[Unchained] VMC Builds for Fluff and Crunch

[Psyren]

Oh, is that Italian?

Basically where I was going is that (a) Bloodrager can be any alignment, allowing you to be a LG rage-using VMC Paladin, (b) they get access to rage powers with the primalist archetype, and (c) there is both Cha and Str synergy between the two.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The reason I suggested Paladin/VMC!Barbarian is that 1) can't do it via standard multiclassing, and 2) even with rage-cycling done with, I'm sure you can think of something to do with removing the fatigue. Essentially does away with the need for Moment of Clarity (I think) since you can just lay on hands to remove Fatigue so you can cast a spell, if necessary. Also, it's kinda flavorful.

[Snowbluff]

Oh, is that Italian?

Yes. The "ch" makes a "k" sounds.

Basically where I was going is that (a) Bloodrager can be any alignment, allowing you to be a LG rage-using VMC Paladin, (b) they get access to rage powers with the primalist archetype, and (c) there is both Cha and Str synergy between the two.

Ah, okay. I haven't looked at the Bloodrager list, but I think I like the paladin one pretty well.

[twilsemail]

No more 1/rage powers, all of them are 1/day.

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

[Psyren]

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

No, the THP can only be gained 1/minute (i.e. every 10 rounds, so effectively 1/combat.)

[deuxhero]

You could already rage!Paladin already: Just take the rage subdomain via Sacred Servant (Indeed, that combo is supposed to be a decent chunk of Ragathiel's followers). Paladin+Barbarian VMC actually works before 11th level though (you can combine them though for lots of rage and extra powers in exchange for fewer smites. If your GM allows it, both Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengence, both add additional spells to Spells but otherwise don't change it, to trade 2 LoH for an extra smite)

I saw a few people elsewhere talking about grabbing swashbuckler's Precise Strike through using VMC Magus to pickup Arcane Deed (and Evasive). Does that work (assume grabbing that deed though arcane deed works in the first place, as there's been some questions about Arcane Deed never saying how abilities that use Swashbuckler level worked.)? Seems like it could be decent on a Dawnflower Dervish Bard.

[Secret Wizard]

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

1. THP is, as stated, 1/minute.

2. That's munchkin town.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

IIRC the arcana says to treat Magus level as Swashbuckler level, and Arcane Pool as Panache Pool.

[deuxhero]

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

Dawnflower Dervish could always do this out of the box at level 10 with no resources invested (though he does it better with a good con and toughness).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A while ago I was thinking about how the Magus VMC could be used. Spellstrike is pretty cool, but on anyone besides an Eldritch Knight gish build, I don't really see much wide use. I guess bad touch clerics/other divine classes might want it, but I don't have the book yet, so I don't know if it can be used for divine classes.

[Psyren]

A while ago I was thinking about how the Magus VMC could be used. Spellstrike is pretty cool, but on anyone besides an Eldritch Knight gish build, I don't really see much wide use. I guess bad touch clerics/other divine classes might want it, but I don't have the book yet, so I don't know if it can be used for divine classes.

It can be used with any spell that is also a magus spell. So for instance, a druid could use it with Frigid Touch, because that spell is on both their lists.

Personally I'm more curious about the magus arcana you get. Could a Witch/VMC Magus select Spell Blending to get some wizard spells added to their list?

[Molosse]

It can be used with any spell that is also a magus spell. So for instance, a druid could use it with Frigid Touch, because that spell is on both their lists.

Personally I'm more curious about the magus arcana you get. Could a Witch/VMC Magus select Spell Blending to get some wizard spells added to their list?

Spell Blending:
When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell of its wizard spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast.

Magus Arcana VMC:
At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.

See the bolded part for any issues that may exist. It's damn silly but in essence it seems to be saying that you ONLY treat your character level as your Magus level when determining whether you can select an Arcana, not for your ability to utilize said Arcana. You can argue this is, as I've said, bloody silly, but there you go.

As an aside you could, for example, grab Broad Study as your Arcana to make a Divine Spellstriker.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So you could grab it while only expending feats, as opposed to six levels. A bit obfuscated, but makes sense.

[Molosse]

This is more fluff than anything else, but by grabbing the Sorcerer VMC you can build a good few concepts.

Want a Demon-Possessed Warrior? Grab a Fighter (Abyssal Sorcerer VMC).

Speaking of the Sorcerer Bloodlines then, does anyone have any favorites, concentrating on the first two bloodline powers as to get use of them at level 3 and 7, ergo before more than half the campaign disappears.

To start:

Serpentine: Grabs you a Bite attack that inflicts a scaling Poison at level 3 and grabs you a Viper familiar at level 7.

Imperious: Grabs you an additional five Class skills at level 3 and grabs you a bloody great ability in the form of Heroic Echos' which gives you, at level 7, a +1 to any morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item and two levels later that bonus includes competence bonuses'. Finally as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus, if you received it from an effect that affects either/or an area or multiple targets, you can share it with all other recipients of the effect. This effect lasts a time equal to your Cha bonus and you can use the immediate action once per day for every three levels. Damn good choice for a Bard/Sensei/Ecclesitheurge/Exemplar into a PF Chronicler.

[Psyren]

This is more fluff than anything else, but by grabbing the Sorcerer VMC you can build a good few concepts.

Want a Demon-Possessed Warrior? Grab a Fighter (Abyssal Sorcerer VMC).

Speaking of the Sorcerer Bloodlines then, does anyone have any favorites, concentrating on the first two bloodline powers as to get use of them at level 3 and 7, ergo before more than half the campaign disappears.

I gave a list of useful ones on the first page. Remember that for the VMC Sorcerer, you generally want this on builds with low Cha - otherwise you're likely better off taking Eldritch Heritage instead. And accordingly, you want bloodlines that don't care much about your Cha either, i.e. ones whose abilities have no saving throw.

[Molosse]

I gave a list of useful ones on the first page. Remember that for the VMC Sorcerer, you generally want this on builds with low Cha - otherwise you're likely better off taking Eldritch Heritage instead. And accordingly, you want bloodlines that don't care much about your Cha either, i.e. ones whose abilities have no saving throw.

Ninja'd before the edit :P

Also I'm not sure I agree E.Heritage is always better when you have more Cha.

With E.Heritage you:

I) Spend 5 feats to get all the BL powers but with the option to skip either the Level 3 or Level 9 BL power.
II) Require the aforementioned 13-17 Cha
III) Either gain access to the Level 3 BL slower, or gain access to the Level 9 BL faster, than the VMC equivalent.

With VMC you:

I) Spend 5 feats to get all the BL powers but gain one back at Level 11, dependent on your BL.
II) Scale the BL powers at Character Level as opposed to Character Level-2
III) May or May not gain the BL Arcana and BL Class Skill. No clue there, other than the fact that the VMC states: "At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers." while the Sorcerer BL power simply states: "A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed." with no real mention of the Sorcerer gaining either the Arcana nor the Class Skill.

[TiaC]

Reviving this thread to return to the Magus VMC. First, the arcane pool ability includes the weapon enhancement, so that's cool. Even on a caster, it makes a +1 Guardian gauntlet a great investment. Second, there are some amazing arcana out there for pretty much anyone. Unlike Oracle and Witch, the Magus VMC does not bar you from taking Extra Arcana.

I would actually say that Witch is one of the best options for this. Wand and Scroll Mastery are both great on a Int-based class, Spell Blending can grab something useful, and Concentrat can save your bacon when you need it.

On the other hand, if you want something more martial, there are all sorts of arcana that boost that or allow you to grab some feats without prerequisites.

Oh, and ki arcana is very nice in VMC.

[Molosse]

Reviving this thread to return to the Magus VMC. First, the arcane pool ability includes the weapon enhancement, so that's cool. Even on a caster, it makes a +1 Guardian gauntlet a great investment. Second, there are some amazing arcana out there for pretty much anyone. Unlike Oracle and Witch, the Magus VMC does not bar you from taking Extra Arcana.

I would actually say that Witch is one of the best options for this. Wand and Scroll Mastery are both great on a Int-based class, Spell Blending can grab something useful, and Concentrat can save your bacon when you need it.

On the other hand, if you want something more martial, there are all sorts of arcana that boost that or allow you to grab some feats without prerequisites.

Oh, and ki arcana is very nice in VMC.

By that same standard the UnBarbarian/Barbarian both make decent VMC's simply for the amount of Rage Powers/Stances you have access too, especially since you can take Extra Rage Power as, again, it isn't limited like both the Oracle/Witch.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think it would be nice on a rogue that has a decent amount of Intelligence. Not sure if you can use Spellstrike with SLAs unless you get a conductive weapon, but even then it would be a neat addition, especially with Bookish Rogue. The Arcane Pool can affect unarmed strikes with the Monk and Brawler classes, so its extra good for them if they can afford a little Int... though I want to see it on a Swashbuckler. Pity that SLAs can't qualify you for Arcane Strike anymore.

[Psyren]

II) Scale the BL powers at Character Level as opposed to Character Level-2

Actually GEH boosts all your powers to Character Level, including the ones you got before picking it up.

III) May or May not gain the BL Arcana and BL Class Skill. No clue there, other than the fact that the VMC states: "At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers." while the Sorcerer BL power simply states: "A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed." with no real mention of the Sorcerer gaining either the Arcana nor the Class Skill.

Neither option gets the arcana so this is a non-point. Only actual sorcerers and equivalent archetypes get it.

By that same standard the UnBarbarian/Barbarian both make decent VMC's simply for the amount of Rage Powers/Stances you have access too, especially since you can take Extra Rage Power as, again, it isn't limited like both the Oracle/Witch.

You cannot VMC Unbarbarian. Only the basic (Core/APG/UM/UC) versions of each class can be VMC'd.

[grarrrg]

Actually GEH boosts all your powers to Character Level, including the ones you got before picking it up.

But you can't get GEH until level 17, so for the vast majority of your career your EH powers will be slightly weaker.

And it factors into how you can stop taking EH feats whenever you want (and/or skip over the second taking of ImpEH). If you don't take the last one you still have the level penalty.

[Molosse]

(A)Actually GEH boosts all your powers to Character Level, including the ones you got before picking it up.
(B)Neither option gets the arcana so this is a non-point. Only actual sorcerers and equivalent archetypes get it.
(C)You cannot VMC Unbarbarian. Only the basic (Core/APG/UM/UC) versions of each class can be VMC'd.

In order:
A) GEH requires level 17, so I'd argue the VMC still holds the advantage there

B) To clarify:
The Sorcerer Bloodline Class Ability states: "Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities.... A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed."

The VMC states: "A character who selects this option doesn't gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class"

The Sorcerer VMC states: "Bloodline: At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers."

While Eldritch Heritage states: "Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline.... You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

Utilizing these four examples I would therefore say that the VMC grants class features, that the Sorcerer VMC grants the Bloodline class feature at level 1 and that the the Bloodline Class Feature grants the Sorcerer "An additional class skill, and other special abilities" while the Eldritch Heritage line simply states "You gain the first/third/ninth etc level bloodline power for the selected bloodline"

I would further support this argument by directing your attention to the Bard VMC which states "Bardic Performance" and then specifically limits the abilities of that class-feature in regard to the VMC.

Finally C)
I see nothing to say that you cannot utilize the Unchained Variants with VMC's. While we use the term Un-XYZ to differentiate the classes there's no such language within the book itself. So unless there's a glaring example of a Core VMC granting a class feature unavailable to the Unchained classes I can't see why they'd limit themselves in this way, especially when the theme of the book is taken into context.

[Psyren]

If VMC grants the arcana I'll concede that point, though this is almost certainly not intended.

As for the Unchained classes being ineligible for VMC, you missed this line:

The following secondary class features are based on features of the classes found in the Core Rulebook.

[Molosse]

If VMC grants the arcana I'll concede that point, though this is almost certainly not intended.

As for the Unchained classes being ineligible for VMC, you missed this line:

I wholeheartedly apologize and concede the point.

[Molosse]

A quick aside, does the Cleric VMC let you take an Inquisition? Going from the Ultimate Magic note that "Inquisitions are like domains. Other classes that use domains can take inquisitions but inquisitions are typically weaker than the domains those classes can already choose because they don’t grant domain spell slots or domain spells."

I'm very doubtful but one can hope.

[Shadowscale]

I'm on the class kick for it currently in pathfindee using pathfinder could one build something similar in flavor and abilities to the dragon shaman, perhaps using the I'll named Druid barely and some type of psychic multi class or something out pf the occult book, I'm stumped to think of any currently though.

[Molosse]

I'm on the class kick for it currently in pathfindee using pathfinder could one build something similar in flavor and abilities to the dragon shaman, perhaps using the I'll named Druid barely and some type of psychic multi class or something out pf the occult book, I'm stumped to think of any currently though.

Ask your DM whether he'd consider allowing a Draconic Bloodrager to gain the stacking unto Bloodline abilities from the Dragon Disciple PrC?

If not, and honestly even if so, check out this guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hl=en_US&pli=1

Beyond that taking the Draconic Sorcerer VMC and 5 levels of Bloodrager could be a good option, or perhaps simply taking the Dragon Shaman Druid Archetype?

[Shadowscale]

Ask your DM whether he'd consider allowing a Draconic Bloodrager to gain the stacking unto Bloodline abilities from the Dragon Disciple PrC?

If not, and honestly even if so, check out this guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hl=en_US&pli=1

Beyond that taking the Draconic Sorcerer VMC and 5 levels of Bloodrager could be a good option?

I think a draconian bloodline bloodrager going into dragon disciple would work, not sure if it's legal though.

[Molosse]

I think a draconian bloodline bloodrager going into dragon disciple would work, not sure if it's legal though.

I mean. It's absolutely legal to enter the PrC, but when you get there your Draconic Bloodrager Bloodline will no longer grow and instead you'll gain the Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline.

But again, ask your DM if you can Bloodrager into Dragon Disciple for a more Martial D.Disciple or Sorcerer into Dragon Disciple for a more Arcane D.Disciple.

[Beowulf DW]

Could a Feral Hunter with Monk VMC work for a Fist of the Forest Build? Probably not, as it's rather feat intensive. You need Weapon Focus, and Feral Combat Training to make it work, and Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity to make it work well.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Is that a build best left to regular multiclassing?