Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D IV: Oh, the Inhumanity!

[3SecondCultist]

Welcome to the fourth Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thread! Come on in, go grab your favorite 0-8-4* and make yourself comfortable. There's lots of room for everyone, so save some space in the forum thread for new viewers and hardcore AoS fans alike. Please use spoiler tags liberally.

* This thread is not responsible for any accidental vaporizations, sudden crystallizations, or uncontrollable rages. Please consult S.H.I.E.L.D. records accordingly.

Past threads:
Agents of SHIELD
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. II: It's A Magical Thread
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. III: Cut off One Thread, Two More Shall Take its Place

Heading into the Season 2 finale, we have the reforged paranormal security agency with plucky operatives and containment protocols in one corner, and the mysterious community of humans with alien DNA and powers in the other. Place your bets, people!

[Metahuman1]

Response form last thread.


Yes, that's exactly where there going with it. And I'll be honest, I expect it to go horribly wrong. Quesada got promoted and is gonna be in charge of all adaptations of marvel property's from comics and into other media, and he thinks the hot mess i described was perfect and resents people for not liking it and dumping marvel books over it. (Incidentally that was about half marvel comics readership.) And Joss Wheadon, the only guy I think really had enough pull to tell him point blank "That's nice, you keep thinking that, but it's not going in this movie. Because I said so, now, go cry in a corner an let the adults work." isn't there anymore.

So, yeah, if we make it through Civil War with out this having happened, it's gonna be nothing short of a miracle.

[dehro]

Still.. These films have been in the making for a decade and I expect there's a broadly outlined plot that has been agreed upon well before this Quesada fellow took over. I doubt anybody could have the kind of pull it takes to derail such major productions from the course they've been set on without a lot of management interference and creative differences coming to light and pooping all over the Internet

[Metahuman1]

And yet Quesada may be the single most talented person in the last century when it comes to screwing up a good thing for his own selfish desires.

[3SecondCultist]

And yet Quesada may be the single most talented person in the last century when it comes to screwing up a good thing for his own selfish desires.

This. So much, this. Quesada isn't just responsible for Civil War, but is responsible for an even worse storyline - perhaps one of the single most contested issues regarding Spider Man ever printed. What's worse, everything Quesada did to Spidey in One More Day were all things he explicitly promised wouldn't happen to the character after he events of the former storyline.

I do not trust Quesada with Marvel properties anymore. And I really hope they limit his involvement in the MCU creative process - gods forbid he becomes an executive producer or something.

[huttj509]

It's a different Civil War! We've had summaries and synopses!

It's not about list/no-list. Honestly, it's more similar to Coulson/Committee SHIELD divisions, the idea of should the Avengers operate with governmental oversight or not!

And hey, there's a division that I could see "I'm a soldier" Captain America and "don't talk to me about Things Man Was Not Meant to Know" Stark on opposite sides of.

"You built Ultron!"
"Hey, I fixed it, right Vis? Anyway, it's not like I decided to nuke Manhattan. Great decision from the council there, let's see, who cleaned up that mess? Chain of command blah blah blah. I'm not a soldier Steve, never was, never will be."
"You need to be accountable to somebody."
"How about the stockholders. Maybe I should go publicly traded, Avengers IPO might be hot right now, though PR might have a migraine. Did I mention I got a PR department? They're doing a great job with the rebuilding in Africa, Iron Man brand dust masks. I wanted some in green but they thought that might hit a bit close to home."


Man, Stark is a lot more fun to make up dialogue for than Rogers. And I LIKE Captain America.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Man, Stark is a lot more fun to make up dialogue for than Rogers. And I LIKE Captain America.

Of course he is. Stark understands that if he didn't laugh at life, he'd had attempted suicide by now. Humour is his coping mechanism. Rogers doesn't seem to have a need for humour, so he is a very serious character that barely works even as the straight man - that's why he needs either a Bucky, or a howling commando, or a Black Widow to put some life into his films. (Thor has similar issues, except he is at least a fun fish-out-of-water alien, and of course has Loki).

Thankfully, Both Rogers and Thor bring other characteristics to the table that make them enjoyable - but humour ain't it.

Grey Wolf

[LaZodiac]

It doesn't matter what Quesada did or didn't do because his job is the same as Stan Lee's, title wise. He's doing nothing.

[3SecondCultist]

It's a different Civil War! We've had summaries and synopses!

It's not about list/no-list. Honestly, it's more similar to Coulson/Committee SHIELD divisions, the idea of should the Avengers operate with governmental oversight or not!

I know. I've been filling in some of the TVTropes page for Civil War myself with synopses. It's more a bad gut reflex to see Quesada's name anywhere near the MCU that I've grown to love.

It doesn't matter what Quesada did or didn't do because his job is the same as Stan Lee's, title wise. He's doing nothing.

I'm well aware of Quesada's current position at Marvel, again it was more of a bad memory of reading Civil War and basically going straight to One More Day. I almost completely gave up on Marvel after that.

But that's all movie stuff! I'm super excited for the two hour finale on Tuesday! I actually have a couple of predictions that will hopefully come true (and I share your wishful thinking that Ward is turned into fine red mist, Zodiac).

[Olinser]

It's a different Civil War! We've had summaries and synopses!

It's not about list/no-list. Honestly, it's more similar to Coulson/Committee SHIELD divisions, the idea of should the Avengers operate with governmental oversight or not!

And hey, there's a division that I could see "I'm a soldier" Captain America and "don't talk to me about Things Man Was Not Meant to Know" Stark on opposite sides of.

"You built Ultron!"
"Hey, I fixed it, right Vis? Anyway, it's not like I decided to nuke Manhattan. Great decision from the council there, let's see, who cleaned up that mess? Chain of command blah blah blah. I'm not a soldier Steve, never was, never will be."
"You need to be accountable to somebody."
"How about the stockholders. Maybe I should go publicly traded, Avengers IPO might be hot right now, though PR might have a migraine. Did I mention I got a PR department? They're doing a great job with the rebuilding in Africa, Iron Man brand dust masks. I wanted some in green but they thought that might hit a bit close to home."


Man, Stark is a lot more fun to make up dialogue for than Rogers. And I LIKE Captain America.

Loki as Captain America was one of the best scenes ever.

As long as they stick with 'oversight over the Avengers', I'm perfectly fine with it. The problem is that in the comic books they went to, "Forced conscription of anybody with mildly useful powers and everybody else gets thrown in prison with no possibility of release".

[Helanna]

I am both excited and a little scared for the finale! I'm assuming it's going to end on some horrible cliffhanger - the activation of a weapon or a tense standoff maybe - or an official declaration of war, which could have interesting consequences for the rest of the MCU.

On another note I had an AoS-related dream last night, in which Ward regained the trust of the team and they were all hanging out as friends/teammates again. Until Simmons shot him in the head. So that might speak to what I'm hoping for in the finale.

(Actually I love to hate Ward, I hope he sticks around because I really like him as a villain. I *still* can't believe how thoroughly I was fooled in the beginning of season 1.)

[Reddish Mage]

I am both excited and a little scared for the finale! I'm assuming it's going to end on some horrible cliffhanger - the activation of a weapon or a tense standoff maybe - or an official declaration of war, which could have interesting consequences for the rest of the MCU.

On another note I had an AoS-related dream last night, in which Ward regained the trust of the team and they were all hanging out as friends/teammates again. Until Simmons shot him in the head. So that might speak to what I'm hoping for in the finale.

(Actually I love to hate Ward, I hope he sticks around because I really like him as a villain. I *still* can't believe how thoroughly I was fooled in the beginning of season 1.)

Speaking of which, when did the actors know that Ward was going to go villain. When I looked back at some early scenes there seems to be no hint of his future, no nod that this guy is, deep down, a diabolical lapdog incapable of thinking for himself.

[Olinser]

I am both excited and a little scared for the finale! I'm assuming it's going to end on some horrible cliffhanger - the activation of a weapon or a tense standoff maybe - or an official declaration of war, which could have interesting consequences for the rest of the MCU.

On another note I had an AoS-related dream last night, in which Ward regained the trust of the team and they were all hanging out as friends/teammates again. Until Simmons shot him in the head. So that might speak to what I'm hoping for in the finale.

(Actually I love to hate Ward, I hope he sticks around because I really like him as a villain. I *still* can't believe how thoroughly I was fooled in the beginning of season 1.)

Right now I'm pretty much operating on the assumption that the water-rock... thingy on the Iliad is going to feature heavily in the next two episodes and presumed cliffhanger.

My guess is the next episode we'll find out what it really is and does when Jiaying tells Gordon it's too dangerous to leave in SHIELD hands and they assault the Iliad to get it back.

[3SecondCultist]

Speaking of which, when did the actors know that Ward was going to go villain. When I looked back at some early scenes there seems to be no hint of his future, no nod that this guy is, deep down, a diabolical lapdog incapable of thinking for himself.

I don't know about the rest of the cast, but Brett Dalton found out while filming "Yes Man" (Season 1 Ep. 15), two episodes before "Turn, Turn, Turn". I can't imagine the execs at Marvel telling the rest of the cast before they told him. So that means for the first 15 episodes of the show, Dalton played Ward as a straight laced guy as genuinely as he could, in order to make the eventual twist that much more out of left field.

The interview transcript is here, if you're interested in reading it. There's also a good one for Bill Paxton (who knew he was Hydra when he got cast).

[Carl]

You don't get to decide that for everybody.

What???

I'm not deciding anything.

I'm telling you your position is factually and provably wrong. Your whole argument is that you can claim the system is unacceptably vulnerable. But claiming that about a system as well protected as a national security system or various legal systems simply doesn't make sense unless your willing to go out and say we shouldn't recod any information of that sensitivity because it might be compromised and hurt someone. And that's just not a position that stands up to basic reason, common sense, logic, or sanity checks.

Unless you have an actual counter argument all the sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make you any less factually wrong.

Frankly, I think forcibly putting responsible adults on the level of those incapable of caring for themselves is demeaning.

The vast majority of powered people are again self evidently, (often as much due to psychology and training and lack of resources more than actual power given how many abilities can at least theoretically be used for defence), incapable of protecting themselves against organisation with paramilitary capabilities they are in a specific sense incapable of looking after themselves in regards to a specific aspect of the life of a powered person.

And incapable of looking after themselves in some way is the specific criteria for being a vulnerable individual on these lists.

Incidentally however minor my condition i'm classed as disabled myself. So i'm looking at this from the inside out here.


@Dehro: I think you have me ass backwards here. Your whole point is why i'm arguing the Index needs to exist. It's provably the case that not only are powered people vulnerable to exploitation and abuse by vastly more powerful people who actually exist and have a reason to engage in such.

Doublecheck your correction. SHIELD was intended as an inherently defensive organization. "someone really wanted the acronym to spell shield." The Index was originally intended to make life easier for shield, by triaging powers into possible threats and not.

Go re-watch season one again. repairs and the girl in the flower dress specifically. Though several other episodes provide countless little bits and pieces.

Coulson flat out states the welcome wagon is there to evaluate potential threats in repairs yes. But per various comments in that episode and per their reaction to Scorch's disappearance a few episodes earlier. Potential threats doesn't just mean the threat represented by the powered individual, it represents the threats to the individual as well. And just like we see with 084's we see SHIELD taking responsibility for them beyond the simple threat level. hey're not working alongside the normal authorities. they're completely substituting for them.

And that's what i'm trying to pick up and ram home for you all here. Your treating, (as per the comment i corrected), as if SHIELD's sole mandate is to protect the world from powered people. It isn't their interest in powered people is two way. their mandate isn't just defence against powered people but managing them in general.

[Olinser]

What???

I'm not deciding anything.

I'm telling you your position is factually and provably wrong. Your whole argument is that you can claim the system is unacceptably vulnerable. But claiming that about a system as well protected as a national security system or various legal systems simply doesn't make sense unless your willing to go out and say we shouldn't recod any information of that sensitivity because it might be compromised and hurt someone. And that's just not a position that stands up to basic reason, common sense, logic, or sanity checks.

Unless you have an actual counter argument all the sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make you any less factually wrong.






The vast majority of powered people are again self evidently, (often as much due to psychology and training and lack of resources more than actual power given how many abilities can at least theoretically be used for defence), incapable of protecting themselves against organisation with paramilitary capabilities they are in a specific sense incapable of looking after themselves in regards to a specific aspect of the life of a powered person.

And incapable of looking after themselves in some way is the specific criteria for being a vulnerable individual on these lists.

Incidentally however minor my condition i'm classed as disabled myself. So i'm looking at this from the inside out here.


@Dehro: I think you have me ass backwards here. Your whole point is why i'm arguing the Index needs to exist. It's provably the case that not only are powered people vulnerable to exploitation and abuse by vastly more powerful people who actually exist and have a reason to engage in such.




Go re-watch season one again. repairs and the girl in the flower dress specifically. Though several other episodes provide countless little bits and pieces.

Coulson flat out states the welcome wagon is there to evaluate potential threats in repairs yes. But per various comments in that episode and per their reaction to Scorch's disappearance a few episodes earlier. Potential threats doesn't just mean the threat represented by the powered individual, it represents the threats to the individual as well. And just like we see with 084's we see SHIELD taking responsibility for them beyond the simple threat level. hey're not working alongside the normal authorities. they're completely substituting for them.

And that's what i'm trying to pick up and ram home for you all here. Your treating, (as per the comment i corrected), as if SHIELD's sole mandate is to protect the world from powered people. It isn't their interest in powered people is two way. their mandate isn't just defence against powered people but managing them in general.

You've proven nothing to anybody, YOUR OPINION of what is acceptable risk is not automatically the only definition acceptable, and quite frankly your condescending attitude is hurting your position. You have no facts to back up anything. All you have is your opinion.

The Inhumans don't need or want to 'be managed'. They have been around for thousands of years without anybody knowing they even existed. They have absolutely no interest in interfering, or even interacting at all, with the outside world. The only Inhuman who has ever been seen posing any threat to normal people was explicitly in violation of Inhuman law when she stole the crystals, and Jiaying and Gordon tracked her down pretty quickly. If May hadn't killed both of them the clear implication was that they were going to haul her back to Afterlife and either imprison or execute her.

As far as they are concerned, there is absolutely zero benefit to being on SHIELD's Index, and a whole lot of risk from an organization with a proven track record of allowing people on it to be exploited by various nefarious organizations. They do a perfectly fine job of policing their own, they don't need or want SHIELD's interference. I could see them agreeing to a compromise where IF one of their own became a threat to humans, they would inform SHIELD of their powers and how to stop them, but only IF they were a threat. Putting every single person on the Index is simply never going to happen - and quite frankly Gonzales was acting like he KNEW it was never going to happen and was just looking for an excuse to start throwing them in prison. Coulson would probably have been reasonable and talked it out with Jiaying. Gonzales delivered an ultimatum he knew damn well was never going to be accepted.

And your strawman about 'OMG I GUESS WE SHOULDN'T STORE ANYTHING, EVER', is just laughable. Various types of sensitive information have more security associated with them, precisely because even a low risk of their compromise warrants it. And yes, in the case of some particularly sensitive pieces of information, they are not, and never will, be stored on a server that can be potentially hacked.

Do we store nuclear launch codes on servers that can be hacked? Of course not. Because any risk of compromise, no matter how small, is completely and totally unacceptable.

Despite what Hollywood would have you believe in countless spy movies, we likewise do not have a single consolidated list of all undercover agents. Because again, any amount of risk is too much for things of that sensitivity. So things are compartmentalized into many small pieces, or stored in places that have no outside internet access.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And yet Quesada may be the single most talented person in the last century when it comes to screwing up a good thing for his own selfish desires.

Yeah. I quit reading comics over a decade ago, and I'm quite familiar with his Lewis-level failure magnet ways.

[dehro]

The Inhumans don't need or want to 'be managed'. They have been around for thousands of years without anybody knowing they even existed. They have absolutely no interest in interfering, or even interacting at all, with the outside world. The only Inhuman who has ever been seen posing any threat to normal people was explicitly in violation of Inhuman law when she stole the crystals, and Jiaying and Gordon tracked her down pretty quickly. If May hadn't killed both of them the clear implication was that they were going to haul her back to Afterlife and either imprison or execute her.

As far as they are concerned, there is absolutely zero benefit to being on SHIELD's Index.

It's not just the Inhumans needing or not needing to be managed. It's their existence in a world that is becoming more and more aware of them that needs to be managed, and not just on their end. They have survived for millennia without interference, true, but that simply is not the case anymore. There are bad people out there who are more than a match for their powers and who have a keen interest in getting their claws on them. Interaction is, at this point, inevitable. As for whether they need regulating from the outside, that is a simple matter of realpolitik. Yes, they can say we're good guys and will handle any bad apple internally... But why should they be trusted by people who don't quite know them and don't have reason to believe them to be able to either police themselves (remember Bahrain) or defend themselves (remember that Gordon being tracked and Afterlife being exposed is only the first step towards a ton of crafty baddies landing on your dodoorstep). For all intent and purposes, Afterlife could be equated to a rogue-ish nation armed with nuclear devices. A nation that has no allegiance, has signed no international treaty, made no promise to abide by any law, local or international. For that matter, where is Afterlife and whose tax officials are being cheated out of their legal revenue? Their existence is a fact that produces diplomatic and bureaucratic consequences and the people who are not them are going to want to know more about them to make sure they're indeed not a menace. Taking their word for it just doesn't work. Afterlife needs to come to terms with the outside world now that the bubble has burst and HYDRA has proven itself to be a real menace they don't have the means to defend against.
In such a picture, making a deal with the only organisation that is already devoted to keeping them secret and protecting them from such people as HYDRA, seems the lesser of the evils out there. Ultimately it comes down to accountability... Who are accountable if something goes wrong like in Bahrain? Who is going to pay for the civilians Cal had his minions kill in pursuing Coulson? As for the index.. That could've been discussed, made a subject of bargains and compromise. A joined way of policing things could have been suggested. All of these options were killed stone dead by the Zabos.

[Olinser]

It's not just the Inhumans needing or not needing to be managed. It's their existence in a world that is becoming more and more aware of them that needs to be managed, and not just on their end. They have survived for millennia without interference, true, but that simply is not the case anymore. There are bad people out there who are more than a match for their powers and who have a keen interest in getting their claws on them. Interaction is, at this point, inevitable. As for whether they need regulating from the outside, that is a simple matter of realpolitik. Yes, they can say we're good guys and will handle any bad apple internally... But why should they be trusted by people who don't quite know them and don't have reason to believe them to be able to either police themselves (remember Bahrain) or defend themselves (remember that Gordon being tracked and Afterlife being exposed is only the first step towards a ton of crafty baddies landing on your dodoorstep). For all intent and purposes, Afterlife could be equated to a rogue-ish nation armed with nuclear devices. A nation that has no allegiance, has signed no international treaty, made no promise to abide by any law, local or international. For that matter, where is Afterlife and whose tax officials are being cheated out of their legal revenue? Their existence is a fact that produces diplomatic and bureaucratic consequences and the people who are not them are going to want to know more about them to make sure they're indeed not a menace. Taking their word for it just doesn't work. Afterlife needs to come to terms with the outside world now that the bubble has burst and HYDRA has proven itself to be a real menace they don't have the means to defend against.
In such a picture, making a deal with the only organisation that is already devoted to keeping them secret and protecting them from such people as HYDRA, seems the lesser of the evils out there. Ultimately it comes down to accountability... Who are accountable if something goes wrong like in Bahrain? Who is going to pay for the civilians Cal had his minions kill in pursuing Coulson? As for the index.. That could've been discussed, made a subject of bargains and compromise. A joined way of policing things could have been suggested. All of these options were killed stone dead by the Zabos.

Cal is explicitly NOT an Inhuman, and they accept no responsibility for his actions.

And as I said, I think Coulson would have been reasonable and come to some sort of arrangement with the Inhumans. Straight up going on the Index was never going to be agreed to, but they might have come to some sort of an agreement with regards to people explicitly violating the law. Gonzales delivered an ultimatum that he KNEW they weren't going to accept so he had a reason to lock them all up. Outright killing Gonzales threw me off, I expected her to laugh in his face, throw him out, and demand Coulson come back to negotiate in good faith, but I think the discovery of the water-rock thing is what triggered her actions, it clearly has some major part to play.

[Metahuman1]

3SecondCultist: He's also responsible for OMD's sequel, Brand New Day, for Sin's Past (It basically did to Gwen Stacy post mortum what OMD did to Mary Jane.), and I'm pretty sure he can be thanked for M-day and all the Scarlet Witch related BS as well as for not stopping Avengers Arena and Undercover form happening, or for not stopping X-men vs. Avengers which was being written before he'd been promoted. Oh, and for making sure in the first Issue of Captain America with Sam Wilson as Cap he made it a point to call everyone who doesn't follow Joe Quesada's Politics in lock step an angry out of touch old racist. And One More Day were he declared that everyone who watches movies/tv/reads books/reads comics/plays video games that arn't 100% none fiction is 100% a looser by virtue of that behavior, period, through the mouth of an alt universe Peter Parker who didn't get the spider bite.

The man has no buisness having ANY job at Marvel anymore, let alone being in charge of all adaptations of marvel property's from comics and into other media. Which is exactly what his current job is and exactly what it says on the tin.

Lazodiac: See the above.

huttj509: Is Tony Stark Still fighting Captain America? Is one gonna be in favor of the Government's BS and the other against it? If the answer to both questions is yes, it's already entirely too close to the source material for it's own good, or for the good of the MCU post Civil War.

Also, again, Quesada has a seat at the table right now. There is NO way it's gonna stop at just registration. More so since he just got Spiderman and Norman Osborn back as toys to play with on the big screen!

Carl: Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!

Seriously, your arguments have already been shredded, but here's some other stuff your evidently failing to take into account. 1: The government (Shield in this case.) Indexes them. What precisely stops Loki or Lorilai or Purple Man or any other given telepath or shape-shifter or master illusionist form tricking or just taking the info, or taking control of/impersonating someone in authority over that info, and then using this convenient Info in a threat to them/there enemy's to force ably conscript all the supers into working for them directly? Or just wiping them and/or everyone they care about off the map?

That's right, Not a freaking thing, that's what!

Were as if you don't have anything other then "They exist" for the majority of supers, then now there's a contingency for that sort of thing. Namely, yeah, they could in theory still get it, but it would be a WAY more involved process for them which gives you more time to react and them more time to screw up and blow cover.

And that's not even getting into the fact that, again, every time Marvel has gone down this road, Registering has been a BAD thing. A VERY VERY BAD thing. There's no reason at all to think this is different. Particularly not with Joss Wheadon no longer calling the shots and Joe Quesada getting a seat at the table.



Olinser: Dead on and I agree with you on all points.

Rogar Demonblud: I stopped reading Marvel at the time, started reading DC. And as bad as DC's gotten, there STILL not Civil War and One More Day and the other listed events bad.

dehro: Except that they don't have any reason what so ever to trust an organization that until a couple of days ago were hunting them, and can't even keep to pre agreed upon terms in so far as who goes in to talk.

Besides, form there stand point, if Hydra comes form them, they can take them. Also I'm still betting on them reveling that Black Bolt and a ton of other powered Inhumans are up on the Moon on a base with Kree Tech and that the season ends with them releasing the inhuman Wave over earth. Cause, you know, 5% of the population suddenly having powers and the overwhelming majority of THEM not having had no say in weather or not that happened would actually look like a good fix to his way of thinking.

And he's not far off. Numbers + power let's them crush Hydra and if needed, Shield, and then as for registering, it throws a lot more lack of firmness on the moral high ground of those calling for it. Along with a lot less ability to actually make it work if they tried.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=Metahuman1;1923710

Carl: Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!

Seriously, your arguments have already been shredded, but here's some other stuff your evidently failing to take into account. 1: The government (Shield in this case.) Indexes them. What precisely stops Loki or Lorilai or Purple Man or any other given telepath or shape-shifter or master illusionist form tricking or just taking the info, or taking control of/impersonating someone in authority over that info, and then using this convenient Info in a threat to them/there enemy's to force ably conscript all the supers into working for them directly? Or just wiping them and/or everyone they care about off the map?

That's right, Not a freaking thing, that's what!

[/QUOTE]

Apart from the security measures any vaguely competent security organization puts in places. They haven't been shown because quite frankly that would be incredibly boring television Interestingly enough the S.H.I.E.L.D. by committee helps by that as group decisions mean one person being turned doesn't mean control over anything
Whereas the Inhumans with a single leader are infinetley more susceptible to this kind of manipulation.

Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!

Shhshhh ! You're not meant to say that in public anymore. Didn't you get Strucker's memo

[Olinser]

Apart from the security measures any vaguely competent security organization puts in places. They haven't been shown because quite frankly that would be incredibly boring television Interestingly enough the S.H.I.E.L.D. by committee helps by that as group decisions mean one person being turned doesn't mean control over anything
Whereas the Inhumans with a single leader are infinetley more susceptible to this kind of manipulation.


Shhshhh ! You're not meant to say that in public anymore. Didn't you get Strucker's memo

DO the Inhumans have a single leader? 'The Elders' has been referenced a few times by Gordon and Lincoln, (I seem to recall Gordon telling Cal he had to go consult with the elders, before Jiaying showed up). I was kind of under the impression that the Inhumans as a group were led by a council of Elders that made major decisions, and that Jiaying was just a senior member/spokesman for the council who handled smaller matters by herself. I kind of got the impression Gordon may have been a junior member of the council as well.

I was kind of anticipating that a Council was going to show up at some point - probably Black Bolt and Medusa, at a minimum.

[3SecondCultist]

Apart from the security measures any vaguely competent security organization puts in places. They haven't been shown because quite frankly that would be incredibly boring television. Interestingly enough the S.H.I.E.L.D. by committee helps by that as group decisions mean one person being turned doesn't mean control over anything.

Whereas the Inhumans with a single leader are infinitely more susceptible to this kind of manipulation.

Very much this. I don't necessarily agree with all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s practices, but I do like the idea of them forming a committee of leaders instead of having one director. Fury's - and later Coulson's - style of keeping all of his closest advisors in the dark has the unfortunate tendency of backfiring on him. In theory, the 'council' structure works. It's made obvious in both the films and the shows that the World Security Council's 'oversight' was laughable at best, and dangerous at worst, as it allowed Pierce and Hydra to more easily worm their way in. With a new council, formed up of loyal and experienced agents who all fought against internal corruption, things should be better. Of course, we've already seen why it doesn't always work. That's why I like this show, in a nutshell: it doesn't give any easy answers to these questions.

And I get the sense that the 'Elders' of Afterlife won't matter much when Jiaying starts her war.

Shhshhh ! You're not meant to say that in public anymore. Didn't you get Strucker's memo

I thought Strucker's memo was 'Peace'?

[Flickerdart]

Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!

Posting mostly so I have a marker for the new thread, but nitpick: Hydra is a Nazi organization, calling Hydra members "comrade" is going to get you shot.

[3SecondCultist]

Posting mostly so I have a marker for the new thread, but nitpick: Hydra is a Nazi organization, calling Hydra members "comrade" is going to get you shot.

More nitpicking! While correct about not using 'comrade', I'd say Hydra is long past being a Nazi organization. We see them turn on the Third Reich in the first Cap movie, with Red Skull listing Berlin as one of his targets in his super-jet. While certainly starting off as a Nazi offshoot, they've evolved way beyond that ideology by the modern day.

I wonder if we're going to see more Hydra in Season 3.

[LaZodiac]

More nitpicking! While correct about not using 'comrade', I'd say Hydra is long past being a Nazi organization. We see them turn on the Third Reich in the first Cap movie, with Red Skull listing Berlin as one of his targets in his super-jet. While certainly starting off as a Nazi offshoot, they've evolved way beyond that ideology by the modern day.

I wonder if we're going to see more Hydra in Season 3.

On the one hand, Struker's dead and as far as we know he's the last one.

But then we also know Crossbones or whatever, the Hydra agent from Cap 2, is going to be in Cap 3. So there are likely still remnants hiding in the shadows. Of course there's always the chance that since The Kraken was just shot and not torn to pieces, he'll revive much like Jiayang did when she was put back together.

And of course you know what they say about Hydra and their heads. A theory my Dad had (jokingly) is that Ward will revive it.

[comicshorse]

On the one hand, Struker's dead and as far as we know he's the last one.

But then we also know Crossbones or whatever, the Hydra agent from Cap 2, is going to be in Cap 3. So there are likely still remnants hiding in the shadows. Of course there's always the chance that since The Kraken was just shot and not torn to pieces, he'll revive much like Jiayang did when she was put back together.

And of course you know what they say about Hydra and their heads. A theory my Dad had (jokingly) is that Ward will revive it.

Strucker's scientific advisor (Doctor List ?) is still around

Yes it is Doctor List

[Carl]

And your strawman about 'OMG I GUESS WE SHOULDN'T STORE ANYTHING, EVER', is just laughable. Various types of sensitive information have more security associated with them, precisely because even a low risk of their compromise warrants it. And yes, in the case of some particularly sensitive pieces of information, they are not, and never will, be stored on a server that can be potentially hacked.

Do we store nuclear launch codes on servers that can be hacked? Of course not. Because any risk of compromise, no matter how small, is completely and totally unacceptable.

Despite what Hollywood would have you believe in countless spy movies, we likewise do not have a single consolidated list of all undercover agents. Because again, any amount of risk is too much for things of that sensitivity. So things are compartmentalized into many small pieces, or stored in places that have no outside internet access.

Now this is an actual counter argument.

Go around restating your position constantly without addressing my point and i'm going to be derisive. It's just going "i'm right because i say i'm right regardless of arguments to the contrary". You go around doing that and i will dismiss it if, big, big, big if i've laid out and argument that i don't feel can be disagreed upon purely on principles. Which is what the whole point of my comparison IS. It's an impossible to disagree with, (within the limits of logic, reason, sanity, and common sense), position on purely principles grounds. If you want to prove me wrong you've got to actually attack the comparison in some fashion. And that's why i've been derisive upto press. The counterarguments have been "i say i'm right i don't have to address your argument".


Now as to your actual argument.

None of those are examples of data that is dangerous in some fashion to a specific section of the general public. That's why i poked at terrorist watch lists or witness protection data. Both of which to the best of my knowledge, ( i won't claim perfection here, no one outside the specific services is for very good reasons), are totally hackable. For that matter despite being far less well secured, (though probably less heavily targeted, or at least with less of a reason to target them), data on vulnerable disabled individuals and sex offenders would also apply. And the latter, has been leaked in the UK for example, (i can link you to some stories i think would have to dig through another forums thread for the specific info came up there), so it's probably possible to compromise. Though like i said it isn't quite as secure, so it's a less perfect example. And i'm sure with some work other equivalent types of data can be thought of, (those are just the ones that pop into my head without research), that would be just as secure and just as potentially hackable.

The Inhumans don't need or want to 'be managed'. They have been around for thousands of years without anybody knowing they even existed. They have absolutely no interest in interfering, or even interacting at all, with the outside world. The only Inhuman who has ever been seen posing any threat to normal people was explicitly in violation of Inhuman law when she stole the crystals, and Jiaying and Gordon tracked her down pretty quickly. If May hadn't killed both of them the clear implication was that they were going to haul her back to Afterlife and either imprison or execute her.

I allready pointed out how the Inhumans are effectively running their own version of the index and that Jaiyang would have a valid point if she'd used that. I never attacked the idea that the Inhumans might deserve and exception, (subject to some monitoring for favoritism). I counterattacked the attack on the idea of the index as a whole.

1: The government (Shield in this case.) Indexes them. What precisely stops Loki or Lorilai or Purple Man or any other given telepath or shape-shifter or master illusionist form tricking or just taking the info, or taking control of/impersonating someone in authority over that info, and then using this convenient Info in a threat to them/there enemy's to force ably conscript all the supers into working for them directly? Or just wiping them and/or everyone they care about off the map?

That's right, Not a freaking thing, that's what!

Were as if you don't have anything other then "They exist" for the majority of supers, then now there's a contingency for that sort of thing. Namely, yeah, they could in theory still get it, but it would be a WAY more involved process for them which gives you more time to react and them more time to screw up and blow cover.

Again a decent counter argument. And the first one i feel actually holds some merit even if i feels it's still pretty hard disagreeable with within the constraints of logic and common sense, (though i agree there's just enough wiggle room to not make it 100%). I still disagree with it. But finally an actual argument that holds water for me :). I like to be challenged like this. but i don;t hold much truck with sticking fingers in ears.

The problem with it is this:

Yes various individuals can bypass any security. But those are the specific individuals that A) the index is supposed to stop from becoming threats in the first place. B) the threat they represent has to be balanced against the threat represented byy the alternative. If you don't have an index then that means every superpowered individual is suddenly left to deal with their powers on their own and if any other form of threat, (which is going to be vastly more common), tris to take advantage of them you''ll never know because when they disappear they'll just be another missing normal. Until the bad guys operation gets busted or they start using what they've acquired to do major badness no one will know. Which is the bigger threat?

I tend to come down on the side that such individuals are rare enough on the whole and the mandate to deal with these kinds of people as well tends to offset the dangers.

The other major point i'd make is that at that point all classified data anywhere upto and including nuclear launch codes becomes vulnerable, how far can you really go with not giving them things to go after before it becomes completely silly and counterproductive? Someone with that ability because unstoppable sort of meeting someone they can't control. Illusionists, Shape Changers and Mind Benders are realistically physical goods if they pre-plan enough, which raises the question of if anyone not able to stop them should even worry about them. Nothing you do is going to stop them without crippling yourself to an unacceptable degree vs everyone else.

Like i said i agree there's just enough wiggle room in there for a valid argument, but i hold that it's a very very, very weak one.

[Olinser]

Very much this. I don't necessarily agree with all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s practices, but I do like the idea of them forming a committee of leaders instead of having one director. Fury's - and later Coulson's - style of keeping all of his closest advisors in the dark has the unfortunate tendency of backfiring on him. In theory, the 'council' structure works. It's made obvious in both the films and the shows that the World Security Council's 'oversight' was laughable at best, and dangerous at worst, as it allowed Pierce and Hydra to more easily worm their way in. With a new council, formed up of loyal and experienced agents who all fought against internal corruption, things should be better. Of course, we've already seen why it doesn't always work. That's why I like this show, in a nutshell: it doesn't give any easy answers to these questions.

And I get the sense that the 'Elders' of Afterlife won't matter much when Jiaying starts her war.



I thought Strucker's memo was 'Peace'?

Kind of how I see this playing out in my head is that Jiaying is going rogue with her war. The next 2 episodes are going to see non-stop conflict with SHIELD over the water-rock thing in the cargo hold, and that at the end either Jiaying is going to be dead or Gordon is going to remove her.

Then at the end of the season for the cliffhanger is the appearance of the Elders, and possibly some kind of countdown with regards to the water-rock.

[LaZodiac]

Strucker's scientific advisor (Doctor List ?) is still around

Yes it is Doctor List

They got List while saving Lincoln and Deathlock.