OOTS #984 - The Discussion Thread

[Psyren]

During their fatal conflict, Durkon told Malack that he could resurrect him if he surrendered. That makes me believe that the Giant is not going by strict 3.5, but believes (or at least Durkon did) that Resurrection would work on an unstaked vampire.

Unless Durkon was skipping over the "kill your body" part. Malack seemed to think that Durkon's proposal would change him back to the old shaman, though.

Excellent point. So both Malack and Durkon believe destroying and reviving undead works this way, and as powerful clerics they would know, so we can take their perspectives as authoritative in-universe.

However I don't see anything in Durkon's statement that implies "unstaked." He was going to beat Malack to powder and rez him.

Note that the whole vampire spirit thing sis already a house rule to begin with

Actually no, it's RAW - Complete Divine pg. 126 agrees with the Giant's version of events.

[dancrilis]

Sure. I mean. I could see an argument made... however, if I was DMing I would say it is up to the divine power that is doing the resurrection if it allows the vampiric spirit to remain or not. Therefore if a Evil deity wanted to allow it, they could. But no Good aligned deity would allow it, and the purification effect of that divine channeling is powerful enough to dispel the vampiric spirit. Importantly, however, it wouldn't be up to Hel - it'd be up to the deity of the cleric performing the res.

Direct deity intervention on the matter may be a breach of the domain agreement - it is saying that someone raised has the soul that the raising deity wants rather than the correct soul (again subject to how metaphysical laws regard dibs).

As a side note, doesn't Roy know the prediction about Durkon only returning to the Dwarven homeland posthumously? Wouldn't that make him realize he's wasting his time trying to res him before then?

Any return home after he died is posthumously - whether he is alive, dead, undead etc.
Also they are not going to the Dwarven lands but past them (although whether that is past via through I don't know), and of course I expect plans to change.

Completely away from the current chain of the topic - I wonder what Xykon is up to, presumably he has secured the gate while the Oots were on the airship, and we know (as well as we can anyway) that it will take a few weeks to complete the ritual - so are him and Redcloak completing it right now. Cause it seems he is travelling a bit light for sitting around for weeks doing it if interruptions will disrupt it - but than that is what heroes do at the high point of a ritual.
I am wondering if moments away from ritual completion the Oots will disrupt it - perhaps after Redcloak has shown his cards to Xykon (knowingly or not).

[Keltest]

That would be a brilliant insight...if the Giant used D&D rules in this comic. He doesn't. He can accept or break any D&D rule that he wants.

The rule of thumb is "like D&D unless specifically shown otherwise."

[littlebum2002]

The rule of thumb is "like D&D unless specifically shown otherwise."

Normally I agree, but the post in question said "Rich can't have vampires be resurrected into their hosts bodies because the rules say he can't". I was simply pointing out that, if he wanted to do this he could, since he is not tied down by the rules at all.

I don't think he will do that, but the fact that it's against the rules won't be what stops him.

[Gusion]

Direct deity intervention on the matter may be a breach of the domain agreement - it is saying that someone raised has the soul that the raising deity wants rather than the correct soul (again subject to how metaphysical laws regard dibs).

Frankly my true opinion is that once the undead creature is destroyed, the vampiric soul returns to whence it came and the original soul goes to their afterlife. Resurrection then calls upon the original soul to return to the body - thus the resurrected creature would not have a vampiric soul in it. That's how I really see the dynamics working.

But...

Magic already does plenty of things regarding souls. Soul Bind, for instance. If a cleric can bind a soul and imprison it in a gem, I see no reason why a clerical spell couldn't determine which one controls a physical body... since their resurrection spell could purposefully "call" the vampiric soul instead of the original soul back into the body. Such an act would be massively Evil, of course, and might be a different homebrewed spell only available to Evil domain clerics... but it my PCs wanted to do something like that, that's the mechanic to let it happen.

There is no breach of domain agreement regardless.

[Snails]

During their fatal conflict, Durkon told Malack that he could resurrect him if he surrendered. That makes me believe that the Giant is not going by strict 3.5, but believes (or at least Durkon did) that Resurrection would work on an unstaked vampire.

Unless Durkon was skipping over the "kill your body" part. Malack seemed to think that Durkon's proposal would change him back to the old shaman, though.

IMO, the Giant is adhering very closely to the Standard Vampire Model, as implied by the letter and spirit of the RAW.

Consider:
(1) We do have reason to suspect that Durkon does not have as high a Knowledge: Religion skill as we might hope for a cleric of his level. Durkon may simply not understand undeath very well.

(2) It is perfectly reasonable that Durkon was making an offer he had not thought through carefully and was talking with his usual naivete. Durkon could imagine that Malack was still his friend except for this vampirism "problem" that needed a cure. Malack saw things differently, but was less than forthcoming about it really worked.

(3) Durkon is allowed to be wrong. Just because he "knows" the spell Resurrection does not mean he has thought through all the corner cases -- his Knowledge Religion and Spellcraft might simply be too low to get to the exactly correct answers on the spur of the moment while under intense pressure. In fact, we have precedent for the idea that Durkon does not know the descriptions of his own spells: Control Weather.

[dancrilis]

(3) Durkon is allowed to be wrong. Just because he "knows" the spell Resurrection does not mean he has thought through all the corner cases -- his Knowledge Religion and Spellcraft might simply be too low to get to the exactly correct answers on the spur of the moment while under intense pressure.

As an example Haley tries magic on a golem despite knowing that golems are mostly immune to magic.

Having knowledge and being able to remember it spur of the moment are different things.

[Snails]

Note that the whole vampire spirit thing sis already a house rule to begin with

No and yes. It is perfectly consistent with the RAW and common mythologies about vampires.

So, no, it is not a "house rule" in the precise sense that any RAW rule has been rewritten. But the details are being fleshed out in an area that is ambiguous-- I would call this a "house interpretation".

[Snails]

As an example Haley tries magic on a golem despite knowing that golems are mostly immune to magic.

Having knowledge and being able to remember it spur of the moment are different things.

Yup. Not only does this kind of thing make some pretty good jokes (e.g. Control Weather) but the genre more or less forces the Giant to do this some of the time. If not, some readers would be confused and annoyed (e.g. "Hey, why doesn't Haley use any of those fancy wands and blast Crystal from the air?!? How stupid is she?"). Besides, Haley's mistake is "realistic" on multiple levels -- using wands is a new game for Haley and see lacks experience in the downsides.

[Darth Paul]

Yup. Not only does this kind of thing make some pretty good jokes (e.g. Control Weather) but the genre more or less forces the Giant to do this some of the time. If not, some readers would be confused and annoyed (e.g. "Hey, why doesn't Haley use any of those fancy wands and blast Crystal from the air?!? How stupid is she?"). Besides, Haley's mistake is "realistic" on multiple levels -- using wands is a new game for Haley and see lacks experience in the downsides.

My signature is a quote from The Giant on this very point. I will let the great man speak for himself.

[Messenger]

Not really - I already said it was unlikely, unless you disagree that it is conceivable?

Your argument is that the changes Malack's vampiric soul would encounter upon being brought back to life yet still being in control of his body would be so drastic that you say it was practically an annihilation of who he was. This is your interpretation of his words in the episode I cited.

This is where I disagree. If Malack is rezzed but the evil spirit remains, then that evil spirit- whom Durkon had come to know and be friends with- would still be the same Malack Durkon had befriended, even though he was no longer a vampire. His personality, history, character, memories, etc. would still be there, just operating further without the vampirism. The body changes, not the soul.

A phrase Malack used with the word complicated - living beings grow and change as such returning Malack to life would likely eventually destroy who he is on that day,and the end result would be the same as merely destroying him as living beings eventually die (normally).

Within the possibility that the vampiric spirit remains in control of Malack's resurrected body, the only change that would occur in this particular scenario- even if undeath and vampirism are major changes in physical and biological state- are incidental to Malack's identity, etc.

We're not talking here about the massive, essential changes to the core of a person that makes him a stranger to people who once knew him. Those take awhile and huge, deep changes. Malack's change here is sudden, small and quite superficial, even where it involves such weighty supernatural concepts as vampirism and resurrection. He'd still be Malack, just no longer a vampire.

Thus, within the possibility that a vampire's evil spirit remains in control after being brought back to life, Malack's comment in the OotS episode I cited that such would practically annihilate him makes no sense.

Most likely the case - not however definite.

The above reasoning is why I conclude that- at least as far as Malack knows- resurrecting a vampire does get rid of the evil spirit that controls the vampiric body where Malack says it will destroy the Malack Durkon had come to know and had befriended.

In the bigger picture:
- Rezzing Malack will bring back the shaman and not the undead priest of Nergal who adventured with Tarquin.
- Here, no possibility of an evil vampire spirit in charge of a newly revived, living, and non-vampiric body.
- Where Durkon's resurrection gets rid of the HPoH/Hel's agent, Hel isn't seeking for Durkon to be rezzed at all.

[BriarHobbit]

So, the junior priest knows something that the more senior priest either forgot or chose not to disclose. Interesting.

[Quild]

During their fatal conflict, Durkon told Malack that he could resurrect him if he surrendered. That makes me believe that the Giant is not going by strict 3.5, but believes (or at least Durkon did) that Resurrection would work on an unstaked vampire.

Unless Durkon was skipping over the "kill your body" part. Malack seemed to think that Durkon's proposal would change him back to the old shaman, though.

Wait... No!

I'll agree with Snails on that one, Durkon is probably wrong.
He seems to think that resurrecting Malack would mostly change his alignment and I think he even expects Malack to be useful against Tarquin.

I believe Durkon thinks about Malack exactly the same than Roy thinks about vampire Durkon.

So, the junior priest knows something that the more senior priest either forgot or chose not to disclose. Interesting.

Why not? Vampires seems to be rare, he's a nerd in his way.

[Trubbol]

Anyone else reaaaally hoping that nothing bad happens to this gnome? Or any Gnome for that matter?
I do not want to see gnomebody getting hurt.

[toughluck]

Messenger, just to reinforce the points you're making.

Your argument is that the changes Malack's vampiric soul would encounter upon being brought back to life yet still being in control of his body would be so drastic that you say it was practically an annihilation of who he was. This is your interpretation of his words in the episode I cited.

This is where I disagree. If Malack is rezzed but the evil spirit remains, then that evil spirit- whom Durkon had come to know and be friends with- would still be the same Malack Durkon had befriended, even though he was no longer a vampire. His personality, history, character, memories, etc. would still be there, just operating further without the vampirism. The body changes, not the soul.

Durkon did not have the Durkula persona before his vampirization. Now Durkula is controlling the body. I think the main thing here is that Durkula would be annihilated once the vampire is rezzed, and it's back to old Durkon, unbound -- although with the memory of all events taking place now.

Within the possibility that the vampiric spirit remains in control of Malack's resurrected body, the only change that would occur in this particular scenario- even if undeath and vampirism are major changes in physical and biological state- are incidental to Malack's identity, etc.

We're not talking here about the massive, essential changes to the core of a person that makes him a stranger to people who once knew him. Those take awhile and huge, deep changes. Malack's change here is sudden, small and quite superficial, even where it involves such weighty supernatural concepts as vampirism and resurrection. He'd still be Malack, just no longer a vampire.

He'd be Malack, not Count Malack anymore. So the shaman would be back in control of the body. Obviously, what he throughout the years would definitely leave an impression on him and he'd either seek to make amends or he'd look for ways to vampirize himself again.

To be honest, I think others are simply trolling or they are power players who think that vampirism is a nice template that gives a number of advantages, some disadvantages and overall, can come in useful to some adventurers. If DMs had followed the path that The Giant laid out, it would have probably straightened out the picture.

[Killer Angel]

So, the junior priest knows something that the more senior priest either forgot or chose not to disclose. Interesting.

This is not the first time we saw something very similar.
It seems junior priests are more knowledgeable then their old ones.

[rafet]

This is not the first time we saw something very similar.
It seems junior priests are more knowledgeable then their old ones.

Or senior priests are wise enough not to chase after a vampire and explain what is really happening.

[Darth Paul]

Anyone else reaaaally hoping that nothing bad happens to this gnome? Or any Gnome for that matter?
I do not want to see gnomebody getting hurt.

{singing}

Gnomebody knows the trouble I've seen,

Gnomebody knows my sorrow...

[toughluck]

Applying Norse legends lore to the comic might be misleading. The Giant has stated that until he references Nordic legends in the strip, those legends don't exist in OOTS world (source: http://web.archive.org/web/200702200...ead.php?t=7283)

Nevertheless, Thor is a god of thunder, Loki of fire, Odin is their father, Hel is the goddess of the underworld, receiving those that did not die in battle and so on. It's reasonable to assume that where it's not stated, The Giant follows the mythology. If not, Roy and Durkula could just as well visit a temple of Freya (a goddess, as opposed to Hoder, just a demi-god).

[Jay R]

On the assumption that the HPoH doesn't really want Durkon resurrected, what does he want? I have two theories:

1. There is some other 7th level spell he wants, that he as an evil cleric, or a cleric of Hel, can't cast himself, or

2. Resurrection is the most deadly threat to him and his soon-to-be follower vampires, and he wants to vamp the only cleric in the North who can stop him.

Any other obvious possibilities?

[toughluck]

If so, Hel and her High Priest's plan doesn't involve rezzing Durkon but someone else- and that's if it involves a resurrection spell at all. For all we know, citing the ability to cast resurrection is simply a way for them to gauge a cleric's level and ability.

Durkon can cast resurrection. He doesn't need anyone rezzed, so it's the only other explanation.

[happycrow]

On the assumption that the HPoH doesn't really want Durkon resurrected, what does he want? I have two theories:

1. There is some other 7th level spell he wants, that he as an evil cleric, or a cleric of Hel, can't cast himself, or

2. Resurrection is the most deadly threat to him and his soon-to-be follower vampires, and he wants to vamp the only cleric in the North who can stop him.

Any other obvious possibilities?

Establish himself as "beyond help" so Roy & Co get used to him being undead-but-needed, so that he can pursue his mission with minimal oversight/surveillance.

[Keltest]

Nevertheless, Thor is a god of thunder, Loki of fire, Odin is their father, Hel is the goddess of the underworld, receiving those that did not die in battle and so on. It's reasonable to assume that where it's not stated, The Giant follows the mythology. If not, Roy and Durkula could just as well visit a temple of Freya (a goddess, as opposed to Hoder, just a demi-god).

Its reasonable starting speculation, but trying to use the myths to actually reinforce an argument is pretty much doomed to failure.

[Jay R]

Establish himself as "beyond help" so Roy & Co get used to him being undead-but-needed, so that he can pursue his mission with minimal oversight/surveillance.

That doesn't explain trying to find a 7th level cleric Roy doesn't know about, and being annoyed that he couldn't find him. It would have been so much easier to say, "Well, I guess we can't find one."

It's clear that the HPoH actually wants to find this 7th level cleric.

[toughluck]

Its reasonable starting speculation, but trying to use the myths to actually reinforce an argument is pretty much doomed to failure.

Fair enough. Until the comic or The Giant state otherwise, we can assume that he based the pantheon on Norse myths. And if he decides to change some things (like Hoder being a god, for example, other than to have him as Hel's husband, as some imply), it's all fair game.
Otherwise, Loki could just as well be Thor's father and Odin could be his evil nephew, etc.

That doesn't explain trying to find a 7th level cleric Roy doesn't know about, and being annoyed that he couldn't find him. It would have been so much easier to say, "Well, I guess we can't find one."

Durkula doesn't know how much effort he needs to show to get Roy to believe he was really trying to find a sufficiently powerful cleric. Like he can't refuse to go to the shrine of Skadi, despite any desire not to do so (furrowed brow in 984 could just as likely be due to his short temper as well as the unhappiness at not getting what he wanted).

It's clear that the HPoH actually wants to find this 7th level cleric.

It's not completely clear. It's strongly implied, but Rich has a way of inserting surprising plot twists, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was one planned here.

[Breccia]

On the assumption that the HPoH doesn't really want Durkon resurrected, what does he want? I have two theories:

1. There is some other 7th level spell he wants, that he as an evil cleric, or a cleric of Hel, can't cast himself

It would have to be a domain spell, or Durkula would cast it himself. Legend Lore on the staff to learn the spell, perhaps? Greater Teleport? Anti-Life Shell? Nothing good is leaping to mind.

Is there an undead-boosting spell? Could a like-minded cleric fake a resurrection, or more likely, fake the failure of one?

EDIT: Is there a spell, or magic item, that the undead cleric of the undead Durkula could use to take over Xykon?

[rafet]

On the assumption that the HPoH doesn't really want Durkon resurrected, what does he want? I have two theories:

1. There is some other 7th level spell he wants, that he as an evil cleric, or a cleric of Hel, can't cast himself, or

2. Resurrection is the most deadly threat to him and his soon-to-be follower vampires, and he wants to vamp the only cleric in the North who can stop him.

Any other obvious possibilities?

3. Someone to cast the other half of the ritual red cloak has?

[Kantaki]

3. Someone to cast the other half of the ritual red cloak has?

Would have to be an arcane caster not another divine. In that case HpoH would't visit temples but mage-schools instead.

[Killer Angel]

Or senior priests are wise enough not to chase after a vampire and explain what is really happening.

Good point. After all, Wis is their primary stat...

[Snails]

Hel surely has a very specific plan and it is going to be a high risk, go for broke gambit.

This fishing expedition is not without implicit cost -- any day now some smartypants might blurt out "Gee, we have no High Priest, but you and any wizard could work together to make a scroll of Resurrection. Our Priest here is high enough level that will probably work."