Whirlwind Attack v. Mithral Tornado

[Firechanter]

Spell Compendium of course isn't obscure, but Exemplars of Evil is - at least in my eyes - and I have also learned to avoid the brokenness of Frostburn.

However, I am inclined to agree about Mithral Tornado, giving it Reach wouldn't wreck the game more than casters already do. Anyway, I'd probably go for the 10' variant for sanity's sake.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Friendly Fire is one of the most broken spells ever printed, it single-handedly shuts down many builds and some entire classes, automatically. No serious discussion of the game should involve it any more than infinite loops or wish economies.

Thankfully, it *is* from a really obscure book, so most people will never even know it exists.

[Marlowe]

Firechanter, could you explain what about Frostburn is broken?

I've noticed that it seems to have an oddly high number of things that are actually useful, especially compared with the generally uninspiring content of Sandstorm and Stormwrack.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Firechanter, could you explain what about Frostburn is broken?

I've noticed that it seems to have an oddly high number of things that are actually useful, especially compared with the generally uninspiring content of Sandstorm and Stormwrack.

Sandstorm does have some nice things. But Frostburn has Ice Assassin, which is kind of infamous for the insane shenanigans you can pull off with it.
There's also a bunch of decently strong other spells there (especially for druids) but they're no worse than core spells.

I have to agree that Stormwrack kind of sucks though.

[Firechanter]

Well, for instance those spells that have been referenced here in this thread? I didn't have them on my screen (nobody ever tried to use them), but looking at them now I would hardly call them balanced. Mostly they do way too much for their spell level.

Or remember the Locate City Bomb? Only works with Frostburn (Snowcasting feat).

Or how about turning any and all Dragons into insta-gib One-Shots with a measly level 3 spell? --> hooray for Shivering Touch!

So far I can't say I've seen anything ever referenced from Frostburn that was _not_ used to break the game. That's hardly a good track record for a supposedly balanced splat.

[Andezzar]

Or how about turning any and all Dragons into insta-gib One-Shots with a measly level 3 spell? --> hooray for Shivering Touch!

Without metamagic this is a very poor spell to use on a dragon. It is touch range. It is not guaranteed to deal 10 or more DEX damage. Even if you remove those drawbacks (reach spell, maximize spell), which makes the tactic more costly than a measly 3rd level spell, the spell still allows SR. So all but the smallest dragons still can defend against it. Lastly the spell is a [cold] spell, so some dragons are immune to it.

These problems all exist even before the dragon starts to build its defenses against it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Without metamagic this is a very poor spell to use on a dragon. It is touch range. It is not guaranteed to deal 10 or more DEX damage. Even if you remove those drawbacks (reach spell, maximize spell), which makes the tactic more costly than a measly 3rd level spell, the spell still allows SR. So all but the smallest dragons still can defend against it. Lastly the spell is a [cold] spell, so some dragons are immune to it.

These problems all exist even before the dragon starts to build its defenses against it.

The average of 3d6 is 10.5, you have very good odds of crippling the dragon even w/o metamagic, and empower is enough to be sure. Actually, it might even stack with itself, I forget. SR is easy, it's called the Assay Spell Resistance spell. You'd be using it anyway. Touch range isn't that bad, makes a good counter for when it tries to melee you, or just have your spectral hand deliver it.

Some dragons are indeed immune to it. That's about the only time the spell isn't completely game breaking against True Dragons....when it cannot function at all.

Why are we debating broken spells in a thread about WWA and MT and AH again? And how is it we NEED to debate that shivering touch is a broken spell?