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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : There Will Be No Sin

    VII divines, it's the IX divines you milk drinker! (You forgot to add a link to the last thread.)
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    Oh no, Duck999 is a mason.

    How can I possibly suspect you of being a wolf now? :(

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : There Will Be No Sin

    I'm doing something wrong. . .
    :(

    I ruined Skyrimas.

    Edit-
    I think I fixed it.
    Last edited by ArlEammon; 2015-05-19 at 09:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    I'm doing something wrong. . .
    :(

    I ruined Skyrimas.

    Edit-
    I think I fixed it.
    You could've done better... but then you took an arrow to the knee.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : There Will Be No Sin

    Awww, I liked my Thalmor or Less joke for the title.
    Ah well, puns are an acquired taste.


    Quote Originally Posted by meto30 View Post
    I believe this would've been already mentioned in the elder scrolls threads at least once, but I'd like to mention this now: has anyone else found that the interior cells of the Dragonsreach (as in Skyrim) do not make sense at all?
    It does have some weird architecture breaks yeah.
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    Using Infinite Light on that damned Gauldur archer is love.
    Thanks to Veera for the avatar.

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    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    I'm getting the Skyrim itch again... I'm tempted to bull my way through the Oblivion main quest just so I can say I did it, then move on to Skyrim.
    The Cranky Gamer
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    I'm King Torryg, Digodragon started a new thread title, that makes him Ulfric Stormcloak. Now that I'm dead, I guess I'll enter a Console Command to be General Tullius.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I'm getting the Skyrim itch again... I'm tempted to bull my way through the Oblivion main quest just so I can say I did it, then move on to Skyrim.
    I'm having that problem too, but for me it's Knights of the Nine I need to finish. :( ESO is calling for my attention too, but I can do Writs once a day to keep that one quiet.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    I'm King Torryg, Digodragon started a new thread title, that makes him Ulfric Stormcloak. Now that I'm dead, I guess I'll enter a Console Command to be General Tullius.
    Well my day just got more complicated.
    So which one of you is the dragonborn?


    I have this morbid curiosity to get back into Skyrim solely so I can take companions to fight giants, have the giant smash the companion into low orbit, and then wait a little bit before using the console to teleport myself to where they landed.

    For science of course.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : There Will Be No Sin

    Thread made a page or two early before we'd thought of a title and not linked in the last thread.

    Continuing my thought process for a Thalmor Character I started from last thread. It's kind of a ramble though.

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    After some time pondering and bouncing around the idea of being an overt thalmor representative, I was forced to conclude that it wouldn't happen. The environment of skyrim just doesn't work for it. So, I thought about less overt thalmor agents. Afterall, the thalmor have spies everywhere, amirite?

    So, I've got an informant and spy. Throwing together some back story, I decided she was a High Elf, rather than a Khajiit or Bosmer; I'm in the mood to play a mage, and high elves have the best start for it. Illusion, Destruction, and Conjuration all fit nicely as well; I'll probably skip out on "pure" mage and instead grab Stealth, Light Armor, and Archery as my other three major skills. Bound Bows are thematically nice and I really like them.

    I'm skipping out on the vanilla start thanks to Live Another Life. This gives me a start inside the Thalmor Embassy, with a convenient journal entry that indicates that my character has been cooped up in the embassy for a while and is now being set loose with vague objectives. I can use the vague objectives. I've decided I don't want to have the main questline start early (partially because setting off the main questline will cause me to stop being friendly with the Thalmor, partially just cause I hate the early main questline), so that leaves the Brotherhood, Companions, Thieves Guild, and Winterhold questlines. I'm ruling out the Brotherhood (I don't particularly have anything against it, especially late game, but Thalmor Interests don't run in that direction, unless I'm destroying the brotherhood), and I feel like the Companions are at odds with my desired play style. So, Guild vs College.

    One of these has a proven Thalmor interest, so lets look at the other one first.

    The Thieves Guild: Note, Spoilers
    Word on the streets of riften is that the Thieves Guild are getting their **** rekt. They're on the out. the Summerset Shadows is a rival thieves guild formed entirely of Altmer. Between the Shadows and the Guild, the Thalmor would probably want to back the Shadows and help them get better established and expand them, planting agents to turn it into an extension of the spy network. An agent being planted into the Guild would be being planted into a half dead organization that is in the process of being finished off; probably not worth the resource.

    The College of Winterhold
    There's already a Thalmor Agent on hand, an Advisor To The Archmage. The college is /basically/ the entire representation of mages in skyrim (well, it's the only organized group of mages that aren't cultists of some form), and it's also where any sort of organized response is going to come from from mages in general. Ancano is kind of an obvious bait though, plus he's a little... yeah.

    So: the game plan;
    Step 1: Prove Reliable; assist thalmor operations in Markarth
    Step 2: make my way to winterhold and insert myself into the next apprentice cycle
    Step 3: Review Ancaco's behavior and stability.
    Step 4: Long Term infiltration

    Naturally, this goes off the rails. The character will /eventually/ end up over near Helgen, and events will move quickly and once it becomes clear that they're the Dragonborn, well, there's a kill order in the works.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    A good aligned Thalmor is perfectly plausible, Oscar Schindler and John Rabe were both very good German Human beings during World War II.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meto30 View Post
    I believe this would've been already mentioned in the elder scrolls threads at least once, but I'd like to mention this now: has anyone else found that the interior cells of the Dragonsreach (as in Skyrim) do not make sense at all? I was trying to create a Minecraft version of it in my Realms world, and after fiddling with multiple floor plans sketched from memory I decided to reinstall Skyrim to take my own reference screenshots. And my conclusion, after several minutes of running around continuously, is that the Jarl's Quarters is a sub-plane linked to the rest of the castle by portals.
    Pretty sure that's true of a lot of places in Skyrim, but for Dragonsreach in particular I don't think it's the greatest of their problems.

    Answer me this: you know those rivers of water that are gushing down from Dragonsreach through the city? Well, where exactly is all that water coming from?
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Thread made a page or two early before we'd thought of a title and not linked in the last thread.

    Continuing my thought process for a Thalmor Character I started from last thread. It's kind of a ramble though.

    The Thieves Guild: Note, Spoilers
    Spoiler
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    Word on the streets of riften is that the Thieves Guild are getting their **** rekt. They're on the out. the Summerset Shadows is a rival thieves guild formed entirely of Altmer. Between the Shadows and the Guild, the Thalmor would probably want to back the Shadows and help them get better established and expand them, planting agents to turn it into an extension of the spy network. An agent being planted into the Guild would be being planted into a half dead organization that is in the process of being finished off; probably not worth the resource.
    Spoiler
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    The Summerset Shadows are so secretive that there's no discoverable trace of them anywhere in Skyrim. I strongly suspect they're all talk. Literally, in the sense that "talk is all that exists of them". The Guild may be on the ropes, but at least it has an established network of members, contacts and fences.

    The Thalmor have infiltrated the guild to the extent of having at least one informant in their ranks, unless of course one takes the opportunity to kill him at the Thalmor embassy. He's just a nobody, but he's probably capable of reporting the fact that the guild has had a change of leadership and everyone's feeling better about it. I suspect the Thalmor are also tight with Maven Black-Briar, because how the heck did those fully armed and uniformed troops get into Stormcloak-held Riften's sewers? - but there's no proof of that that I know of.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    About the Civil War.

    I sympathize highly with the Stormcloaks. I don't think they're a bad faction, just too folksy, and their cause is stupid since Ulfric is at the helm of it. (Although even Ulfric isn't without his sympathetic leanings and good qualities). I would side with the Empire but knowing about their torturers, and willingness to murder innocent people, the Civil War in Skyrim is more grey morality than players ever talk about, but if you look very closely and analyze for long enough, you'll realize that while it is a grey morality type of situation, it just wasn't presented competently. As it stands, Skyrim gives the implications that nearly all Nords are racist bastards who are like a softened Klu Klux Klan, and the Empire, while harsh, is a smarter, more civilized culture, while technically true in some ways, the Imperial Legion is handling the situation rather badly.

    Let's just say that the torture racks in Solitude I found far outweigh the kind of torture I found in Windhelm. Also, having mages torture prisoners of war is likely an Imperial Only thing. But the Empire still has higher merit for a rival against the Thalmor. Skyrim might hold against the Thalmor, sure, it's a very mountainous, harsh, insulated place against invaders, with a lot of hide outs, and the folk know the lay of the land far better than the Legion.

    But uh, Nords are one single race of people, who won't even take advantage of the extra man power that Argonians and Dunmer can give to the Legion. They effectively segregate them with a Jim Crow style segregation, accusing them of being spies for the Imperial Legion. . . they aren't just being immoral with their racist attitudes, they won't take advantage of the Bosmer, Dunmer, Khajit, Argonian refugees as soldiers. There's no way Skyrim can expand out of it's corner in the world. Unless of course the Dragonborn was in charge, then there might be some effective leadership in control long enough to bring the Thalmor to it's knees with only Skyrim's army. ((Although, to be fair, with the Dragonborn's presumably more modern form of ethics, he would be incorporating Argonias, Khajit, Bosmer and Dunmer into Skyrim's forces against the Thalmor and enforcing racial equality laws)).

    Dunmer have a lot to bring the table, just as much as all the other races but the Dunmer are the third best mages in the Elder Scroll series. Khajit are a god given gift to an army if they get low on supplies, they can fight with literal claws, rending leather, hide and MAYBE iron armor and shields, and probably their teeth as well. Argonians are a strategic nitemare for enemy martial forces since they can breathe water, and they aren't lacking in fighting power either.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    A good aligned Thalmor is perfectly plausible, Oscar Schindler and John Rabe were both very good German Human beings during World War II.
    Of course they are. I've been toying with the idea for a while. I want to play someone who believes the rhetoric and ends up having the people she loves/trusts turn on her due to circumstances beyond her control that she can't change. Makes for some fun experimentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
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    The Summerset Shadows are so secretive that there's no discoverable trace of them anywhere in Skyrim. I strongly suspect they're all talk. Literally, in the sense that "talk is all that exists of them". The Guild may be on the ropes, but at least it has an established network of members, contacts and fences.

    The Thalmor have infiltrated the guild to the extent of having at least one informant in their ranks, unless of course one takes the opportunity to kill him at the Thalmor embassy. He's just a nobody, but he's probably capable of reporting the fact that the guild has had a change of leadership and everyone's feeling better about it. I suspect the Thalmor are also tight with Maven Black-Briar, because how the heck did those fully armed and uniformed troops get into Stormcloak-held Riften's sewers? - but there's no proof of that that I know of.
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    Very true. Of course, the Shadows could be a Thalmor attempt to take over the criminal underworld... Only Linwe could tell, and he's dead now, so.

    Though it's note worthy that Mercer has been in charge for ~20 years or whatever and the guild has been falling apart under his leadership. While the Thalmor have captured the guy and are torturing him for information, the guy never actually... you know, appears anywhere else until after you rescue him, so you can go and take over the entire thieves guild without him ever knowing about it. So the Thalmor information there is recent. It's very likely that they don't know all the details.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Sorry to double post, this popped up while my post was, lets say, pending.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    About the Civil War.

    I sympathize highly with the Stormcloaks. I don't think they're a bad faction, just too folksy, and their cause is stupid since Ulfric is at the helm of it. (Although even Ulfric isn't without his sympathetic leanings and good qualities). I would side with the Empire but knowing about their torturers, and willingness to murder innocent people, the Civil War in Skyrim is more grey morality than players ever talk about, but if you look very closely and analyze for long enough, you'll realize that while it is a grey morality type of situation, it just wasn't presented competently. As it stands, Skyrim gives the implications that nearly all Nords are racist bastards who are like a softened Klu Klux Klan, and the Empire, while harsh, is a smarter, more civilized culture, while technically true in some ways, the Imperial Legion is handling the situation rather badly.

    Let's just say that the torture racks in Solitude I found far outweigh the kind of torture I found in Windhelm. Also, having mages torture prisoners of war is likely an Imperial Only thing. But the Empire still has higher merit for a rival against the Thalmor. Skyrim might hold against the Thalmor, sure, it's a very mountainous, harsh, insulated place against invaders, with a lot of hide outs, and the folk know the lay of the land far better than the Legion.

    But uh, Nords are one single race of people, who won't even take advantage of the extra man power that Argonians and Dunmer can give to the Legion. They effectively segregate them with a Jim Crow style segregation, accusing them of being spies for the Imperial Legion. . . they aren't just being immoral with their racist attitudes, they won't take advantage of the Bosmer, Dunmer, Khajit, Argonian refugees as soldiers. There's no way Skyrim can expand out of it's corner in the world. Unless of course the Dragonborn was in charge, then there might be some effective leadership in control long enough to bring the Thalmor to it's knees with only Skyrim's army. ((Although, to be fair, with the Dragonborn's presumably more modern form of ethics, he would be incorporating Argonias, Khajit, Bosmer and Dunmer into Skyrim's forces against the Thalmor and enforcing racial equality laws)).

    Dunmer have a lot to bring the table, just as much as all the other races but the Dunmer are the third best mages in the Elder Scroll series. Khajit are a god given gift to an army if they get low on supplies, they can fight with literal claws, rending leather, hide and MAYBE iron armor and shields, and probably their teeth as well. Argonians are a strategic nitemare for enemy martial forces since they can breathe water, and they aren't lacking in fighting power either.
    That's actually why my theoretical reconstruction of Skyrim (written as a fanfic, though at present it is almost entirely in planning stages and I have not rambled about it at all here because I am notoriously bad at actually writing fanfic) has the stormcloaks reforging the Ebonheart Pact in some ways; the Dunmer and Argonians of Windhelm are being used to their fullest. While /some/ people are racists (Dawnstar Jarl refuses to properly utilize non-Nord troops and Ulfric is very careful to not assign him any as such) many stormcloak supporters are anti-Thalmor rather than Racists. While this is still a case of Ulfric being a dumbass, he is at least showing that he has a strong tactical and strategic sense. (Whether or not it's Galmar who's got the sense is up for debate).

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    But uh, Nords are one single race of people, who won't even take advantage of the extra man power that Argonians and Dunmer can give to the Legion. They effectively segregate them with a Jim Crow style segregation, accusing them of being spies for the Imperial Legion. . . they aren't just being immoral with their racist attitudes, they won't take advantage of the Bosmer, Dunmer, Khajit, Argonian refugees as soldiers. There's no way Skyrim can expand out of it's corner in the world. Unless of course the Dragonborn was in charge, then there might be some effective leadership in control long enough to bring the Thalmor to it's knees with only Skyrim's army. ((Although, to be fair, with the Dragonborn's presumably more modern form of ethics, he would be incorporating Argonias, Khajit, Bosmer and Dunmer into Skyrim's forces against the Thalmor and enforcing racial equality laws)).

    Dunmer have a lot to bring the table, just as much as all the other races but the Dunmer are the third best mages in the Elder Scroll series. Khajit are a god given gift to an army if they get low on supplies, they can fight with literal claws, rending leather, hide and MAYBE iron armor and shields, and probably their teeth as well. Argonians are a strategic nitemare for enemy martial forces since they can breathe water, and they aren't lacking in fighting power either.
    The trouble with preaching racial harmony and universal acceptance is that nobody gets to start with a clean slate.

    Dunmer and Argonians hate each other, far more than the Nords of Windhelm hate either one. Bretons are regarded with understandable suspicion in the Reach because of the Forsworn. Argonians are suspicious of the Empire because they used to be a part of it, and they suspect the Imperials would like to restore that arrangement. Khajit are mistrusted by basically everyone, because half of them are thieves, and another half believe the Thalmor were responsible for restoring their moons. Bosmer are in the same boat. There's tension between Imperials and Redguards because of the Empire's abandonment of Hammerfell, and between Imperials and Nords because of the current war. As for the Orcs - well, they generally side with the Imperials because that's the only major power that's ever treated them decently.

    And of course everyone hates the Altmer. (Although, if you want to talk about a really put-upon race, there's the Falmer...)

    I sided reflexively with the Legion the first time I attempted the Civil War, and regretted it when I saw the contrast between Ulfric and Tullius at the end. Tullius is almost as racist as Ulfric, he just hides it better from (most of) his troops. (Actually I regretted it earlier than that, the moment I saw who took over as Jarl of Riften, but I could've got over that in the end.)

    I still think the Dragonborn's most effective play to end the civil war would be to go on a genocidal rampage against the Thalmor. Butcher every last one of them in Skyrim, including most especially and most graphically Elenwen herself. Make it clear that the Thalmor's current approach - hiding behind the Legion - won't work, because the Legion can't protect them from the real threat (viz, me), which is more criminal/terrorist than military in nature. Force them to choose between "launching a full-on invasion" and "abandoning the province entirely". Either way, I think the Stormcloaks and Empire could soon patch things up under those conditions. It may involve banging the heads of Elisif and Ulfric together, but speaking as Dragonborn, I'd be happy to do that. Literally, if necessary.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    I never needed an excuse to kill every Thalmor that I could (and thoroughly enjoyed assassinating the emissaries in Markarth), but the Dwemer were even bigger monsters than the extremist Altmer. One could pity the Falmer if they hadn't degenerated so far into savage beasts not particularly any better than the charus. Killing them as they appear is an act of mercy.

    I played through both sides of the Civil War, and found leadership wanting on both sides. Rikke and Galmar were pretty sympathetic (yes, Galmar!), but Tullius and Ulfric. Those guys. Ugh. If Ulfric wasn't the leader, I'd have no problem siding with the Stormcloaks every time, but as it is, my characters never do the dirty work of Ulfric or Tullius in the end. Because screw those guys. Dovahkin is going to be over here saving the world so you petty jerks can kill each other over who gets to sit in the big chair. And then I'm retiring to my own estate and killing anyone from either side who comes looking to recruit/kill/tax/assimilate my stead. Turns out my computer *can* handle the Blackthorn estate mod without crapping out, so I can actually follow through with that plan.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    The trouble with preaching racial harmony and universal acceptance is that nobody gets to start with a clean slate.

    Dunmer and Argonians hate each other, far more than the Nords of Windhelm hate either one. Bretons are regarded with understandable suspicion in the Reach because of the Forsworn. Argonians are suspicious of the Empire because they used to be a part of it, and they suspect the Imperials would like to restore that arrangement. Khajit are mistrusted by basically everyone, because half of them are thieves, and another half believe the Thalmor were responsible for restoring their moons. Bosmer are in the same boat. There's tension between Imperials and Redguards because of the Empire's abandonment of Hammerfell, and between Imperials and Nords because of the current war. As for the Orcs - well, they generally side with the Imperials because that's the only major power that's ever treated them decently.

    And of course everyone hates the Altmer. (Although, if you want to talk about a really put-upon race, there's the Falmer...)

    I sided reflexively with the Legion the first time I attempted the Civil War, and regretted it when I saw the contrast between Ulfric and Tullius at the end. Tullius is almost as racist as Ulfric, he just hides it better from (most of) his troops. (Actually I regretted it earlier than that, the moment I saw who took over as Jarl of Riften, but I could've got over that in the end.)

    I still think the Dragonborn's most effective play to end the civil war would be to go on a genocidal rampage against the Thalmor. Butcher every last one of them in Skyrim, including most especially and most graphically Elenwen herself. Make it clear that the Thalmor's current approach - hiding behind the Legion - won't work, because the Legion can't protect them from the real threat (viz, me), which is more criminal/terrorist than military in nature. Force them to choose between "launching a full-on invasion" and "abandoning the province entirely". Either way, I think the Stormcloaks and Empire could soon patch things up under those conditions. It may involve banging the heads of Elisif and Ulfric together, but speaking as Dragonborn, I'd be happy to do that. Literally, if necessary.
    When I'm talking about a De-Segregated StormCloak army, I"m not talking about the army all fighting together. I'm talking more like there being squads and units of Khajit, etcetera. The divisions of the military would be "segregated", sort of like the Buffalo Soldiers of African Americans during the Civil War, if I remember correctly. But you've got to admit, the Empire won't save anyone, it's incompetent, hence the masses of refugees all running to Skyrim. If they could live in their little China Towns and Little Italies, partially left alone in peace, that's leagues better than the current situation and having to worry about harassment by either Imperials and Stormcloaks. Heck, if I remember right, Khajit aren't exactly welcome warm heartedly even in Solitude, they can only come in for a drink or a stay for the night and then have to leave. How's that for Imperial hospitality?

    And I've got to say, Tullius isn't just a jerk, he's a jerk to Elisif, who is a forlorn widow trying to heal her broken heart from what she rightfully, (But incorrectly) sees as the murder of her husband, High King Torryg. I don't buy the Empire's rhetoric that he murdered High King Torryg, but I could sympathetically agree with Elisif to her face. Magic is probably not allowed in Nord duels for High Kingship, but the Thu'um is "Ancient Nord Arts", as the old songs say, and Ulfric basically loop holed through the rules of dueling.

    It's worth noting that while Ulfric is heavily flawed in ethical character, he's "good enough" for Sovengarde, so I don't think his rebellion is one hundred percent self-centered. The problem is that his personality is just naturally incredibly arrogant. He viewed himself as a super hero, and kind of is/was in Skyrim for a while with his Thu'um being much stronger than ordinary Elder Scrolls magic. What Ulfric should have done was embark on a Saga/adventurer's route like the Dragonborn, who is probably a canonical Nord aristocrat, if not by birth, then certainly by the time a player gets into the main quest at all.

    I could imagine Ulfric delving through Dungeons and players being him for a while before the start of the real protagonist's journey. Which is probably the only way the intro to Skyrim could get any better.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    I am 95% sure the only unaffiliated khajiit in skyrim are, like, rng'd bandits and the light house dude. Argonian stormcloaks, sure, but khajiit no

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    I am 95% sure the only unaffiliated khajiit in skyrim are, like, rng'd bandits and the light house dude. Argonian stormcloaks, sure, but khajiit no
    Argonians are only dock workers. They are like the foreigners that discriminating snobs give bad jobs to and don't pay them enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    I am 95% sure the only unaffiliated khajiit in skyrim are, like, rng'd bandits and the light house dude. Argonian stormcloaks, sure, but khajiit no
    Those two workers in that one Dwemer ruin and the Thalmor embassy cook as well (although I guess she's... working for the Thalmor? Odd one, that), but yeah. The Dark Brotherhood even has a Shadowscale, at least, but no Khajiit.

    Which is partly why I ended up playing one. I was hoping for some unique dialogue to that effect, but turns out there's basically none. Not even the Khajiit caravans acknowledge you any differently. Oh well. At least I can claw mammoths to death.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    and the Thalmor embassy cook as well (although I guess she's... working for the Thalmor? Odd one, that)
    That reminded me of a comment about fur when doing the 'To Kill an Empire' quest and you're playing as a Khajiit. Guess the Thalmor don't care about it.
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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    Argonians are only dock workers. They are like the foreigners that discriminating snobs give bad jobs to and don't pay them enough.
    IT'S A PERIOD PIECE.

    Yes, it turns out that a medieval fantasy features some examples of racism and bigotry. That's actually part and parcel of the low-fantasy genre, with, of course the exception that the in-game examples of same are far more tame than their actual historical antecedents. Plus, hey, we have economic refugees, racially skewed underclasses, and good old bigotry alive in well in the modern world, so I don't see why that means people continually try to equate Ulfric Stormcloak with John C. Calhoun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    IT'S A PERIOD PIECE.

    Yes, it turns out that a medieval fantasy features some examples of racism and bigotry. That's actually part and parcel of the low-fantasy genre, with, of course the exception that the in-game examples of same are far more tame than their actual historical antecedents. Plus, hey, we have economic refugees, racially skewed underclasses, and good old bigotry alive in well in the modern world, so I don't see why that means people continually try to equate Ulfric Stormcloak with John C. Calhoun.
    I don't know who that is, but I like Stormcloak, he's just using racism as an excuse for stronger kinship between Stormcloaks, IMHO. I doubt he's really a racist. He used to work with the Grey Beards. You know what that means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    I am 95% sure the only unaffiliated khajiit in skyrim are, like, rng'd bandits and the light house dude. Argonian stormcloaks, sure, but khajiit no
    Since the khajit racial leadership/government is pro-Thalmor, I imagine the Stormcloaks would be even more than averagely suspicious of them. (I mean, even more suspicious than they are of Dunmer and Argonians, both of whom detest the Thalmor.)

    I can think of four "aligned" khajit, and three of them are pro-Thalmor (as far as we can tell) - the cook in the embassy, the assassin in Riften and the assassin outside Windhelm are all Thalmor-ish, but on the other hand, Ri'saad talks about the last as "Thalmor filth, eh? Giving all Khajiit a bad name", so we know at least one influential khajit shares our opinion of them. The rest are mostly the travelling merchants. Are there any khajit who just live peacefully in a city and mind their own business?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthArminius View Post
    I don't know who that is, but I like Stormcloak, he's just using racism as an excuse for stronger kinship between Stormcloaks, IMHO. I doubt he's really a racist. He used to work with the Grey Beards. You know what that means.
    Well, sure - it means he was physically fit enough to climb the steps to High Hrothgar at least once, and (unlike Klimmek) had the self-confidence to knock on the door when he got to the top.

    I think there's something very unpleasant about Ulfric's racism. His policy of "standing up for Nords and only Nords" - is weirdly anachronistic for a pseudo-dark-ages/early-medieval setting. He's basically invented a type of racism that shouldn't exist until the early-modern period.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Since the khajit racial leadership/government is pro-Thalmor, I imagine the Stormcloaks would be even more than averagely suspicious of them. (I mean, even more suspicious than they are of Dunmer and Argonians, both of whom detest the Thalmor.)

    I can think of four "aligned" khajit, and three of them are pro-Thalmor (as far as we can tell) - the cook in the embassy, the assassin in Riften and the assassin outside Windhelm are all Thalmor-ish, but on the other hand, Ri'saad talks about the last as "Thalmor filth, eh? Giving all Khajiit a bad name", so we know at least one influential khajit shares our opinion of them. The rest are mostly the travelling merchants. Are there any khajit who just live peacefully in a city and mind their own business?

    Well, sure - it means he was physically fit enough to climb the steps to High Hrothgar at least once, and (unlike Klimmek) had the self-confidence to knock on the door when he got to the top.

    I think there's something very unpleasant about Ulfric's racism. His policy of "standing up for Nords and only Nords" - is weirdly anachronistic for a pseudo-dark-ages/early-medieval setting. He's basically invented a type of racism that shouldn't exist until the early-modern period.
    That's because Ulfric is an intelligent man with very terminal traits of stupid. He wants "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" for all the Nord's attitude for the purposes of a unified country. Kind of like your early modern period nation state. He's smart enough to seize power, and he wisely calculated an important risk which I think was very plausibly, but not probably capable of turning in his favor. He's got the Nord fighting spirit that fights against all odds, a brutal grudge against the Thalmor, and maybe High Elves, or maybe even Elves by extension but my opinion is he's trying to win the war with that attitude. There's nothing good in that, but it can be effective in churning out the numbers for a war.

    Which is a stupid thing for him to do during this time in Skyrim/Tamriel's history. Skyrim has been a loyal part of the Empire for centuries, which is something Stormcloaks point out a lot, and while Skyrim is not racially tolerant, Cyrodiil IS. With many people in Skyrim having both the bad parts AND good parts of the Empire in their lives, suddenly a member of the royal family knocks off good king Torryg in an unfair duel, (Not necessarily murder, but it's very immoral), and enforcing blatantly racist policies which are abusive to people who are native to Skyrim.

    His real racism that's entirely his fault, without even having anything to do with his torture at the hands of the Thalmor, is his treatment against the Forsworn. If you thought Ulfric was bad, wait until you see an entire army of Ulfric. That's the Forsworn. They're like Native Americans/Saxons conquered by the Normans/Norse/Union army. Only it's like every single one of the Forsworn is worse than the most violent Native American Tribes ever were, even ones that wiped out towns, etcetera.

    The Forsworn have revenge and grudges on their mind that are more powerful than Charlie Sheen's sex drive. They murder indiscriminately with terrorist tactics and Assyrian style psychological war fare.

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    Default Re: The Elder Scrolls X : Thalmor or Less

    Two things that stand out to me, are that A) all things point to Torryg having been willing to join Ulfric if Ulfric had asked, and almost certainly if Ulfric had defeated him and spared his life in exchange for joining him, Torryg wouldn't have thought twice. B) Ulfric is an arrogant, self-centered, short sighted jerk, but he's not fundamentally bad. Arrogant in attempting to take on the Empire, which proved itself able to at least stalemate the Thalmor, despite having come back from a marked disadvantage. Self-centered, because he wants to be High King just because he wants the job, not because he thinks he can do it better. Nevermind the black and white morality of 'with us or against us'.

    Short-sighted, for killing a potentially powerful ally, just to prove a point that most of the rest of the province was already behind him on. Not to mention he could have waited just a bit and had the chance to take his grievances up with the Emperor in person, because you know Vittoria Vici would have invited all the Jarls just as a matter of course, if only to gather more power for herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Two things that stand out to me, are that A) all things point to Torryg having been willing to join Ulfric if Ulfric had asked, and almost certainly if Ulfric had defeated him and spared his life in exchange for joining him, Torryg wouldn't have thought twice. B) Ulfric is an arrogant, self-centered, short sighted jerk, but he's not fundamentally bad. Arrogant in attempting to take on the Empire, which proved itself able to at least stalemate the Thalmor, despite having come back from a marked disadvantage. Self-centered, because he wants to be High King just because he wants the job, not because he thinks he can do it better. Nevermind the black and white morality of 'with us or against us'.

    Short-sighted, for killing a potentially powerful ally, just to prove a point that most of the rest of the province was already behind him on. Not to mention he could have waited just a bit and had the chance to take his grievances up with the Emperor in person, because you know Vittoria Vici would have invited all the Jarls just as a matter of course, if only to gather more power for herself.
    He's a more competent Joffrey Lannister, without the pure evil behind the character, if he was a Nord, and a lot smarter.

    Still a lot of stupid things behind him, yet he's still IMHO a carrier of intelligence that gets entirely wasted behind the fact that he indulges in his character flaws instead of what could have made him great.

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