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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    There are lots of crappy templates and crappy PrCs. This doesn't mean you should start handing out Time Stop to them for free.
    But it's Time Dragons we're speaking about
    Control over time is very important thing to them
    Even their hatchlings have Time Stop at will (with 2d4 rounds cooldown)
    It's like deny Fire Immunity to Dragon Disciple (Red), because "So many monsters have fire-based attacks! And don't forget about the environmental hazards too! It's overpowered!"
    Anyway, you will get it no earlier than 15 ECL - not all games go that far

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    But it's Time Dragons we're speaking about
    Control over time is very important thing to them
    Even their hatchlings have Time Stop at will (with 2d4 rounds cooldown)
    It's like deny Fire Immunity to Dragon Disciple (Red), because "So many monsters have fire-based attacks! And don't forget about the environmental hazards too! It's overpowered!"
    Anyway, you will get it no earlier than 15 ECL - not all games go that far
    Red Dragon Disciples get Fire Immunity because the Half-Dragon Template says they do. Time Dragon Disciples get Time Stop because...you really, really want them to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkstar View Post
    Okay. I laughed at this.
    Seriously, though, the IT'S CALLED THE BARD DON'T QUESTION IT isn't actually as bad as people think it is. Some of their IT'S CALLED BARDIC MUSIC DON'T QUESTION IT are actually pretty powerful, especially if you play with some of the silly RAW but even if you don't.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Bard is pretty damn shiny compared to a lot of the rubbish out there. Like, half the other core classes.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Seriously, though, the IT'S CALLED THE BARD DON'T QUESTION IT isn't actually as bad as people think it is. Some of their IT'S CALLED BARDIC MUSIC DON'T QUESTION IT are actually pretty powerful, especially if you play with some of the silly RAW but even if you don't.
    Honestly, yes. The only three problems are getting the ridiculous PERFORM (ORATORY) bonuses (or having your DM nerf the DCs), the fact that you don't matter much after about level 12 until level 20, and of course the silly scaling of the PERFORM (ORATORY) DCs.

    Quickening a BARDIC MUSIC ABILITY for free every round is way more powerful than people admit, and since there's no saving throw for many of the BARDIC MUSIC ABILITIES and they don't offer spell resistance, boss fights become pretty easy when the boss can't move and is constantly slowed.

    Of course I guess a fourth problem would be how useless BARDIC MUSIC ABILITIES become when you can't see your target.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    The trouble is that BARDIC MUSIC ABILITY is so unrealistic since we know that PERFORM (ORATORY) improves with repetition. The rules just don't support this though.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    At least they made good on the ability to attract extraplanar attention with a good enough PERFORM check

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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Red Dragon Disciples get Fire Immunity because the Half-Dragon Template says they do. Time Dragon Disciples get Time Stop because...you really, really want them to?
    Just like Werewolf is just a specific case of Lycanthrope template, Red Half-Dragon is just a specific case of Half-Dragon template
    Just like text of Lycanthrope template don't describe every possible Animal, Half-Dragon template don't least every True Dragon; - beyond the fluff and appearance they all differ in only 2 points: 1) Breath Weapon or special ability, 2) Immunity or other special ability (special abilities - because not every True Dragon have Breath Weapon or specific Immunity)
    What's we see in case of Time Dragon?
    It have two Breath Weapons: line of ravaging time, and cone of time expulsion
    By using Metallic Half-Dragons example, "select damage over incapacitation", thus line of ravaging time
    Now we need to select "Immunity or other special ability". There is a bit of problem - Time Dragon don't have any (specific) strait Immunities, so it should be "special ability"
    What's to select?
    Time Control? But it's only 5 turns/day, and Half-Dragon's "other special ability" is always something constant - be it Water Breathing or Burrow
    Damage Reduction - it's actually last all day long, but Time Dragons are not the only specie of Dragons who have it - every possible Dragon have DR at some point, but Half-Dragons never get it
    Time Stop at will (2d4 round cooldown)...
    Yes, Half-Dragons usually don't get (Sp) abilities, but look at it like this: Immunity supposed to protect Half-Dragons against their one Breath Weapon, and what is defense against the Time?..

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Just like Werewolf is just a specific case of Lycanthrope template, Red Half-Dragon is just a specific case of Half-Dragon template
    And just like Lycanthrope, Half-Dragon gives guidelines for what the parent dragon gives you. Those things are: a very specific breath weapon, and one immunity from its parent. Lung Dragons are specifically called out as being different, so that doesn't extend to Time Dragons. In fact, the Draconomicon tables have a bunch of half-dragons getting no special ability or immunity whatsoever and this is a much stronger precedent than your wishful thinking.

    You are arguing that Time Stop is in line with the power of an immunity, but besides the fact that isn't true, it doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2015-05-28 at 09:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    All the Physical primary classes in the PHB

    Fighter: You swing a metal stick.... and that's it, moving along!

    Knight: Cool, you're a tank!.... provided the enemy meets all these specific requirements. Oh well, least you can still do the key job of a Fighter, by wielding a Greatsword and with some crowd control.

    CW Samurai: Take what few good things the OA Samurai had, destroy that, and make a class that falls easier than even Paladin's being trolled into falling.. But hey, SAM 1/ Ronin 10! >:D

    Hexblade: Great ideas, that still fell short of making a full fledged Dark Knight. Oh well, least we have Duskblade for that.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    And just like Lycanthrope, Half-Dragon gives guidelines for what the parent dragon gives you. Those things are: a very specific breath weapon
    What's you mean by "very specific"?
    "(see table)"?
    What's about the Dragon species which are not in the table?
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    and one immunity from its parent.
    Technically, it doesn't say "one"
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Lung Dragons are specifically called out as being different
    What's about the Planar, Epic, Ferrous Dragons? Steel Dragon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    In fact, the Draconomicon tables have a bunch of half-dragons getting no special ability or immunity whatsoever and this is a much stronger precedent than your wishful thinking.
    It's like they turned inside out to make already questionable template as unattractive as possible!
    It Broke My Heart!

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    What's about the Planar, Epic, Ferrous Dragons? Steel Dragon?
    What about them? The template says "The lung dragons, are a special case. Many either don't have breath weapons or lack immunities (or both), so half-dragons descended from these parents gain special attacks and special qualities as noted on the Lung Half-Dragons table below."

    No mention is made of Planar, Epic, Ferrous, or Steel half-dragons as being exceptional in the way you want them to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    No mention is made of Planar, Epic, Ferrous, or Steel half-dragons as being exceptional in the way you want them to be.
    Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon listed numerous variants of Half-Dragon for non-Core Dragons.
    (And magazines listed Half-Dragon variants for almost all Dragons in their articles)
    Planar Dragons
    Draconomicon:
    Chaos Dragon is immune to compulsion; Half-Dragon - to Confusion (misheard?)
    Radiant Dragon is immune to light effects; Half-Dragon gets nothing
    Tarterian Dragon have no innate immunity (but three special qualities); Half-Dragon gets nothing
    Dragon #321:
    Arboreal Dragon is immune to Acid, Sonic, and Enchantment; Half-Dragon gets only resistance to Acid and Sonic 20
    Beast Dragon is immune to Cold and Electricity; Half-Dragon gets only resistance to Cold and Electricity 20

    Ferrous (Dr#356): Iron Dragon have Breath Weapon which deal half-Electricity/half-Fire damage; Half-Dragon's BW deal only Electricity damage

    Steel Dragon is immune to Acid; Half-Dragon gets only +10 against Poison

    Epic Dragons
    Force Dragon is immune to Force; Half-Dragon gets nothing
    Prismatic Dragon have Prismatic Spray as BW; Half-Dragon have Searing Light as BW
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2015-05-28 at 11:33 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Specific overrides general, as always. You're more than welcome to homebrew a Time Half-Dragon that gets as much time control as you want. Frankly, more of these "half-dragon gets nothing from parent" examples only serve to strike down your argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    There is a lot but I will focus on a few.

    1.Rage mage
    Oh, it could have been sweet. But it being a half-progression PRC just makes it a little less than helpful.

    2.Bard
    It's cool, but I really would have appreciated full spell casting. It being that master of none type of class isn't a good thing at all. Especially seeing classes like the beguiler and even factotum (which got ALL skills and all wiz/sorc spells (even though they can only cast an extremely limited number per day)
    I think it's perfect in 5e though.

    3.Assasin.
    It has useful spells, but I think it could have been condensed into a 5 level class. That would have made it SICK. And maybe letting up on the pre-requisites.

    4.Erudite.
    Probably one of my favorite classes. The problem I have is the lack of clarity with the Unique powers per day.
    If it could have been 1 per level that would have been perfect.

    5.Core melee classes
    obviously. They all needed martial maneuvers. We just didn't know until they came out with them.

    6. Paladin
    I hate the paladin. At best, it should have been a variant class for cleric. more trouble than it's worth.

    7.wizard
    The spell book mechanic I don't care for. It would have been cool if they just had the opportunity to learn from scrolls, but didn't actually need a spell book or forgot all there spells every day. Spellbooks then simply become a vehicle of transferring knowledge between them. Just as a professor can learn a formula, but uses a math book to help spread the information.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by DMVerdandi View Post
    7.wizard
    The spell book mechanic I don't care for. It would have been cool if they just had the opportunity to learn from scrolls, but didn't actually need a spell book or forgot all there spells every day. Spellbooks then simply become a vehicle of transferring knowledge between them. Just as a professor can learn a formula, but uses a math book to help spread the information.
    You might be interested in the Easy Bake Wizard, and specifically the Eidetic Wizard ACF.
    Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-28 at 10:10 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Every martial class ever to come to be, including the ToB/PoW ones. I want decent fighting ability without casting a spell to do it, is that so hard? I actually feel less dirty using a truenamer to do it because using a maneuver feels more like casting a spell than using an utterance (even though an utterance is literally a spell-like ability). Maybe it's because I'm actually rolling to use the utterance instead of putting my utterances in slots and spending them and recovering them after enough rest? I dunno, but seriously, c'mon, guys!
    Actually makeovers don't need rest to be recovered. One instance specifically needs to have had a standard action to be used in order to get them back.
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Renen View Post
    Actually makeovers don't need rest to be recovered. One instance specifically needs to have had a standard action to be used in order to get them back.
    ^Misses the point. The recharge action is an example of "enough rest" to Jormengand.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyYanmega View Post
    Ever found a class that just didn't do what you wanted it to do, for whatever reason? This thread is so you can pour out your heartbreak and relate to others.

    My heartbreak was Monk, of course. So many cool options, no empty levels... But it SUCKS! If only monks got pounce, or had a way of obtaining pounce through a prestige class!
    Paladin. I like the idea of being a good guy. I hate the way the code of conduct was implemented.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Anachronity View Post
    The pyromancer from Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's such a cool class, but who the guulvorg is supposed to take it???

    8 ranks of concentration and a power point reserve as requirements, but the class punishes casters for taking it worse than a strict no-nonsense father figure punishes his son for ruining his stereo system (I'm sorry, dad!)

    The easiest entry is rogue or factotum, but at 2+int skillpoints per level you're freezing your skills by doing so. Its abilities scale completely independently of any other class, so I'm left to assume it was intended for particularly high-level xeph commoners who want to get their zen on... and have set fire to a structure of any size just to watch it burn...


    Even worse is the cryokineticist from frostburn. This time they made sure that you had to have manifester levels by throwing in a 2nd-level power as a requirement. As a reward for the harsher requirement you get a copy/pasted class with limited uses per day of powers that don't even scale with your level anymore! The only redeeming factor is your bizarre ability to create an unlimited number of ice walls at 9th level, which would be way more fun than just killing people with fire like the pyro does at 9th.
    I was totally hoping cryokineticist was going to be at least as cool as pyro, but then that entry requirement quickly kicked that hope in the balls until it died. Pyrokineticist is for ex-monks. They have the concentration ranks, and they have no ability to continue being monks once they fall off the enlightened path. So Spellfire Wielder and Pyrokineticist are their best bets for advancing Something. In the case of spellfire wielder they can become potent anti-magic jerks, because evasion, high monk saves, draining magic items of their enemies to fuel their powers. With pyrokineticist they have to fall to a chaotic alignment, but by the time they're setting fire to a structure to watch it burn, that's probably already the case.

    Sure, the monk doesn't have a full bab, and neither do the other two classes, but with monk based grappling the spellfire channeler (not wielder, I think that's the name of the feat) can disarm opponents or rub up against them to drain their magic items, while sucking down some levels of pyro will give them a much needed offense for the times when they have no magic juice to spray all over their enemies in contempt. Both classes offer fire (psychic fire, or super arcane fire repsectively). And if the monk started out as a psionic race (such as a half giant) they already meet most of the requirements of pyro by 5. If they still aren't chaotic by then, they can fall off the monk path with spellfire channeler levels and then jump into pyro whenever they reach chaotic (burning **** down with spellfire along the way should help that).

    Anyway...in response to Forrestfire about Complete Psionic: Don't forget the illumine blade. That class is amazing for killing undead, and always super helpful for even just the capstone: 1/day when you hit 0 hp, you heal 5d8+5 hp instantly. It's what kept my soulknife/illumine blade/soulbow alive multiple times across a long campaign. Hell, that and refreshing death ward for expending psionic focus was great. Mmmmmmm, basically permanent death ward. Even if it got dispelled, it was up again next round.

    I think I'll go with complete psionic as being the thing that broke my heart in 3.5. It was basically less than a handful of useful things and a lot of bad filler shoved into a book and published at first read. And I bought it. Oh, I bought it immediately, because wizards had such a habit of basically ignoring psionics for 3.0/3.5 for so long that by the time it came out I wanted Anything that was an official psionics book. The good things from that book could have been put up as mind's eye articles, but I suppose the best part about that book was that it was a published book and thus legitimate in the eyes of the person who was gming that campaign I was playing a soulknife in. If they had been mind's eye article classes, they would have been rejected out of hand.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: 3.5 Classes that Broke Your Heart

    samurai ,but not for mechanical reasons its just that the whole katana is a masterwork bastard sword pisses me off .and perpetuates the myth of the katana being the best weapon ever .

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