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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    I think I may have missed that thread. Thanks for the head's up.


    Magic Origins is the summer expansion. MM2 fills the Commander/Planechase/etc. space.



    Nope. Among the players in tournaments that decide what Wizards thinks of the metagame, Tarmogoyf's price is a non-factor. And while Tarmogoyf is a great card, it is not the best card for all possible decks. If you're attacking with creatures and running Green, Tarmogoyf is pretty good. If you're trying to combo out, not running green, or are more reliant on synergy than size, Tarmogoyf is not particularly good. If everyone had a Tarmogoyf, I would imagine we would see less Tarmogoyf-based decks, as people would get over the myth that Tarmogoyf is the best card ever and stop trying to cram him into absolutely everything.

    Also, what? Who thinks MM2 sucks at all? The set's pretty fantastic from what I've seen.
    I say MM2 sucks and the heaps of MM2 packs in the trash at my LGS say it sucks.
    To clarify, MM2 is like Coldsnap (Coldsnap being my standard for sets whose packs are only opened for a very few rares) in that it has several chase rares and a lot of chaff practically no one needs.

    And Goyf was just the example. You'll note I explained further that I was considering all the Modern staples I've heard complaints about there being too few of.

    Also, my concern is that no, Goyf isn't the best card. But if there were enough of him to go around every deck might turn into a Goyf deck. This is what I meant by the format going stale, eg the reason WotC cited for banning Jace 2.0 and Stoneforge way back when.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    [Snip]
    Price has nothing to do with ban decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    Would you say Dark Depths + Pandemonium is a good combo?
    That's not a combo, it's a way to win with Dark Depths a turn earlier and not have to worry about creature removal. Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage is a combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    I say MM2 sucks and the heaps of MM2 packs in the trash at my LGS say it sucks.
    To clarify, MM2 is like Coldsnap (Coldsnap being my standard for sets whose packs are only opened for a very few rares) in that it has several chase rares and a lot of chaff practically no one needs.
    Spoken like someone who hasn't drafted it.

    Also, my concern is that no, Goyf isn't the best card. But if there were enough of him to go around every deck might turn into a Goyf deck. This is what I meant by the format going stale, eg the reason WotC cited for banning Jace 2.0 and Stoneforge way back when.
    Just three weeks ago I took a Gruul deck to a Modern $1K that had no Goyfs in it. Admittedly I didn't do very well, but the lack of Goyfs had nothing to do with that.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    My primary complaint about MM2 is that they could have reprinted a few things in the rare slot that aren't exactly Modern staples, but whose price has gone up a fair amount due to casual and EDH, like dragon broodmother. I mean, a lot of rares they put in the set are truly trash, and most of the commons and uncommons are dirt cheap as well.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Apparently I had two Cunning Plan decks, so I gave my Izzet-Jeskai fusion a rebuild:



    Most of the pricier spells are gone, more of the ones that are left are eligible for Izzet Guildmage or Isochron Scepter (wish I had more of them). I also added two Monastery Swiftspears, which I can't link to because Gatherer is down. In any case, I think this is a much better setup.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    So this is what I'm running for modern at the moment.

    http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/31-05-15-sultai-control/

    It is pretty much a copy of the sultai control list running around running a GQ instead of a coloured land. My reasoning for this is I am struggling with Jund/Grixis manlands like Tarpit/Raging cause all my removal is sorcery or none land based. I sometimes side out a land so siding it out isn't the end of the world either.

    Also anyone got any experience with Vintage? I'm trying to design a non-powered but still powerful vintage deck using either BUG colours or Junk and survival of the fittest to run a toolbox of dudes.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Lea Plath View Post
    It is pretty much a copy of the sultai control list running around running a GQ instead of a coloured land. My reasoning for this is I am struggling with Jund/Grixis manlands like Tarpit/Raging cause all my removal is sorcery or none land based. I sometimes side out a land so siding it out isn't the end of the world either.
    Would you be better of running Tectonic Edge? It doesn't put you behind on land when you use it or do they have the man lands active before they have 4 lands? (something they would need a mana dork out to do)
    Last edited by Androgeus; 2015-06-24 at 01:26 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    Apparently I had two Cunning Plan decks, so I gave my Izzet-Jeskai fusion a rebuild:
    -snip-
    You've got some cool stuff going on here, but I think I can help improve it

    First, run 60 cards. Anything more is sub-optimal. Just do it.

    Second,your deck kinda has an identity crisis. Running bounce spells, cheap prowess creatures, and a low land count all lend to an aggressive plan, but you also have value engines in sceptre and wand, as well as big haymaker creatures and replicate spells, all of which lean towards a controlling strategy. Trying to fit both plans in will make your deck suffer in application.

    Either way, 17 lands is too few. I run 17 lands in my blue/red legacy deck, but it can comfortably win with only 2 lands, and it runs 12 one-mana draw spells to make sure I hit my land drops on time. For a casual deck, 20-21 is good for aggressive decks, 24-25 is good for control decks.

    Based on what you have already, there are a few ways you can take this deck:

    1- Spellslinger Tempo
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    Run 12-16 creatures max, preferably in the 1-3 mana range. Creatures that generate value based on spells like guttersnipe, young pyromancer, snapcaster mage are all excellent, as well as cheap prowess creatures (or delver of secrets). Run lots and lots of removal- burn spells are always good since they can kill early blockers or do direct damage. You can also run bounce spells like vapor snag to clear away blockers that are too big to burn. I also really like flashback cards (esp. think twice) in this kind of deck since they trigger all of your value creatures twice. If you run any counterspells, run cheap ones like negate or mana leak (don't run essence scatter if you have good removal). See modern or legacy Delver decks for competitive examples


    2- firey control
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    higher land count. This is the best deck for isochron scepter. Run tons of value spells and a few haymakers to finish the game. Run creatures that filter your deck like Omenspeaker and Augur of bolas. Modal cards are good here like izzet charm (for options) or mizzium mortars (good early, better late). For win conditions, try and run things that are hard to kill or generate card advantage. I like Keranos, Isochron scepter + burn spells, and runechanter's pike. For a competitive example, see modern Splinter Twin decks.


    3- Kiln-Fiend Combo.
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    Try and kill you opponent on turn 4. Run Kiln fiend, wee-draconauts, Niv-magus cyclops, niv-magus elemental, monastery swiftspear (probably 14 creatures total). Run artful dodge, distortion strike, vapor snag, gitaxian probe, mutagenic growth, mizzium skin, titan's strength, assualt strobe. Basically you want to clear away any blockers your opponent has and pump your creatures for huge amounts and one-shot your opponent. Kiln Fiend + assualt strobe + titan's strengthdeals 20 damage on turn 3. Depending on how casual your playgroup is, people may hate you for this. See pauper and Modern Kiln Fiend decks for semi-competitive examples.


    I'll edit this later today and link all the cards I mentioned, as well as link some tappedout example decks.

    You've got some fantastic stuff there already, it just needs to be focused and cleaned up a bit.


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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg



    Putting in an extra Island and two Mountains gets me to 20 land. I've dropped the wand, Niv-Mizzet (*sniff*), the twins, the aerialists and Vacuumelt and added another Lotus Djinn, getting me to 60 cards with nothing costing more than 4 and no spells over 2 (so the scepter and guildmage work on everything). Hopefully that should work.
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    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    Would you be better of running Tectonic Edge? It doesn't put you behind on land when you use it or do they have the man lands active before they have 4 lands? (something they would need a mana dork out to do)
    Generally it will be a Strip Mine anyway and I want to hold up mana and play more aggressively. Having mana for Cryptic and GQ is big, as is just having an early way to pop it and make goyf bigger/tasigur cheaper.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post


    Putting in an extra Island and two Mountains gets me to 20 land. I've dropped the wand, Niv-Mizzet (*sniff*), the twins, the aerialists and Vacuumelt and added another Lotus Djinn, getting me to 60 cards with nothing costing more than 4 and no spells over 2 (so the scepter and guildmage work on everything). Hopefully that should work.
    That's a great start, but I still think you have too many creatures. I'd drop it down to 14ish creatures. 4 Guidlmages and 4 scepters give you a pretty nice value engine, so I'd focus on finding those and trying to ride them to victory.

    Brainstorm is an INSANELY powerful card IF you are running 10+ fetchlands, and pretty mediocre if you arent.

    This is a rough draft. It needs some work, since pretty much everything in the deck costs 2 mana, but this is kinda what I'd start with.

    EDIT: This is an example of a (mostly) competitive blue/red aggressive deck. The cards will be different (old formats and such), but the synergy aspect is pretty universal across izzet decks.
    Last edited by Tesla_pasta; 2015-06-25 at 01:05 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post


    Putting in an extra Island and two Mountains gets me to 20 land. I've dropped the wand, Niv-Mizzet (*sniff*), the twins, the aerialists and Vacuumelt and added another Lotus Djinn, getting me to 60 cards with nothing costing more than 4 and no spells over 2 (so the scepter and guildmage work on everything). Hopefully that should work.
    What format are you building for? Because if it's Modern, Brainstorm isn't legal.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    What format are you building for? Because if it's Modern, Brainstorm isn't legal.
    That's weird. Everything else from that deck is. I'll drop it and get the fourth lotus djinn.

    Should I drop two of each basic land and put in four evolving wilds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Lea Plath View Post
    Generally it will be a Strip Mine anyway and I want to hold up mana and play more aggressively. Having mana for Cryptic and GQ is big, as is just having an early way to pop it and make goyf bigger/tasigur cheaper.
    Strip mine? Isn't this for modern? other than that I can see your reasoning for GQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    That's weird. Everything else from that deck is. I'll drop it and get the fourth lotus djinn.
    New frame =/= modern legal, there's actually quite a bit of the cunning deck that doesn't seem modern legal.
    Last edited by Androgeus; 2015-06-25 at 06:59 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    New frame =/= modern legal, there's actually quite a bit of the cunning deck that doesn't seem modern legal.
    Brainstorm is actually from Izzet vs Golgari, not Cunning Plan. I've checked Gatherer and everything else seems fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Magic Origins thoughts:

    Archangel of Tithes + vigilance = win.

    Hallowed Moonlight = Best. Tech. Ever.

    Looks like Modern will be getting its very own Opalescence, minus the ability to deal damage to target judge.

    Hello Modern-legal, less-comboable Timetwister. How are you doing today?

    My Melek commander deck needs Jace's Sanctum SO. BADLY.

    Painter's Servant Combo is coming to Modern... A heavily-nerfed version, at least.

    Spell Mastery for Demonic Tutor. I like.

    Demonic Pact + bounce = win.

    DEM EFFICIENT BLACK FATTIES.

    Reave Soul = this comic in action.

    Magmatic Insight and Molten Vortex are such great cards for so many decks (mostly mono-red ones) it's crazy.

    Animist's Awakening = HOLY RAMP, BATMAN.

    Yay, green pseudo-Polymorph effect.

    A new flavor text referencing Jaya Ballard? I thought this day would never come.

    And lastly, the enemy-colored painlands are coming back to Standard. Interesting.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Spell Mastery for Demonic Tutor. I like.
    Oh, it's such much more fun than that. I love this card so much.

    With Spell Mastery:
    It's Demonic Tutor (pay 5, get 3 back, net cost of 2) or
    It's Diabolic Tutor + Dark Ritual (net cost of 5, same effects)

    It fakes being 3 different cards (at least two of which are likely never going to see a reprint), does an effect that has been done before but with a different focus (typically, at least in the games I play, you play a tutor, go and grab something big and awesome, and plan to cast it next turn. With this you're pulled to go and grab something small and effective and immediately play it, kind of a 'Pay 5, put target 3 drop from your deck into play'). It's two effects are wildly different and yet incredibly synergistic.

    It's also completely playable without Spell Mastery (1 cost more Diabolic Tutor which, while not a great card, is definitely playable).

    I love this card so much. Such an incredible bit of design, packaged in a way that doesn't draw a huge amount of attention to itself.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Can guttersnipe damage be redirected to planeswalkers?
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Duck999 View Post
    Can guttersnipe damage be redirected to planeswalkers?
    Absolutely. Any time you could deal damage to a player, you can deal it to a planeswalker that player controls instead.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    Absolutely. Any time you could deal damage to a player, you can deal it to a planeswalker that player controls instead.
    This is correct, but it does not apply to Guttersnipe. Each opponent is different than target player, and damage that would be dealt to each opponent cannot be redirected to a planeswalker.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ruby34 View Post
    This is correct, but it does not apply to Guttersnipe. Each opponent is different than target player, and damage that would be dealt to each opponent cannot be redirected to a planeswalker.
    This is incorrect. When you choose to do something like bolt a planeswalker, that's merely shorthand for targeting a player with Lightning Bolt and choosing to redirect 3 damage to a planeswalker they control. It's why you can't bolt the planewalker of a player who has an Ivory Mask.

    The relevant rule is this:
    If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker that opponent controls instead.
    You are able to redirect damage from Earthquake from an opponent to that opponent's planeswalker. You cannot redirect loss of life, but any source of noncombat damage to an opponent, regardless of the targeting, can be redirected to a planeswalker, no ifs, ands, or buts. Guttersnipe is no exception.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    This is incorrect. When you choose to do something like bolt a planeswalker, that's merely shorthand for targeting a player with Lightning Bolt and choosing to redirect 3 damage to a planeswalker they control. It's why you can't bolt the planewalker of a player who has an Ivory Mask.

    The relevant rule is this:


    You are able to redirect damage from Earthquake from an opponent to that opponent's planeswalker. You cannot redirect loss of life, but any source of noncombat damage to an opponent, regardless of the targeting, can be redirected to a planeswalker, no ifs, ands, or buts. Guttersnipe is no exception.
    I stand corrected. I was sure it had to actually target to be redirected.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    In a strictly WUB deck, what ways are there to cast G or R spells other than the North Star from Legends?
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Occasional Sage View Post
    In a strictly WUB deck, what ways are there to cast G or R spells other than the North Star from Legends?
    Define "strictly." Are effects that produce G and R mana out? Effects that can produce mana of any color?
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Define "strictly." Are effects that produce G and R mana out? Effects that can produce mana of any color?
    erm, never mind. Discovered a fundamental rules misunderstanding.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    This is a bizarre request.

    I've been rewatching Yugioh recently, and was wondering whether there's any way to do something similar to Pegasus's 'Toon' deck in Magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    This is a bizarre request.

    I've been rewatching Yugioh recently, and was wondering whether there's any way to do something similar to Pegasus's 'Toon' deck in Magic.
    Assuming you mean the version of it from the first arc (as opposed to later when it gets nerfed to match the actual cards more closely), its defining feature is having monsters that can't be destroyed in battle. Or, in Magic terms, creatures that either don't take damage in combat or aren't killed by combat damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    This is a bizarre request.

    I've been rewatching Yugioh recently, and was wondering whether there's any way to do something similar to Pegasus's 'Toon' deck in Magic.
    Brief summary of Pegasus's deck, or at least the parts you want to replicate? My memory is hazy, and the actual Yugioh TCG cards are often different than they are in the anime. Toon cards in the TCG attack opponent directly with devastatingly high power for that effect (usually, such creatures have at most 300 attack), but cost 500 life to attack with each. From my vague memories, that's definitely not what his deck did. I think the toons were just powerful and really difficult to kill? I really can't remember.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Assuming you mean the version of it from the first arc (as opposed to later when it gets nerfed to match the actual cards more closely), its defining feature is having monsters that can't be destroyed in battle. Or, in Magic terms, creatures that either don't take damage in combat or aren't killed by combat damage.
    If this is true, then Dolmen Gate is basically your Toon World analogue.
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    Aerial Volley = counter target Lingering Souls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

    So, I've gone and got myself art for a custom playmat <3 Check it out

    Also, any suggestions of staples to pick up for standard post rotation? Looking at playing a midrange-control deck in standard now legacy and modern are finished.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lea Plath View Post
    So, I've gone and got myself art for a custom playmat <3 Check it out
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