What do you want from melee?

[danzibr]

Personally, I'm quite a fan of ToB/PoW. I thought most were.

In another thread I saw Jormengand and Chronos voiced their distaste for ToB/PoW. I can see how Sword Magic is an unsatisfactory ``fix'' for melee. I mean, it's like magic.

So in 3.5 (or 3.0 or PF), what would make melee satisfactory? More options like trip and bullrush? Big static bonuses? Other abilities which make up for their shortcomings?

[ngilop]

Personally, I'm quite a fan of ToB/PoW. I thought most were.

In another thread I saw Jormengand and Chronos voiced their distaste for ToB/PoW. I can see how Sword Magic is an unsatisfactory ``fix'' for melee. I mean, it's like magic.

So in 3.5 (or 3.0 or PF), what would make melee satisfactory? More options like trip and bullrush? Big static bonuses? Other abilities which make up for their shortcomings?

For me what I expect form melee is summed up in Zeigander's thread (I had one thati posted a few weeks/months earlier than ziegander's but I got it deleted due to the massive amount of hate and insults that I got for literally saying the same exact thing Zeigander said)

Basically it falls down into that melee is beholden to the real world limitations and such. while magical classes do not have that. Which in a fantasy setting makes absolutely no sense to me.

what reall sucks is other than AC and HP, what can a melee ever effect? Melee has no way to cause any status condition, no way to target a save, no way toreally do much other than roll dat d20 and then dadamage!.

add in some versatility in what a melee can do and I'll behappy.

Make it so a melee is actually heroic and legendary ( on par with Heracles, indrajit Beowulf etc etc) and i'll make you CHicken cordon bleu!

[squiggit]

What I want from melee is nonlinear growth at high levels in an at-will, easily accessible fashion.

that is to say. A level one wizard can put someone to sleep and fire lasers. A level 20 wizard can reshape reality.

A level one fighter can hit someone with a sword. A level 20 fighter can hit someone REALLY HARD ... but doesn't actually gain any real new capabilities.

Would be really cool if a fighter could do crazy heroic epic things that aren't just doing lots of damage and having lots of HP.

Basically it falls down into that melee is beholden to the real world limitations and such.

But only sometimes. I mean there's nothing realistic about being able to punch out an elephant or wrestle whales or skydive with no parachute and walk away no worse for wear or swim in lava or take three dozen gunshot wounds to the face. That's the worst part. That my fighter can do all of those things, but still has his combat efficacy crippled if an enemy is ten feet away or still has to waddle around in heavy armor.

[AvatarVecna]

I want a system for dealing status effect that isn't a complete pain to work with.

I want tactical maneuvers for both solo and group combat that couldn't be accomplished by lesser warriors.

I want feats that are good enough to be worth taking that don't have a laundry list of awful prereqs.

I want a fighter who's so awesome, powerful, and fun to play that I can look at the full casters who can grant more 6 wishes every day and say "eh, I'm good with what I've got."

To be clear: I don't want a martial characters that's totally equal to a Wizard 20, because that's ridiculous. Hell, I think full casters should be turned way down. But I want a martial character that doesn't regularly get outclassed in melee combat by a squishy wizard. Because that's a sad life to live.

[AmberVael]

Make it so a melee is actually heroic and legendary ( on par with Heracles, indrajit Beowulf etc etc) and i'll make you CHicken cordon bleu!

I don't think Indrajit is a good example here. I mean for one, he doesn't do melee at all, the bow was his weapon of choice. But more importantly, Indrajit is a crazy supernatural figure- I mean, the guy was literally a sorcerer, using his magic for illusions and invisibility. Plus, the whole Astra thing that Indian heroes having going on... there's a place for capabilities that are beyond the norm for legendary fighters, but Astras really don't fit that category- they're divine supernatural powers, pretty much just an odd form of magic (like magic of incarnum or binding in D&D).

I'd say Beowulf is the best example here. We're talking about a guy who ripped off the arm of a cannibalistic monster with the strength of his hand ('mighty handgrip' will be a phrase that sticks in my mind forever), a guy who fought monsters at the bottom of the sea for a day as part of a competition. These are clearly beyond human capabilities, but there's no attribution to supernatural powers, the idea is that Beowulf is just that much of a badass.


Personally I do like ToB / PoW, but some people have trouble with the system itself, which I can understand to an extent. Its a sound mechanical system, but in terms of fluff it can get a bit strange, and some people can't divorce their view of it from magic due to its obvious similarities to the magic system. I think these people would probably be more satisfied with an at will system, perhaps even something more in line with the Invocation system- getting abilities and options that can be used more freely and don't mysteriously run out, that don't need preparation or swapping out. Once you know it its yours to use whenever the situation is appropriate. There's probably room for some amount of limited use (representing fatigue or the like), but not to the amount that ToB uses.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd say Beowulf is the best example here. We're talking about a guy who ripped off the arm of a cannibalistic monster with the strength of his hand ('mighty handgrip' will be a phrase that sticks in my mind forever), a guy who fought monsters at the bottom of the sea for several weeks as part of a competition. These are clearly beyond human capabilities, but there's no attribution to supernatural powers, the idea is that Beowulf is just that much of a badass.

Agreed. Beowulf and Hercules are both good examples. They do lots of amazing stuff just through pure muscle (and some clever thinking, but that's not something that needs mechanical representation beyond having an Intelligence greater than six). The important question is, then, how do we do that? Do we just give them class features that make all of their combat numbers bigger? It would certainly solve the combat-effectiveness problem, at least in part, but it doesn't make them much more versatile and doesn't make them any more interesting to play.

Personally I do like ToB / PoW, but some people have trouble with the system itself, which I can understand to an extent. Its a sound mechanical system, but in terms of fluff it can get a bit strange, and some people can't divorce their view of it from magic due to its obvious similarities to the magic system. I think these people would probably be more satisfied with an at will system, perhaps even something more in line with the Invocation system- getting abilities and options that can be used more freely and don't mysteriously run out, that don't need preparation or swapping out. Once you know it its yours to use whenever the situation is appropriate. There's probably room for some amount of limited use (representing fatigue or the like), but not to the amount that ToB uses.

Hm. I like this idea. Invocations is a good comparison, but that's too magical of a name. Maybe we could call them deeds? Stunts? Exploits?

Wait, I've got it! We'll call them feats!

Back to being serious, this is a really good idea. Come up with about 60 or so specific actions (e.g. stun an opponent with a single attack, gain a large bonus to your next combat maneuver check), divide them into four categories like warlock invocations, name them... something. I don't know. I'll call them Heroic Abilities for now. Set use limits on some of them (e.g. you can only stun someone you haven't stunned in the last five rounds) while leave the others at-will. Provide action types to some (e.g. bonus to next combat maneuver check as a swift action). Create a class, d12 HD, full BAB, good fort/will (or all good saves), 4+Int skills, give them combat feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, and every fourth level after, let them choose a Heroic Ability at every odd level, and fill in the remaining levels (6/10/14/18) with something akin to armor/weapon training from the PF fighter. The trickiest part would be coming up with enough Heroic Abilities.

[OldTrees1]

What do I want from melee?

I have a preference for passive/triggered over activated/limited and a preference for qualitative over quantitative improvements. These preferences are why I dislike the activated/limited abilities of ToB but like Knockback and Improved Trip. (However I recognize that some have the opposite preferences and they should also have character options. Go ToB.)

Mobility:
A melee warrior should have more than 1 means of moving around the battlefield in a meaningful way. A way is meaningful if it allows the warrior to reach their target. Due to the increasingly difficult battlefields as characters level, a melee warrior should also gain more forms of mobility and improve old forms while they level. Furthermore, a warrior class should have even more options so individual warriors can choose the options that fit their character thematically.

If a Wizard is floating in a vacuum above an abyss while shooting a transdimentional ray though a slotted door, a warrior should be able to close that distance through all 4 obstacles.


Offense and Defense also need to scale qualitatively in addition to quantitative scaling. Higher AC and HP mean nothing vs save or loses. Eventually the warrior should have defenses against illusions, mental effects, death effects, and similar SoLs. Likewise the warrior's variety of offense should likewise diversify so that they are not left taking 5 turns to down a 1 turn minion.


Finally, since action economy is a thing, warriors need ways to keep up in this area as well.

[Pluto!]

I would want combat to alter in two ways:
1. Swift/Immediate actions for all melee characters. I think every melee class should have decisions to make that don't interfere with moving and actually combatting enemies.
2. All characters should be able to target multiple defenses and inflict non-damage status effects.


And, as probably everyone agrees, constant and capable mobility for all (unless their shtick is not moving, and if that's the case, they should get a lot to compensate).

I have ideas about how this should be generalized and implemented, but honestly, as long as these are all there in some form (as they already are in ToB and PsyWars/gishes), I'm happy.

[Ellowryn]

Hm. I like this idea. Invocations is a good comparison, but that's too magical of a name. Maybe we could call them deeds? Stunts? Exploits?

Wait, I've got it! We'll call them feats!

Back to being serious, this is a really good idea. Come up with about 60 or so specific actions (e.g. stun an opponent with a single attack, gain a large bonus to your next combat maneuver check), divide them into four categories like warlock invocations, name them... something. I don't know. I'll call them Heroic Abilities for now. Set use limits on some of them (e.g. you can only stun someone you haven't stunned in the last five rounds) while leave the others at-will. Provide action types to some (e.g. bonus to next combat maneuver check as a swift action). Create a class, d12 HD, full BAB, good fort/will (or all good saves), 4+Int skills, give them combat feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, and every fourth level after, let them choose a Heroic Ability at every odd level, and fill in the remaining levels (6/10/14/18) with something akin to armor/weapon training from the PF fighter. The trickiest part would be coming up with enough Heroic Abilities.

So a warlock that uses a blade, so we can call it a war-blade!

All jokes aside, this does seem like a simple way to make a decent melee character. And by simple i mean months of intense numbercrunching and playtesting while having to listen to a bunch of people too lazy to offer to help complain about every little thing you do. I think making the Heroic abilities that would take extra effort, and therefore time between uses, scale with level a good thing to fill extra level gaps, start off with something like your example of 5 rounds between uses but reduce that by 2 or 3 by the time they get to high level.

And for actual heroic abilities there are a lot of good stuff from ToB, so nothing wrong with appropriating from that source when necessary. Good fort and will, but maybe evasion at higher levels.

[AmberVael]

Back to being serious, this is a really good idea. Come up with about 60 or so specific actions (e.g. stun an opponent with a single attack, gain a large bonus to your next combat maneuver check), divide them into four categories like warlock invocations, name them... something. I don't know. I'll call them Heroic Abilities for now. Set use limits on some of them (e.g. you can only stun someone you haven't stunned in the last five rounds) while leave the others at-will. Provide action types to some (e.g. bonus to next combat maneuver check as a swift action). Create a class, d12 HD, full BAB, good fort/will (or all good saves), 4+Int skills, give them combat feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, and every fourth level after, let them choose a Heroic Ability at every odd level, and fill in the remaining levels (6/10/14/18) with something akin to armor/weapon training from the PF fighter. The trickiest part would be coming up with enough Heroic Abilities.

Xefas's existing mythos system has strong similarities, so it might be worth looking at.

[Andion Isurand]

A while back, I dabbled with Fighter Feat Scaling in that they would give a benefit based on the total number of fighter bonus feats the beneficiary has. You could incorporate this idea along with other ideas you might implement.

I would also change all the feats that apply to a specifically chosen weapon (or weapon group) like Weapon Specialization and Power Critical, etc... so that their benefits apply to all the weapons for which a character has taken Weapon Focus. That way a character can plug additional kinds of weapons (or weapon groups) into that kind of feat tree, by just taking Weapon Focus for each one.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hm. I like this idea. Invocations is a good comparison, but that's too magical of a name. Maybe we could call them deeds? Stunts? Exploits?

I like Deeds*.

It's not hard to write level-appropriate martial powers, as long as you can get over the "guy at the gym" fallacy. Accept that characters pass "peak human" by 6th level, are firmly in superhero territory by 12th, and verge on gods by 18th, and pick your inspiration accordingly. Beowulf can rip a dude's arm off and never get tired; let a fighter do that at 6th. Spiderman can dodge approximately a thousand arrows fired at him simultaneously; let a rogue do the same at 12th. Hulk can leap halfway across the continent; let a barbarian do that at 18th. "Balance" is all relative, and our "balance point" is casters who can literally create their own universe by the end of their progression.


*Deeds not necessarily compatible; classes were written at different times and balanced at different scales.

[Red Fel]

It boils down to this. There are three ways to go about making the melee-focused character feel as awesome as he should.

1. Bring him up to the caster's level. This is what ToB/PoW try to do, to mixed levels of success. The melee still can't warp reality, but he can do some cool, sometimes supernatural stuff. The distaste, for some, comes from the fact that it basically means turning the non-caster into a semi-caster just to be relevant.

2. Bring everyone else down to his level. This, for example, is one of the effects of E6 games. When magic is still on the weaker side, the man who can smash faces all day long remains functional. The minus side is that this could basically be seen as a nerf to the rest of the campaign world, and keeps you from employing some of the really awesome, powerful stuff.

3. Jack up the numbers. BAB explodes. AC becomes obscene. Saves skyrocket. When your hero can shrug off fireballs like a summer breeze, you know he's herculean. The downside, of course, is that you're abandoning any semblance of balance. Casters can rewrite reality, melees can ignore it, and everyone is a superhero.



That's pretty much it. Within the constraints of D&D/PF, magic is the be-all and end-all. Literally. You can either give magic to the melee, thus blurring the difference between the two; strip the rest of the world of magic, thus negating most of the system; or let melee more or less ignore the advantage, thus obviating both the need for magic and the challenge it poses. It's not pretty, and it's unfortunate.

There are other systems that better enable melee to remain functional, effective, and useful. They start from a place where magic is a valuable asset, but not a vital one, and possibly a dangerous one. D&D/PF, by contrast, starts from the position that if you don't have a certain amount of magic on your side at the outset, you're going to lose, and more is definitely better. It's not a balance that can be easily fixed.

It's not "What do I want from melee?" It's "What do I want from a system?" I can't see anything you could add to D&D/PF that would make melees what I want from them; it would require tearing it all down and building it back up. (I hear they may have done something like that in 4e/5e, but that's neither here nor there.)

So for now, I content myself with the cool stuff ToB/PoW gives me.

[Tvtyrant]

I think my biggest frustration is that D&D has decided that only casters get active defenses. There is no ability like: "When you would be effected by a spell, you aren't." You don't even get "use an AoO to dodge an attack roll." A level one wizard has more active defenses than a mundane ever gets, and the best we get is ToB's "make a static defense slightly better" effects.

[SinsI]

I want him to be a specialist at using lots of magic and non-magic things, with lots and lots of them being designed to be useful only in the hands of a trained professional like him.
I want Buffs to be actually dangerous to those you use them on - got enhanced Strength? Don't break your arm along with the enemy's head!
I want him to posses Commander Voice. A wizard summoned some beatsticks? They should not really be under his control - but Melee should be able to Intimidate them into following his orders.
I want him to be wearing a Magic Power Armor wearing Batman with many gadgets that do all the BFC, Saves-Or-Die or Status Effects wizards have to do themselves. I want DC of those to scale with the Melee's level.

[Afgncaap5]

Hmm...

You know... whenever Batman gets a legitimate superpower, it tends to be devastating. He holds his own without superpowers, but once they enter the equation he's a terror. So... maybe the best use for magic would be treating it as a force multiplier rather than as an actual result in and of itself?

I can't think of a way to do that without, like, rehauling both magic and melee abilities, sadly.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I want him to be a specialist at using lots of magic and non-magic things, with lots and lots of them being designed to be useful only in the hands of a trained professional like him.
I want Buffs to be actually dangerous to those you use them on - got enhanced Strength? Don't break your arm along with the enemy's head!
I want him to posses Commander Voice. A wizard summoned some beatsticks? They should not really be under his control - but Melee should be able to Intimidate them into following his orders.
I want him to be wearing a Magic Power Armor wearing Batman with many gadgets that do all the BFC, Saves-Or-Die or Status Effects wizards have to do themselves. I want DC of those to scale with the Melee's level.

The second two I can get behind but the first one I think is going in the wrong direction. Just because a buff can be used on a wizard doesn't mean we nerf the buff, because the Fighter uses it too. It also sounds a lot like a soft, sneaky ban DM's use when they don't want players using something but don't wanna say no. "OH, ya, you can buff up your strength score. You'll be randomly incurring longterm injuries and penalties associated with them though."

[Firechanter]

For my tastes, ToB goes a long way in making Melee interesting and competitive, but of course it suffers from shoddy editing.

Basically, what I want from Melee involves these:
- the ability to make short work of weaker enemies, and to successfully engage strong enemies;
- effective defenses against magic; if I can't cast any myself, I don't want to be knocked about like a playball by everyone who does.
- options in game beyond "I hit it with a stick". This involves, for instance, mobility and the ability to dish out status effects.

[Gnorman]

Versatility and the ability to change loadout on the fly, like a wizard. Floating feats are a must. Ideally better feats. Weapon Focus is a joke.

Problem with fighter isn't numbers, it's scope. Passive abilities are fixing the wrong problem. Doesn't matter if you have a +$TEXAS to hit when your opponent is flying out of range and has a 50% miss chance. Challenge is giving them a bunch of cool tactical abilities without people going "isn't this just a wizard by a different name?" and falling into the same trap 4E did. Resource schedules help to differentiate.



E6 helps too.

[SinsI]

The second two I can get behind but the first one I think is going in the wrong direction. Just because a buff can be used on a wizard doesn't mean we nerf the buff, because the Fighter uses it too. It also sounds a lot like a soft, sneaky ban DM's use when they don't want players using something but don't wanna say no. "OH, ya, you can buff up your strength score. You'll be randomly incurring longterm injuries and penalties associated with them though."

This is based on some superhero books, i.e. "Wearing the Cape". After breaking through and getting superstrength, the supers have to undergo extensive training to control that strength. Without it, they can break a cup while trying to pour tear into it - or can kill someone while giving him a hug. A fighter already has his own Strength bonus, so he is pretty good at controlling it, and getting an additional +6 should not be too hard for him to adapt to (since it is only something like double his Strength bonus), especially with all the training he gets. But a wizard will usually have a penalty instead, so the same +6 will easily increase his strength six or seven times. If he tries to open door, it is a Break check, if he pets his familiar - it is unarmed attack...
It is not necessary automatic penalty for wizards, but at the very least it should be a greater bonus for the fighter.

[AmberVael]

Versatility and the ability to change loadout on the fly, like a wizard. Floating feats are a must. Ideally better feats. Weapon Focus is a joke.

Problem with fighter isn't numbers, it's scope. Passive abilities are fixing the wrong problem. Doesn't matter if you have a +$TEXAS to hit when your opponent is flying out of range and has a 50% miss chance. Challenge is giving them a bunch of cool tactical abilities without people going "isn't this just a wizard by a different name?" and falling into the same trap 4E did. Resource schedules help to differentiate.

I can't think of a way to 'change loadout' that makes any kind of sense for a fighter, beyond something like having a bag of different weapons. Further, I don't think I agree that a changing loadout is even necessary or a good idea- Beguilers and Dread Necromancers are better designed than wizard if you ask me, and their design is exceptionally fixed. Psions and Sorcerers are also plenty capable and versatile.

I also think that passive abilities could fix a lot of the problem... it'd also just make them really boring if you did it entirely that way. But yeah, you definitely don't need passive numeric bonuses, the numbers aren't the issue. But other passive effects like increased movement/flight speed, immunities/resistances, or dealing minor status effects alongside damage, could potentially work. Its just better if you also have some active options so that you have some choices when your turn comes up, and to allow some more room in the design space.

[unbeliever536]

Combos. I don't want to attack the opponent, I want to break his guard, knock his weapon away, stun him, knock him out, and move on to the next opponent (who may require a different tactic).Trip and Knockdown get close to this, but they aren't nearly enough. I should be able to build eight different fighters who do different things with different tools, just like I can build eight different wizards who do different things with different tools.

[BWR]

Beowulf is a perfect example of how the basic 3.x combat system can model amazing literary heroes without having to introduce something like ToB/sword-magic. The only thing that might be hard is swimming for days on end, because Endurance won't help you there.

[Andion Isurand]

well, I never said my ideas were stand alone... just a little something to possibly add to everything else that needs to happen

[Eldariel]

I don't care about melee in particular, but noncasters in general. I think one huge part the system should account for where a sensible improvement could be made is actions. It makes sense for someone who trains their physique and alacrity all their life and ascends to demigodhood to be really, really fast. What this should practically mean IMHO is that with the way 3.X models the game, warriors should just get way more actions than non-warriors of equal level. More immediates, more swifts, eventually more full-rounds too. This would give them a game-mechanical edge that's really desirable for both sides, and mean that while a magical action is probably always going to be stronger than a non-magical one (which is the case as long as casters are to still feel like reality shapers), warriors can make up through sheer perseverence and speed.

Of course, warriors should also get more immunities and defenses as par de course and they should become faster by default and they should ignore any penalties to wearing armor and they should be able to disrupt actions of things they threaten and they should be able to passively threaten further away (due to their mobility) than their actual weapon reach and they should be able to move more freely without provoking AoOs, and they need to be able to physically just block people trying to move around them instead of just taking a swing; there's Beowulf standing in front of you, you are Not. Getting. Through without killing him. It's just not happening. Add a ToB-like system on top of that with room for making up new maneuvers on the fly (call it improvisation or whatever, I want my warriors to have the chance of coming up with new useful options for situations they find themselves in without practicing; of course, with a much higher chance of failure) and I'm game.

A Tome of Battle-style system is nearly necessary to truly model melee combat in particular; picking the right strikes and having the right counters in play and enabling the smart/experienced warriors to outthink opponents who might even be stronger than they are. Having different attacks and defenses with different strengths allows for dynamic combat, different warriors (some stuff can be tied to weapons; it should feel different fighting a mace vs. a sword, or a spear vs. either) and different combat experience each time. It makes melee combat interesting (bows can use them too but "bow vs. bow" is less of a thing since it lacks the parrying/defense/feint/counterattack aspect of sword v.s. sword for instance).


Also, one way to move the balance would be to move spells to a longer cast time as a basis (use 1-2 rounds instead of the current standard action as baseline) and have that improve with level. That way warriors have a window of opportunity to engage a caster should they find one unprepared and unarmed, and equally the warriors in the party would feel more useful protecting and defending the casters from enemy warriors.


TL;DR:

• Noncasters get more actions of all types.
• Noncasters get more mobility options and inherent speed (also, tie movement speed to Strength to balance the scores out - it makes sense anyways)
• Warriors become harder to bypass and more disruptive and threaten further away with level.
• Warriors get all sorts of immunities and resistances as they level.
• Casters cast spells slower to start with but improve on the speed of their lower level spells with character levels.
• There exists a Tome of Battle-style maneuver system with built-in improvisation options to essentially give warriors limitless options on the battlefield (but higher risk of failure while improvising of course).

[Chester]

Yup, higher level casters are better than higher level melee.

Still, it's fun to break things and crack skulls.

[Morty]

I honestly don't care all that much about scaling them up to magic-users. Trying to match the absurd levels of power D&D's magic system allows for is a lost cause and turns the game into an even more ridiculous rocket tag.

What I do care about is agency, freedom, variety and capacity to inflict their archetypal abilities on the game's world. Which is close, but not the same. Non-magical characters, be they warriors, experts or anything in-between, should have many different specializations they can pursue, as opposed to being brow-beaten into a few narrow paths that work, or getting a grab-bag of whatever feels appropriate. Furthermore, they should have a lot of immediate, round-by-round options with which to do it.

All of it requires an actually functional combat model and skill system, in addition to any class design. ToB and PoW are good, but they only have so much to work with.

[Milo v3]

I think the problem with trying to fix martial characters is that... the issue has nothing to do with combat, but combat is what defines them, meaning the only answers you can get will either not work or will move it away from "martial".

[Dienekes]

Well let's see. I would like a method of combat that actually allows you to, easily and effectively, model things that a real combatant would do.

Parry, Riposte, Hamstringing, Weapon Locks, Murder Strikes, Aiming for the Head/Arm/Leg, Warding, Feint (why the Hell is a Fighter bad at feinting?), Beats, and much more. Plus stuff to model stances and guards: Vom Tag, Ox, Fool, etc. Maybe some mechanics to better model distances engages and disengages. I once came up with a list of various maneuvers I wanted to see trained swordsman being capable of doing and I think it grew into the 30s or 40s. And here's the kicker, a lot (not nearly all) could actually be modeled in D&D, some would require using spells, some feats, some maneuvers. But to get enough to say: ok this is what a competent warrior would look like, required a ridiculously disjointed level 40 build.

If I'm going to play a swordsman, I want him to be at least as good a swordsman as I am. And I suck, but I can do all this stuff.

More kudos comes from having these abilities not be completely spamable. Someone doing the same move again and again (trip builds) are 1) boring, and 2) would lose every real life fight. Now ToB, especially the Warblade and Crusader did a decent job of forcing the player to act like a swordsman and vary up their attacks, even though actually thinking about the way they implemented it makes no sense.

Then, give them out of combat abilities that are actually worth a damn. Look at the heroes of legend, fiction, and history: Beowulf, Ajax, Alexander the Great, Aragorn. These guys were all melee fighters, but they could still do things. They were great leaders, or tacticians, or explorers. Now, of course, not every warrior needs to be able to do all of this at the same time, but each should be able to do one or two.

Do this, and you can get fighters that are interesting to play. Then as they get higher in level maybe break physics a bit, or get some trump cards to use. Honestly, they don't need to be as game breaking as wizards (I would much rather drag those classes down than rise others up), but a base of Tier 3 would be nice.

[OldTrees1]

I think the problem with trying to fix martial characters is that... the issue has nothing to do with combat, but combat is what defines them, meaning the only answers you can get will either not work or will move it away from "martial".

Really? The only non combat deficiency I see is the skill list/#skill points. Other things like interdimensional travel and mental protection are problems in and out of combat and thus improvements there remain combat focused despite having out of combat uses.

Also most martial classes have themes that extend beyond combat. The exceptions to this have generic themes.