Sorcerer vs. Beguiler

[SinsI]

the fighter's ability of extreme specialization on one tactic more than the warblade give them a much higher optimization ceiling.

First time I'm seeing someone that says fighter can be better than a warblade in any situation. At high levels of optimization all fighter feats together are worth a total of 44k gp (11 Pearls of Power II). And almost all fighter's alternative class features are not even worth a single maneuver...

in high-level, high-op situations the sorcerer is clearly superior

How is any sorcerer superior to a Rainbow Beguiler that has access to all cleric spells, spontaneously?

[Nihilarian]

There are very few feats that are worth losing 9th level maneuvers for, and fighter doesn't get exclusive access to any of them.

[Felyndiira]

Those kind of spells are only as powerful as the DM allows them to be. Just because there is a Troglodyte entry in one of the Monster Manuals doesn't mean that they exist (and are thus available to players) in a particular game world. One of the strictest interpretations is that you get only a single DM-approved form for each spell + those of monsters you actually met in the game. So no Solars, Zotars or Genies unless DM decides to throw them at you...

We are arguing things like using Charm Person and diplomacy to start an army here. I don't think homebrew restrictions on Alter Self is really warranted when uber-diplomacers are GM-approved and on the table.

How is any sorcerer superior to a Rainbow Beguiler that has access to all cleric spells, spontaneously?

As an example, you can use Shadowcraft Mage on either base class to cast 120% Spontaneous Miracles from a sixth level slot (I've heard that there are loops that lets you do this from a cantrip slot, though I've never seen the build behind this). Once you get miracle from a sixth level slot, even having spontaneous access to all cleric spells stop really mattering (unless if you really need that True Resurrection). For everything else, there's Shapechange (which may or may not grant spellcasting, depending on how you read the RAW on that).

Let's talk about how the Beguiler progresses across those levels:

1st - You get all the social skills, all the rogue skills, and Abuse Magic Device. You're an Int based caster, so you get some 9 to 11 of those. Pick diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive for social, search and disable device for trapfinding, abuse magic device for value, and any four other skills you want. You dominate any time people aren't killing fools. And you get a laundry list of the best 1st level spells for winning when people are killing fools.

2nd - You hit (assuming you managed a +1 Cha modifier) +10 to diplomacy, letting you nail the "you should be on my team" speech for charmed people. Starting at this point you're followed around by as many minions as your DM will allow you. The only hitch is that if you never fight humanoids you've got to charm some town guards or something.

3rd - Advanced Learning hits. You pick power word pain because it is amazing.

4th - Not a whole lot happens, except glitterdust. And hypnotic pattern. And mirror image.

6th - You get 3rd level spells, which are still crazy hardcore. Now you are also a Mindbender. Remember how you used to have to be able to talk to people to convince them to join your army of allies? Now you don't.

8th - 4th level spells. Notably, charm monster. Remember how you used to only be able to redeem humanoids to the path of ... whatever it is you do? Now you can grab anyone (with a language).

First of all, no one is going to deny that a trumped up Rainbow Warsnake Beguilersnake build is a T1 king. If we're really going that deep into optimization, though...a Sorcerer can also achieve 1st level slot miracles via Shadowcraft Mage in the same way that Beguilers can. Sorcerers are going to be innately better at metamagic by trading out their familiar, which makes the Incantatrix more powerful for them (also, they also have easier access to IotSV). Both can go Mage of the Arcane Order to effectively get the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list. Both can make human sacrifices for bonuses. Both can achieve pun-pun. At what point are we no longer comparing the power of the base class and instead just trumping up what a powerful prestige class can do?

By fourth level, a sorcerer can easily switch one of his first level spells from, oh, Color Spray to Charm Person if being a diplomancer is your thing. Hitting a +10 to diplomacy isn't a difficult thing to do in 3.5; With +5 from Cha (Savage Progression Aasimar), +4 from CC ranks, and +2 from, say, a masterwork diplomacy tool a sorcerer hits it just as well. I didn't even hit skill synergies (thought I'd leave it out, since the sorcerer does have lower skill points). Sure, he invested some resources into this, but if your DM is allowing you to play ball with charm person like this, why would the sorcerer not do so?

Beguiler gets a lot of utility spells at fourth level. I'm not sure why you focused on the combat ones when we are comparing the versatility of the class and left out, say, Invisibility. However, Alter Self is not just "kinda useful utility spell" like you claim. Want to go multiple natural attacks? Sure. Fly? Dig? Swim? Sure. Even without the (su) abilities of outsiders, there's still a decent breadth of racial skill bonuses you can choose from with some outsider form. All of these are things that the beguiler simply does not do with his spell list (unless if you want to argue handle animal to get a roc mount?)

I mean, no one is saying a beguiler's spell list is bad in this thread. My entire focus is on the breadth of versatility that the two classes have; since both can achieve charm person minionmancy, a lot of it is just the beguiler's skills and their spell list versus the versatility given by some of the most expansive spells on the wizard list. I even agree with you that the Beguiler probably wins at this level, though Alter Self is when the sorcerer begins to catch up in a major way in comparison, and that most sorcerers that I know actually do not take Alter Self as their first 2nd level spell. It's just that Beguilers don't get some of the stuff that Alter Self can give you at anywhere close to that level (barring the GM just handing you a bunch of creatures in ye olde marketplace), which makes the two very close in versatility.

[Brova]

Beguilers win in actual games because the build complexity for a given power level is lower. Yes, you can alter self into whatever creature you dug up, but you've got to dig through the monster book, convince your DM to allow alter self, etc. The Beguiler gets enough power to match that just for existing. By taking a prestige class and no feats, he rockets to "better than everyone except maybe Druid." Yes, other people can match his tricks. But no one can do it as easy or as early. The Beguiler isn't king because you can make a Beguiler that "X broken thing", he's king because he hits the top of the power scale just by existing.

At what point are we no longer comparing the power of the base class and instead just trumping up what a powerful prestige class can do?

I won't set a point in stone, but I will argue that the Rainbow Servant is sufficiently synergistic with Beguiler to come in far below that threshold.

It's just that Beguilers don't get some of the stuff that Alter Self can give you at anywhere close to that level (barring the GM just handing you a bunch of creatures in ye olde marketplace), which makes the two very close in versatility.

So your big conclusion is that Sorcerers and Beguilers are of comparable power level?

There are very few feats that are worth losing 9th level maneuvers for, and fighter doesn't get exclusive access to any of them.

Persist Spell definitely. Maybe Quicken or Twin. Arcane Thesis potentially, with the right support. That's just off the top of my head. I guess what I'm saying is, Fighters can't have nice things.

[SinsI]

We are arguing things like using Charm Person and diplomacy to start an army here. I don't think homebrew restrictions on Alter Self is really warranted when uber-diplomacers are GM-approved and on the table.

To be able to assume a form of a humanoid race a character first has to know that such a race exist, doesn't he? Unless it is one of the player races, such knowledge is not going to be readily available. And a sorcerer has a measly 2+Int skillpoints, and only Knowledge(arcana) is his class skill - so he practically has no chance of getting such a knowledge.

Using Charm Person for multiple encounters over several days would be an abuse that stretches it, but someone you Charmed in the first encounter of a day can help you in the second encounter.

[Phaederkiel]

and even weapon supremacy, the fighters standalone feature, is accessible for the warblade.
No, the power features of the fighter come at 2nd, 6th and 9th level: Dungeoncrusher and zhentarim. After that, at the very latest, it is warblade all the way.

lets face it: unless you are jack be quick, or some other incredibly feat-hungry build, a ToB class will be better than you.
And even then it is normaly not wise to stay pure fighter, high OP tends to mix in Psionic fighter, for 1 more feat. Or Monk, for another 2 feats, if you select your style well. Pure fighter is a fluff choice. What power the class per se has ends at the latest at lvl 9, probably at lvl 2.


btw: Alter self is a spell that does not fly at many tables. At mine for instance. We took the axe to the polymorph and celerity lines. I think that many people who actually play the game handle these spells like this.

[Urpriest]

To be able to assume a form of a humanoid race a character first has to know that such a race exist, doesn't he? Unless it is one of the player races, such knowledge is not going to be readily available. And a sorcerer has a measly 2+Int skillpoints, and only Knowledge(arcana) is his class skill - so he practically has no chance of getting such a knowledge.

No, that's true for Wildshape, but not the Polymorph line. Alter Self and co require the player to know the race exists, but place no restrictions on the character's knowledge.

[Felyndiira]

To be able to assume a form of a humanoid race a character first has to know that such a race exist, doesn't he? Unless it is one of the player races, such knowledge is not going to be readily available. And a sorcerer has a measly 2+Int skillpoints, and only Knowledge(arcana) is his class skill - so he practically has no chance of getting such a knowledge.

Using Charm Person for multiple encounters over several days would be an abuse that stretches it, but someone you Charmed in the first encounter of a day can help you in the second encounter.

By RAW, you don't have to. If this is enforced, you can add that your character heavily studied Lantern Archons and Advespas in their childhood, and renamed himself Old Man Henderson in the process. Also, plenty of high-OP games are okay with it.

It is major cheese, yes, but the same goes for charming NPCs with significant abilities. A GM might allow you to charm a level 1 warrior town guard to follow you for a while, but it will take some leniency and tolerance before he'd allow you to charm a full adventuring party to join you forever - the same as a Henderson-like background just for the use of Alter Self (or just letting you Alter Self into anything without any prior knowledge, which is entirely within RAW).

But yes, if your DM is strict on it (as I imagine that many will be), Alter Self can also end up just being a glorified Disguise Self spell. I couldn't imagine a DM cracking down on Polymorph spells and then giving the pass to a text-over-table Rainbow Beguilersnake, though.

[Brova]

Honestly, this has turned into "alter self cheese versus charm person cheese", which while interesting is not particularly useful. So let's try something that tries to capture an actual game. You get Core + one splatbook, show off character at 1/5/10, assume no to alter self, charm person, and cheese in general (i.e. no Incantatrix). Maybe do a couple more rounds with loser restrictions.

[Karl Aegis]

Aren't we investing resources in knowledge skills anyways due to the fact that it helps us identify what is a viable target for charm person? We're investing resources to identify what religions give the right domains for our feat or second level spell slot for beguilers and sorcerers, respectively, and to identify undead that are immune to some effects as well.

[Troacctid]

Honestly, this has turned into "alter self cheese versus charm person cheese", which while interesting is not particularly useful. So let's try something that tries to capture an actual game. You get Core + one splatbook, show off character at 1/5/10, assume no to alter self, charm person, and cheese in general (i.e. no Incantatrix). Maybe do a couple more rounds with loser restrictions.

Given the common wisdom that Player > Build > Class, this doesn't sound like a productive exercise.

[Felyndiira]

So your big conclusion is that Sorcerers and Beguilers are of comparable power level?

At level 4? Yes, that's exactly my point. There were arguments about how the sorcerer is heavily constrained by their limited spell slots at lower levels, and I'm simply saying that versatile spells (like Alter Self [EDIT: Actually, only alter self]) exists to overcome the limited spells known by a bit and edge the two classes closer to each other at that level.

If my post was not worded well enough, then my apologies.

[Brova]

Given the common wisdom that Player > Build > Class, this doesn't sound like a productive exercise.

It depends on what you want to prove. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that both the Beguiler and the Sorcerer bat 50/50 on the SGT with reasonable builds makes them equal. I just think that the exercise proposed provides a concrete way to determine which class is superior in actual play.

[SinsI]

Aren't we investing resources in knowledge skills anyways due to the fact that it helps us identify what is a viable target for charm person? We're investing resources to identify what religions give the right domains for our feat or second level spell slot for beguilers and sorcerers, respectively, and to identify undead that are immune to some effects as well.

Beguiler has plenty of skillpoints, Knowledge(local) is his class skill and uses his primary casting attribute, so he is perfectly ready unless you throw something exotic at him.
Plus with Charm Person you can just fire it at anything, with the only downside being that you've wasted your spell slot and action if you thought that that Illithid was a Humanoid and not an Aberration.

Alter Self is very powerful in the hands of a Bard or Wizard, but Sorcerers can't take advantage of its strong sides.

[Bad Wolf]

And of course its snowballing into a Beguiler vs Wizard competition. I assume dextercorvia will offer to DM, then get rejected because he's tendentious?

[Story]

Beguilers win in actual games because the build complexity for a given power level is lower. Yes, you can alter self into whatever creature you dug up, but you've got to dig through the monster book, convince your DM to allow alter self, etc. The Beguiler gets enough power to match that just for existing. By taking a prestige class and no feats, he rockets to "better than everyone except maybe Druid." Yes, other people can match his tricks. But no one can do it as easy or as early. The Beguiler isn't king because you can make a Beguiler that "X broken thing", he's king because he hits the top of the power scale just by existing.

Good luck finding a DM that allows Rainbow Warsnakes but not Alter Self.

[Chronos]

Quoth Phaederkiel:

and even weapon supremacy, the fighters standalone feature, is accessible for the warblade.

No, the fighter's standalone feature is getting 11 more feats than anyone else, all day and always on.

And in comparing beguilers to other skillmonkeys, rogues are clearly better at skills, and ninjas and spellthieves are their equal. The rogue comparison is easy: A rogue will probably have an Int about four points lower than a beguiler, giving them the same total number of skill points, but the rogue will probably have higher Dex, giving them better scores on most of the key skillmonkey skills. Plus, rogues also eventually get Skill Mastery, while beguilers don't get any skill-boosting abilities.

The comparison to the ninja or spellthief takes a bit more thought. For any given Int score, all three of these classes will have the same number of skill points, from mostly the same list, and with no particular abilities that improve their skills beyond ranks (aside from Trapfinding, which they all get). The usual counterargument is that the beguiler has higher Int. But why doesn't the ninja or spellthief have that same high Int? They could if they wanted to. But the reason that they don't usually want to is because they usually raise Dex instead. If Int were a more useful score than Dex for a skillmonkey, then all skillmonkeys would raise Int instead of Dex.

[Brova]

Good luck finding a DM that allows Rainbow Warsnakes but not Alter Self.

Did you miss the part where I'm comparing alter self dumpster diving to the baseline power of the Beguiler, then pointing out that he could totally take Rainbow Servant on top of that? charm person, glitterdust, and friends are things the Beguiler just has. No dumpster diving, no spell selection, you just get that for writing "Beguiler" as your class. The fact is that being a Beguiler is a choice as good or better than any other spellcaster at whatever level of effort you choose to put in. If that effort is "pick random spells", the Beguiler gets ones that kill fools. If that level is "dumpster dive splats for marginal power", the Beguiler casts every Cleric spell spontaneously. That's not to say you can't build a Sorcerer or Wizard or Cleric who is better than any given Beguiler. You totally can. It's just that for that effort, you could have had a better Beguiler.

[Troacctid]

And in comparing beguilers to other skillmonkeys, rogues are clearly better at skills, and ninjas and spellthieves are their equal. The rogue comparison is easy: A rogue will probably have an Int about four points lower than a beguiler, giving them the same total number of skill points, but the rogue will probably have higher Dex, giving them better scores on most of the key skillmonkey skills. Plus, rogues also eventually get Skill Mastery, while beguilers don't get any skill-boosting abilities.

The comparison to the ninja or spellthief takes a bit more thought. For any given Int score, all three of these classes will have the same number of skill points, from mostly the same list, and with no particular abilities that improve their skills beyond ranks (aside from Trapfinding, which they all get). The usual counterargument is that the beguiler has higher Int. But why doesn't the ninja or spellthief have that same high Int? They could if they wanted to. But the reason that they don't usually want to is because they usually raise Dex instead. If Int were a more useful score than Dex for a skillmonkey, then all skillmonkeys would raise Int instead of Dex.

Ah, but you forget that Beguilers have access to familiars that share all their skill ranks. That's two skillmonkeys for the price of one. Extra stealthy, improved scouting, free +2 on everything via aid another, or just roll twice and take the better result if you prefer. Big advantage.

[atemu1234]

I was referring to the terrifying and short reign of Lord Drako, who claimed that wizards were in every way inferior to his 'Sorserer King'.

I'd courtesy link to the forum rules if I could from mobile. We shouldn't reference locked threads and banned users anyway.

Also, my 2 cp on the subject:

Sorcerer is worse at low levels, but by about fifth level the sorcerer has significant advantages.

Also, are we taking outside core into consideration?

Edit: Wow, I somehow missed the fact that this thread had more than one page.

[HaikenEdge]

Ah, but you forget that Beguilers have access to familiars that share all their skill ranks. That's two skillmonkeys for the price of one. Extra stealthy, improved scouting, free +2 on everything via aid another, or just roll twice and take the better result if you prefer. Big advantage.

Not naturally. They have to burn a feat.

[dextercorvia]

And of course its snowballing into a Beguiler vs Wizard competition. I assume dextercorvia will offer to DM, then get rejected because he's tendentious?

I smiled. I tend to think that Sorcerer pulls even around 5th -7th level, and isn't noticeably behind in spellpower during the early levels. Chassis is going to really help from 1-4, and Beguiler does get a decent subset of the best 1st-3rd level spells, with some situational spells for free.

I tend to think that Beguilers will have difficulty in a game where they are expected to fulfill both the primary arcane and the primary skillmonkey role. With 11 sp per level, it is hard to keep all of your casting skills, knowledges, stealth, and perception skills up to snuff, and have some left over to actually disable traps, avoid being flat-footed while balancing, avoid AoOs for movement, UMD. A sorcerer has the benefit that no one expects him to be able to do more than Spellcraft, Concentration, and maybe Bluff or UMD.

[Troacctid]

Not naturally. They have to burn a feat.

Druids don't naturally get Natural Spell. Dragonfire Adepts don't naturally get Entangling Exhalation. Clerics don't naturally get Divine Metamagic. Those are still huge selling points for the classes. Every Beguiler should be taking Obtain Familiar--it's too powerful to pass up, and unlike with a Bard, the class isn't so feat-hungry that you won't have room for it.

I tend to think that Beguilers will have difficulty in a game where they are expected to fulfill both the primary arcane and the primary skillmonkey role. With 11 sp per level, it is hard to keep all of your casting skills, knowledges, stealth, and perception skills up to snuff, and have some left over to actually disable traps, avoid being flat-footed while balancing, avoid AoOs for movement, UMD. A sorcerer has the benefit that no one expects him to be able to do more than Spellcraft, Concentration, and maybe Bluff or UMD.

I'd go for Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, UMD, and just enough Tumble to hit DC 15. Maybe cross-class Intimidate for Mindbender, maybe 5 ranks in Decipher Script if I'm going to be UMD'ing a lot of scrolls, maybe Search if I'm really worried about traps. There should be a few points to spare for bits and pieces here and there; if not, borrow them from Knowledge (Arcana), since that doesn't really need to be maxed. Hide is mostly unnecessary thanks to invisibility (and if you go Darkstalker you can use Move Silently in its place), disarming traps is overrated, your familiar can handle perception (or you can take Mindsight if you dipped Mindbender), and you can't worry too much about cross-class knowledges.

[SinsI]

And in comparing beguilers to other skillmonkeys, rogues are clearly better at skills, and ninjas and spellthieves are their equal. The rogue comparison is easy: A rogue will probably have an Int about four points lower than a beguiler, giving them the same total number of skill points, but the rogue will probably have higher Dex, giving them better scores on most of the key skillmonkey skills. Plus, rogues also eventually get Skill Mastery, while beguilers don't get any skill-boosting abilities.

Dex-based Beguiler skills:
Balance - extremely situational
Escape Artist - even more situational than Balance
Move Silently - Beguiler gets Silence spell (and Silent Spell feat), making this skill useless
Open Lock - Beguiler gets Knock, making this skill useless
Sleight of Hand - has some minor uses
Tumble - the only one that is worth maxing.

Result: Two skills that gain anything from high Dex.

Int-based Beguiler skills:
Appraise - Extra Treasure for you!
Decipher Script - worth 5 ranks for UMD synergy
Disable Device - Max it!
Forgery - while situational, it can be extremely helpful
Knowledge(Arcana) - decent
Knowledge(Local) - decent
Search - Max it!
Spellcraft - decent

Almost everything is at least decent.
Beguiler gets a lot more from Int than from Dex.

And while it's pretty late (8th level spell so lvl 16), Beguiler has access to Moment of Prescience, which can make lots of those skill checks trivial, while Rogue don't have the luxury of it.

[Grim Reader]

Well. Sorry I've been a bit absent since starting the thread, the runup to the summer vacation is quite rushed both in work and outside.

I'm seeing a rough consensus here that the Beguiler is better for the first 1-5 levels, and that the Sorcerer edges out ahead somewhere around level 5-8. That seems sensible, really. The Beguilers advantages are a better chassis, skills, and getting spells that do one thing well (hitting the Will save) and a few other things adequately. Buffs through Haste, defense, invisibility, mobility, dispel magic, etc. The Sorcerer starts out being able to do one thing adequately. By the time he can do one thing well and several things adequately, he will be ahead, since he should be less limited by type and save.

That should be roughly around the time 4th level spells come online. From there on, the Beguiler spells become more lackluster compared to the goods he got at levels 1-3. Whereas the Sorcerer gets stuff like Celerity, Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Wings of Flurry etc. By the time the 5th level ones roll around with Arcane Fusion its all over.

As for the specific arguments, my own opinions are:

Rainbow Beguilingsnake: If you got to throw ten levels of another class onto your your class to compete, that pretty much says that the original class couldn't compete.

Charm Person: While the Beguiler might be somewhat better at this, and have more resources to throw at it, the option is equally open to the Sorcerer, and being a Cha-based caster mitigates the Beguilers advantage somewhat. So it doesn't really put the beguiler way ahead of the Sorcerer. It just one more point in the thing the Beguiler does well in the "beguiler does this thing really well, the Sorcerer can tailor himself better" list.

Heighten/Versatile: To me, this is firmly in TO-land. I consider the borders of TO land to begin where the stuff DMs allow at the table starts to end. If it is RAW, but won't be allowed anywhere, its TO to me. And I've never met a DM that will let you use two feats to skip ahead three levels of casting!

Arcane Disciple: Well, the Beguiler definitely gets more mileage out of this. I think it is better compared to Extra Spell than a Sorcerer picking Arcane Disciple. To use Arcane Disciple, you must pick a deity, which then limits your picks to his domains. You're likely to get at least one real gem for your fist pick of AD, when you can in practice chose from nearly any list of domain spells. If you're lucky, the domain list contains another good spell and maybe some semi-useful ones as well. Which you can use once per day. Your second pick is limited to one of maybe two further domains, and so is unlikly to pay off as much. So the marginal utility of the feat declines rapidly.

In comparison, every use of Extra Spell should net the Sorcerer a gem, which is spammable.

[Chronos]

Quoth Troacctid:

Ah, but you forget that Beguilers have access to familiars that share all their skill ranks. That's two skillmonkeys for the price of one. Extra stealthy, improved scouting, free +2 on everything via aid another, or just roll twice and take the better result if you prefer. Big advantage.

True, and I really should have taken that into consideration, given how much I tout that particular advantage of familiars. It does cost a feat, but it's a feat well spent. OK, that puts them ahead of ninjas, though spellthieves can (and should) also take Obtain Familiar.

SinsI, while some skills can be replaced by some spells in some situations, it's not really true that you can completely replace all of them. Move Silently can only be replaced by Silence if you never need to get within 15' of anyone, because the sudden cessation of background noise will alert them that you're there (there are ways around that, but they have their own drawbacks), and also lets you cast spells without needing a higher-level slot. Hide, which you inexplicably didn't mention, trumps all of the stealth and detection spells, once you get to even moderately-optimized bonus levels. Knock is a waste of a spell slot, given how common locks can be, when Open Lock can be used an unlimited number of times for free. Sleight of Hand doesn't just have "minor uses"-- It's a full-on overpowered campaign smasher.

[nedz]

Move Silently doesn't allow you to cast spells silently, though Beguilers do get Silent Spell for free. Beguilers also have Zone of Silence which is the perfect spell for this.

[Gnaeus]

In my experience, it's the opposite.

Saves scale by at least 1/3 per HD, and often 1/2 or even faster due to extensive multiclassing. By comparison, save DCs for spells require those spells be higher level or heightened to scale. On the other hand, the ability for spell save DC will often increase faster than saving throw abilities, largely cancelling this out. However, the effects of Resistance bonuses from items (which rapidly scale to +5), the Conviction spell (Cleric 1, scaling to a +5 morale bonus), various spells and abilities which allow rerolling of saves, and other miscellany tend to make Saving Throw bonuses scale very quickly, especially the practical bonus you see in a dangerous situation with buffs up and rerolls being spammed. By contrast, investment of resources to improve your save DC tends to be quite expensive and slow, outside of the Owl's Wisdom Druid spell.

This applies less and less as your opposition is more of a monster and less of a bag of class levels, but a lot of intelligent monsters might have access to gear, buffs, spellcasting, etc.

Well, If I were a sorcerer, and was spamming a level 2 SOL for many levels, that would be a problem. However, as has been mentioned, Beguilers have SoL spells at pretty much every level, so I can most always spam them from my highest level slot if I need to.

The most basic resource to improve Save DCs is casting stat. But in general, any Sorcerer is going to keep his Cha maxed, and any Beguiler will keep his Int maxed, anyway. It gives them more spells, and in the case of Beguilers, also adds nice boosts to important skills.

I wanted to jump on you for ignoring the analysis on this, but then I realized it was back in the parent thread. Here it is again, edited to correct my error about how mind fog works.

Not too much. Your real gold standard for dominate person is a rogue or fighter. At level 10, when I get dominate person, my save DC on dominate is likely to be at least 20. (Say, 16 starting int, 2 int bumps, +2 int item, so 20 int=+5, level 5 spell=DC 20. We're low op here, it should be higher). A 12-14th level NPC fighter or rogue is likely to have a will save in the +4-+8 range. (+4 base, +0-2 wisdom, +1-2 resistance (remember, NPCs get a lot less gold than PCs do)). I've got a pretty good chance to ensnare any non paladin/monk muggle in my CR range. Lacking thuddy people in the normal course of events, I can always make it a character goal to find a group of bandits or orcs or a rogues guild and go dominate their leaders

A 12-13th level Wizard, a mid range target, is likely to have a will save in the +9-12 range (+8 base, +0-2 wis, +1-2 resistance). Give me a good set of circumstances (I sneak in, get a surprise round, cast dominate person, Round 1, target still flat footed, cast it again Cloaked Caster adds +2 to my DC) and I have somewhere between %50 and %75 chance to dominate pretty much humanoid in my CR range who hadn't already cast protection from evil. Give me a standard low op party (Or some cr appropriate minions), where we have a fighter or rogue willing to drop humanoids with non-lethal damage, and I have an incredibly good chance to be able to dominate anyone I want.

[Brova]

That should be roughly around the time 4th level spells come online. From there on, the Beguiler spells become more lackluster compared to the goods he got at levels 1-3. Whereas the Sorcerer gets stuff like Celerity, Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Wings of Flurry etc. By the time the 5th level ones roll around with Arcane Fusion its all over.

You get one of those 4th level spells at 8th. I doubt it's going to be celerity, if you're going for polymorph you're claiming a high enough level of optimization/DM permissiveness that the Beguiler should expect to get charmed minions, and getting both wings of flurry and arcane fusion (or celerity and either) is enough to push you into territory where the Beguiler could just be taking Arcane Disciple or Knowstones.

IMHO, the point where the Sorcerer pushes ahead is a brief window between the Beguiler's humanoid minions becoming irrelevant and starting to get nonhumanoid minions. So somewhere between 5th-ish and 8th, depending on how good your humanoids are.

Rainbow Beguilingsnake: If you got to throw ten levels of another class onto your your class to compete, that pretty much says that the original class couldn't compete.

It's not throwing ten levels of PrC at a class to make it good, it's throwing ten levels at a class to make it insane. As far as it goes, Beguiler/Rainbow Servant is one of the best high level builds in the game.

Charm Person: While the Beguiler might be somewhat better at this, and have more resources to throw at it, the option is equally open to the Sorcerer, and being a Cha-based caster mitigates the Beguilers advantage somewhat. So it doesn't really put the beguiler way ahead of the Sorcerer. It just one more point in the thing the Beguiler does well in the "beguiler does this thing really well, the Sorcerer can tailor himself better" list.

You're missing the point. Three points actually. One, the Beguiler's advantage is the simplicity of doing this. What the Sorcerer has to work for he gets just for existing. Two, the fact that the Sorcerer can pull of the Beguiler's tricks doesn't make the Beguiler bad. Three, because this is something the Beguiler gets for free, any resources the Sorcerer invests to get it are points the Beguiler could put towards something else (i.e. Arcane Disciple)

Heighten/Versatile: To me, this is firmly in TO-land. I consider the borders of TO land to begin where the stuff DMs allow at the table starts to end. If it is RAW, but won't be allowed anywhere, its TO to me. And I've never met a DM that will let you use two feats to skip ahead three levels of casting!

I totally agree. Not particularly sure where that came from. It's not happening it actual play land and in TO land it's overshadowed.

Arcane Disciple: Well, the Beguiler definitely gets more mileage out of this. I think it is better compared to Extra Spell than a Sorcerer picking Arcane Disciple. To use Arcane Disciple, you must pick a deity, which then limits your picks to his domains. You're likely to get at least one real gem for your fist pick of AD, when you can in practice chose from nearly any list of domain spells. If you're lucky, the domain list contains another good spell and maybe some semi-useful ones as well. Which you can use once per day. Your second pick is limited to one of maybe two further domains, and so is unlikly to pay off as much. So the marginal utility of the feat declines rapidly.

The advantage of Arcane Disciple over Extra Spell is basically that you always get a level appropriate option. Extra Spell requires you to pick from a level below your highest, which puts the Sorcerer pretty far behind on spell power. Assuming the Beguiler starts taking Arcane Disciple at 6th, he's looking for something that grants him a sweet 3rd level spell, something that grants him a sweet 4th or 5th level spell, and something that grants him a sweet 6th level spell. Taking it three times for three or for Save or Dies on Fort or Ref saves is a fairly good deal, especially considering that you already dominate Will save or dies.

[SinsI]

Rainbow Beguilingsnake: If you got to throw ten levels of another class onto your your class to compete, that pretty much says that the original class couldn't compete.

All the rest of the classes (except Warmage) get much less from both suggested PRCs. And it starts to give significant benefits right from the start - those Domains are like a free Arcane Disciple feat.

SinsI, while some skills can be replaced by some spells in some situations, it's not really true that you can completely replace all of them. Move Silently can only be replaced by Silence if you never need to get within 15' of anyone, because the sudden cessation of background noise will alert them that you're there (there are ways around that, but they have their own drawbacks), and also lets you cast spells without needing a higher-level slot.

In that case there's the above-mentioned Zone of Silence.

Hide, which you inexplicably didn't mention, trumps all of the stealth and detection spells, once you get to even moderately-optimized bonus levels.

Earth Sense? Note that Beguiler is likely to have it from lvl 1 (to get into Rainbow Servant at level 5, or to aim for Shadowcraft Mage brokenness).

Invisibility can duplicate it 95% of the time (and, unless you really invested a lot into Hide, it trumps Hide).

Knock is a waste of a spell slot, given how common locks can be, when Open Lock can be used an unlimited number of times for free. Sleight of Hand doesn't just have "minor uses"-- It's a full-on overpowered campaign smasher.

It's a 2nd level spell, you will have plenty of those slots (16 is easy), plus you can always use a wand. And best Open Lock is your friendly Warblade's Mountain Hammer which doesn't require any investment.

Spells + skills make a much better skill monkey than just skills.