New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 109
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mendicant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Is there a situation that:

    A) Doesn't split the party

    or

    B) Leads to something interesting on a failure

    when using climb, swim or jump? If there isn't, you're just rolling for the sake of rolling. Extra rolls just slow down the game.
    Spoiler: Response
    Show


    There are two ways to make movement skills interesting and useful without rolling for the sake of rolling. The simplest are flat barriers that require an auto-succeed take 10. These should be used like a lower-tier version of Passwall, Teleport or Plane Shift--spells which give the party strategic flexibility in how they approach challenges without actually contributing much drama. Success in this case should lead to immediate or almost immediate success for the less physically capable specimens--you put in pitons, open a gate, whatever. This barely intrudes at all on playtime or flow, but it does let the party fighter contribute something outside of combat.

    In combat, climb and acrobatics (FWIW, I'm using Pathfinder's skill list -fly, because screw the fly skill. I'm not making people invest skills into a movement type only available to them at another player's sufferage. I've referred to 3.5 skills like jump because I'd like this to be as broad a discussion as possible) should open up tactical options created by terrain. Two examples from my own game, which just hit 6th level and only has a (frequently absent) cleric in terms of full casters:

    Last session, they had to fight their way through a graveyard built into several concentric, broken rings of low cliffs, with a wide staircase going through it. At the top of the hill is cleric who is the focal target of the encounter. Without flight, the terrain creates a layered challenge which affords skill-users the interesting choice of either trying to punch through the knot of enemies on the stairs or outflanking them and going after the cleric directly. With flight the encounter becomes a brawl in an empty football field, basically. As it turned out, the Ranger and Rogue stealthily took door number two and the rest of the party waited until the two were in position, then assaulted head-on to draw the cleric's defenders away from him.

    Coming up either tomorrow or next session, the party is probably going to be fighting in the canopy of a forest with immense trees. The branches provide a bunch of snaky catwalks which require acrobatics to maneuver at any speed, and the foliage provides cover and concealment that makes ranged combat less effective. Climb lets the players maneuver between levels of the canopy, opening up new paths across the battlefield.

    At too low of a level, the movement challenges in these encounters might be too difficult for even skillmonkeys to succeed at consistently enough, especially challenge 2. The fight would be either a slog or a swingy mess. By around 6th level though, characters who want to be acrobatic are really acrobatic, and can reliably auto succeed on most of these tasks. Getting into the thinner, higher branches is a higher-risk higher-reward proposition that the really talented can consider.

    Or a wizard could just give everybody flight. The other side better have access to flight too then, or this is going to be an ugly rout. Expanding the level space where flight isn't available would expand the number of stories and encounters available by widening the band where a characters bonus to a movement skill is high and also useful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Makes a very good point about ranged attacks.
    Spoiler
    Show
    This is a good point. Keep in mind though, if flight bumps a creature's CR anywhere from 1 to 3 points higher, there should be a very narrow range where the party is facing flying creatures without having access to flight itself. This doesn't perfectly solve the problem though, since the opportunity cost of casting flight relative to other ranged options has increased.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eldaran View Post
    A problem I see is if you have no one to cast flight on you, at the very least you can drink a potion of Fly and have the option of engaging otherwise unreachable enemies. Having Fly be a level 4 spells renders it ineligible for potions. Like others have said, this hurts non-casters more than anyone.
    This is a good point.

    If you want the Climb and Swim skills to get some use, I'd steal from 4th edition. Wrap up Swim and Climb into a general Athletics skill (which also works well as a 'Smash stuff' skill, if you are so inclined), so skill monkeys don't have to spend as much to get some usage out of their skills. Also, combining other skills (I'm looking at you, Disable Device. What, is a lock not a device now?) will probably help more then nerfing a very powerful buff.

    Also, let your players climb the monsters. People love that in my experience.
    I considered it, but because I'm playing with Pathfinder's skill list, I feel like I've already got a pretty well condensed skill list--nobody weeps for you, use rope--too much skill consolidation and you cross back into hurting the skillmonkeys again. Climbing creatures sounds awesome, do you have any advice for making that a possibility? Like Venger says, looking at the available rules, it seems like it'd be a complicated mess. I'll have to scrounge around for "Hammer and Piton."

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    I think you'd be better off adding a grapple maneuver called "ride unwilling mount". Remove size modifiers, treat it like pinned with the exception that the creature can still move(unless you put it over it's encumberance) and you move with it. Maybe throw in a feat "improved ride unwilling mount" that lets you ride mounts of inappropriate size and shape and always land on top of the opponent when they fall out of the sky.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Frozen City
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    So failure to climb leads to the same encounter. That isn't very interesting.

    I don't know if you know this, but I don't have time for the fighter to take off his pants every time I get to a small incline. Any advantage a fighter would have from high strength is canceled out by wearing armor. They aren't good at climbing.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    So failure to climb leads to the same encounter. That isn't very interesting.

    I don't know if you know this, but I don't have time for the fighter to take off his pants every time I get to a small incline. Any advantage a fighter would have from high strength is canceled out by wearing armor. They aren't good at climbing.
    exactly. it penalizes the people who need it least.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    The way I see it is: The main problem with pushing back flight magic further is that it would make the magic items based off those spells that allow the noncasters to keep up w/ the mages to become even more outrageously expensive.

    I can understand not liking how easily available flight is. But on the other hand, if you went to the other extreme and everyone had it, it wouldn't be special anymore.

    I think in general the game fails at the caster/martial paradigm. Martials should have slow/clumsy all day flight and the casters should have limited use tactical flight, if the two groups actually lived up to their "fight all day!" vs. "good at nova", it'd be that way. Instead...casters get both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    exactly. it penalizes the people who need it least.
    You know, there are other martials in the world besides just fighters. We shouldn't decide things just based on what the generic dude in full plate wants. It's not the more thematic and balanced-designed (in terms of having social and combat roles) classes' fault if the full plate fighter sucks at climbing.

    Monks, Rangers, and Rogues would do well if climbing were more useful. Paladins can just get a winged mount.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2015-05-31 at 01:51 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Heavy armor seems pretty much built for splitting the party. You can't sneak, climb, swim or even keep up at a run, hell you even suck at flying.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London, EU
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    As other's have said — pushing back flying is only an issue if the DM makes it one. In a world where flight is delayed presumably the situations where it is required are delayed also ?

    Most of the counter arguments would lead to the logical conclusion that everyone should have flight from level 1. Well you could have a game where everyone play Raptorians or similar I suppose ?

    So this begs the question: at what level should flight be available. In the standard game this is level 5-6, though it tends to be common later than this anyway because of opportunity cost and the shortage of spell slots.

    I don't think it's such a big deal to delay flight so long as the challenges presented reflect this. You could always just make your setting very windy, which would make it less useful anyway, as is the case on certain planes.

    Incidental are you also going to nerf spells which boost climbing, or skills generally ?
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
    Warped Druid Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mendicant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    So failure to climb leads to the same encounter. That isn't very interesting.

    I don't know if you know this, but I don't have time for the fighter to take off his pants every time I get to a small incline. Any advantage a fighter would have from high strength is canceled out by wearing armor. They aren't good at climbing.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Oh whatever, mentioning the fighter was a throwaway comment and siezing on it like it means anything is obnoxious. Besides, in the context where I mentioned it the fighter is in a non-threat situation where he can take ten. He can take the gear off and put it back on in zero game time and everyone is fine. If you're unwilling to handwave his limitations in such a low-stakes situation he probably has much bigger problems anyway, being that he's a fighter and isn't very good at much of anything.

    Personally, I'm playing a modified pathfinder and between MW agile breastplate, armor training, a high strength and the additional ranks per level I gave her, my party's fighter is just fine at climbing "small inclines."

    In the combat application, choosing the climb option and failing leaves you out of position for a round, leaving the encounter's enemies still up differentrankly, the low DC barrier is interesting less because of the low probability of failure, but because you can't take the cleric with you. You can muscle up the path through the caster's minions, giving him more time to cast or escape, but keeping the party better able to cooperate and support each other directly. The flanking option has a different set of risks and rewardOh


    SotS: What if you just didn't make the flying gear more expensive? Wands and scrolls would have to be, and potions would be out, but boots of flying or owlfeather armor could just stay the same price. At higher levels, I agree that flying shouldn't be special, or should at least be easy enough to come by that its not an undue burden, but I don't think that dynamic has to exist so early.
    Last edited by Mendicant; 2015-05-31 at 02:50 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendicant View Post
    SotS: What if you just didn't make the flying gear more expensive? Wands and scrolls would have to be, and potions would be out, but boots of flying or owlfeather armor could just stay the same price. At higher levels, I agree that flying shouldn't be special, or should at least be easy enough to come by that its not an undue burden, but I don't think that dynamic has to exist so early.
    if you want people to just fly by items/grafts/melds/etc instead of spells, then they'll just do that instead. if that's your goal... why bother with this at all? people won't use spells if they can just use items and they aren't specifically disallowed
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mendicant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Incidental are you also going to nerf spells which boost climbing, or skills generally ?
    I mean, I'm not doing anything at all yet, this is more of a thinking out loud exercise at this point. To actually answer your question though: probably not. Spider climb, for instance, makes you good at climbing, but it is very situational, and (at the levels it'd be useful) represents a bigger opportunity cost than investing some ranks. Most skill boosting spells seem like that.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mendicant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    if you want people to just fly by items/grafts/melds/etc instead of spells, then they'll just do that instead. if that's your goal... why bother with this at all? people won't use spells if they can just use items and they aren't specifically disallowed
    If flight doesn't come online as a spell until 7 or 8, and the challenges reflect that, anybody who wants to dump their 6th level WBL into a flying item is welcome to it.
    Last edited by Mendicant; 2015-05-31 at 03:12 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Titan in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London, EU
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendicant View Post
    I mean, I'm not doing anything at all yet, this is more of a thinking out loud exercise at this point. To actually answer your question though: probably not. Spider climb, for instance, makes you good at climbing, but it is very situational, and (at the levels it'd be useful) represents a bigger opportunity cost than investing some ranks. Most skill boosting spells seem like that.
    It's just that a lot of spells trivialise skills.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
    Warped Druid Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mendicant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    It's just that a lot of spells trivialise skills.
    Yeah, but a spell that only makes one skill irrelevant at a time is a lot less of an issue, and they don't alter the game as fundamentally as flight.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Venger, are you seriously arguing that taking away spells hurts mundanes more than spellcasters? If that were true, then the way to fix balance would be to give casters more spells.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Venger, are you seriously arguing that taking away spells hurts mundanes more than spellcasters? If that were true, then the way to fix balance would be to give casters more spells.
    Making more spells, and having each one do fewer things, is definitely one option. Right now the fly spell gives you good maneuverability, a good speed and lets you keep your dex bonus. Doing all those things makes it far better than mundane travel.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Venger, are you seriously arguing that taking away spells hurts mundanes more than spellcasters? If that were true, then the way to fix balance would be to give casters more spells.
    I think the point was that with the increase to spell level, the magical items to make mundanes be able to acquire such increase by a hefty amount, and increase the amount of resources the caster spends to make the mundane worthwhile, and could even make it so casting the spell to make the fighter be able to contribute might not be the best idea tactically. I mean, if you could end the combat or help Boris the Strong and Fair get in a few whacks, what option would YOU pick? Increasing the level of the spells that aids in making the mundanes useful, not feel overshadowed, and helps party cohesion is often a very bad idea. I don't even think any mundane would complain terribly if Haste became a 1st level spell for instance!
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2015-05-31 at 05:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Red Fel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Venger, are you seriously arguing that taking away spells hurts mundanes more than spellcasters? If that were true, then the way to fix balance would be to give casters more spells.
    If Venger isn't, I am. I'll say it explicitly.

    Taking spells from spellcasters hurts mundanes. Here's why.

    The entirety of D&D is built around spells. At higher levels, if your weapons are not magical, they are worthless. If you do not have magical items, your options are sorely limited. The most powerful effects, whether offensive or defensive, are magical. A party without magic will fail, absent a specific decision in the course of designing the campaign to make it low-magic.

    Adding new spells doesn't make casters more powerful. They already have them in abundance. But removing any spell that helps mundanes as well as casters hurts mundanes more than it hurts casters. Casters have options. They have a plethora of options.



    Not now, El Guapo.

    My point is, a mundane's options are limited by what a caster can do, while a caster always has alternatives. Remove one option, the caster can get by; the mundane, on the other hand, suffers.

    That's the point. A caster's options are effectively NI; adding or subtracting one doesn't change them much. But a mundane's options are sorely limited, and removing even one hurts them tremendously.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Venger, are you seriously arguing that taking away spells hurts mundanes more than spellcasters? If that were true, then the way to fix balance would be to give casters more spells.
    I'm saying taking away spells specifically used as a crutch to help mundanes hurts mundanes, since they are now forced to spend their WBL on some stuff to fly. they are already more item-dependent than casters, so that takes away money they could spend on weapon/armor enhancements or utility item like a cloak of displacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    (stuff)
    yeah, that's basically exactly the point I'm trying to convey. thanks.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Yes, you could keep the items the same price, if you're ok with not basing the price on the spell effect's level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Adding new spells doesn't make casters more powerful. They already have them in abundance. But removing any spell that helps mundanes as well as casters hurts mundanes more than it hurts casters. Casters have options. They have a plethora of options.
    My point is, a mundane's options are limited by what a caster can do, while a caster always has alternatives. Remove one option, the caster can get by; the mundane, on the other hand, suffers.

    That's the point. A caster's options are effectively NI; adding or subtracting one doesn't change them much. But a mundane's options are sorely limited, and removing even one hurts them tremendously.
    I couldn't disagree more strongly. And it's that attitude, "what's one more spell going to hurt?" repeated over and over and OVER and OVER that makes the power disparity as bad as it is. Even in "core," those spells didn't just magically appear. They're there as now-legacy sacred cows of the stupid bs that prior editions added to that "plethora" and became popular (usually because they were really strong...you think it's an accident that core is filled with broken spells?).

    What matters is quality, not quantity, if that's what you're trying to say. I could do far more damage to the wizard's power level by banning (across core and all splats) 100 spells of my choosing than by banning 500 of them at random. But it absolutely does affect a caster's power if you add or remove spells, if those spells are at all useful.

    Your argument only works when it's one spell and no more, now or in the future. It fails epically when regurgitated every time an issue is raised with a spell. The OP wasn't even talking about increasing the level cost of just one spell (and definitely not removing them entirely). He intended to increase ALL the flight-granting ones. Which when you include incidental options like Alter Self, is going to be a decent sized list.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    I think the argument also applies more when it is a buff spell that mundanes need in order to do anything in certain fights, like flight. Less so for the class of spells I will now dub 'Reality-Diddling' spells, which...Aren't as benefical to the party as a whole unless they wish to become the god-king's maid or something because he's fixed the problem of the world ending last week. Adding more of the latter is a bad, bad, bad, idea. Adding more of the former? Yeah, technically makes the wizard better, but in such a way that is more likely to increase the usefulness of mundanes, as well as their enjoyment in many cases.

    Overall, I think what the spell does and how it affects the game is a big factor on if it mucks up balance to remove, or can be ditched without problem. Not spells in general, but what they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    I think the argument also applies more when it is a buff spell that mundanes need in order to do anything in certain fights, like flight. Less so for the class of spells I will now dub 'Reality-Diddling' spells, which...Aren't as benefical to the party as a whole unless they wish to become the god-king's maid or something because he's fixed the problem of the world ending last week. Adding more of the latter is a bad, bad, bad, idea. Adding more of the former? Yeah, technically makes the wizard better, but in such a way that is more likely to increase the usefulness of mundanes, as well as their enjoyment in many cases.

    Overall, I think what the spell does and how it affects the game is a big factor on if it mucks up balance to remove, or can be ditched without problem. Not spells in general, but what they do.
    right, but no one's arguing that. no one in this thread is saying "casters need wish/miracle to support melee, they should have more spells in this vein"

    what we're talking about is stuff like magic vestment or enlarge person. spells that basically only exist to give them a leg up.

    Reality-Diddling
    so that's why it's called "bend reality"
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    right, but no one's arguing that. no one in this thread is saying "casters need wish/miracle to support melee, they should have more spells in this vein"

    what we're talking about is stuff like magic vestment or enlarge person. spells that basically only exist to give them a leg up.
    That was more in response to Stream of the Sky. Overall, giving Casters more spells is a typically bad idea, except in the case of buff spells, and some utility spells. There, you get to be an awesome caster without overshadowing Boris. It's not that it is one spell, it is what the spell IS and what it does in gameplay. Which is still why I would not recommend increasing the level of flight, because at that level it might be more efficient to go and whack the flying enemy yourself rather then relying on Boris to be useful because now he needs MORE investment from yourself to do his job. His ONLY job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    That was more in response to Stream of the Sky. Overall, giving Casters more spells is a typically bad idea, except in the case of buff spells, and some utility spells. There, you get to be an awesome caster without overshadowing Boris. It's not that it is one spell, it is what the spell IS and what it does in gameplay. Which is still why I would not recommend increasing the level of flight, because at that level it might be more efficient to go and whack the flying enemy yourself rather then relying on Boris to be useful because now he needs MORE investment from yourself to do his job. His ONLY job.
    I know, I'm agreeing with you. I've been arguing against this idea from the beginning.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Ah, sorry. Seemed like I didn't quite get something across...Again. Sometimes, I think I'm not good at communication. Other times, I know I'm not.

    Through if you want skills to be relevant, maybe a wacky idea would be to have Acrobatics be relevant in controlling yourself? Like the Fly skill, but don't make it caster only and usable for a single type of spell and no other acrobatic feats.

    Then again, I feel as if I just want a game of catapulting rogues into the sky to bounce around the head of a giant creature while the fighter climbs up their flank, preferably while hasted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendicant View Post
    If flight doesn't come online as a spell until 7 or 8, and the challenges reflect that, anybody who wants to dump their 6th level WBL into a flying item is welcome to it.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. When certain spells are overly powerful for their level, positioning them at a higher level puts them in their proper place. I play in a game where the party is currently at 10th level. Of 5 characters, two fly regularly but only recently gained the ability to do so, one can fly but is generally tanking and so chooses not to fly, and two others are completely unable to fly. The game runs fine. The DM doesn't much care for the complexity of aerial combat, so he chooses mostly combats in indoor and dungeon environments. Flying monsters appear occasionally in outdoor combats, but they are generally melee flyers and so getting to grips with them is rarely an issue. In other words, the DM builds encounters to challenge the players, and combat runs smoothly. He's not even having to work hard at it -- he's a busy guy and I know he doesn't spend much time on encounter prep. The game runs fine.

    Now, our group doesn't fly much because of player and DM preference, but if our not-flying was a result of scarce access to flight resources, the effect would be exactly the same. The game would still run fine. I need to respectfully disagree with the consensus crowd here -- regardless of what abstract theorycrafting might seem to suggest, we've got a group that's gamed together from levels 1 to 10 with limited access to flight magic, mundane characters have had their day in the sun, and the DM hasn't had to kill himself holding it together. Now, can disparate access to flight cause problems? Sure, I bet we can imagine a group where it would. Can disparate access to flight be present without causing problems? Yes, we know for a fact that this occurs too.

    Something I'd caution you about Mendicant is that flight access comes from diverse sources. There are warlock invocations, druid wild shape forms, racial feats, grafts, summoned monsters, animal companions, and other sources as well. You'll need to either come up with a simple blanket rule that affects everything at once (hard) or modify dozens of powers across dozens of sourcebooks (tedious and complicated). While I think your plan is good strategically, executing it tactically may prove a challenge.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    I don't know if that really fixes the problem. Your group does not need fly, as you do not encounter flying enemies. That doesn't make the skill more relevant, that means that encounters are geared to not need certain resources that most games do indeed demand. Flight can still be used to bypass climbing challenges or the like, because nothing has changed, these skills are annoying to take and often weaken skill-monkeys for bothering to do so, while casters zip around laughing at the puny mountain for thinking it was an obstacle.

    Also, I don't think relying on Animal Companions, Warlock Invocations or Wildshape really helps the skill-monkeys as opposed to...Well, other casters. Warlocks aren't terribly powerful, I'll give you that, but they tend to be on the castery side of things regardless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    I don't know if that really fixes the problem. Your group does not need fly, as you do not encounter flying enemies. That doesn't make the skill more relevant, that means that encounters are geared to not need certain resources that most games do indeed demand. Flight can still be used to bypass climbing challenges or the like, because nothing has changed, these skills are annoying to take and often weaken skill-monkeys for bothering to do so, while casters zip around laughing at the puny mountain for thinking it was an obstacle.

    Also, I don't think relying on Animal Companions, Warlock Invocations or Wildshape really helps the skill-monkeys as opposed to...Well, other casters. Warlocks aren't terribly powerful, I'll give you that, but they tend to be on the castery side of things regardless.
    Here's the point where I think we're talking past each other. It seems "the problem" is that mundanes can't fly while casters can. But if no one flies, "the problem" doesn't exist. You say that flight bypasses climbing challenges but the absence of flight doesn't make Climb more relevant. I'd respond that the absence of flight makes the Climb skill EXTREMELY relevant to a climbing challenge. You're concerned that "most games" demand flight. but the OP isn't trying to build rules that will function robustly in "most games." He wants rules that work in his game, which will be specifically geared to include challenges that are trivialized by flight but to exclude challenges that demand flight when flight is unavailable. You envision casters zipping around mountains -- but without access to the tools that obviate mountain-climbing, there is no zipping going on. Instead, the skills that are "annoying to take" because they will "weaken" a character are essential for success, and the character who has them gets his day in the sun.

    Let me put it this way. Climb is a pistol. Flight is a gatling laser cannon. When no one has a gatling laser cannon and most make do with knives and clubs, the man with the gun is king.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2015-05-31 at 09:13 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    If you force a man with a gun to take a tennis racket because you have placed a tennis match challenge in front of him, you cannot blame him if he chooses to play the game with the Uzi instead and leave the annoying racket at home.

    If climbing is so essential to success, all you've managed to force the Skill-Monkeys to take a skill that 1) they cannot fail at, else the game ends and 2) reduces their effectiveness in other tasks, and in 99% of cases, they didn't make a skill monkey to climb on stuff. They're probably not taking ranks in climbing because it isn't terribly useful in most cases and they have to weaken themselves to do it. So now you have the double punishment of no flight for mundanes AND you're expected to dump skill points into Climb else your progression won't continue. It is this type of situation that often leads to all Wizard parties in my experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mendicant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    The entirety of D&D is built around spells.
    See, I think that's backwards. Not necessarily untrue, but backwards. Any game, and especially a cooperative game, should be built around the expected challenges, not expected capabilities. That's the core problem people keep raising with pushing back flight -- you need to be able to fly in order to contribute in certain challenges. Well, fine, but I would like to see those challenges pushed back two levels. Nobody with solid ranged options and flight should show up before 7th. Nobody with flight, good ranged weapons, and a way to attack while out of reach of arrows should show up before 10th. Dungeons and other adventure locations should be built in the same way--flight should never be a necessity below a certain level.

    I also don't think you should need spells per se in order to get magic, but that's for a different thread.

    Through if you want skills to be relevant, maybe a wacky idea would be to have Acrobatics be relevant in controlling yourself? Like the Fly skill, but don't make it caster only and usable for a single type of spell and no other acrobatic feats.
    I've kicked this around in my head before too. A systemized way (not necessarily the skill system) to make a lot of buffs strictly better if they're cast on a "mundane" would really improve intraparty dynamics even if it didn't truly address the core balance. Some buffs obviously already work like this--enlarge person is something you cast on the beatstick--but I think you could expand the ambit of buffs that work this way quite a bit. It's not much of a stretch to imagine martial types with a lot of body awareness being better at throwing their weight around once they've been given wings or been turned into a bear. I've never actually sat down and tried to work out a system or edit the 1.5 billion spells though.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Rolling Back Flight

    Perhaps address the problem you see with your players and see if they'd be willing to cooperate, in that if they are interested in a certain option that falls within certain parameters, they bring it up with you? I mean, why bother with the warlock if you have no warlocks? If someone is interested in Polymorphing, get them on board and have them bring potential spells they'd like to take next level to you so you have far less work to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •