De-Tolkienizing D&D

[ProphetSword]

According to Gary Gygax, D&D had very little to do with Tolkien. In an article he wrote in 1985 for Dragon Magazine #95, called "Why Middle Earth Is Not Part of the Game World," he had this to say:

A careful examination of the games will quickly reveal that the major influences are Robert E. Howard, L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt, Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, A. Merritt, and H. P. Lovecraft. Only slightly lesser influence came from Roger Zelazny, E. R. Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, Philip Jose Farmer, and many others.

Though I thoroughly enjoyed The Hobbit, I found the "Ring Trilogy"...well, tedious. The action dragged, and it smacked of an allegory of the struggle of the little common working folk of England against the threat of Hitler's Nazi evil. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Professor's dedicated readers, I must say that I was so bored with his tomes that I took nearly three weeks to finish them.

He said this about Gandalf:
Considered in the light of fantasy action adventure, Tolkien is not dynamic. Gandalf is quite ineffectual, plying a sword at times and casting spells which are quite low-powered (in terms of the D&D game).

And made these points about the races in D&D:
Orc (from Orcus) is another term for an ogre or ogre-like creature. Being useful fodder for the ranks of bad guys, monsters similar to Tolkien's orcs are also in both games.

Trolls,however, are not identified well by the Professor; these game monsters are taken from myth, influenced somewhat by Poul Anderson.

"Hobbit" is another folkword borrowed from legends, but Tolkien personified and
developed these diminutive stalwarts extensively. They, and the name, are virtually unique to his works, and the halflings of both game systems draw substantial inspiration from them.

Dwarves, on the other hand, are well known in Teutonic and Scandinavian myths; here, the Professor and I build upon the same foundation.

Elves are likewise creatures of lore, and perhaps the most extensively treated of them all. In legend they are small or tall, good, evil, uncaring, silly, bright, and so on. Tolkien had them taller, more intelligent, more beautiful, and older than humans; in fact, he made them quite similar to the fair-folk, the fairies. The elves of the AD&D game system borrow two names (gray and wood) from the Professor's writings, and that is nearly all. They are shorter than humans, and not generally as powerful. There are various ethical alignments amongst them, though most are neutral-good in outlook with strong tendencies of individuality (chaos, in game terms).



Take these comments as you will.

Also, this text was reprinted from Dragon Magazine #95, and I'm sure someone owns that copyright (likely Wizards of the Coast), so hopefully I'm not stepping on any toes quoting sections of it here. Obviously, the original article is much longer and much more detailed, and I encourage you to read it if you want more information.

[Mr. Mask]

That's probably more to do with arrogance than honesty. There was a lawsuit issued against DnD in relation to it using copyrighted material like hobbits, balrogs, etc., because they had the gall to sue someone for imitating these or other properties in their setting.

[Kitten Champion]

That's probably more to do with arrogance than honesty. There was a lawsuit issued against DnD in relation to it using copyrighted material like hobbits, balrogs, etc., because they had the gal to sue someone for imitating these or other properties in their setting.

You can question his motives, but he did freely claim in the same article that he used related names and some surface details as a way of marketing D&D to Tolkien readers. Which, given a lot of what's been expressed in this thread, would explain the dissonance between the Tolkien-related elements and the rest of the game's mechanics and campaign settings.

[Mr. Mask]

True. I've never seen that much similar to Tolkien's work and DnD to begin with, despite the borrowed elements.

[Zaydos]

I am inclined to believe Gygax based on having read all the authors save A. Meritt and having found more of their stuff in AD&D, 2e, and B/C/E/M/I than I have found of Tolkien.

Though orcs are straight ripped from Tolkien, Gygax, orcs are straight ripped from Tolkien.

[Karl Aegis]

I am inclined to believe Gygax based on having read all the authors save A. Meritt and having found more of their stuff in AD&D, 2e, and B/C/E/M/I than I have found of Tolkien.

Though orcs are straight ripped from Tolkien, Gygax, orcs are straight ripped from Tolkien.

Are you trying to tell me Gruumsh was an elf this entire time?

[Steampunkette]

Easy Answer

Reflavor everything out of Europe, make the races barely recognizable and swap their rolls around heavily. Dwarves become forest dwelling hairless marauders. Elves become twisted mirrors of humanity, capricious and cruel. Halflings become sewr dwelling subhuman cannibals. Goblins replace halflings and trolls replace dwarves in human society. Orcs become druids who are deeply tied to nature.

Or you could just play Dark Sun, Eberron, or some Ravenloft.

[Zaydos]

Are you trying to tell me Gruumsh was an elf this entire time?

No, but orc as a human sized evil army is Tolkien plain and simple. They're one of the few things I will concede was full on ripped from Tolkien.

Easy Answer

Reflavor everything out of Europe, make the races barely recognizable and swap their rolls around heavily. Dwarves become forest dwelling hairless marauders. Elves become twisted mirrors of humanity, capricious and cruel. Halflings become sewr dwelling subhuman cannibals. Goblins replace halflings and trolls replace dwarves in human society. Orcs become druids who are deeply tied to nature.

Or you could just play Dark Sun, Eberron, or some Ravenloft.

I had a setting where dwarves were dwarves were forest dwelling psychic not quite marauders (I was young so they ended up noble savages who were mistaken as marauders because they thought civilized humans were evil) they also had human length legs and were narrower than normal (they were 6" taller than mountain dwarves). Is that close enough?

[VoxRationis]

Are you trying to tell me Gruumsh was an elf this entire time?

No, but Gruumsh clearly has his roots in Sauron. His symbol is a single, baleful eye, ever-staring, a motif commonly found as the symbol of the followers of Sauron. In 3rd edition, he's mentioned as being one-eyed due to having had the other eye put out in a fight, but in the 2nd edition Deities and Demigods, he's depicted as a cyclops, thereby emphasizing the single staring eye, and in the 3rd edition PHB, an alternate name for him is "He-Who-Never-Sleeps", mirroring the theme of constant vigilance embodied in the description of the Eye of Sauron as "lidless." I'm guessing some of the first orc encounters in D&D probably had them refer to things like "He-Who-Never-Sleeps" and using the eye as a symbol, but then they had to quickly think up a less-Tolkienesque deity to avoid lawsuits.

[Kitten Champion]

Though orcs are straight ripped from Tolkien, Gygax, orcs are straight ripped from Tolkien.

Sure, but in the end, they're just faceless mobs for you to slaughter without a twinge of guilt.

He also brought Half-Orcs in as a PC race, which is interesting given the above statement.

[Marlowe]

There's (a) Half-Orcs in LoTR, although they're like BARELY there. They're more sneaky and skulky than "dumb bruiser", but that's because Tolkien Orcs are more sneaky than strong.

[erikun]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but a good question to ask yourself is: Why?

Why is there a desire to de-Tolkienize the D&D system? I can perfectly understand if you are going for a certain vision or intent with the ruleset, and that vision isn't compatable with Tolkien. If you have a setting with no elves, or where elves are a class of fae and not humanoid, then removing the Tolkienish elves would be a good thing.

However, outside that I don't see much point in the activity. D&D is sort of a mismash of different settings anyways, and there is no reason to de-Tolkienize D&D to prevent Tolkienish characters than there is a need to de-Xanthize D&D or de-LeGuinize D&D or de-Vanceize D&D. If people want to play those character concepts in a D&D game, then I don't see much reason to deny it.

[Karl Aegis]

So you found out about Le Guin.

[Kitten Champion]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but a good question to ask yourself is: Why?

Why is there a desire to de-Tolkienize the D&D system? I can perfectly understand if you are going for a certain vision or intent with the ruleset, and that vision isn't compatable with Tolkien. If you have a setting with no elves, or where elves are a class of fae and not humanoid, then removing the Tolkienish elves would be a good thing.

However, outside that I don't see much point in the activity. D&D is sort of a mismash of different settings anyways, and there is no reason to de-Tolkienize D&D to prevent Tolkienish characters than there is a need to de-Xanthize D&D or de-LeGuinize D&D or de-Vanceize D&D. If people want to play those character concepts in a D&D game, then I don't see much reason to deny it.

Denying people anything is not really the point of the thread. It's more to fulfill a sense of curiosity as to how Tolkien affected D&D and what would left if one were to pull that string until it unravelled. Since Tolkien is such an enormous presence in the modern genera fiction it's more of a complex and potentially interesting exercise than addressing Piers Anthony's or Ursula Le Guin's impact.

Investigating Jack Vance's influence and finding alternatives to them might be interesting however, Robert Howard's as well.

[Marlowe]

So you found out about Le Guin.

Burn the Witch!

[erikun]

So you found out about Le Guin.

Earthsea was one of the more interesting books I read when I was a child. I was familiar with Le Guin for long before I became familiar with D&D.

[Wardog]

No, but orc as a human sized evil army is Tolkien plain and simple. They're one of the few things I will concede was full on ripped from Tolkien.

Tolkien orcs aren't human sized, though. From memory, the "great orc cheiftain" that skewered Frodo in Moria was "almost Man-high". Most orcs were smaller (probably dwarf-sized, I expect).

Also, doesn't D&D typically treat orcs as "barbarians" or "savages" rather than soldiers? Living in small tribal villages, with primative technology, sending out small raiding parties, but only uniting into large "hordes" occasionally under a powerful and charismatic leader. Whereas Tolkien orcs live in cities of sorts (captured human or dwarf fortresses, or underground warrens of their own construction), and though somewhat ill-disciplined generally operate as actual soldiers, and are capable of using (and inventing) technology.

The very basic concept of "orc = hostile mook race" comes from Tolkien, but the actual characterisation is wildly different from D&D.

[VoxRationis]

Tolkien orcs aren't human sized, though. From memory, the "great orc cheiftain" that skewered Frodo in Moria was "almost Man-high". Most orcs were smaller (probably dwarf-sized, I expect).

Also, doesn't D&D typically treat orcs as "barbarians" or "savages" rather than soldiers? Living in small tribal villages, with primative technology, sending out small raiding parties, but only uniting into large "hordes" occasionally under a powerful and charismatic leader. Whereas Tolkien orcs live in cities of sorts (captured human or dwarf fortresses, or underground warrens of their own construction), and though somewhat ill-disciplined generally operate as actual soldiers, and are capable of using (and inventing) technology.

The very basic concept of "orc = hostile mook race" comes from Tolkien, but the actual characterisation is wildly different from D&D.

Eh, to some degree. Remember that the "soldier" orcs we see in Lord of the Rings are press-ganged or purpose-bred by powerful individuals with substantial magical abilities. When left to their own devices, they tend to hole up and act in much pettier ways.

[Daedroth]

Tolkien orcs aren't human sized, though. From memory, the "great orc cheiftain" that skewered Frodo in Moria was "almost Man-high". Most orcs were smaller (probably dwarf-sized, I expect).

Also, doesn't D&D typically treat orcs as "barbarians" or "savages" rather than soldiers? Living in small tribal villages, with primative technology, sending out small raiding parties, but only uniting into large "hordes" occasionally under a powerful and charismatic leader. Whereas Tolkien orcs live in cities of sorts (captured human or dwarf fortresses, or underground warrens of their own construction), and though somewhat ill-disciplined generally operate as actual soldiers, and are capable of using (and inventing) technology.

The very basic concept of "orc = hostile mook race" comes from Tolkien, but the actual characterisation is wildly different from D&D.

Because "Tolkien orcs" are not "D&D orcs", they are "D&D Hobgoblins"

[Zaydos]

Because "Tolkien orcs" are not "D&D orcs", they are "D&D Hobgoblins"

Nah, Tolkien's orcs and D&D orcs both live in small villages, usually taking over underground settlements of other races, and occasionally coming together into hordes under a charismatic leader (it's in Thorin's backstory). Neither are soldiers, at best being press ganged into it, and both act primarily as raiders and bandits.

Tolkien's Uruk-hai (implied to possibly be what were called hobgoblins in the Hobbit) are D&D Hobgoblins.

And the whole orcs using tech was from the movies, so that's not Tolkien's orcs that's Jackson's orcs (trying to emphasize the Isengard = Industry idea).

[Talakeal]

And the whole orcs using tech was from the movies, so that's not Tolkien's orcs that's Jackson's orcs (trying to emphasize the Isengard = Industry idea).

The goblins in the Hobbit were depicted as being very interested in technology, particularly stuff that explodes.

[Marlowe]

Nah, Tolkien's orcs and D&D orcs both live in small villages, usually taking over underground settlements of other races, and occasionally coming together into hordes under a charismatic leader (it's in Thorin's backstory). Neither are soldiers, at best being press ganged into it, and both act primarily as raiders and bandits.

Tolkien's Uruk-hai (implied to possibly be what were called hobgoblins in the Hobbit) are D&D Hobgoblins.

And the whole orcs using tech was from the movies, so that's not Tolkien's orcs that's Jackson's orcs (trying to emphasize the Isengard = Industry idea).

Mordor Orcs (not Uruk-hai) live in barracks. They have ID numbers (The Witch King of Angmar is "Number One"). It's implied they're kept in line with a secret police/informer system. They moan a bit about what they would do if there weren't any "bosses" around, but they're definitely more the product of a modernist totalitarian system than they are tribal barbarians.

[VoxRationis]

Right, but all that is imposed on them by a supernatural god (I know, not technically a god) of evil and his bevy of supernatural minions. Those guys could mandate the wearing of clown noses and the recitation of Emily Dickenson and the orcs would still have no choice but to go along with it.

[Marlowe]

"...because I would not stop for death he asked for my ID..."

[Forrestfire]

I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, so someone tell me if this has been mentioned already, but what's there to remove? No wait, hear me out!

I'm not trying to deny that there are things that definitely feel like Tolkien's stuff (orcs and elves, dwarves, hobbits...), but if you look into the settings, you don't really get anything resembling Lord of the Rings at all:

• Greyhawk: One of the most kitchen sinkiest of settings, it has everything from superficially Tolkien-like stuff, towns ranging from dirt farmer villages to high magic cities, time travel, divine politics, rayguns, space aliens and other inhabited planets (iirc there's even a spaceport run by beholders)... Oerth is weird. Really, really weird. Even without tying it into Planescape through its cosmology, you've got an incredibly weird and un-Tolkien world with a whole solar system to explore orbiting around it. There's an interplanar spaceship-castle piloted by a dragon god, forest elves living in an asteroid cluster, a gas giant inhabited by dragons, several interplanetary wars worth of history, and a bunch of strange anomalies to Boldly Go to, etc.
• Forgotten Realms: Another massive kitchen sink, albeit one I'm not quite as familiar with. However, the sheer amount of meddling that the gods have done in Faerun and the amount of magic that's being passed around in Faerun seems significantly higher than in LotR. There are also the other, decidedly un-Tolkien settings that exist in Toril, like Al-Qadim (D&D arabian nights) and Kara-tur (Toril's version of East Asia).
• Eberron: 1000 words.
• Ravenloft: A demiplane ruled by Bad Things that grab heroes out of their own realities to solve occasional problems and in the process ruin the days of the darklords some more. It's simultaneously a Horror setting and a setting about trying to be Good regardless of how crappy it might be at times. Genre conventions of normal D&D are changed because of the constant danger and paranoia needed to survive, and it's probably best played in games where the characters are probably small fish in a big, scary, zombie-filled pond.
• Dark Sun: The ɢʀɪᴍ ᴅᴀʀᴋɴᴇss brightness of the far future Athas, there is only ɢʀɪᴍᴅᴀʀᴋ. Terrifying cannibal halflings, arcane magic is outlawed, psionics all around, and overall, a significantly more brutal world than LotR or even other D&D settings. There's a joke I heard a while back about an Athasian who managed to make his way to the Abyss. Something like:
  
  Athasian: "This place is paradise!"
  Other guy: "It's raining fireballs!"
  Athasian: "Yeah, it's raining!"
  You don't find this sort of grimdark in Middle Earth.
• Planescape: Take all of the above and mash them up. Lots and lots of the standard D&D stuff is flipped on its head, and even more of it is played hilariously straight. Interplanar politics, weird, weird monsters, the occasional spaceship, and the possibility of everyone being a fish out of water. The Clueless prime material residents don't know what they're missing, really.

Anyway, my point is, if you removed all the blatant Tolkien (or even the non-blatant Tolkien) from D&D, you'd probably end up with stuff that's still recognizably D&D, because the settings themselves are so far removed from Middle Earth that they're not really comparable except on the most superficial of levels. Sure, there are definitely some things that feel Tolkien-esque or are pretty blatantly inspired by them, but if you remove the Tolkien from the equation, there's enough left over that not much changes.

[TheCountAlucard]

Right, but all that is imposed on them by a supernatural god (I know, not technically a god) of evil and his bevy of supernatural minions.

"A superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes."

Superhuman? Check.
Being or spirit? Check.
Worshipped as having power over nature? Dunno about that one.
Worshipped as having power over human fortunes? I seem to recall he was by at least some people, though it depends whether or not orcs count.

He may not be an Extraplanar Outsider with bundles of Hit Dice, spell-like abilities/spells, Divine Ranks, and the ability to grant spells to clerics, but I'd say he's close enough to the definition.

[VoxRationis]

I was referring to "god" by Tolkienian definition, not D&D.

[Milo v3]

I was referring to "god" by Tolkienian definition, not D&D.

Well, that's the dictionary definition, not D&D's. Sorry

[TheCountAlucard]

I was referring to "god" by Tolkienian definition, not D&D.

Considering this is an RPG forum, it's often helpful to double-check, but yeah, Sauron fits exactly with the dictionary definition of a god.

[Keltest]

Considering this is an RPG forum, it's often helpful to double-check, but yeah, Sauron fits exactly with the dictionary definition of a god.

As does Morgoth, though in Tolkien mythology they are more like angels and Archangels than full on gods. I assume the parallels were deliberate.