How is Redcloak intending to kill Xykon?

[Keltest]

So... I have a question. Can the Dark One actually, you know, open the gates? Because that seems like a rather crucial detail that has never been addressed. In DCF Xykon had trouble opening it because of the various wards on it, but since then everything about it has been within context of the ritual granting control over where it goes, whatever Xykon may think. Presumably the gate needs to be removed for the Snarl to get through, but wouldn't that also void the Dark One's control over the rift?

[Peelee]

Here, panels 9, 10 and 11 is exactly what Redcloak thinks the ritual does (unless he was lying) and what the plan is.

One day I'll read my own links. Thanks!

[kivzirrum]

So... I have a question. Can the Dark One actually, you know, open the gates? Because that seems like a rather crucial detail that has never been addressed. In DCF Xykon had trouble opening it because of the various wards on it, but since then everything about it has been within context of the ritual granting control over where it goes, whatever Xykon may think. Presumably the gate needs to be removed for the Snarl to get through, but wouldn't that also void the Dark One's control over the rift?

Perhaps TDO's assuming that he can teleport the gate, smash it, and the Snarl will be let out of its cage? Hmm. I really don't know.

[Keltest]

Perhaps TDO's assuming that he can teleport the gate, smash it, and the Snarl will be let out of its cage? Hmm. I really don't know.

I feel like that's sort of an important detail to work out.

[kivzirrum]

I feel like that's sort of an important detail to work out.

I suppose we'll find out if the Plan is ever successful Maybe TDO has some other tricks up his sleeve!

Or maybe he knows more than he thinks he does and he ends up getting Snarl'd first. Whoops.

[Gift Jeraff]

So... I have a question. Can the Dark One actually, you know, open the gates? Because that seems like a rather crucial detail that has never been addressed. In DCF Xykon had trouble opening it because of the various wards on it, but since then everything about it has been within context of the ritual granting control over where it goes, whatever Xykon may think. Presumably the gate needs to be removed for the Snarl to get through, but wouldn't that also void the Dark One's control over the rift?

The ritual "loosens" the Gate, allowing the Dark One to plane shift it to other deities' domains as well as allowing for the Snarl to pass through. At least that's what Redcloak imagines in SoD.

[veti]

I feel like that's sort of an important detail to work out.

It's probably an important detail for the Dark One to work out, assuming his plan is anything like your theory. But not so much for us, we'll see when the time comes, and it won't make a ha'porth of difference whether you or I correctly anticipated it or not.

Chill. We don't have any information on this subject, nor any avenues for investigating it. Like, none at all. Even "speculation" at this point is basically fanfic.

[Fish]

Xykon got beat by a low-level fighter and got (pretty much) beat by a bunch of Deathless creatures. He's not that powerful, he couldn't take on a god.

Xykon was beaten by the defensive wards of an epic-level wizard with months or years or decades of time to plan, and by an epic-level paladin who was immune to Xykon's best shtick. We have seen since that Xykon has the power to build an ethereal superfortress. Who really knows what power he does and doesn't have?

I believe that the ending of the story will be unorthodox. We are set up to think that it's Roy vs Xykon, and they'll save the day, and so on, but I have a pet theory that I can't seem to shake.

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Seriously, if this is correct, it spoils the entire ending.

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Redcloak succeeds in destroying the gods. The HPOH succeeds in wiping out the high priests of the other gods. Roy is forced to use his new spellcaster sword move against Durkon.

But the bad guys win. The only god remaining is the Dark One. Almost — maybe Hel, maybe not.

So how does the Dark One get destroyed? Something must do it. I figure it has to be Xykon; nobody else can.

So how does this story have a happy ending? We know Elan, at least, gets one. I think it's obvious: the Banjo Pantheon takes over.

It would be so, so awesome to see Banjo smite Redcloak.

Also, you have the greatest avatar ever.

Why thank you! Most people don't seem to notice. :)

[Keltest]

It's probably an important detail for the Dark One to work out, assuming his plan is anything like your theory. But not so much for us, we'll see when the time comes, and it won't make a ha'porth of difference whether you or I correctly anticipated it or not.

Chill. We don't have any information on this subject, nor any avenues for investigating it. Like, none at all. Even "speculation" at this point is basically fanfic.

Lack of information is hardly a barrier in forums that DONT go out of their way to be as outrageous as possible with their speculation. I hardly see why that should stop us, of all people.

[littlebum2002]

Xykon was beaten by the defensive wards of an epic-level wizard with months or years or decades of time to plan, and by an epic-level paladin who was immune to Xykon's best shtick. We have seen since that Xykon has the power to build an ethereal superfortress. Who really knows what power he does and doesn't have?

A god>>>epic-level deathless Paladin. If Xykon can't defeat Soon, he can't come close to defeating a god.

[Peelee]

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Redcloak succeeds in destroying the gods. The HPOH succeeds in wiping out the high priests of the other gods. Roy is forced to use his new spellcaster sword move against Durkon.

But the bad guys win. The only god remaining is the Dark One. Almost — maybe Hel, maybe not.

So how does the Dark One get destroyed? Something must do it. I figure it has to be Xykon; nobody else can.

So how does this story have a happy ending? We know Elan, at least, gets one. I think it's obvious: the Banjo Pantheon takes over.

It would be so, so awesome to see Banjo smite Redcloak.

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Why would the vampire need to take out the high priests, if the gods are dead? I mean, story-wise, he wouldn't know that Redcloak's Plan has death of gods as a possibility, but once the gods are dead, the clerics just become not-as-good-Fighters. Even with the gods staying alive, what would taking out the high priests do (assuming the vampire could manage it)?

[Fish]

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Why would the vampire need to take out the high priests, if the gods are dead? I mean, story-wise, he wouldn't know that Redcloak's Plan has death of gods as a possibility, but once the gods are dead, the clerics just become not-as-good-Fighters. Even with the gods staying alive, what would taking out the high priests do (assuming the vampire could manage it)?

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I have no idea why the HPOH is trying to find the convocation of high priests; I assume it's to disrupt, destroy, or compromise those priests somehow, or to shift the balance of power in Hel's favor. (We've heard about the deity convention and separation-of-powers agreement before, so maybe the HPOH has something planned along these lines.) The Giant hasn't revealed that part of the story, so I can't explain it, nor can I explain in D&D or story terms what the difference between a "high priest" and an ordinary cleric is. I do think that whatever disruption the HPOH has planned will work, precisely because it raises the stakes for the story and increases the tension.

I also speculate whether Hel isn't aware of Redcloak's actual plan. For one thing, Roy's team (and Durkon) doesn't know Redcloak's exact plan either; for another, she might take the whole "god-slaying monstrosity" more seriously if she knew that's what Roy's team was setting out to prevent. Certainly the vampire wouldn't necessarily want his clerical power to vanish by letting his goddess get unmade.

[Doug Lampert]

But, see, Gobbotopia means they *already have a place*. If Redcloak wasn't so up his own posterior he'd realise that, and also realise that the best way to ensure goblinoids keep their place is politically--get everyone to acknowledge that Gobbotopia is a *thing*. The remains of the Azurites and their primary allies are on the other side of the ocean and aren't likely to be a significant threat for a long time to come.

Problem is, Redcloak is so obsessed with the Plan that he doesn't realise it's no longer necessary, so he'll keep following it even if he dooms Gobbotopia and the rest of his species to eternal oblivion thereby.

In the Start of Darkness Right Eye demonstrated that the plan was totally unnecessary.

Look, a goblin village, the closest we see the nearby humans doing to viciously attacking them by doing things like going to the circus with them.

Then Wrong Eye and the undead he CLAIMS is just a tool show up, and "rescue" them from all that. By killing them all.

Gee, thanks. Which is the greater threat to goblin peace and security? Redcloak, or the various claimed enemies he claims to be protecting them from?

The only "unprovoked" attack we've seen on a goblin village was launched to kill their high priest, who was engaged in a plot to let loose the snarl. What's the greatest threat here?

Yeah, makes you wonder if "as theological revelations go, I guess that's refreshingly direct" was meant to be sarcastic.

Though knowing Redcloak, it's probably safe to assume that he interpreted "this" as the Plan regardless of what the Dark One actually intended.

(I'd personally be very surprised if it turned out TDO is less of a "hardliner" on the Plan than Redcloak, though).

Presumably the dark one knows enough about his high priest to know how he'd take that order. Which means that TDO doesn't care about Goblintopia, which I find not at all surprising.

Redcloak is at best a misguided extremist, this doesn't work nearly as well as a story if it turns out that the goal he's working for is actually achievable by the methods he's using and his only mistake was not to bring the right hammer/recruit the right arcanist.

If TDO really cares about goblins then Redcloak could quite reasonably die thinking he'd done the right thing and that the only problem was that he lost, and a sufficiently inattentive reader might agree with him. Redcloak needs to be SHOWN to be wrong about what would happen if the ritual were used, which means it needs at some point to be SHOWN that TDO is actually indifferent to the actual welfare of actual individual goblins.

For TDO and Redcloak to both ignore Goblintopia helps establish that they AREN'T really working for the welfare of actual, real, living goblins. They're at best working for the welfare of hypothetical goblins that exist only in their heads at the COST of those real, actual goblins they don't care about.

[SirKazum]

The only "unprovoked" attack we've seen on a goblin village was launched to kill their high priest, who was engaged in a plot to let loose the snarl. What's the greatest threat here?

Waaaait. Wait wait wait. Do you mean the start of Start of Darkness (Start² of Darkness)? With the paladins and stuff? Because I think that has nothing to do with the high priest or the Snarl. IIRC, the paladins/Sapphire Guard/Azure City knew nothing about the Crimson Mantle, what it does, or the Plan. Otherwise your point stands, yeah - while Redcloak has done good things for gobbokind (building a large and apparently prosperous nation has to count IMO), on the other hand he's also been a major threat to the welfare of gobbokind himself, what with his extremism and all.

And as for The Dark One and what he actually believes is best (going ahead with the Plan or supporting initiatives like Gobbotopia, or if the Plan is even supposed to benefit goblinoids at all anyway), we don't know, but I think it's interesting to speculate that he might not be that invested in gobbokind's welfare at all. I dunno, what little we know of him as a character makes it seem to me he was far too megalomaniac and practical. I can definitely see him mustering his loyal followers for the purpose of accomplishing a Plan that serves only himself, making him the greatest of all gods.

[Keltest]

Waaaait. Wait wait wait. Do you mean the start of Start of Darkness (Start² of Darkness)? With the paladins and stuff? Because I think that has nothing to do with the high priest or the Snarl. IIRC, the paladins/Sapphire Guard/Azure City knew nothing about the Crimson Mantle, what it does, or the Plan. Otherwise your point stands, yeah - while Redcloak has done good things for gobbokind (building a large and apparently prosperous nation has to count IMO), on the other hand he's also been a major threat to the welfare of gobbokind himself, what with his extremism and all.

And as for The Dark One and what he actually believes is best (going ahead with the Plan or supporting initiatives like Gobbotopia, or if the Plan is even supposed to benefit goblinoids at all anyway), we don't know, but I think it's interesting to speculate that he might not be that invested in gobbokind's welfare at all. I dunno, what little we know of him as a character makes it seem to me he was far too megalomaniac and practical. I can definitely see him mustering his loyal followers for the purpose of accomplishing a Plan that serves only himself, making him the greatest of all gods.

The paladins pretty definitely know about the Mantle and are at least cursorily aware of the potential ramifications of the Plan. That's what they launched the crusade over in the first place. If I recall correctly there was some prophecy or other that told them bad things would happen because of the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (ie Redcloak).

[Jasdoif]

The paladins pretty definitely know about the Mantle and are at least cursorily aware of the potential ramifications of the Plan. That's what they launched the crusade over in the first place. If I recall correctly there was some prophecy or other that told them bad things would happen because of the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (ie Redcloak).

Well, they know there's a connection, but they don't know the Crimson Mantle has a non-symbolic role in the whole thing:

It is not generally known by non-goblins that the physical cloak itself is the source of the power. To the paladins, the title "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" just means that the guy who wants to destroy reality gets to wear a red cloak. Since they don't know that the cloak is what they are actually seeking, they have never actually "gotten hold of it" at all, not in any meaningful way. It has always been passed down just before being captured. It's only existed for about 60 years, remember, and Redcloak has owned it for half of that. So it's only been passed along 3-4 times. In all of those cases, either the goblins managed to swipe it off of the corpse of the old Bearer before the paladins noticed, or they stole it back before the paladins could identify its significance.

[kivzirrum]

Interesting. Where--besides that quote--does it say the Crimson Mantle has only existed for 60 years? I seem to have missed that detail in my many readings of Start of Darkness and the comic proper.

[ti'esar]

Interesting. Where--besides that quote--does it say the Crimson Mantle has only existed for 60 years? I seem to have missed that detail in my many readings of Start of Darkness and the comic proper.

SOD establishes that the Crimson Mantle was created after the holes in the Snarl's prison began appearing, with the very first Bearer being killed by the Order of the Scribble. That was about 60 years ago, although I can't remember immediately where that date has been established.

[Keltest]

SOD establishes that the Crimson Mantle was created after the holes in the Snarl's prison began appearing, with the very first Bearer being killed by the Order of the Scribble. That was about 60 years ago, although I can't remember immediately where that date has been established.

In the Crayons of Time section, however it doesn't mesh very well with Shojo's age.

[Peelee]

Interesting. Where--besides that quote--does it say the Crimson Mantle has only existed for 60 years? I seem to have missed that detail in my many readings of Start of Darkness and the comic proper.

Spoiler: SoD

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Start of Darkness, page 41, panel 3 states that a goblin discovered a rift 35 years ago. The Crimson Mantle was created shortly after (as per page 43). Redcloak is telling the story as of 30 years ago. Assuming Year 0, Day 0 is the online strip 001, this would put the Crimson Mantle at a little under 70 years, actually.

[SirKazum]

Well, they know there's a connection, but they don't know the Crimson Mantle has a non-symbolic role in the whole thing:

That's what I meant. So yeah, the paladins do know at least a vague notion of the Plan, just not what the Crimson Mantle itself entails. My bad.

[Edric O]

If TDO really cares about goblins then Redcloak could quite reasonably die thinking he'd done the right thing and that the only problem was that he lost, and a sufficiently inattentive reader might agree with him. Redcloak needs to be SHOWN to be wrong about what would happen if the ritual were used, which means it needs at some point to be SHOWN that TDO is actually indifferent to the actual welfare of actual individual goblins.

What makes you think that the story needs to show Redcloak to be unambiguously wrong about everything?

Why can't Redcloak be, in fact, right as far as the general outline of The Plan is concerned, and only be wrong about some of the specific steps he took to achieve it (such as recruiting and empowering Xykon)?

Personally, I think it would be an awesome twist ending if it turns out that The Plan can actually succeed as intended, and, after defeating Xykon, the Order is placed in the moral dilemma of having to decide whether to [a] allow The Plan to go ahead (knowing it will probably make the world a better place, but then again might destroy the world instead) or [b] stop The Plan and (somehow) at the same time destroy Gobbotopia and crush the hopes of the goblinoid races.

I like endings that don't give the hero(s) any perfect option to have everyone live happily ever after.

[Keltest]

What makes you think that the story needs to show Redcloak to be unambiguously wrong about everything?

Why can't Redcloak be, in fact, right as far as the general outline of The Plan is concerned, and only be wrong about some of the specific steps he took to achieve it (such as recruiting and empowering Xykon)?

Personally, I think it would be an awesome twist ending if it turns out that The Plan can actually succeed as intended, and, after defeating Xykon, the Order is placed in the moral dilemma of having to decide whether to [a] allow The Plan to go ahead (knowing it will probably make the world a better place, but then again might destroy the world instead) or [b] stop The Plan and (somehow) at the same time destroy Gobbotopia and crush the hopes of the goblinoid races.

I like endings that don't give the hero(s) any perfect option to have everyone live happily ever after.

Things like that really only work then the person making the choice has some reason to consider option B something other than perfectly acceptable. Rich's views on fantastic racism aside, what reasons do the OOTS have to care about the goblinoids? Except for maybe V, who is significantly more conscientious of these things of late, none of them have any particular reason to be concerned with making their lives... well, not more miserable, really, but bringing them back down to the level they were at before they killed Azure City. Belkar is evil, Durkon is pseudo-racist (he gets combat bonuses from his hatred of goblins), Roy is almost certainly vengeful, Haley was actively plotting their downfall, and Elan doesn't think about things on that scale.

[Edric O]

Things like that really only work then the person making the choice has some reason to consider option B something other than perfectly acceptable. Rich's views on fantastic racism aside, what reasons do the OOTS have to care about the goblinoids? Except for maybe V, who is significantly more conscientious of these things of late, none of them have any particular reason to be concerned with making their lives... well, not more miserable, really, but bringing them back down to the level they were at before they killed Azure City. Belkar is evil, Durkon is pseudo-racist (he gets combat bonuses from his hatred of goblins), Roy is almost certainly vengeful, Haley was actively plotting their downfall, and Elan doesn't think about things on that scale.

That's a very good point, but presumably there will be events between now and the end of the comic that will make the Order understand Redcloak's motivations a lot better.

I mean, I really doubt that the Order will remain completely ignorant of the nature of the Xykon-Redcloak relationship until the very end. They have to learn more about their opponents at some point. And when that happens, some of them may well start looking at goblins more sympathetically.

Also, presumably Belkar will be dead before any kind of Final Choice At The End Of The Story has to be made. He may survive until the final battle, but I think it's out of the question for him to still be alive even after the final battle.

[Peelee]

What makes you think that the story needs to show Redcloak to be unambiguously wrong about everything?

Why can't Redcloak be, in fact, right as far as the general outline of The Plan is concerned, and only be wrong about some of the specific steps he took to achieve it (such as recruiting and empowering Xykon)?

Personally, I think it would be an awesome twist ending if it turns out that The Plan can actually succeed as intended, and, after defeating Xykon, the Order is placed in the moral dilemma of having to decide whether to [a] allow The Plan to go ahead (knowing it will probably make the world a better place, but then again might destroy the world instead) or [b] stop The Plan and (somehow) at the same time destroy Gobbotopia and crush the hopes of the goblinoid races.

I like endings that don't give the hero(s) any perfect option to have everyone live happily ever after.

I cannot see how anyone who would risk the lives and souls of every living being on the planet for a chance that the world might be a slightly better place could possibly describe themselves as either good or heroes.

They wouldn't make a bet they can't afford to lose.

[Porthos]

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Redcloak succeeds in destroying the gods. The HPOH succeeds in wiping out the high priests of the other gods. Roy is forced to use his new spellcaster sword move against Durkon.

But the bad guys win. The only god remaining is the Dark One. Almost — maybe Hel, maybe not.

So how does the Dark One get destroyed? Something must do it. I figure it has to be Xykon; nobody else can.

So how does this story have a happy ending? We know Elan, at least, gets one. I think it's obvious: the Banjo Pantheon takes over.

It would be so, so awesome to see Banjo smite Redcloak.

Truly no offense meant, but I think I might rage quit if anything like that happened.

Not really a fan of the True Art is Angsty school of thought, tbh. Sure, Angsty Art can be great. And is great in measured doses. But just don't get the feeling that OOTS is headed in that direction.

Oh, I dobut it will be an unambiguously happy ending. There's a fair amount of room for some bittersweetness, I think. But I also think, on the whole, there will be a satisfactory ending for most of the actors present in the play.

Call it a gut feeling (or hope ).

[Edric O]

I cannot see how anyone who would risk the lives and souls of every living being on the planet for a chance that the world might be a slightly better place could possibly describe themselves as either good or heroes.

They wouldn't make a bet they can't afford to lose.

That depends on what exactly they are betting, and what the odds of losing are.

At this point we know that there is something important about the Snarl that none of the (mortal) characters know. The planet inside the rifts is clearly a game-changer of some kind - we just don't know how it will change the game.

So, before we get to the end, it may well turn out that The Plan isn't risking anyone's souls, for example (while still risking their lives).

[Peelee]

That depends on what exactly they are betting, and what the odds of losing are.

At this point we know that there is something important about the Snarl that none of the (mortal) characters know. The planet inside the rifts is clearly a game-changer of some kind - we just don't know how it will change the game.

So, before we get to the end, it may well turn out that The Plan isn't risking anyone's souls, for example (while still risking their lives).

Assume souls are safe, then. The ante is the lives of every living being on the planet. The odds are anything less than 100%. Still sounds to me like writing a check your ass can't cover.

[Porthos]

So, before we get to the end, it may well turn out that The Plan isn't risking anyone's souls, for example (while still risking their lives).

Does that change the fact that A) Redcloak thinks it does and B) is totes cool with it?

[BaronOfHell]

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So how does the Dark One get destroyed? Something must do it. I figure it has to be Xykon; nobody else can.

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The Snarl.