afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[afroakuma]

Once more unto the breach, with the sixth thread in the still-popular series. Having noted a tendency for questions to get beyond Planescape very quickly, I've accepted the inevitable and put it up in the title. We have now had five such threads, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for loads and loads of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of twenty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

This time, I'd like to ask regulars to submit any selections from past threads that they found particularly valuable, noteworthy or otherwise useful to have linked in this first post. If there's a past answer or article or other element from one of these threads that you liked, please bring it to my attention in-thread or via PM.

Once again, the fundamentals:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something. This is especially relevant since I've just moved a second time and had to repack all of the material; research now involves me jumping into the storage... corridor thing... to knock boxes around.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

• There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

• This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• I've been finding it convenient to concoct terminology for the major PC races and their most common foes. The term "proud races" refers to the most commonly encountered modern civilized races of the Prime Material Plane: humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings. The terms "vilekith" and "vile races" refer to the most commonly encountered modern barbarous races of the Prime Material Plane: gnolls, goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and ogres.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

• Zargon is not an ancient baatorian. That is all.

Happy questioning!

[GilesTheCleric]

This is, surprisingly, my first post to one of these threads, so I hope I'm doing the "other oddities" bit right.

Q1:What can you tell me about the FR deity Kiputytto, who was apparently usurped by Talona? What domains does Kiputytto have, or where might I go for more information?

Q2:The faerunian pantheon was made of five or more pantheons that merged, including the Netherese pantheon, Talfiric pantheon, Jhaamdathan pantheon, Coram****e pantheon, as well as others like the Untheric pantheon. What other pantheons merged into the faerunian one, and are there some detailed lists of the deities of each?

Q3: Is the Eberron deity Kalok Shash "the binding flame" a cult of The Silver Flame? The two are compared directly in the entry on Kalok Shash, but it's never said explicitly.

[Tzardok]

Well here we go again,
it's always such a pleasure.

For the beginning I'd like to ask about the Vast Medium. The only thing I found about it is from your Expedition to the Far Realm snippets. So I ask: What is it?

Besides I'd like to know about the realm of Fae/Fairy. Where is it? In what way interacts it with the Great Wheel? Is there more about it than what is written in Manual of the Planes?

[Sian]

Q4: which (if any) playable races exists natively on the positive plane other than Lumi?

[pwykersotz]

Are there any sources which have (at least somewhat) detailed information about general locations in Stygia other than Ankhwugat or Sheyruushk? I found something called the Black Kingdom on the internets on which I can't find any info.

The reason for asking is my gamers will be visiting Stygia soon for certain reasons, and I have plenty of details regarding Tantlin and certain specific sites, but far less about territories in general. I'd like to be able to tie in their story to something bigger.

And if there are no significant sources, do you have any suggestions on what canonical information not to run afoul of while creating new territories?

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm about to start Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, which places the PC's in Sigil several times (it is a base, of sorts) throughout the adventure. I have a few questions about Sigil's portals, and exactly how they work.

Each portal needs a key, but it could be physical objects, a thought held in the traveler's mind, anything...

Q5: Once activated by the correct key, how long does the portal remain open?

For example, if the key is a cold iron dagger, does the portal remain open only for the holder of said dagger as he passes through (which would mean each PC needs his own cold iron dagger)? Or would one cold iron dagger open the portal for a short time, allowing a party to pass through with only one physical key?

Q6: In the case of a physical object serving as the key, does the object pass through the portal unharmed? Or is it consumed in passing through the portal?

[atemu1234]

What situations would cause a Demon Lord and an Archdevil work together?

[afroakuma]

Q1:What can you tell me about the FR deity Kiputytto, who was apparently usurped by Talona? What domains does Kiputytto have, or where might I go for more information?

Kiputytto was a demipower, one of the interloper Finnish deities who established themselves in Faerun (others include Loviatar and Mielikki). Known as the Mother of the Plague, she made her realm, Feculence, on Cathrys, second layer of Carceri. Her holy symbol was a battered metal bowl over a flame, and her alignment was chaotic evil. In a time long ago, Kiputytto waged war with Talona over the portfolio of disease. Each sent plague and disaster into the city of Asram, one of the surviving enclaves of Netheril. Kiputytto's plague was by far the more successful, but its wake of death resulted in fewer voices able to pray to her for mercy, and she lost the battle. Kiputytto appeared as a black-skinned and heavily-scarred crone; her worshipers frequently bore heavy scarring as well. Her domains are unknown, as is her favored weapon.

Q2:The faerunian pantheon was made of five or more pantheons that merged, including the Netherese pantheon, Talfiric pantheon, Jhaamdathan pantheon, Coram****e pantheon, as well as others like the Untheric pantheon. What other pantheons merged into the faerunian one, and are there some detailed lists of the deities of each?

We don't have a fully comprehensive list, or even decent lists, of the fragmentary pantheons of Faerun. I would expect that in addition to those listed, the unidentified others referred to are meant to indicate the interloper deities who have become key elements of the Faerunian pantheon. Fans at Candlekeep have been working on sorting these out, of course, and some fairly good ideas on the matter can be fou

Q3: Is the Eberron deity Kalok Shash "the binding flame" a cult of The Silver Flame? The two are compared directly in the entry on Kalok Shash, but it's never said explicitly.

In D&D canon, whatever is not said explicitly, especially in such an oblique fashion, is intended for the individual DM to decide.

For the beginning I'd like to ask about the Vast Medium. The only thing I found about it is from your Expedition to the Far Realm snippets. So I ask: What is it?

The Vast Medium, such as it might be, would be the "intermultiversal medium" that enfolds and separates all multiverses.

Besides I'd like to know about the realm of Fae/Fairy. Where is it? In what way interacts it with the Great Wheel? Is there more about it than what is written in Manual of the Planes?

This was addressed in a previous thread, I believe. Please do a search. If you don't find anything, I'll address any questions you still have.

Q4: which (if any) playable races exists natively on the positive plane other than Lumi?

Glimmerskins are technically playable, though with an ECL that high you wouldn't want to. You're asking an awful lot to even hope for "native to an energy plane," let alone a playable one. Vivacious creatures would also qualify and are an easier route, although that LA is ugly.

Are there any sources which have (at least somewhat) detailed information about general locations in Stygia other than Ankhwugat or Sheyruushk? I found something called the Black Kingdom on the internets on which I can't find any info.

I assume you mean other than the diabolical holdings, since those are obvious. I don't find any reference to a "black kingdom" that pertains to Stygia the D&D planar layer. Some infernal locations can be found in FCII. The only divine realm other than those you know is The Steadfast Chill, realm of the Cerilian goddess Kreisha.

And if there are no significant sources, do you have any suggestions on what canonical information not to run afoul of while creating new territories?

Levistus is in charge, Geryon used to be... not sure what you could really get off center here, as long as you remember it's by and large a friddly cold place.

Each portal needs a key, but it could be physical objects, a thought held in the traveler's mind, anything...

Q5: Once activated by the correct key, how long does the portal remain open?

Depends upon the portal, but almost always long enough for a traveler to pass through. In many cases of a keyed portal, the portal will only be open for those bearing the key. Remember, a portal is not necessarily like a door - it can be effectively a "state" that authorizes certain entrants to pass on to other destinations. You and I might be tied together and leaping into the same portal sideways and it will only admit you because you bear the key.

For example, if the key is a cold iron dagger, does the portal remain open only for the holder of said dagger as he passes through (which would mean each PC needs his own cold iron dagger)? Or would one cold iron dagger open the portal for a short time, allowing a party to pass through with only one physical key?

Depends upon the portal. If unspecified, you may rule as you choose.

Q6: In the case of a physical object serving as the key, does the object pass through the portal unharmed? Or is it consumed in passing through the portal?

Dependsupon the portal. I'd adjudicate based on the thematics of the portal - are you planting a seed that blooms into a doorway? Consumed. Tracing a line with a silver dagger? Probably not, but who knows? Maybe the dagger melts and becomes the boundary of the portal.

What situations would cause a Demon Lord and an Archdevil work together?

Well, if the Archduke of Chocolate and the Demon Lord of Peanut Butter were combined...

[Naanomi]

I understand the infinite nature of the planes makes the 'how are there infinite Gods' not that big of a problem but...

Gehenna has infinite space but limited land to put stuff. Assuming the Gods are at least somewhat distributed in their Outer Planes habitation, how is Gehenna not wall-to-wall Divine Realms of petty Gods from backwater Primes trying to make a home there? Are some Gods (an infinite number I suppose) forced to make their lairs in the void between earthburgs? Or does Gehenna uniquely have a limited number of Gods living on it?

[Tzardok]

As Gehenna's earthburgs are infinitly high, so that you can never reach the top nor the root of the vulcane, I don't see your problem.

[atemu1234]

Well, if the Archduke of Chocolate and the Demon Lord of Peanut Butter were combined...

Maybe I should specify...

What enemies would be powerful enough to forge a temporary alliance between an Archdevil and a Demon Lord?

[enderlord99]

You and I might be tied together and leaping into the same portal sideways and it will only admit you because you bear the key.

...And also because the Lady doesn't like beings as powerful as you are in Sigil in the first place, so you wouldn't be able to enter. Right?

[afroakuma]

I understand the infinite nature of the planes makes the 'how are there infinite Gods' not that big of a problem but...

Gehenna has infinite space but limited land to put stuff. Assuming the Gods are at least somewhat distributed in their Outer Planes habitation, how is Gehenna not wall-to-wall Divine Realms of petty Gods from backwater Primes trying to make a home there? Are some Gods (an infinite number I suppose) forced to make their lairs in the void between earthburgs? Or does Gehenna uniquely have a limited number of Gods living on it?

Some few gods do in fact live on private little islands in the void, but the vast majority reside on one of the mounts. While the land has an "edge," it is still a component of an infinite plane; Khalas, Chamada, Mungoth and Krangath are all circumferentially infinite, so it's not really all that crowded. How does that even work? Outer Planes.

I should mention, most gods who inhabit Gehenna maintain their realms on the first two furnaces. Mungoth and Krangath, as with many other "deep" layers, have far fewer permanent residents.

What enemies would be powerful enough to forge a temporary alliance between an Archdevil and a Demon Lord?

The very notion is kind of absurd.

...And also because the Lady doesn't like beings as powerful as you are in Sigil in the first place, so you wouldn't be able to enter. Right?

Oh I would most definitely not be allowed into Sigil.

[Werephilosopher]

Isn't there a set distance between the Spire and the edge of the Hinterlands? How can infinite divine realms be fit into that area? Or do some deities in the Outlands make their realms in the Hinterlands?

[Oryan77]

How much control does a person have when controlling matter on Limbo?

More specifically:

1. Can he shape the terrain however he wishes (i.e., create a field of earth with a 10-ft mound, a 10-ft pit, a raging river, a 5-ft flaming firepit, and strong winds all within the limits of the area)?

2a. Is there gravity within the controlled matter?

2b. Does the creator have control over the gravity?

2c. Can the creator change the direction of gravity so that it is different within different 5-ft squares?

3. Can he change the terrain whenever he wishes (i.e., create a small hill underneath himself during combat to give himself higher ground, or create a pit under an enemy to cause him to fall...perhaps making the pit have stone spikes for extra affect, or dismiss air within an area to suffocate enemies)?

I just ran a session that takes place in Limbo; first time using the plane. And these were questions that came up during the first combat. My players have a (frustrating) habit of trying to figure out how they can take advantage and "beat the system" at every turn. I should have seen this coming and verified these things long ago.

[afroakuma]

Isn't there a set distance between the Spire and the edge of the Hinterlands? How can infinite divine realms be fit into that area? Or do some deities in the Outlands make their realms in the Hinterlands?

As noted above, it's a property of the Outer Planes that gross distances don't really matter. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the distance between the Spire and the Hinterlands is 5 miles in every direction. Mathematically speaking, we should expect the habitable area of the Outlands to be, at maximum, 78.54 square miles. But on the books we have... what's this? 150 square miles of documented locations! And what's that place on the horizon that doesn't look like anything on record...?

The Outer Planes are realms of belief; they don't conform to any need for fixed areas to exist. While certain spatial relationships are more stable than others, it's far more likely that on the Outer Planes the distance between Strangeland and Otherplace is literally "two days' travel" than that it is any fixed distance in miles or kilometres or linear tessipates or foot-cubits. While there is a fixed distance between the gate-towns and the Spire or the gate-towns and the Hinterlands, all that area in between is whatever it needs to be for whoever is traveling.

How much control does a person have when controlling matter on Limbo?

Very little, and not for long. Control is little more than selecting and mixing element-dominant traits - you can create a lump of earth surrounded by air, or a ball of fire encased in earth, or possibly even a little island rock in a larger pool of water with a small dome of air above. Fine control and the capacity to "mix" elements are beyond most minds; only the very rare minds known as anarchs have the capacity to effect real control over shapes and structures, and there's no test to be one - you either are (DM's discretion) or you are not.

1. Can he shape the terrain however he wishes (i.e., create a field of earth with a 10-ft mound, a 10-ft pit, a raging river, a 5-ft flaming firepit, and strong winds all within the limits of the area)?

No.

2a. Is there gravity within the controlled matter?

Limbo's normal gravity rules apply. The individual controlling matter in a given area has no influence on the subjective gravity of others.

3. Can he change the terrain whenever he wishes (i.e., create a small hill underneath himself during combat to give himself higher ground, or create a pit under an enemy to cause him to fall...perhaps making the pit have stone spikes for extra affect, or dismiss air within an area to suffocate enemies)?

A non-anarch cannot effect such changes. X-dominant or X-and-Y dominant with very primitive shapes are the extent of control.

I just ran a session that takes place in Limbo; first time using the plane. And these were questions that came up during the first combat. My players have a (frustrating) habit of trying to figure out how they can take advantage and "beat the system" at every turn. I should have seen this coming and verified these things long ago.

Yeah, don't run combat in Limbo. The whole thing where they fly 10-40 feet in a random direction every round through terrain they can barely see through at the best of times which all shifts randomly in 25-foot radius bubbles every 1-10 minutes from open air to solid rock to pure flame that deals 3-30 damage to those exposed and sets them on fire... even with attune form or avoid planar effects you can still get encased in rock and unable to usefully accomplish anything. The rules for Limbo were decidedly slapdash, more's the pity.

In case they attempt it, they also can't attempt to annihilate structures in Limbo, as they can only control the chaos matter, not anything built with actual materials.

[Oryan77]

only the very rare minds known as anarchs have the capacity to effect real control over shapes and structures.

Thanks for the replies! So with that in mind, what if the person controlling the area was an Anarch (they hired an Anarch as a guide). How would you answer those questions in terms of the controller being an Anarch with minimum Anarch abilities (Wisdom around 20-22)?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what kind of control a person would have in Limbo depending on how good he was at controlling.

[afroakuma]

Thanks for the replies! So with that in mind, what if the person controlling the area was an Anarch (they hired an Anarch as a guide). How would you answer those questions in terms of the controller being an Anarch with minimum Anarch abilities (Wisdom around 20-22)?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what kind of control a person would have in Limbo depending on how good he was at controlling.

Anarchs are capable of creating structures and even basic vegetation. The spell perinarch, from the Planar Handbook, gives some examples of introductory complex control, but points out that whatever is accomplished would offer a Reflex save to avoid. Anarchs cannot:

• Create void pockets without air. Something must occupy that space.
• Impose gravity upon others.
• Create exotic elements (no osmium, no poison).
• Create sentient life.
• Control specific conditions of shaped area (cannot make it freezing cold, cannot control weather)

Anarchs can:

• Create walls of earth, water or fire (Reflex to avoid)
• Create pit traps or pits filled with flame (Reflex negates, although subjective gravity)
• Raise or lower terrain

So I would recommend:

• Adding a major feature (wall, pit, difficult terrain) is a standard action.
• Adjusting terrain for a tactical advantage should be adjudicated with a small ad-hoc circumstance bonus or penalty.

Odds are that fighting in an anarch's region of control is far less terrible than fighting in raw Limbo, so overall it's a mercy. Remember that any protections against Limbo (attune form, etc) also apply against some forms of anarch-shaped trolling (fire in particular, but anything that emulates elemental dominance applies).

[Xuldarinar]

Given the existence of an infinite number of deities, at least for all intents and purposes, is there anything that absolutely no deity would support, let alone approve of?

[Tzardok]

Most, if not all deities are against ur-priests (who steal divine magic from the gods) and binders (who communicate with the beings called vestiges and get magic from binding those into their soul and body). Besides that I can imagine that the Athar (who believe that deities are frauds and work to expose them) are in most deities bad books.

[Eldan]

Wasn't there a quote in one of teh books (Outlands, probably), that said that the distance between any two landmarks on the Outlands is always something like 3d6 days?

Like, travel from A to B? 3d6 days. Travel from B to C: 3d6 days. Travel from C to D, also 3d6 days. Directly from A to D? Also 3d6 days. In straight lines.

[ksbsnowowl]

Wasn't there a quote in one of teh books (Outlands, probably), that said that the distance between any two landmarks on the Outlands is always something like 3d6 days?

Like, travel from A to B? 3d6 days. Travel from B to C: 3d6 days. Travel from C to D, also 3d6 days. Directly from A to D? Also 3d6 days. In straight lines.

3.0 MotP, on the Outlands, states that the ring or portal cities is roughly 1,000 miles from the Spire. But outside that range is mutable. Outside that ring of cities, you are always within 4d8 x 10 miles from at least one portal city. It even gives an example of walking 2,000 miles straight out from the Spire, and still being a maximum of 320 miles from a portal city.

[afroakuma]

Given the existence of an infinite number of deities, at least for all intents and purposes, is there anything that absolutely no deity would support, let alone approve of?

The Macarena.

[Extra Anchovies]

Why are Spelljammers used? What stops characters with sufficient resources from just using Greater Teleport and/or Greater Plane Shift (from your starting point, to any other plane, then back to the starting plane but at the intended destination) to move between planets?

[enderlord99]

Why are Spelljammers used? What stops characters with sufficient resources from just using Greater Teleport and/or Greater Plane Shift (from your starting point, to any other plane, then back to the starting plane but at the intended destination) to move between planets?

This has been asked before, and the answer is 42 too many pieces of too-large cargo.

[Forrestfire]

Isn't it also significantly harder to travel through the phlogiston via teleport than it is through spelljamming helm?

[enderlord99]

Isn't it also significantly harder to travel through the phlogiston via teleport than it is through spelljamming helm?

Yes. It's downright impossible; my response referred exclusively to the double-planeshift version.

[Brookshw]

Ah that new thread smell!

Question for you 'Fro, celestial jails. We have Elysium and its Prisoner, there appears to be some jail on Celestia that gets used for souls and possibly other. What's the general outlook in your perspective on the Celestial predisposition on imprisoning people and/or souls. Any additional Canon you recall offhand?

[afroakuma]

Why are Spelljammers used? What stops characters with sufficient resources from just using Greater Teleport and/or Greater Plane Shift (from your starting point, to any other plane, then back to the starting plane but at the intended destination) to move between planets?

This has been addressed in prior threads, but the short version is: fewer high-level casters available to act as glorified space ferries than there are spelljammers to do so, cargo, large numbers of passengers, the option of intersphere travel, etc.

Also you reeeeally don't want to find out about anti-teleportation protections in space the hard way.

[Extra Anchovies]

This has been addressed in prior threads, but the short version is: fewer high-level casters available to act as glorified space ferries than there are spelljammers to do so, cargo, large numbers of passengers, the option of intersphere travel, etc.

Also you reeeeally don't want to find out about anti-teleportation protections in space the hard way.

Thanks (both to you and for everyone else who answered). Sorry for asking an old question, I'll search the past threads next time.