afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[afroakuma]

Also, if if Primus is supposedly on the level of a greater deity while in Mechanus in AD&D 2e, then why is he distinctly killable in the listed climate/terrain of Mechanus? Very powerful, but still killable.

Cause it specifically says so: "Within Mechanus, Primus has the status of a greater power, except it is possible for Primus to die." He's not actually a deity, just a godlike being. He lacks salient divine abilities, for instance, and has no divine realm. That's putting aside that in older editions, gods were notably easy to deck, they just had a bad habit of being Just A Doombot or popping back up rather quickly.

Finally, in-universe, what happened to Baphomet, Demogorgon, Kostchtchie, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu for them to lose their status as true powers in the transition from 2e to 3.X?

They were never supposed to be gods to begin with. Monster Mythology upjumped them and On Hallowed Ground skated back and forth on it, likely because the authors were looking for gods to list and just nabbed whatever was lying around already. Kostchtchie in particular was a questionable choice given that the frost giants already have a patron god - Thrym. Anyway, in-universe, if you need a reason, blame it on the multiversal shift. Solves a lot of problems.

I've been thinking about the move of Menausus/Nemausus from Arcadia to Mechanus and have some questions about it:

1) Do we have any evidence of any other planar layer making a move like that in the past? Casualties of the Law/Chaos War?

Nope.

2) Could a planar layer become 'too neutral' and 'migrate' to the Outlands?

Ehhhhh... it's not impossible, theoretically, but it's about as close as you can get. I'd expect you simply can't nudge something toward true neutrality because unlike, say, the lawfulness of Arcadia, true neutrality is never there to begin with. Mechanus, Elysium, Hades and Limbo aren't any closer to true neutrality than Celestia or the Abyss - they are just even closer to the extremes they represent. Hence "Great Wheel," not "Great Square."

3) Are there currently any other Planar layers at risk of 'moving'?

No.

4) Even if none are at risk, which planar layers even have the potential?

Of them all, only a few layers of the Abyss might be possible to move at the moment, to Carceri or Pandemonium. No, I don't know which ones; I just know that the Abyss in particular would be a comparatively easy place for it.

~I'd also guess that the 'first layer' of any plane is too important structurally to the Outer Planes to really move, regardless of circumstances

The first layer is the most fundamental understanding of the plane and what it represents. As long as the plane itself has reason to be unique, the first layer will remain.

Some places that seem to be 'at risk' potentially... Belierin doesn't seem particularly 'Good'

That Belierin can stay where it is while containing such a fundamental evil is a testament to Elysium's incredible nature. Belierin does not seem "good" because there are forms of good that often go unaccounted for; it is a place of glowing mist, of sandbars and mangroves, of lighthouses that provide welcome and succor. It is the birthplace of good that is willing to resist good - a terrible burden, perhaps, but one that Belierin is suited for. There is only one documented divine realm on Belierin, though given its nature and that of the layer, one suspects there are many others, for it is the Refuge of Night, home of the goddess Nut.

Mithardir/Pelion seems to be a pretty Neutral place overall, neither really Chaotic or Good to me

Pelion is a place of grief, loss, sorrow and remembrance. It is peace and tranquility, but also possibility and danger. A silent frontier, waiting for its lost treasures to be restored, for songs to be sung and for inspiration to take hold. It is a land for nomads, those who would lead lives of good but want to fully eschew the trappings of civilization.

Etc.

[Brookshw]

I wonder if the Harmonium will eventually cause Arcadia to stop existing entirely.

...That's probably about a -9, now that I think about it.

Iirc the Harmonium already recognized the consequences of their actions when they lost a layer and were working to correct themselves. How successful will they be in that is unknown but in so far as they're aware of the problem their actions are causing and actively working to fix their schtick I assume they won't spell Arcadia's doom.

[Adslahnit]

1. Would you happen to know of any canonical spell, artifact, creature, location, or other effect that converts raw destruction, decay, or entropy (not necessarily negative energy) into pure creative energy? If so, what is it?

2. Aside from Pandorym, the Quicksilver Hourglass, and perhaps Tharizdun, what other canonical artifacts and creatures are designed/ingrained to destroy the multiverse and will probably succeed (or partially succeed) at doing so if unleashed?

[Tzardok]

What is the Quicksilver Hourglass?

[Adslahnit]

What is the Quicksilver Hourglass?

The Quicksilver Hourglass is an adventure from Dungeon #123 and an artifact of the same name. If it is brought into the Prime, the result is, to quote the adventure, "every living thing on that plane experiences 100 years of aging per round."

It will not quite obliterate the multiverse, but with very few mortals around in the Prime, most deities will wither away, and the Outer Planes will most likely reset to nearly blank slates.

[Khedrac]

1. Would you happen to know of any canonical spell, artifact, creature, location, or other effect that converts raw destruction, decay, or entropy (not necessarily positive energy) into pure creative energy? If so, what is it?

Hmm, not sure if this makes it into the Planescape interpretation of Mystara, but technically the Nucleus of the Spheres after the Old One intervention in the adventure path from Wrath of the Immortals (which was the re-written Immortals rules for BECM/Cyclopedia D&D) fits this.

It started as a Nuclear Reactor.
It got meddled with and ended up as an artifact (probably) that, whilst causing radiation poisoning, could elevate mortals directly to Empyreal status (err, call it Lesser Deity status).
However to do this it was slowly draining magic from the world.
Various things happened as a result of this and the Old Ones noticed and stepped it and altered it to draw directly from Entropy.
At this point the one immortal (well lesser god) known to have been elevated by it got sucked in to it, fate unknown but presumed alive.

Note: interfering with this is a very, very bad idea; if the Old Ones notice and decide to take action there is nothing anyone can do about it. These guys are aspects of the game world way above the most powerful gods and goddesses (and Pun-pun) - if you come up with a defense that relies on the rules they will bypass it - they are beyond the games rules (so aleax of yourself? - unmade just like that if they can be bothered).

[Adslahnit]

Elder Evils, page 129 states: "The Herald 'believes' the wizard intends to plunge a sphere of annihilation into the well of many worlds and thus erase the world and perhaps all worlds."

Elder Evils, page 143 states: "Although the procedure Edwin uses to release the Worm that Walks should succeed, it has other unforeseen consequences. The sphere becomes a 'black hole,' annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes."

Does it really take only a sphere of annihilation and a well of many worlds to delete all of the Prime? Why has someone (probably a Doomguard) not already done so?

[enderlord99]

All those methods only affect one sphere anyway. At most!

[Adslahnit]

All those methods only affect one sphere anyway. At most!

I was under the assumption that "the Material Plane" included all crystal spheres.

Is this incorrect?

After all, Chapter 4 of the 3.0 Manual of the Planes sets only one Material Plane per cosmology; any alternate Material Planes "have their own unique cosmologies."

[Tzardok]

That is because the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does not include crystal spheres. From our (Planescape influenced) view, every setting is in one crystal sphere on the same Material Plane. From "Manual of the Planes"-point of view, every setting is its own Material Plane, with its own cosmology. That is also the base everything in 3.0 and 3.5 is derived from. So "Material Plane in 3.0"="Crystal sphere in Planescape (or Spelljammer or whatever)" isn't very farfetched.

[Adslahnit]

That is because the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does not include crystal spheres. From our (Planescape influenced) view, every setting is in one crystal sphere on the same Material Plane. From "Manual of the Planes"-point of view, every setting is its own Material Plane, with its own cosmology. That is also the base everything in 3.0 and 3.5 is derived from. So "Material Plane in 3.0"="Crystal sphere in Planescape (or Spelljammer or whatever)" isn't very farfetched.

What of the various worlds mentioned in sources such as the Fiendish Codices and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits that are most certainly not part of Greyspace?

[Tzardok]

I hadn't thought of that...

In Lords of Madness the neogi and the tsochar are mentioned as being from different planets on the same Material Plane (without making any mention of crystal spheres), so... other planets?

[DCDC420]

They're not actually incorrect when they say "different planets", strictly speaking.

[afroakuma]

1. Would you happen to know of any canonical spell, artifact, creature, location, or other effect that converts raw destruction, decay, or entropy (not necessarily negative energy) into pure creative energy?

Such a thing may well exist, but I can't think of anything offhand.

2. Aside from Pandorym, the Quicksilver Hourglass, and perhaps Tharizdun, what other canonical artifacts and creatures are designed/ingrained to destroy the multiverse and will probably succeed (or partially succeed) at doing so if unleashed?

Okay, I'm going to need to take a time out here to address the Quicksilver Hourglass, an adventure I've never before bothered to read but was at best vaguely aware of.

This adventure, an epic-level romp by a first-time Dungeon author, is not canonical.

And that's about it.

Elder Evils, page 129 states

...lots of garbage. No force known can damage a crystal sphere, which would stop a black hole from eliminating "all existence" rather nicely, to say nothing of the limited impact it would have given the vastness of wildspace. Once more, a poor author contributing to that book is causing headaches.

As was already observed, 3.X products had a bad tendency to view "the world you play on" as the Material Plane and nothing else, due to a change in creative direction that segregated the various settings to prevent continuity lockout and give each world its own identity. Unfortunately, they also tapped many of the same authors who had worked on earlier successful products in lines where this was not the case, or who were adapting bigger concepts and notions without conforming to this view. Therefore, they kept talking about the broader multiverse as a setting - planes, planets, gods, monsters - because it's more interesting.

Neither Pandorym nor the Quicksilver Hourglass nor Edwin Tolstoff combining a minor artifact with an 82,000 gp magic item are at any risk of destroying all reality.

[Adslahnit]

Neither Pandorym nor the Quicksilver Hourglass nor Edwin Tolstoff combining a minor artifact with an 82,000 gp magic item are at any risk of destroying all reality.

What about Tharizdun?

Would the Sphere of Annihilation + Well of Many Worlds trick eradicate a single crystal sphere?

Also, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does mention other planets in its description of the default Material Plane, "Oerth," so even under that design direction in 3.X, there are indeed multiple planets in a single "Material Plane." The Pandorym section of Elder Evils also mentions Pandorym potentially destroying the "Material Plane" one world at a time.

[enderlord99]

What about Tharizdun?

If (and that's a big "if) he somehow escaped the inescapable demiplane where he's held, he would probably destroy the contents of Grayspace (the sphere with Oerth in it) and severely damage those of a few other spheres. All sphere walls would remain fine, because that's how spheres work.

Would the Sphere of Annihilation + Well of Many Worlds trick eradicate a single crystal sphere?

Define "eradicate." It could probably empty one, but then again maybe not...[/QUOTE]

[Naanomi]

What happens to an object caught in the space when a natural portal on a crystal sphere closes. Does it make a difference if it is indestructible (a shard of the broken sphere let's say) or intangible? What if it is a sphere of annihilation?

[Bronk]

That is because the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does not include crystal spheres. From our (Planescape influenced) view, every setting is in one crystal sphere on the same Material Plane. From "Manual of the Planes"-point of view, every setting is its own Material Plane, with its own cosmology. That is also the base everything in 3.0 and 3.5 is derived from. So "Material Plane in 3.0"="Crystal sphere in Planescape (or Spelljammer or whatever)" isn't very farfetched.

Also, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does mention other planets in its description of the default Material Plane, "Oerth," so even under that design direction in 3.X, there are indeed multiple planets in a single "Material Plane." The Pandorym section of Elder Evils also mentions Pandorym potentially destroying the "Material Plane" one world at a time.

Aside from teasers in Lords of Madness, Spelljamming is also mentioned for 3.5 in Dragon 339, Dungeon 92 / Polyhedron 151, and the Spelljammer itself is mentioned in The Grand History of the Realms on page 93.

Other planets and moons that were more prominent in the Spelljammer setting are mentioned briefly in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting as well.

[afroakuma]

What about Tharizdun?

Tharizdun could likely wipe out a whole crystal sphere if released and left unchecked.

Would the Sphere of Annihilation + Well of Many Worlds trick eradicate a single crystal sphere?

There's no such trick. A sphere of annihilation making contact with a well of many worlds would, at worst, have the same effect as the standard gate interaction. Not positive for anyone nearby, but it won't wipe a crystal sphere by any means.

Also, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does mention other planets

I promise you I am aware. If you have a point to make, I fail to see it. Nobody cares if Kule gets unraveled.

What happens to an object caught in the space when a natural portal on a crystal sphere closes.

Shunted to one side or the other.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's no such trick. A sphere of annihilation making contact with a well of many worlds would, at worst, have the same effect as the standard gate interaction. Not positive for anyone nearby, but it won't wipe a crystal sphere by any means.

Elder Evils begs to differ. Here's its description of what happens when a SoA enters a WoMW:

The sphere becomes a “black hole,” annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes.

Unless, of course, you're already aware of that and your interpretation is that the black hole only forms if Kyuss is released, and the SoA entering the WoMW just happens to be the means of performing the latter.

[enderlord99]

Elder Evils begs to differ.

Elder Evils says a bunch of stupid stuff. What's your point?

[Adslahnit]

What truly does falls under the category of beings, artifacts, and effects that stand a very good chance of emptying the contents of multiple crystal spheres, and are intended/designed to do so?

[Extra Anchovies]

Elder Evils says a bunch of stupid stuff. What's your point?

I was making sure afroakuma was aware of that passage from EE, and wondering what his take on it was. No need to be rude.

[afroakuma]

Elder Evils

Is a terrible book. I categorically deny that anything it says matters if it's going to be that poorly thought out and lazily edited.

What truly does falls under the category of beings, artifacts, and effects that stand a very good chance of emptying the contents of multiple crystal spheres, and are intended/designed to do so?

I have no interest in searching up any materials on this topic at this time. You may look into previous threads to see if answers are available there, or wait until such a time as I am no longer feeling confrontational about this topic and try your question again.

[Gralamin]

I was thinking of ideas for planar threats for fun and stumbled upon an idea I like. While I'm likely to stat these things up anyway, I was wondering if they even made sense with how planes work.

Can an idea become awakened and aligned with a plane, without materializing any sort of form? Could a theory or formula become aware on Mechanus and hide itself away in others heads to spread itself, to try and possibly achieve itself? Could Limbo spin the very inklings of ideas into a similar form, which could spread through people like wildfire, distorting as it went? Or would this sort of being usually manifest as an exemplar of the plane?

For that matter, are there any good sources to read about psionics and the planes?

[WalkingTheShade]

Could a theory or formula become aware on Mechanus and hide itself away in others heads to spread itself, to try and possibly achieve itself?

2nd Ed Planescape had the Moigno.

More to the point of your post, I have kinda the same preoccupations about the planes. However, Planescape tends to do what you describe with incarnated metaphors; the whole philosophers with clubs schtick. Planescape is often described as post-modern fantasy. However, the underlying assumption that ideas and faith, when shared by enough people, can take a life of their own, eventually turning against their originators, smells strongly of modernism.
So yeah, usually, it seems that ideas become powers or exemplars. I'd imagine it to be possible for something to take root, not enough to become incarnate, but enough to want to become incarnate, trying to convince people of its own necessity.
We need a meme monster : D

[Brookshw]

Is it known what or who caused the collapse of the Reigar civilization? If no Canon is available speculation is fine.

I've come across "Leviathan Ghost Ships" in relation to spell jammer but have no idea what they are. What are they?

[afroakuma]

Can an idea become awakened and aligned with a plane, without materializing any sort of form? Could a theory or formula become aware on Mechanus and hide itself away in others heads to spread itself, to try and possibly achieve itself? Could Limbo spin the very inklings of ideas into a similar form, which could spread through people like wildfire, distorting as it went? Or would this sort of being usually manifest as an exemplar of the plane?

It'd manifest as something, but you could certainly have some kind of, say, extraplanar incorporeal aberration that functioned like a living meme. A swarm of notion-motes. An aura of strange inspiration. No I haven't thought about this before, why do you ask?

tl;dr it will become something, but it doesn't have to be an exemplar, corporeal, or even a creature at all.

For that matter, are there any good sources to read about psionics and the planes?

Nada.

Is it known what or who caused the collapse of the Reigar civilization? If no Canon is available speculation is fine.

The destruction of the homeworld would not have helped, nor would their natural desire to spread out and be unique special snowflakes. In many ways the reigar are the ultimate send-up of Mary Sues, right down to being sparkly and totally unique and a lost race. The consequences? They're highly visible and sought after by both good and evil, don't spend a lot of time with one another because redundant experiences do not interest them, and are scattered across arcane space with little desire to un-scatter.

I've come across "Leviathan Ghost Ships" in relation to spell jammer but have no idea what they are. What are they?

Space leviathans, massive spacefaring vessels so incredibly vast that other ships can not just dock alongside them, but often even within their hulls. Every single leviathan ever found is a derelict, therefore "leviathan ghost ships."

[WalkingTheShade]

It'd manifest as something, but you could certainly have some kind of, say, extraplanar incorporeal aberration that functioned like a living meme. A swarm of notion-motes. An aura of strange inspiration. No I haven't thought about this before, why do you ask?

tl;dr it will become something, but it doesn't have to be an exemplar, corporeal, or even a creature at all.

Stats for the meme monster!

Space leviathans, massive spacefaring vessels so incredibly vast that other ships can not just dock alongside them, but often even within their hulls. Every single leviathan ever found is a derelict, therefore "leviathan ghost ships."

Are they also usually full of insectoid things that can mind control people?

New line of questions:
What can you tell me about the Palace of the Jester in Sigil, and its master?
Has the jester done anything interesting in canon? I didn't see any interesting mentions outside of In the Cage.

[Brookshw]

It'd manifest as something, but you could certainly have some kind of, say, extraplanar incorporeal aberration that functioned like a living meme. A swarm of notion-motes. An aura of strange inspiration. No I haven't thought about this before, why do you ask?

tl;dr it will become something, but it doesn't have to be an exemplar, corporeal, or even a creature at all.

Kinda reminds me of those living equations on Mechanus.

Space leviathans, massive spacefaring vessels so incredibly vast that other ships can not just dock alongside them, but often even within their hulls. Every single leviathan ever found is a derelict, therefore "leviathan ghost ships."

Nifty! Any sources you can point me to for further details? Rumored origins, what's been found on them, etc?