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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    frown No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Alright... I've been playing with my current D&D group for awhile now. It's a fun group with it's ups and downs. The main problem with it is three things...
    1. My fellow members lack RP in their campaigns and while playing in other campaigns. I seek a way to draw it out of them. They hid behind cliche' one liners and hack and slash action.
    2. Originality (save one member) is something that my group has always never mixed with. They make overly cliched characters and worst of all... They make the same cliche over... and over... and over... Usually the characters background is stolen out of a tv show... Allow me to show you what my characters cliches are.
    -Min maxing Brooding loner character who always keeps to himself and just punchs those who disagree with him (in game of coarse).
    -Duel weilding attempted loner who always goes into a berserk which is quickly ended by the other loner. Generally attempts drama and rp, but it ends in WoW and starwars refrences.
    -A black or white (as in alignment) character who is fully determined to rid the world of the other side. Unbending, bossy (in character).
    .
    <b>3.</b> The overall inability to make a character who is balanced and not minmaxed. Who has visable flaws and not always god like. (this applys to only one or two members of my group) The general excuse is, "BUT IT'S FREAKEN AWSOME!".
    The main problem with my group is several of my players refuse to play if everything isn't just the way they want it... Of coarse they have their ups as well. It's always fun to go to a meeting and i'm always up for one. I just want to know a way to get my players to work outside their boxes.
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  2. - Top - End - #2

    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    You can't force people to roleplay, dude. They're playing beer-and-pretzels D&D, and they seem to be having fun doing it, which I'd say is the whole point.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Your probobly right about that but... their to the point that their characters flip off paladins and don't think the actions through then complain about the reprecutions
    TO HOOKERVILLE 9! -Captain Zog

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Offhand, my guess would be they don't have very much experience with the game. For that, the passage of time does wonders.

    Otherwise, you might try to introduce non-player characters they would come to bond with. The fast-talking gossip at the bar who can drink one under the table, or the quiet wizard who hires the group to escort him through dangerous territory, whatever your characters (and players, in this case) would be likely to resonate with.

    Your players are much more likely to become emotionally involved in their characters to, say, save the life of an NPC which the players think is cool.

    All in all, there are many ways to get your players emotionally involved, and they don't all require emotion; just a good setup to evoke it, and really, any number of emotions would work.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordMalrog View Post
    Your probobly right about that but... their to the point that their characters flip off paladins and don't think the actions through then complain about the reprecutions
    Flipping off paladins is high roleplay. Flipping paladins' corpses off the bridge and into the river after weighting them down so they won't surface is even better.

    Why should they play a character with a visible flaw? Will having a mechanical crutch like an arbitrarily low stat somehow enhance their roleplaying? Or do you mean an actual roleplaying flaw like a tendency to trust pretty girls they just met...in the middle of the dungeon. If the not thinking through stuff is occurring in character, that's a pretty significant roleplay flaw in and of itself.

    High or low stats, optimized or slapped together, nothing anyone does with their character sheet is going to make how they talk in a funny voice any more enjoyable.

    Be careful about trying to get your fellow players to roleplay outside their boxes. Roleplaying is like cat crap. Cat crap smells bad in the box, but making the cat go outside the box isn't going to make the crap smell any better. In or out of the box, it's the same crap.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ghost_warlock's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    If your group plays like you say, it may be because they are 1) young, 2) looking for a consequence-free form of stress-relief, or 3) just looking to hang out and have some fun cracking one-liners and using the game as a vehicle.

    It's likely that they're prefectly happy with their playstyle. The problem here isn't really your group's inability to RP ("Beer and Pretzels," or whatnot), but that you seek a different style of play. In one of the introductory chapters of the Dungeon Master's Guide II, it specifically talks about this, essentially saying that there's "no wrong way to play as long as you're having fun." If your style doesn't mesh with your buddies, maybe you should seek a different group. Trying to convert them to a more dramatic style of play is probably only going to end in failure and frustration on all of your parts.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    JadedDM's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    The 'whole point' is for everyone to have fun, that includes the DM. My advice is to try talking with them and see if you can reach some kind of compromise. If your players are unyielding, then let one of them try DMing. See how they like it! Or, if you can, try and find some new players; ones that play more along your own sense of style.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    I'm agreeing with ghost_warlock here; I think it's a little unfair to ask THEM to change. D&D has always had a kick-down-the-door, "OMG 18/00 STR," <insert movie quote> aspect to it.

    I mean, this is like the person who always picks Ken when playing Street Fighter, or always wants to play shortstop. They have fun that way.

    If you're that sick and tired of them, find another group. Clearly in that case, what you want and what they want are causing friction, and who wants that?

    - Eddie

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    My group is *kind of* the same way. I'm going to try and instil a greater sense of concern for the world by simply making the world more discriptive. For example, those arent just zombies. The players will eventually learn through combat over the course of the day that the zombies are actually a twisted new kind of undead, stronger than normal because they are fueld by souls, only the souls are aware and helpless. So there will be bits of discription thrown out like .... "As your sword cuts through the undead flesh, you catch a glimpse of relief in it's eyes, and it crumples to the ground" or "as the zombie swings at you, you can almost make out a tortured apology in its wordless wailings" and the like.

    No guarantee it is going to work. But it will be fun for me, and then my players can kill the zombie anyway.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Never has there existed a better way to bring out the RPer in a gamer than horror. I had a group quite similar to yours, but once I started using smoe elements of horror(including some of the tips from, of course, Heroes of Horror), they gradually began to RP more of their own free will. I can't tell you what will work definitively for your group, but I can say definitively that it worked wonders with my group, not that they're the best/most dedicated RP's, but at least do RP some now.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Matthew's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_warlock View Post
    If your group plays like you say, it may be because they are 1) young, 2) looking for a consequence-free form of stress-relief, or 3) just looking to hang out and have some fun cracking one-liners and using the game as a vehicle.

    It's likely that they're prefectly happy with their playstyle. The problem here isn't really your group's inability to RP ("Beer and Pretzels," or whatnot), but that you seek a different style of play. In one of the introductory chapters of the Dungeon Master's Guide II, it specifically talks about this, essentially saying that there's "no wrong way to play as long as you're having fun." If your style doesn't mesh with your buddies, maybe you should seek a different group. Trying to convert them to a more dramatic style of play is probably only going to end in failure and frustration on all of your parts.
    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    The 'whole point' is for everyone to have fun, that includes the DM. My advice is to try talking with them and see if you can reach some kind of compromise. If your players are unyielding, then let one of them try DMing. See how they like it! Or, if you can, try and find some new players; ones that play more along your own sense of style.
    Both these points of view are valid. You can encourage your Players to switch playstyles in order to increase fun, even if it is just as a change of pace. However, some people just aren't interested and won't be, even if you do everything right to foster that sort of game. Bring it up with the group, discuss what type of game you would like to play in the near future and see if a compromise can be reached. If it cannot and you are unhappy, you are best advised to find a new group.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    1- play a balenced barabrian
    2- get exotic weapon proficiency Fullblade 2d8 critical19-20, 23ilb, 100gp
    3- get some ****ing sweet armour.
    4- go into rage and kill loners/cliched characters and tell them to be original and that anyone who has a problem with that will have their next character maimed until they get the point.
    5- watch Pulp Fiction and steal some good Samuel L Jackson quotes to use during the speech. Your stupid minmax loner friends will be lost for words.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Sucrose's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumJester View Post
    1- play a balenced barabrian
    2- get exotic weapon proficiency Fullblade 2d8 critical19-20, 23ilb, 100gp
    3- get some ****ing sweet armour.
    4- go into rage and kill loners/cliched characters and tell them to be original and that anyone who has a problem with that will have their next character maimed until they get the point.
    5- watch Pulp Fiction and steal some good Samuel L Jackson quotes to use during the speech. Your stupid minmax loner friends will be lost for words.
    I'm personally of the opinion that this'd be too confrontational and just tick 'em off, but if you do go this route, do it right: No fullblade, a greatsword is fine. Frenzied Berzerker with a full power attacking charge souped up by Leap Attack and Shock Trooper's Heedless Rush tactic would be more effective. I only offer this because the only thing that I find worse than pulling off this kind of passive-aggressive antic is failing at it.

    Really, though, if you want to discourage min-maxing (though, as others have said, it won't really improve their role-playing) show them the latest version of Pun-Pun. Level one, ultimate power. Makes optimization for its own sake seem kinda pointless.

    For roleplay, I suggest puzzles, or other challenges that force them to get involved in the game, instead of hacking their way through it.

    Finally, if they don't enjoy your play style, accept it and either adapt or find a new group. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by clericwithnogod View Post
    Roleplaying is like cat crap. Cat crap smells bad in the box, but making the cat go outside the box isn't going to make the crap smell any better. In or out of the box, it's the same crap.
    Man, that is a profound statement. I may have to use it on my group, just before I crap on them.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordMalrog View Post
    Your probobly right about that but... their to the point that their characters flip off paladins and don't think the actions through then complain about the reprecutions
    I had a player do something like that before. Long story short, he ended up eradicating a small elven village; the only thing that made it not mass murder was that he held back a little.

    I had already created an elven archmage NPC, which the players knew about. I had him drop the heavy end of the hammer on my PC.

    It worked in this case. The player seemed okay with it, as his next character made me wish that the archmage hadn't killed the last one. I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you know that your players can handle it maturely, but I prefer to use that "you did it, now here are the consequences" approach.

    As for your players' lack of RP....... I'm not sure there's much you can do about that. You can try talking to them, and if that doesn't work, then you really shouldn't ruin their fun by forcing them into it. They'll complain, you'll make enemies of your players, and no one will be happy. If it gets to that point, finding another group might be a good idea. And you don't even have to drop your old group; you can keep doing the hack'n'slash dungeon crawls with them.

    The originality problem is hard also. Again, you could try asking them if they want to try anything else, or at least ask them to try and avoid all the cliches. If that doesn't work, I would create a lot of varied and interesting NPCs for the adventures. Maybe once they see all the fun the DM is having creating unusual combinations, they'll try it themselves.

    The fact that they keep creating characters that are min-maxed is probably a symptom of their dislike for roleplaying. I've found that selecting character options with RPing or character identity in mind tends to create characters with flaws, where making decisions based on pure combat, particularly for the unbalanced classes, tends to create heavily twinked characters. I would say talk to them and tell them that it's not fun for them to be doing everything while the others do nothing. (That will work better if you make sure it's true first.) If they refuse to acquiese, then increase the general difficulty, so that they need their compatriots' help, and do a few encounters every so often that play on their unbalanced characters' specific weaknesses, thus relegating them to the support role for said encounter. Definitely don't do that last too often, though.
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    ShneekeyTheLost's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    For curbing your PC's min/maxing tendencies, if you end up with Hulking Hurlers and Optimized Wizards and CoDzillas in every game, then here's a tip for you:

    "Whatsoever the PC's doeth, the GM is hereby allowed to do with BBEG's"

    You want to abuse DMM Persist cheeze and an Optimized Wizard? I've got a Mummy Lord (who has already Desecrated and Unhallowed around his Alter and Bolstered his minions with the one or two Turn attempts he has left. He's backed up by a Litch who is hella Optimized, and used Chain Spell and Arcane Reach (as a Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage build) to buff up the whole room full of minions with all kinds of nifty buffs.

    This tends to curb outright smelly cheeze in character builds.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Remember: if they think that their uber-death builds can do anything, pull out the Epic Level Handbook and show them some real power. Your players should be challenged, after all. If they're crushing everything effortlessly, then jack up the power of the enemies until they aren't. Either optimize yourself or decrease all enemy CRs until they're honestly challenged by a enemy with the same CR. And, as the DMG states, the key word in "experience award" is award. If they used 3 cheesy spells out of 30 to win an encounter, were they really challenged, and do they really deserve an award?
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  18. - Top - End - #18
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    In my opinion and experience, showing them all the nifty stuff in the Epic Level Handbook or whipping up crazy ninja-demon-archmage-halfgod-wossnames for them to fight only tend to make things worse. Instead, I suggest trying either having 'The Talk' with them, although many players of that type resent it when you critizise their lack of roleplaying, or this approach: Slowly, carefully try to teach them how to roleplay 'properly' by showing them. Maybe start out with the one who you feel is most open to trying something new and throw him some interesting interaction that requires him to think with his head and not his stats, maybe do some one-on-one hardcore RP sessions where you try and leave out the dice-rolling, encouraging them to rise to the challenge.
    In short, instead of wrecking havoc or telling them that they're doing it wrong, simply teach them to do it right by enticing them into doing it themselves, without telling them

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    F.H. Zebedee's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    I'll second the NPC aspect. My group is kinda: 1 Munchkin, 1 hardcore RPer who doesn't mind sacrificing balance to match flavor, and sometimes a virtually pure RPer who actually barely understands the numbers on her sheet. The best way I've found to keep it from becoming raw combat is to use a lot of recurring allied NPCs to keep them involved, in an attached friendship and such.
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  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    One thing I might try is to make a one or two session adventure with premade characters. Make up maybe twice the number of characters as you have players in flavors you think they will like, but nothing that is obviously in their normal rut. Don't cheese out the characters, make them reasonable.

    For the adventure, put in a good mix of challenges, say some low level critters in large numbers, some decent powered things, some groups that are too powerful to fight directly, traps, etc. Say they get involved in a small war, and have to assault a goblin/orc fort in the end. The beauty is that you can tailor the characters around the challenges you intend to put in.

    I wouldn't force this as a long term game plan, but just as a "Hey guys, I am trying out this like mini-adventure and made some characters for it that I am thinking of writing a story about. Want to play for a session or two?"
    The idea is to teach them that well rounded characters can be powerful and fun, and get them to try different approaches. Also, having prewritten back grounds and personalities to play will give them a little guidance, so they don't feel they have to pull a personality from no where.

    It might not work, and if not, they might just really like what they were doing before. But maybe it will give them ideas. If you have ample ideas yourself, having the players latch onto a few from time to time can help.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Diggorian's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    I've DMed for similar groups Malrog, here's what I've done:

    1. RP the way you want them too. Play your NPCs and intelligent monsters with as much depth as you expect from them. Show, dont tell. Orcs are ugly, dont just say that make an ugly face when ya RP them. They may spew one-liners but they're gonna run out, stick to your guns -- commit to the story with your portrayl of the world around them. Dissuade metagaming.

    2. Originality can sometimes be forced with the types of encounters you set up. They've gone to ancient dungeons likely, have they ever had to scale a mountain to get there? Gotten attacked by homebrewed vulture things midway up? If they can fly, the only way in slow crawling through crevasses, then an earthquake happens. Plan outside of your box and they must think outside of theirs to succeed. Rubbing in failure kills fun, dont gloat.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordMalrog
    The main problem with my group is several of my players refuse to play if everything isn't just the way they want it...
    3. If you dont want to find a new group, I'd say compromise. They sound like Steamventing types, so make the first encounter of a game easy and narrate their uberness to the hilt. As in #1, Show - dont tell. Refusing to name an enemy makes it that much more dangerous seeming. Slaying a "swarm of feral imp ravagers" is more satisfying when they arent called straight Monster manual goblins. Once their FREAKIN AWESOMENESS is reestablished, their egos can accept a challenge like in #2 above.

    That's what's worked for me.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    You have several issues of style mismatch with your group. I recommend tackling them one at a time, so you aren't trying to get people to change all aspects of their style at once.

    Playing a few short games instead of campaigns is a good general way to get them to take a chance on something new.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    It's much easier to sneak roleplaying in than slam it in their faces right off the bat. A method I found very useful is to throw the experience guides out the window. Give bonus points at character creation for a unique and interesting backstory, give more experience for an original method of killing a monster, beating a trap or getting past a guard without resorting to bashing his skull in.

    Some players driven by getting more power genuinely hate actually roleplaying, but a lot just haven't tried or think it will be more like LARPing than the somewhat lighter roleplay that is generally used at the tabletop.

    Experience almost solely for combat is (I think) one of the things D&D got wrong as a roleplaying system. For the fighting system, it's fine, but I personally scrap that and give it out for thinking rather than the random rolls of a d20 and players skill at character building.
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    One player in my group is very similar to this style. When I started to play with them, it was very kick in the door.
    As we played more, I played characters who roleplayed more, and my fellow players did the same.
    When it came to me DMing, creating interesting NPCs and things which couldn't be solved by hack and slash (especially when I explained that I don't care if they die), they roleplayed more. Now, in my games, players are worrying more about their skill points than their hit points in several situations, and it is fun.
    We still do a hack and slash dungeon crawl, but it is for a change of pace instead of the norm.
    Also, RP awards are usually a good incentive. We also have a bunch of things that we let by that we shouldn't just because it is great RP (like free spiked chain proficiency for a cleric of Loki).
    Last edited by BardicDuelist; 2007-04-26 at 09:35 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordMalrog View Post
    Min maxing Brooding loner character who always keeps to himself ...
    -Duel weilding attempted loner ...
    Will they ever learn that brooding loners suck?

    Brooding loners work in anime and movies because the plot happens to them. They work in your game because you plan an adventure, and all they have to do is show up. People see brooding loners in movies and they look cool, but then they wonder why standing in the dark shadow of the bar is less "cool, brooding anti-hero" and more "bored loser with no direction". The problem is that brooding heroes who stand in the corner are only good at looking good while standing in the corner -- they don't drive the plot at all.

    Brooding loners are my pet-peeve, so pardon if this is harsh. I think people who play the brooding loner are too lazy to come up with an active character who contributes to the game -- but I've found them the first to complain of railroading when the DM has to drive the game. No mercy!

    My suggestion would be to start the next session by saying, "Your last adventure was a success, and you have returned to the city. What would you like to do now?" and not provide them with a new adventure for a couple weeks. Make them create their own, based on whatever they decide makes their character tick.

    It might be that the adventures they create on their own are baroom brawls and carousing with women of ill-repute (followed by mandatory public service and "cure disease" spells). However, it may be that one falls in love, or that the young server-girl who gets knocked into the fire pit and killed/crippled during the brawl was the sole support for her 10 year old brother -- who now becomes the dependent of the party...

    ...or her little brother becomes a nemesis, like a bard with racked out diplomacy, which is the worst enemy a party could have.

    Just keep offering the RP opportunities and reward when someone picks up on it!

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    I would recommend opening the session with a Combat, to allow steamventing per say.

    That way perhaps after that first 1/2 hour of combat they will have a bit more time/inclination to do somethign than another half an hour of combat. Also from my own experiance i find players tend to do stuff like kill elven children after sleeping with their mom's when they are bored. Make sure no glazzy eye's are happening.

    But hey even if all your NPC's are going OMG UR So AWESOME Sleep W/ Me after YOu Defeat Evil Thing With the Key to My HERT ( And Chasistiy Belt) . Just Remember to have fun and if your player's responce is

    WANA CyBER

    The Answer is always ,After the Next Quest

    Lolghs
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  27. - Top - End - #27
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Bassetking's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos7 View Post
    I would recommend opening the session with a Combat, to allow steamventing per say.

    That way perhaps after that first 1/2 hour of combat they will have a bit more time/inclination to do somethign than another half an hour of combat. Also from my own experiance i find players tend to do stuff like kill elven children after sleeping with their mom's when they are bored. Make sure no glazzy eye's are happening.

    But hey even if all your NPC's are going OMG UR So AWESOME Sleep W/ Me after YOu Defeat Evil Thing With the Key to My HERT ( And Chasistiy Belt) . Just Remember to have fun and if your player's responce is

    WANA CyBER

    The Answer is always ,After the Next Quest

    Lolghs
    Logos, in my experience, starting with Combat is counter-intuitive.

    For many recovering KitDers (Kick in the Door) Combat is the Carrot that makes the RP stick tolerable.

    Give them their carrot right off the bat, and they're unlikely to respond to the stick for the rest of the session.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Citizen Joe's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    This tactic should work although it is very drastic: Let them win. RPG's are not actually about winning. In fact, if you do win, the game is over. So, run them through some easy encounters, start have the opponents grovelling for their lives. Then offer them some rediculously well paying job for the Crown or something. When they accept, say "Congratulations! You win. Your character lives a long fulfilling life with much wealth and accolades. Eventually you die of old age with all your loved ones at your bedside... OK, the rest of us are starting over with reasonable characters..."

    Note that this also works against unreasonable DM's that are constantly trying to overpower the players with rediculous situations. Let the DM kill the whole party.

    When both sides (the DM and the players) realize that it is the actual playing that is fun, not winning, things should level out... or the group will break up.
    Last edited by Citizen Joe; 2007-04-27 at 09:15 AM. Reason: oops... should have been 'are not'

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    darkzucchini's Avatar

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Its hard to make people better RPers, hopefully if they are new to the game they will pick up the skill along the way. You may be able to help them along their way through a number of different means:
    1) Don't just give them hack and slash and skill checks, if someone needs to make a diplomacy, gather information, or bluff check, make them think about what they are going to say by modifying the DC depending on what they tell the NPC.
    2) Give them someone to care about. Give them dependents and then capture them, kill them, put them into some strong emotional situations.
    3) Knock them up against their alignment. Give them tough, ethical dilemmas to try to figure out. Hopefully they aren't all playing the nonRPing version of CN.
    4) Flush out you NPCs. Give them interesting characteristics and have conversations with your PCs, hopefully this will draw them into the game more.

    As for MinMaxing, make them feel that min part. As the DM, you can do some meta-gaming and throw enemies at them that are a challange for their build. If you have someone melee heavy, throw some ranged enemies at them in difficult to reached areas, like archers on top of houses or across a river. Of course, you don't want to make it so that their character is completely useless, you just want to make sure that they don't kill everyone in the first round. It may also be a good idea to throw them into to situations where the smart thing to do would be to run rather then stay and fight it out.
    Last edited by darkzucchini; 2007-04-27 at 05:37 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #30
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: No cure for the MINMAX blues...

    Quote Originally Posted by darkzucchini View Post
    2) Give them someone to care about. Give them dependents and then capture them, kill them, put them into some strong emotional situations.
    I'd recommend against this one. It's too easy to teach players that anyone they care about is a liability.

    If you want to encourage them, let them adopt some NPCs as pets :)

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