DM tried to have my Fighter "Fall"

[Geddy2112]

I love this. Your class does not automatically determine who you are or how you act. Fighters can be LG and devout to a deity. So can bards, rogues, wizards, and just about every other class sans druid. Likewise, your class and skill set does not de facto determine your day job.

Bravo for roleplaying your character, and hopefully enlightening your DM.

[ComaVision]

The "inherently" aspect is unexpected given your example. You must be using different goblins than I. That would also explain anti-ninja's reaction (since your goblins are as abnormal as my devils).

Yep, that's definitely Chaotic Evil. A greedy merchant or a corrupt minister might be considered Evil, but their crimes (if any) hardly justify execution. Children of any race definitely don't. A CG act would have been to turn them over to an orphanage so they could be raised Good, or taking care of them yourself, or finding a goblin tribe that was already at least neutral.

That is deliberately why I mentioned that they were pinging evil. It suggests that they are inherently evil rather than being taught (nature rather than nurture). If they were neutral and there was anything to suggest that not every single goblinoid in the world was evil then I would totally agree.

I'm absolutely willing to accept that it's an unpopular stance though.

[anti-ninja]

That is deliberately why I mentioned that they were pinging evil. It suggests that they are inherently evil rather than being taught (nature rather than nurture). If they were neutral and there was anything to suggest that not every single goblinoid in the world was evil then I would totally agree.

unless your dm hombrewed it like that I believe just tells a)if there evil and b)if there is a stronger aura like a cleric of an evil god or an evil outsider,but that merchant who steals fro his employes and blackmails anyone who finds out he just pinged still ,and there goes your great axe into his heart.but I think its best to agree to disagree

[Flickerdart]

That is deliberately why I mentioned that they were pinging evil. It suggests that they are inherently evil rather than being taught (nature rather than nurture). If they were neutral and there was anything to suggest that not every single goblinoid in the world was evil then I would totally agree.

It doesn't matter if every single goblin in the world is evil. There was a succubus paladin - and she started out as not only Evil but [Evil]. You can raise a measly goblin as a Good creature.

[anti-ninja]

It doesn't matter if every single goblin in the world is evil. There was a succubus paladin - and she started out as not only Evil but [Evil]. You can raise a measly goblin as a Good creature.

exactly ,besides goblins are not evil outsiders so they are not [Evil]and therefore killing them for being goblins is not a CG act,much less a capital G good act.

[Keltest]

exactly ,besides goblins are not evil outsiders so they are not [Evil]and therefore killing them for being goblins is not a CG act,much less a capital G good act.

Honestly, if the DM tells me that goblins are born evil and are incapable of being good, im inclined to take them at their word. Now maybe that particular DM didn't think their implications through all the way, but I have no trouble accepting always-evil to mean ALWAYS evil in non-outsiders if its part of the setting.

[ComaVision]

It doesn't matter if every single goblin in the world is evil. There was a succubus paladin - and she started out as not only Evil but [Evil]. You can raise a measly goblin as a Good creature.

Honestly, if the DM tells me that goblins are born evil and are incapable of being good, im inclined to take them at their word. Now maybe that particular DM didn't think their implications through all the way, but I have no trouble accepting always-evil to mean ALWAYS evil in non-outsiders if its part of the setting.

Thank you. The fact a single succubus was redeemed in a setting that has nothing to do with my DM's means nothing. As far as I have any reason to believe, goblinoids are not redeemable at all.

EDIT: Something interesting I came across:

I am not sure how this will play with the offical settings, but I just started reading Night of the Hunter: Companions Codex, I by R A Salvatore, that is taking aprt int he new realms, and one of the characters who can almost be considered a choosen of Mielikki stated she was advised by her goddess that the various goblinkin and orcs are different then the 'good' races, and by large should be removed.

This was pretty shocking to me, as I do not like the moral absolutism that brings and is a bit of a strike to me against the Forgotten Realms setting. Stating the the race and culture is pure evil and the drow are even redemable as a whole, but the goblinkin are not. The goblinkin are created to destroy, nothing more, to be a blight on the land. As told by Mielikki they are a scourge and challenge to those who would serve goodly purpose. They are not people, but monsters, full goblinkin do not have a conscience. Raising a lion would be safer then raising a goblin child.

This was from around page 45 in the novel.

It is good aligned to be a murder hobo against goblinoids, burning there villages and wiping them out. It makes what happened with Redcloak and his goblins in Order of the Stick seem a reflection of the offical settings.

So there's a least a sprinkling of support within WOTC materials that goblinoid genocide is a good act.

[anti-ninja]

yes but theirs also WOTC materiel like BoED's mercy rules which make it nearly impossible for a good character to kill a bad guy if he is willy willy sowy.But killing goblins is not what i really care about (though I still don't like the implications of killing goblins cause there goblins),its killing Joe the corrupt merchant for pinging evil that makes me think your character is CE .

[ComaVision]

yes but theirs also WOTC materiel like BoED's mercy rules which make it nearly impossible for a good character to kill a bad guy if he is willy willy sowy.But killing goblins is not what i really care about (though I still don't like the implications of killing goblins cause there goblins),its killing Joe the corrupt merchant for pinging evil that makes me think your character is CE .

Just for the record, none of our combatants has made a last minute plea so far.

I would kill Joe the corrupt merchant but apparently he doesn't exist. Like, I've literally not come across one person in the capital or any other town that pings evil. I think since the DM is quite new that he has really polarized alignments. I think that if I come across someone that's evil they're probably actually EVIL, which would justify it in the setting.

[Andezzar]

its killing Joe the corrupt merchant for pinging evil that makes me think your character is CE .

Exactly. A creature being evil does not give you a license to kill it nor does it make the killing a non-evil act.

[Venger]

Just for the record, none of our combatants has made a last minute plea so far.

I would kill Joe the corrupt merchant but apparently he doesn't exist. Like, I've literally not come across one person in the capital or any other town that pings evil. I think since the DM is quite new that he has really polarized alignments. I think that if I come across someone that's evil they're probably actually EVIL, which would justify it in the setting.

either that or since you've made it clear that you'll genocide anything that pings on your detect Evil radar, he's not having it come up much to prevent headaches for the game.

[YossarianLives]

@ComaVision

Judging by the fact that you think "mook races" cannot be redeemed and you've never had a enemy surrender. It sounds like you and your group play hack and slash games. It's not a bad way of playing but I for one just don't enjoy that kind of play-style.

[anti-ninja]

I would kill Joe the corrupt merchant

and that is why in my eyes you're CE Joe stole and blackmailed but never killed raped or anything like that,while you have admitted to being genocidal .

[ComaVision]

either that or since you've made it clear that you'll genocide anything that pings on your detect Evil radar, he's not having it come up much to prevent headaches for the game.

Same result

@ComaVision

Judging by the fact that you think "mook races" cannot be redeemed and you've never had a enemy surrender. It sounds like you and your group play hack and slash games. It's not a bad way of playing but I for one just don't enjoy that kind of play-style.

That's a valid assessment. While we're only about four sessions in to this campaign I don't think we've collectively ever had a session without any combat. One of our players has a really poor memory and while he has an OK enough grasp on combat, non-combat encounters basically mean he isn't playing. I'm certain he wouldn't be able to recount the events of our session yesterday with much accuracy.

[Deadline]

and that is why in my eyes you're CE Joe stole and blackmailed but never killed raped or anything like that,while you have admitted to being genocidal .

Genocidal? Which ethnic group is he trying to exterminate again?

Also, you keep trying to apply real-world morality to D&D. In the real world, good and evil are moral concepts. In D&D, they are literal forces of the universe. You can even have beings literally made of Evil. I'm not sure you can apply the same broad brush strokes.

[OldTrees1]

That is deliberately why I mentioned that they were pinging evil. It suggests that they are inherently evil rather than being taught (nature rather than nurture). If they were neutral and there was anything to suggest that not every single goblinoid in the world was evil then I would totally agree.

I'm absolutely willing to accept that it's an unpopular stance though.

I see. You are playing with irredeemable goblins. This species is not common although it is about as common as the redeemable devils species I play with.

Strange how a simple species replacement can drastically alter the alignments of characters.
:)

[ComaVision]

Genocidal? Which ethnic group is he trying to exterminate again?

Also, you keep trying to apply real-world morality to D&D. In the real world, good and evil are moral concepts. In D&D, they are literal forces of the universe. You can even have beings literally made of Evil. I'm not sure you can apply the same broad brush strokes.

Agreed.

and that is why in my eyes you're CE Joe stole and blackmailed but never killed raped or anything like that,while you have admitted to being genocidal .

I admitted no such thing.

[anti-ninja]

Genocidal? Which ethnic group is he trying to exterminate again?

Also, you keep trying to apply real-world morality to D&D. In the real world, good and evil are moral concepts. In D&D, they are literal forces of the universe. You can even have beings literally made of Evil. I'm not sure you can apply the same broad brush strokes.

Fair enough I probably went to far with that statement and for that I apologize.

[Venger]

Genocidal? Which ethnic group is he trying to exterminate again?

Also, you keep trying to apply real-world morality to D&D. In the real world, good and evil are moral concepts. In D&D, they are literal forces of the universe. You can even have beings literally made of Evil. I'm not sure you can apply the same broad brush strokes.

well, genocide is Good in D&D. this guy sounds like he's playing LG to the hilt (pardon the pun) or at least, LG as written by RAW

Many monstrous beings are
not tolerated by the surrounding community and must keep
their existence secret. Evil communities may tolerate the presence
of monsters that other communities would not, but
neutral and good communities are liable to drive away
monsters and those who would associate with them

[Necroticplague]

Genocidal? Which ethnic group is he trying to exterminate again?

Also, you keep trying to apply real-world morality to D&D. In the real world, good and evil are moral concepts. In D&D, they are literal forces of the universe. You can even have beings literally made of Evil. I'm not sure you can apply the same broad brush strokes.

The problem I find that people too often equate the two. If Evil and Good are physical forces, it doesn't make sense to apply morality to them. So the fact you ping evil doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you naturally posses more of that Evil energy. You might be Evil because you reanimate a lot of undead, and the Evil energy from the spell has been rubbing off, but that doesn't mean you're evil if you have your skeletons help rebuild a town.

[anti-ninja]

well, genocide is Good in D&D. this guy sounds like he's playing LG to the hilt (pardon the pun) or at least, LG as written by RAW

Well he was saying that his character was CG,also I dont think something as subjective as alignment can be determined by raw unless WoTC literally published a list of all possible actions an alignment could and all reactions they could have.I would still like to know why Joe the theoretical merchant would be considered deserving of death by a CG character,but it sounds like his game is more hack &slash so to each there own I guess.

[ComaVision]

Well he was saying that his character was CG,also I dont think something as subjective as alignment can be determined by raw unless WoTC literally published a list of all possible actions an alignment could and all reactions they could have.I would still like to know why Joe the theoretical merchant would be considered deserving of death by a CG character,but it sounds like his game is more hack &slash so to each there own I guess.

Who decides what acts are worth the death penalty and which aren't? Seems pretty subjective to me. Hell, maybe he doesn't get an evil alignment until he's cheating people and also peddling child slaves on the side.

[anti-ninja]

Who decides what acts are worth the death penalty and which aren't? Seems pretty subjective to me. Hell, maybe he doesn't get an evil alignment until he's cheating people and also peddling child slaves on the side.

while it is subjective,I just can't see killing everything that pings as good action at best CN one.side note gutting that merchant in the town square is also probably not the smartest thing to ,assuming that not everyone knows about his actions its a good way to make you look like a psychopath.

[Keltest]

while it is subjective,I just can't see killing everything that pings as good action at best CN one.side note gutting that merchant in the town square is also probably not the smartest thing to ,assuming that not everyone knows about his actions its a good way to make you look like a psychopath.

Again, it depends on how the setting handles it. If goblins were created to be slave-warriors to the evil gods who are trying to overthrow the minions of the good and neutral gods, and are under a form of magical domination that compels them to be evil, then yeah, treating them as universally evil is not unreasonable.

[Venger]

Well he was saying that his character was CG,also I dont think something as subjective as alignment can be determined by raw unless WoTC literally published a list of all possible actions an alignment could and all reactions they could have.I would still like to know why Joe the theoretical merchant would be considered deserving of death by a CG character,but it sounds like his game is more hack &slash so to each there own I guess.

I meant comavision, since he said he actively went around genociding everyone, sorry if that was unclear. I don't mean to say "ACTUALLY, comavision, you should change your alignment because I say so, without ever having seen your character" I was just participating in the conversation that alignment is broken.

I don't care what he or anyone puts on their sheet, alignment's only there to determine what version of blasphemy hurts you

[ComaVision]

I meant comavision, since he said he actively went around genociding everyone, sorry if that was unclear. I don't mean to say "ACTUALLY, comavision, you should change your alignment because I say so, without ever having seen your character" I was just participating in the conversation that alignment is broken.

Now I'm confused.

I don't care what he or anyone puts on their sheet, alignment's only there to determine what version of blasphemy hurts you

I agree with this. At best, it's an extremely loose guideline.

[Sir Chuckles]

Who decides what acts are worth the death penalty and which aren't?

Apparently you do.

[ComaVision]

Apparently you do.

Yeah man.

My point was that my opinion is just as valid as another. Maybe not as valid as my DM's but we seem to have an understanding.






inb4 I fall next game

[Ettina]

The problem I find that people too often equate the two. If Evil and Good are physical forces, it doesn't make sense to apply morality to them. So the fact you ping evil doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you naturally posses more of that Evil energy. You might be Evil because you reanimate a lot of undead, and the Evil energy from the spell has been rubbing off, but that doesn't mean you're evil if you have your skeletons help rebuild a town.

And his character pings 'Good' for killing said necromancer because he removed a source of Evil energy, regardless of real-life morality.

[OldTrees1]

And his character pings 'Good' for killing said necromancer because he removed a source of Evil energy, regardless of real-life morality.

No need to preface that with "real-life" since that view of Good and Evil also separates Good and Evil from in-game morality(usually denoted as good and evil when these RAW derails occur).