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    Default The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    So, while reading through Tippy's Fusion + Astral Seed Ascension trick, I began to wonder: Could this be used by an individual (or an organization) to create an army of obedient supersoldiers? (If that sounds familiar, it is because I did try something like this before). As always, this is merely a theoretical optimization exercise, and its use in an actual game is not recommended.

    Spoiler: Process Summary
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    "I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge"
    -Evil Overlord List, No 48

    *We assume you already have Ice Assassins of the various creatures you want to include in the fusion (refer to "Recommended Creatures")
    *First make a Clone of your Long Term Body, that is, the Body in which you plan to continue adventuring in. This can be a multi-stalt of various creatures, or it can be your plain old humanoid body. Preserve your clone for later use.
    *(Note: Fusion only works with creatures of the same type, and the same size or smaller. While not explicitly stated in Tippy's original formulation, you can easily circumvent this limitation with Polymorph. E.g. If you are medium human, you can polymorph the Tarrasque into a halfling, fusion with it, and then dismiss polymorph.)

    Gaining Split
    *Next, through the Fusion + Astral Seed combo, give yourself a nigh-invulnerable body. This might be the same body as the Clone in the previous step.
    *Now, Fusion with a Splitting Ooze, and then manifest Astral Seed. We assume that your type is now Ooze (how this might be achieved is discussed under "Recommended Creatures").
    *Cast time hop on your Long Term Body Clone, and then die (shapechange into a construct or undead to lose your Con score, and you will lose the benefit of the Tarrasque's Regen)
    *Since your Clone is outside the timestream, your soul now transfers to your Astral Seed.
    *When you are reborn, you will have a nigh invulnerable Ooze body that also has Split.

    Producing the Initial Blob (minus the desire to kill you)
    *Create an Ice Assassin of yourself (codename: Bogeyman, as he wants to kill you)
    *Order the Bogeyman to cast Alter Self. He loses all his special qualities not derived from class levels, notably the immunities his normal form provides.
    *Order the Bogeyman to voluntarily fail his save on the next spell you cast on him. Cast Mindrape on the Bogeyman: Remove his urge to kill you. However, this counts as a severe change in personality, and can be reversed by Break Enchantment.
    *After resuming normal form, collect a sample from the brainwashed Bogeyman. Use it to create an Ice Assassin of the Bogeyman (codename: The Blob, who is identical to you, and wants to kill the Bogeyman).
    *Since the Bogeyman no longer had any desire to kill you when the sample was collected, neither should the Blob.
    *Additionally, unlike the Bogeyman, the Blob's lack of desire to kill you, is inherited from the Bogeyman's memories in the sample. The Blob was NEVER Mindraped directly, so its lack of desire to kill you cannot be reversed by Break Enchantment.
    *Get rid of the Bogeyman. The Blob in turn no longer has to worry about killing its already dead precursor, and can concentrate on more important things, like following your orders.

    Mass Producing the Blob
    *Poke the Blob a couple of times to triggers its Split ability. The resulting duplicates of the Blob, should be identical to the original Ice Assassin, which therefore means they all listen to you
    *You can keep poking the Blob to trigger Split until it has less than 10 HP. You can repair the Blob at the cost of 100 gp per HP.
    *Lets say a particular Blob is at 9 HP. Repairing this Blob back to 18 HP costs 900 gp, after which you can poke him again, and he splits again into 2 Blobs with 9 HP each.
    *You can now essentially produce copies of the Blob, at ~900 gp a pop.
    *I am assuming that Splitting "deals" lethal damage to the Ice Assassin, which can only be repaired rather than regenerated away. (The explicit wording of the Tarrasque regen is that no attacks deal lethal damage, whereas Split is not an attack, but is the creature's own ability.) But if you believe Split still does non-lethal damage, then the Blob can split and regen with virtually no limit!

    Getting Rid of Split
    *Split is a good ability for the Blob, but it is a bad ability for yourself, since Splits of yourself probably count as NPCs whom you exert no control over. Therefore after creating the Blob, we want to get rid of our own Split ability. (See also: The Prestige 2006).
    *Which is where the Long Term Body Clone comes in. Without Astral Seed, the next time you die, your Soul will transfer to the Clone, which should not have Split.


    Spoiler: Recommended Creatures
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    "You gotta wonder: if God made us in His image, who made him?"
    -Epps, referring to Optimus Prime. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009)

    Assuming for the moment that you were operating on a limited budget of some sort (as opposed to Shapechanging into a Zodar, and wishing for endless Scrolls of Ice Assassins), what is the minimum set of creatures required to achieve some semblance of invulnerability?

    First a few assumptions:
    *The final type of your fusion self, is based on which type is contributing the most HD. Without Ooze HD padding (see the bit on Oozes below), the Tarrasque alone with his 48 HD will outweigh virtually everything else. And if you add the secondary creatures, the 17 HD Chronotyryn, and 10 HD Nethersight Mastiff are also Magical Beasts.
    *Undead and Construct immunities are derived from their Type. Therefore an undead skeleton fused with a Tarrasque will have the type "Magical Beast", and lose their normal undead immunities. In essence, we assume that we cannot gain a whole host of immunities just by fusing with undead/constructs.
    *You might think that just throwing an Abomination into the mix will provide most of the immunities you want, but that is surprisingly not the case. Abominations lack: immunity to stunning/paralysis/critical hits (Phasm), immunity to Subdual (Leechwalker), immunity to Suffocation (Monadic Deva), Magic Immunity (Will O' Wisp), Freedom of Movement (Spider Eater). The only creature in the Primary Immunities list below, which is made redundant by an Abomination, is the Feytouched.

    Primary Creatures/Immunities
    Given these assumptions here are a few creatures with special qualities NOT based on their type, with important immunities being underlined. Note that it is disputable whether you can make an Ice Assassin of an Aleax that does not currently exist, as such the Aleax is not on this list:

    *Tarrasque (48 HD): The backbone of any nigh-invulnerable monster. Provides one of the most powerful forms of Regeneration available, which according to this unofficial FAQ even converts a sphere of annihilation to non-lethal. Arguably, this should also mean that the Holy Word line of spells are also converted into non-lethal damage. They also come with Immunity to fire, poison, disease, and energy drain. And their carapace deflects all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells.

    You might be wondering: If you gained the Tarrasque's regeneration, how would you die in order to be send your soul to the Astral Seed for the next part of the process? By RAW, Regeneration requires a constitution score, so if you shapechange into a Construct or Undead, you lose your Con score and no longer benefit from regen. Then stab yourself with a Construct or Undead slaying arrow (which is NOT a death effect) and voluntarily fail your save. Another way is to cast Trollshape [PHB2] which causes you to lose the immunities of your normal form. These methods can also be used to kill the Bogeyman.

    *Phasm (15 HD): An aberration that functions a lot like shapeshifting Ooze and has the immunities to match. Their Amorphous quality gives them immunity to: poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunning, critical hits and flanking (and arguably always makes the resultant creature look like a literal blob regardless of what other creatures you blend in). Also has Telepathy 100 ft, and provides Alternate Form to any Large or smaller form, so it can disguise itself to get around unnoticed.

    *Will o' Wisp (9 HD): Magic Immunity to everything except Magic Missile (blocked by Tarrasque Carapace) and Maze. Also comes with unwinged 50' perfect flight, and Ex natural invisibility.

    *Ochre Jelly (6 HD) or Black Pudding (10 HD) : Provides the Split Ability, which gives Immunity to Slashing/Piercing. Also has Blindsight 60 ft.

    *Spider Eater (4 HD): Constant Supernatural Freedom of Movement. Can fly 60' with Good maneuverability.

    *Leechwalker [MM2] (13 HD): Immune to subdual damage (one of the very few non-epic living creatures that does so), ability damage, ability drain, or death from massive damage.

    *Ocean Giant [MM2] (18 HD): Amphibious and provides the Blob a Swim speed. Immune to Bludgeoning (Ooze Split blocks Slash+Pierce). This triple immunity to weapon damage is necessary: If the Blob ever goes up against Sertrous [Elder Evils 115], and their Poison Immunity is suppressed by his Poisoner's Breath, they remain invulnerable to Trollbane on weapons. Also provides landform (probably a Change Shape) to Huge Giant, and Rock Throwing/Catching, a reliable range attack.

    *Monadic Deva [MM2] (10 HD): Immune to all death spells and magical death effects (one of the very few non-epic living creatures that does so), ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. And their Ex Elemental Ease effectively makes them immune to suffocation. As Celestials, they are also Immune to Petrification. Also immune to Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid. Although not immune to starvation and thirst, they can cast Create Food and Water SLA at will, as well as Plane Shift 3/day. Projects an aura of Magic Circle against Evil, which hedges out non-mind affecting attempts to exert control like Magic Jar and Demonic Possession. Can fly 90' with Good maneuverability.

    *Feytouched [Fiend Folio] (1 HD): Or, if you can lay your hands on one, an Abomination will also work. Provides Immunity to Mind Affecting. The Abomination is also immune to form-altering attack.

    Achieving Ooze Type and its advantages
    *As mentioned above, we assume that the Type of the resulting fusion is based on which Type contributes the most HD to the fusion. Hence to make the fusion creature an Ooze, all you have to do is include a bunch of Oozes.
    *Since these Oozes are there merely to pad HD, they do not have to be at full strength. If budget is an issue, you can use Simulacrum of Oozes rather than Ice Assassins. (E.g. both Elder Black Puddings and Bone Oozes (MM2) have 20 HD. So their Simulacra come with 10 HD and cost 1000 XP/1000 GP)
    *Why do we want the Ooze type? Oozes are explicitly immune to Trait Removal [Serpent Kingdoms].
    *Also Oozes are one of the very few creatures which can explicitly squeeze through much smaller spaces. Hence, even if the Colossal Blob is stuck in an AMF, it can flow its way out through something as small as a keyhole. (In this regard, Black Puddings are preferable to Bone Oozes, as Bone Oozes can only squeeze through 5x5 spaces as a full round action. However Bone Oozes have a very powerful attack that drains Str/Dex/Con).
    *Finally Oozes are explicitly immune to Vorpal Weapons

    Secondary Immunities/Abilities
    The following creatures provide secondary immunities, and other useful abilities:

    *Solar (22 HD): The main feature here is 20th level Cleric Casting, and Wish as an SLA. Also comes with Change Shape, so that the Blob can disguise itself as humanoid and still fight well (unlike Phasm's Alternate Form, Change Shape allows the Blob to retain the Tarrasque's strength).

    *Chronotyryn [Fiend Folio] (17 HD): Sonic Immunity (Monadic Deva blocks all the other energy types). Also has Dual Action, and some very nice SLAs like Greater Teleport at Will, and Time Stop 3/day.

    *Nethersight Mastiff (10 HD): Continuous Su True Seeing, Bite is Ghost Touch Weapon vs Incorporeal/Ethereal, Can grapple and drag Ethereal opponents into Material Plane.

    *Warblade: Who knows White Raven Tactics (see Miscellaneous Tricks) and Iron Heart Surge (useful for getting rid of everything from AMF/DMZ, to Starvation)


    Spoiler: Weaknesses
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    All of the following have to be Supernatural Spells, to overcome the Will O' Wisp Magic Immunity:

    Certain
    *Supernatural Graymantle: Can shutdown the Blob's regeneration.
    *Sertrous [Elder Evils 115] has a Poisoner's Breath that suppresses immunity to poison with no save. This leaves the Blob open to Trollbane, but not Trollbane applied through a weapon (dues to triple weapon damage immunity). This can be combined with Surge of Fortune (to autohit the touch attack) Poison Spell [Drow of the Underdark] using Trollbane [Dungeonscape] as the material component for Supernatural Touch Spells (such as Harm), to get the spell damage to ignore Regeneration.

    Uncertain
    *Supernatural Ability Rip: Transmutation spell. It is uncertain whether an Abomination's immunity to form-altering attacks will block them. Even if it does not, note that most of their immunities are Ex, so Trait Removal alone should not be able to remove any of them.

    *Transcend Mortality: This spell is normally personal range only, but it can be cast on a Blob via Spellguard of the Silvery Moon or Energy Transformation Field. This is one of those unstoppable force meets immovable objects rules collision. Transcend Mortality states:
    When the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust (as disintegrate). This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means
    The second half (can't be prevented by any means), can be interpreted to mean that nothing can prevent the disintegrate effect from occurring (although timeless body might delay it for a while).
    Whereas Tarrasque regen states:
    The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect.
    Can be interpreted as meaning that when the Disintegrate effect DOES occur, the Tarrasque STILL regenerates from it.

    Removed
    *Supernatural Trait Removal: If you manage to get the Blob's type to be Ooze (via HD padding), it will be immune to Ability Rip.


    Spoiler: Miscellaneous Tricks
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    Infinite/Rapid Self Propagation
    If you include a Solar in the Blob, it gains the Wish SLA. It can wish for 25000 gp worth of the materials needed to repair itself, to regain 250 HP.
    *Lets say a Blob starts with 8 HP
    *With 25000 gp worth of materials, it repairs itself back up to 258 HP
    *The Blob pokes itself multiple times, each time halving its HP, and doubling its number
    *1st Poke: 2 Blobs with 129 HP
    *2nd Poke: 4 Blobs with 64 HP (round down)
    *3rd Poke: 8 Blobs with 32 HP
    *4th Poke: 16 Blobs with 16 HP
    *5th Poke: 32 Blobs with 8 HP

    In this way, a single Blob with 8 HP can multiply into 32 Blobs with 8 HP within a day, without requiring any additional resources from you. If given a week, a single Blob can split into ~34,359,738,368 blobs. This is probably more than enough to steamroll over the Nine Hells. If you add time accelerated demiplane shenanigans, it gets even more ridiculous really fast (and if the demiplane starts feeling too small, have some of the Blobs wish for Scrolls of Genesis).

    Unlike the usual strategy of chain-gating Solars, chain-splitting Blobs does not run the risk of depleting the upper planes of their most powerful champions.

    Infinite Action Loop: Dual Action + White Raven Tactics
    For this trick to work, the Blob needs to have a means of reliably recovering White Raven Tactics (either include a Warblade in the Fusion, or you can take a 1 level dip in Warblade after level 9). Once you have both, you can combo this with Chronotyryn Dual Action to effectively get nigh-infinite turns in a round.

    Quite simply, in the 2 rounds of apparent action that Dual Action provides, you can spend the first round recovering WRT. Then spend the swift action of the 2nd round to use WRT on yourself, so you can act again at current initiative -1. If it is ruled that White Raven Tactics cannot be used on yourself, this trick still works, but you need 2 blobs to spam WRT on one another. (Note that this only works with Chronotyryn which can take 2 swift actions per round, whereas the Choker's Quickness only lets it use one more standard+move action per round, but not 2 swifts).


    Spoiler: Super Psion: Mindflayer + Voidmind + Limitless Split
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    The downside to using Ice Assassin is that it is expensive to repair, which in turn limits its Split ability. This is an alternate version of the Blob using Voidmind to retain control, which then allows the Blob to fast heal normally, and Split for free. The downside is that (like the original Emerald Legion) Voidmind control is based off supernatural Dominate, and is suppressed in an AMF (and which *might* be hedged out by Protection from Evil).

    Basically you have to be a Mind Flayer who can apply the Voidmind Template. Either start off as one (not advisable due to the LA) or once you are ready to ascend, use the fusion+astral seed trick to make yourself count as one.

    Next, you have to accumulate the creatures going into the fusion WITHOUT relying on Ice Assassin. Either hire them, turn them into Voidmind puppets, or use Dominate on creatures not subject to Bribery/Voidmind (The Tarrasque is too big, and Ooze is not a valid type for Voidmind - and you will need to find or make a Sentient Splitting Ooze in order to use Dominate on it).

    In addition to the creatures previously listed above, you should include:
    *A creature that has fast-healing
    *A creature that has Ferocity such as a Boar, so that it can continue to operate even when dying/disabled.
    *A Psion (or a creature which casts as a Psion such as an Elder Brain) that can manifest fusion/astral seed.

    ENSURE THAT THE PSION IS A VOIDMIND UNDER YOUR CONTROL!

    Note that Voidmind comes with immunity to mind-affecting, so you can get rid of the feytouched. (But get an abomination if you can lay your hands on one, as it still provides immunity to form altering attacks).

    Have the Psion fuse all the creatures together, and manifest Astral Seed (note that nothing in Fusion says that you can only fuse with one creature at a time). Then, kill the Psion, and it will be reborn from the Astral Seed as a nigh-unkillable monster (codename: Super-Psion). Super-Psion will STILL retain its Voidmind template, and you can hence dominate him at will.

    Since none of the input creatures were Ice Assassins, as a result the Super-Psion has NONE of the limitations of the Ice Assassin. It can therefore heal normally and gain XP. And when you poke the Super-Psion, it will split into 2 Super-Psions, and with fast healing it can heal right back up. Let's say that a Super-Psion has Fast Healing 1, and currently has 6 HP. In 6 rounds it will heal back up to 12 HP, after which it can poke itself to split into 2 Super-Psions with 6 HP each. The doubling time with (Fast Healing 1) has dropped to 6 rounds!
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2015-06-11 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Any thoughts?
    -Any means of blocking their Weaknesses
    -Any other weaknesses I might have missed?
    -Any means of gaining explicit immunity to starvation instead of merely relying on Create Food and Water Spam (To prevent starvation in case the Blob is trapped in an AMF/DMZ)? Although technically, a Blob which includes the Warblade could Iron Heart Surge away starvation, or the AMF/DMZ...

    Apparently Keepers [Fiend Folio] are living outsiders who have immunity to effects that require a Fort save, unless it affects objects. This protects against Trait Removal/Greymantle. Unfortunately, Keepers also have the Dissolution quality, which means they automatically die if held helpless for 10 rounds. anybody know of a way to get their Immunities without the downside of Dissolution? The only means I am aware of is to use a hagunemnon Alter Shape to emulate Keeper immunities.
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2015-06-10 at 09:50 PM.
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    Spoiler
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    Theoretical Optimization Amusements
    Emerald Legion A Mind Flayer's guide to breeding Ikea Tarrasques
    The Blob Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux through Fusion+Astral Seed
    Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round.
    Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy nigh infinite melee damage exploit.

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    I feel a bit lost trying to follow this entire process. What is the entire process?
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    -Any means of gaining explicit immunity to starvation instead of merely relying on Create Food and Water Spam?
    Good old SRD Ring of Sustenance does this. I have no idea what else is going on in this process.

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    I feel a bit lost trying to follow this entire process. What is the entire process?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I have no idea what else is going on in this process.
    OK, I've added a "Process Summary" spoiler, which should hopefully clear things up.

    Edit: Come to think of it, I should probably simplify everything into the Process Summary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Good old SRD Ring of Sustenance does this.
    I suppose I should clarify: I'm trying to find an Ex means of becoming immune to starvation, so that the Blob can spend extended time in a Dead Magic Zone without issue.
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2015-06-08 at 01:41 AM.
    Trissociate: 3.5 Homebrew Base Class. Mix & match abilites & templates to make virtually any sort of character!
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    Emerald Legion A Mind Flayer's guide to breeding Ikea Tarrasques
    The Blob Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux through Fusion+Astral Seed
    Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round.
    Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy nigh infinite melee damage exploit.

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    I suppose I should clarify: I'm trying to find an Ex means of becoming immune to starvation, so that the Blob can spend extended time in a Dead Magic Zone without issue.
    Well, if you can get an Outsider type on you, you no longer need to eat, sleep, or breathe as a feature of the type - note native outsiders still have to eat, sleep, and breathe. Monk 20 does this, but I'm sure you're not that desperate

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    I feel like i need to nitpick a little bit of maths. A blob that has 250 hp (from it's wish SLA) can be divided 5 times (250, 125, 62, 31, 15, 8), each time doubling, which is 2^5 blobs each day per blob, meaning 1 blob turns into 32 blobs. I dunno why you divided by 9 to get 27?

    Ideally, you'd want to find the most cost effective means to heal then split, then heal again, without wasting extra hp. For example, healing to 176 (starting at 5, so only costing 171hp worth of healing) will still let you split 5 times, while leaving 79hp of healing left, at which point you could heal up to 44 (costing 39 healing), which gives you another 3 splits, leaving you with 40 healing, allowing you to repeat that last step

    All up, with 250 hp of healing per day, you can get a total of ((2^5)-1)+2*((2^3)-1)+1, which means 1 blob can turn into 47 blobs each day. After a week, you could actually have 506,623,120,463, a significant bump up, though to be fair, both numbers are still rediculously high.
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    If Blob is totally identical to the Bogeyman, won't he also copy the Bogeyman's programming to kill you? So once you off the Bogeyman, he will be left only wanting to kill you.

    This is why I always raise an eyebrow at the concept of Ice Assassin'ing yourself.


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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If Blob is totally identical to the Bogeyman, won't he also copy the Bogeyman's programming to kill you? So once you off the Bogeyman, he will be left only wanting to kill you.

    This is why I always raise an eyebrow at the concept of Ice Assassin'ing yourself.
    I've always been of the mind that you can just make an ice assassin that is basically just a super-simulacrum, without the whole "MUST MURDER MY COPY!" directive. That's from a DM's perspective. I don't see why it wouldn't be too hard to change the spell ever so slightly to remove that. If necessary, just research a version of ice assassin minus that bit, and call it greater simulacrum or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I've always been of the mind that you can just make an ice assassin that is basically just a super-simulacrum, without the whole "MUST MURDER MY COPY!" directive. That's from a DM's perspective. I don't see why it wouldn't be too hard to change the spell ever so slightly to remove that. If necessary, just research a version of ice assassin minus that bit, and call it greater simulacrum or something.
    The problem is that it's already 9th-level - to go greater than that, you need epic magic, in which case all bets are off anyway because you can literally do anything (and then mitigate it down to DC 5 by chain-gating 4000 Solars to contribute spell slots.)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I feel like i need to nitpick a little bit of maths. A blob that has 250 hp (from it's wish SLA) can be divided 5 times (250, 125, 62, 31, 15, 8), each time doubling, which is 2^5 blobs each day per blob, meaning 1 blob turns into 32 blobs. I dunno why you divided by 9 to get 27?
    It's based on the quick back-of-envelope calculations, that if each Blob has 9 HP, then 250 HP worth of Blob will give you 27 blobs.

    But I see your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Ideally, you'd want to find the most cost effective means to heal then split, then heal again, without wasting extra hp. For example, healing to 176 (starting at 5, so only costing 171hp worth of healing) will still let you split 5 times, while leaving 79hp of healing left, at which point you could heal up to 44 (costing 39 healing), which gives you another 3 splits, leaving you with 40 healing, allowing you to repeat that last step
    The thing to keep in mind is that healing/repairing an Ice Assassin takes a days work, so multiple repair steps don't quite work: By the end of the first step, the Blob(s) would have recovered their 1/day Wish SLA and are ready to conjure more materials.

    In terms of ease of calculation, it would be easiest for each Blob function individually: Repair in one shot, Split in one shot, Wish for more materials, and then repeat each day.

    In terms of optimized calculation, the Blobs would pool their materials together in the following way: Each Blob would start off with 6 HP. After wishing for the materials, they each draw out enough to repair themselves by 6*((2^n) - 1) HP. For the most Blobs, this would be 184 HP (repairing it to 192 HP, and then splitting 5 times into 32 copies with 6 HP each). Although as the excess material accumulates, there would be the occasional Blob who could draw out 378 HP worth (repairing to 384 HP, and then splitting 6 times into 64 copies with 6 HP each). But the exact calculations get complicated really fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If Blob is totally identical to the Bogeyman, won't he also copy the Bogeyman's programming to kill you? So once you off the Bogeyman, he will be left only wanting to kill you.
    This is one of those "rules do not explicitly state so" areas.

    Ice Assassin explicity states that it has "all the ... memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original."

    So Bogeyman has your memories, BUT his desire to kill you is NOT based on his memories (which are shared with you anyway), but is due to an all-consuming twist to his personality.

    Similarly, Blob inherits the same memories as Bogeyman. But it's own personality is twisted (again).

    Whether the Blob wants to kill you, depends on whether there is anything left of the original Bogeyman personality in the Blob. Arguably, an all-consuming personality wanting to slay the Bogeyman, would entirely overwrite the Bogeyman's original personality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Whether the Blob wants to kill you, depends on whether there is anything left of the original Bogeyman personality in the Blob. Arguably, an all-consuming personality wanting to slay the Bogeyman, would entirely overwrite the Bogeyman's original personality.
    But that argument is a double-edged sword. Nowhere does it say that "all-consuming need" goes away once the job is done; if you slay the Bogeyman, the Blob is left with an all-consuming need to kill something that no longer exists, which could be interpreted to mean that it just stands there dividing by zero and useless for anything else until its target comes back to life somehow. For a Big Bad using the IA for its intended purpose, i.e. actually assassinating someone, this isn't much of an issue, but for the TO builds that want to use the IA to do... well, just about anything except assassinate something, it presents a dilemma.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But that argument is a double-edged sword. Nowhere does it say that "all-consuming need" goes away once the job is done; if you slay the Bogeyman, the Blob is left with an all-consuming need to kill something that no longer exists, which could be interpreted to mean that it just stands there dividing by zero and useless for anything else until its target comes back to life somehow.
    Technically, Ice Assassin mentions nothing about what happens to the IA, when the original is destroyed. In the absence of explicit rules, it would be reasonable to assume that the IA acts like a being (with its given memories and stats) would act. And standing there dividing by zero is probably not what an ultra-intelligent/wise super-being would reasonably do after fulfilling his greatest life wish.

    And it still remains under your absolute command.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The problem is that it's already 9th-level - to go greater than that, you need epic magic, in which case all bets are off anyway because you can literally do anything (and then mitigate it down to DC 5 by chain-gating 4000 Solars to contribute spell slots.)
    But you aren't really going greater by taking something away from a spell. You'd be making it lesser, wouldn't you? Nothing is being added, only things being removed, so I don't see why it would warrant an increase in spell level. I probably wouldn't say it warrants a decrease either, since not enough is taken away, it's still a super powerful spell, but yeah, I wouldn't say it would need to go up either.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    The thing to keep in mind is that healing/repairing an Ice Assassin takes a days work, so multiple repair steps don't quite work: By the end of the first step, the Blob(s) would have recovered their 1/day Wish SLA and are ready to conjure more materials.

    In terms of ease of calculation, it would be easiest for each Blob function individually: Repair in one shot, Split in one shot, Wish for more materials, and then repeat each day.
    Ah you're right, I forgot that the whole thing takes a day each time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    In terms of optimized calculation, the Blobs would pool their materials together in the following way: Each Blob would start off with 6 HP. After wishing for the materials, they each draw out enough to repair themselves by 6*((2^n) - 1) HP. For the most Blobs, this would be 184 HP (repairing it to 192 HP, and then splitting 5 times into 32 copies with 6 HP each). Although as the excess material accumulates, there would be the occasional Blob who could draw out 378 HP worth (repairing to 384 HP, and then splitting 6 times into 64 copies with 6 HP each). But the exact calculations get complicated really fast.
    You'd want to use 176 for ultimate efficiency, since when divided by 2, it eventually reaches 11, the lowest number that it can still split with, then it gets split to 5, rather than basing it off 12. But yes, it would be 5 splits a day, and every so often, 6 splits with the leftover money
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    There is an elder evil with a Su aura that negates poison immunity. Combined with trollbane, that's another mechanism for attack.

    You're probably trying to cover Transcend mortality via Tarrasque regeneration in the unofficial FAQ. I could imagine a DM ruling the other way as the language is similarly absolute.
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    OK in response to Psyren's post, I've figured a way to bypass Immunity to Magic/Mindaffecting, and added an intermediate step of mindraping the Bogeyman. So now the Blob (based off the brainwashed Bogeyman) will not have any desire to kill you.

    I've also added a note on padding the HD with Oozes so that it gains the Ooze type, and therefore immunity to Trait Removal, as well as the ability to squeeze through keyholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    There is an elder evil with a Su aura that negates poison immunity. Combined with trollbane, that's another mechanism for attack.
    I take it you are referring to Sertrous Poisoner's Breath [Elder Evils 115].

    There is still the triple weapon damage immunity as backup (Ooze Split provides immunity to Slashing and Piercing, and Ocean Giant has immunity to bludgeoning).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You're probably trying to cover Transcend mortality via Tarrasque regeneration in the unofficial FAQ. I could imagine a DM ruling the other way as the language is similarly absolute.
    The Unofficial FAQ rules on Sphere of Annihilation, rather than Transcend Mortality (admittedly the FAQ has a lot of holes in it).

    Transcend Mortality states:
    When the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust (as disintegrate). This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means
    The second half (can't be prevented by any means), can be interpreted to mean that nothing can prevent the disintegrate effect from occurring (although timeless body might delay it for a while).

    Whereas Tarrasque regen states:
    The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect.
    Can be interpreted as meaning that when the Disintegrate effect DOES occur, the Tarrasque STILL regenerates from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    -Any means of gaining explicit immunity to starvation instead of merely relying on Create Food and Water Spam (To prevent starvation in case the Blob is trapped in an AMF/DMZ)?

    Having read around these forum a bit I'm surprised nobody has suggested Iron Heart Surging the starvation away

    alternatively you could have your blob do a bit of dark chaos shuffle and grab vow of poverty. If they ever need to use a magic item they can shuffle the vow away and then bring it back before they get hungry. This was all purely theoretical right? :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMartin View Post
    Having read around these forum a bit I'm surprised nobody has suggested Iron Heart Surging the starvation away
    That is actually a pretty good suggestion. I will add a note on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMartin View Post
    alternatively you could have your blob do a bit of dark chaos shuffle and grab vow of poverty. If they ever need to use a magic item they can shuffle the vow away and then bring it back before they get hungry. This was all purely theoretical right? :D
    Unfortunately, VoP prevents the Blob from "owning" the materials it needs to repair itself/reproduce.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    I take it you are referring to Sertrous Poisoner's Breath [Elder Evils 115].

    There is still the triple weapon damage immunity as backup (Ooze Split provides immunity to Slashing and Piercing, and Ocean Giant has immunity to bludgeoning).
    But, what if you use Surge of Fortune, discharge it as an immediate action and use it for an attack roll with Poison Spell [Trollbane] Supenatural Harm with Sertrous Poisoner's Breath?

    Discharging Surge of Fortune gives:
    Quote Originally Posted by Surge of Fortune
    The result of the next attack roll...is treated as a natural 20.
    Poison spell modifies:
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollbane
    A successful hit with a slashing or piercing weapon ... will expose the target to the poison.
    to be:
    Quote Originally Posted by Poison Spell
    The target of the spell ... is also exposed to the poison.
    which along with
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoner's Breath
    This breath suppresses any immunity to poison a victim possesses...
    is a save:no, SR:no, never miss attack that penetrates regeneration.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Can be interpreted as meaning that when the Disintegrate effect DOES occur, the Tarrasque STILL regenerates from it.
    That interpretation is inline with the FAQ, but I could easiliy see a DM going the other way as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post

    Unfortunately, VoP prevents the Blob from "owning" the materials it needs to repair itself/reproduce.
    True...but maybe a Blob could tell the gentle and altruistic Solar they have gated in to conjure the materials to repair one of their blob brothers instead of themselves (vow of poverty still allows you to benefit from magic items used on your behalf, noting that you can benefit for instance from a cure wound potions a fellow party member gives you). So Blob #500 conjures a solar to repair Blob #501, Blob #501 conjure a solar to repair Blob #502, and so on...

    an individual Blob could theoretically also tell the Solar to repair himself since hes not at any time owning or touching the materials, but conjuring stuff to repair one of your brethren is maybe slightly more in line with the intended usage and role of vow of poverty. emphasis on slightly.

    Alternatively the blobs can just keep an abyssal heritor feat "on hold" while they are reproducing and shun it for vow of poverty when they are not being repaired

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    But you aren't really going greater by taking something away from a spell. You'd be making it lesser, wouldn't you? Nothing is being added, only things being removed, so I don't see why it would warrant an increase in spell level. I probably wouldn't say it warrants a decrease either, since not enough is taken away, it's still a super powerful spell, but yeah, I wouldn't say it would need to go up either.
    See this is not quite true. You don't actually take something away but actually add something ... namely versatility.
    The will to murder the target by all means possible is not a bonus or just a feature of the spell but an actual limitation on its useability. Therefor assuming that a spell without that limitation (with a fully functional copy you can still convince to kill whoever you want -> use diplomacy cheese) would be higher level is very, very reasonable.
    Last edited by Feint's End; 2015-06-10 at 12:52 PM.

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    The ooze Split ability works based on the original's current hit points. It says that it creates two identical oozes, each with half of the original's current hit points.
    Would manifesting Vigor for an amount of temporary hit points equal to the original's maximum prior to the split allow for unlimited splitting?
    Would manifesting Vigor for an amount of temp. hp greater than your original maximum hit points generate oozes with more hit points than the original?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    But, what if you use Surge of Fortune, discharge it as an immediate action and use it for an attack roll with Poison Spell [Trollbane] Supenatural Harm with Sertrous Poisoner's Breath?
    Hmm... That might work in theory. I will note that down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    That interpretation is inline with the FAQ, but I could easiliy see a DM going the other way as well.
    True. I suppose I have to find a way for it to become immune to touch attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feint's End View Post
    See this is not quite true. You don't actually take something away but actually add something ... namely versatility.
    The will to murder the target by all means possible is not a bonus or just a feature of the spell but an actual limitation on its useability. Therefor assuming that a spell without that limitation (with a fully functional copy you can still convince to kill whoever you want -> use diplomacy cheese) would be higher level is very, very reasonable.
    That is NOT how Ice Assassin Works. The IA is explicitly under your "Absolute Command", and hence you can order it to attack whomever you want. If you order it to go squish Sally the Succubus standing over there, it WILL comply. Its desire to kill the original will only kick in if it is given a choice (e.g. you order it to fight an army, and the original is part of that army, it will target the original first).

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMartin View Post
    The ooze Split ability works based on the original's current hit points. It says that it creates two identical oozes, each with half of the original's current hit points.
    Would manifesting Vigor for an amount of temporary hit points equal to the original's maximum prior to the split allow for unlimited splitting?
    Not really, a DM would probably rule that the Split would split normal and temp HP as well. E.g. Lets say a Blob has 18 HP and 18 temp HP. After splitting, each half would have 9 HP and 9 temp HP.

    It occurs to me that there IS a way to accomplish unlimited free Splitting, but... it requires you to be a Mindflayer.

    -Basically you accumulate the creatures going into the fusion by capturing them and then control them by applying the Voidmind ritual (as per the original Emerald Legion) or by Dominating the creatures not subject to Voidmind. (The Tarrasque is too big, and Ooze is not a valid type for Voidmind- You will need to find a Sentient Splitting Ooze in order to use Dominate on it).
    -In addition to the creatures in the list above, you should include some creature that has fast-healing, and a Psion (or a creature that casts as a Psion such as an Elder Brain) that can manifest fusion/astral seed.
    -ENSURE THAT THE PSION IS A VOIDMIND UNDER YOUR CONTROL
    -Then you have the Psion fuse them together, and manifest Astral Seed (note that nothing in Fusion says that you can only fuse with one creature at a time)
    -Kill the Psion, it will be reborn from the Astral Seed as a nigh-unkillable monster (codename: Super-Psion), but which STILL retains its Voidmind template, and remains under your control
    -Since none of the input creatures were Ice Assassins, as a result the Super-Psion has NONE of the limitations of the Ice Assassin. It can therefore heal normally and gain XP.
    -When you poke the Super-Psion, it will split into 2 Super-Psions, and with fast healing it can heal right back up.

    Edit: The downside to Super-Psion is that you are relying on Dominate-like effect to control the Voidmind, which can be shut off in an AMF. And the Dominate-like effect MAY be hedged out by Protection from Evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post

    Not really, a DM would probably rule that the Split would split normal and temp HP as well. E.g. Lets say a Blob has 18 HP and 18 temp HP. After splitting, each half would have 9 HP and 9 temp HP.

    I agree it wouldn't work, but most of the procedure wouldn't fly with any DM i know anyway but it opens up an interesting line of thought on oozes and the source of identity :D namely what happens to spell effects when the ooze splits. If the two new oozes still have the original's enchantments that means that there is some connection between the ooze before and the oozes after the split,so what would happen if on the round following their split, one of them manifest Timeless Body, and the other manifests Temporal regression? One of these scenarios takes place, I think basically up to the DM ruling:

    A: nothing happens, the ooze cannot travel back in time because it did not exist one round ago (Ruling: The ooze after the split is a different individual from the generating ooze).
    B: Second ooze travels back 1 round, re-acquiring the hp it had before the split. The first ooze ceases to exist (Ruling: the "children" oozes are still the same creature they were before the split. Timeless Body was manifested after the split, and the split never happened, so there is nobody to manifest it and nobody to manifest it on).
    C: Second ooze travels back 1 round into time, re-acquiring the hp it had before the split. 1 round later, the other ooze appears out of nowhere (Ruling: Timeless Body was manifested before Temporal Regression, and protects against all effects of any nature, including being erased from space and time from not being "born")

    I think I'd rule B, but i can see also A (keep time-travel shenanigans at a minimum) and C (they're both 9th level spell, they are supposed to give reality the funk) as possible.

    A lot of "Ifs" and ruling involved as the Split ability is rather..succinct in its description of what and who the two new individuals really are.

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Firstly, aren't we forget about the Fusion requirements?
    Target: You and one touched willing creature of your type and your size or smaller
    To turn into Ooze, you need to be Ooze
    But Oozes are Mindless, so will be you until the transformation ends
    EDIT: Also, how exactly the Mindless Ooze can be "willing"?

    And secondly - ultimate shutdown to all that idea (Tippy's trick): you can't use Fusion on Ice Assassin - Fusion should be manifested on a willing creature; Ice Assassin is not a creature, it's spell effect - "duplicate creature" not necessary a creature itself
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2015-06-11 at 07:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    That is NOT how Ice Assassin Works. The IA is explicitly under your "Absolute Command", and hence you can order it to attack whomever you want. If you order it to go squish Sally the Succubus standing over there, it WILL comply. Its desire to kill the original will only kick in if it is given a choice (e.g. you order it to fight an army, and the original is part of that army, it will target the original first
    You missed the point I was trying to make. By strict RAW you are probably right albeit I have seen other interpretations too on how exactly this absolute control works. Now let's assume that your dm is one of the people who is of the opinion that absolute control won't stop every attempt of the creature working against you (which might very well work from some points of view -> countless stories where somebody who was under absolute control worked against the controller by taking orders too literal and/or willingly ignoring danger) then we have a problem.

    We have 2 cases now. In case 1 removing the need to murder doesn't really do all that much making it basically just as good as the regular spell. In case 2 however removing the need to murder is a straight versatility and safety upgrade to the regular spell.

    To give a more interesting example (albeit it's a bit of a hyperbole) imagine removing the range from, say, fireball. Now in most cases this won't make a difference since almost all combats take place in less than the max range. However it might be better in some cases than it previously was although you removed something. Because the thing you removed was actually a limitation put on the spell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Firstly, aren't we forget about the Fusion requirements? To turn into Ooze, you need to be Ooze
    But Oozes are Mindless, so will be you until the transformation ends
    I never noticed that the power short description was different than the text, where the limitation to the target are different (You and another willing, corporeal, living creature of the same or smaller size fuse into one being.) So if the table wins you have to be an ooze to become an ooze, but on the other hand you can fusion with an incorporeal being, with undeads, plants and constructs. I think that at my table I would allow cross-type fusion (makes for funnier results), but restricts it to living creatures as the long text suggests.

    So if you rule that you could fuse with an ooze you wouldn't become mindless: you retain the highest intelligence score of the fusion's participants, and being mindless is not a trait shared by all oozes (srd allows for the chance of oozes to not be mindless, listing the skill points they would get and saying that individual oozes may not have all the type traits).

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    EDIT: Also, how exactly the Mindless Ooze can be "willing"?
    This is a very good point! and could sadly shut down the whole factory. Even Juiblex, the patron demon of slimy things, does not have any form of control over the oozes it creates and summons.
    I remember a rule somewhere stating than any unconscious creature is automatically willing, so the question really becomes: how do you make an ooze unconscious? Splitting oozes die when they reach 0 hit points, so they never go unconscious - it seems like the game designer truly thought of everything :D
    EDIT: it seems that oozes are immune to stunning, but not to nonlethal damage, unless there's a ruling somewhere that says that the two things are the same. So you could pummel an ooze into unconsciousness (making it a willing target) this way, I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    And secondly - ultimate shutdown to all that idea (Tippy's trick): you can't use Fusion on Ice Assassin - Fusion should be manifested on a willing creature; Ice Assassin is not a creature, it's spell effect - "duplicate creature" not necessary a creature itself
    I would think that a duplicate creature is still a creature - is written right there after all, just after "duplicate". If it was not a creature it couldn't be affected by anything that affect creatures and i think that would initiate its own can of worms - and make a *really* badly written spell even more maddening, if possible

    (I always thought that tippy's trick would be shut down by astral seed creating an exact duplicate of the body at the time it is manifested - so with fusion still going on and a duration that at some point expires. )
    Last edited by DrMartin; 2015-06-11 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    As always, this is merely a theoretical optimization exercise, and its use in an actual game is not recommended.
    Excellent work. And we know you really don't mean that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Hmm... That might work in theory. I will note that down.
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    Default Re: The Blob: Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques Redux

    OK, Wow. There are a lot of things I have to reply to, so apologies if I miss something or someone out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Firstly, aren't we forget about the Fusion requirements? To turn into Ooze, you need to be Ooze
    I am not forgetting it, it was just such a minor point, that I (and apparently Tippy as well) didn't bother to note it down. Remember, Polymorph changes a creature's type.

    So lets say you are a human. You can cast Polymorph on the tarrasque to change it into a halfling. It is now a small humanoid, and becomes a legit target for Fusion. After the fusion, you can dismiss polymorph, and it becomes a Tarrasque again, regaining all its abilities while STILL in fusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    But Oozes are Mindless, so will be you until the transformation ends
    Not according to RAW. You can explicitly polymorph into an Ooze, and retain your mental stats.

    Also, while MOST Oozes are mindless, but some are not. See the Summoning Ooze [MM3].

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    EDIT: Also, how exactly the Mindless Ooze can be "willing"?
    If you are using the Ice Assassin/Simulacrum version of the Ooze, it is under your "Absolute Command". You can order it to be willing. (Also see Animate Dead, Skeletons and Zombies, and Inflict Light Wounds.)

    If you are using the Mind Flayer/Dominate Ooze version, I did mention that you have to find a Sentry Ooze [Dungeonscape] which is NOT mindless, and which loses its mind-affecting immunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    And secondly - ultimate shutdown to all that idea (Tippy's trick): you can't use Fusion on Ice Assassin - Fusion should be manifested on a willing creature; Ice Assassin is not a creature, it's spell effect - "duplicate creature" not necessary a creature itself
    In the vast majority of circumstances, a duplicate of something also counts as that type of something. A Duplicate Key is still a Key. A Duplicate of Data is still Data. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feint's End View Post
    You missed the point I was trying to make. By strict RAW you are probably right albeit I have seen other interpretations too on how exactly this absolute control works. Now let's assume that your dm is one of the people who is of the opinion that absolute control won't stop every attempt of the creature working against you (which might very well work from some points of view -> countless stories where somebody who was under absolute control worked against the controller by taking orders too literal and/or willingly ignoring danger) then we have a problem.
    Which is why the Bogeyman only needs to follow one very simple and literal command: Take no actions and fail your save against the next spell (Mindrape) I cast on you.

    After that you can gather a sample and use it to make the Blob. and get rid of the Bogeyman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feint's End View Post
    We have 2 cases now. In case 1 removing the need to murder doesn't really do all that much making it basically just as good as the regular spell. In case 2 however removing the need to murder is a straight versatility and safety upgrade to the regular spell.
    Keep in mind that you are not just removing the urge to kill, you are also removing part of its utility (like the ability to use Locate Creature at will on the original), which is a clear decrease in versatility/power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feint's End View Post
    To give a more interesting example (albeit it's a bit of a hyperbole) imagine removing the range from, say, fireball. Now in most cases this won't make a difference since almost all combats take place in less than the max range. However it might be better in some cases than it previously was although you removed something. Because the thing you removed was actually a limitation put on the spell.
    Assuming they have the same spell level/damage/etc, how exactly is a fireball with shorter range, better than a fireball with longer range?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMartin View Post
    (I always thought that tippy's trick would be shut down by astral seed creating an exact duplicate of the body at the time it is manifested - so with fusion still going on and a duration that at some point expires. )
    This was brought up before
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    3) Some DMs will make the Astral Seed effect 'remember' the buff list, including durations, from when it was used. So when you come back from your Astral Seed, the Fusion resumes, times out, and you found an interesting way of duplicating Ice Assassins or an odd way of making someone mysteriously vanish off the face of the world with no immediately-apparent cause.
    Tippy's response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    The rules don't support that.
    But he didn't elaborate on it (maybe I'll PM him).

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Excellent work. And we know you really don't mean that.
    (I still feel I have to insert that caveat. Heck, I got flak for suggesting Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy, because I didn't make it explicit that it was a joke TO).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
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