[Pathfinder] Dreamscarred Press FAQ

[Zulwarn]

There's Awakened Animus for animus-to-power points, and Body-Bound Mind from Akashic Mysteries for essence-to-power points.

Thank you that's what I was looking for. I've been thinking about making a Rajah with access to Sleeping Goddess or a Zealot with access to Radiant Dawn and was trying to find the best way to get most out of either discipline.

[Kaouse]

So, here are some more Akashic Mysteries questions:

How many veils can you have shaped at one time?
Is it possible to have access to more veils than you can shape?
Do feats that grant you access to veils (for example, Narcissism), also increase the maximum number of veils you can have shaped at a time?
How does this all tie in together with the Aegis and their Akashic customizations?


On a completely alternate topic, it seems one of my players found a typo concerning the Marksman:

Style Mantra
Beginning at 3rd level, as long as a finesse Marksman maintains psionic focus, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made when she makes a ranged attack. At 7th level and every four Marksman levels thereafter, this competence bonus increases by 1.

Is this competence or circumstance? This is kind of important, since the class already gives competence bonuses to attacks in other class features. Does this stack?

[Castilonium]

How many veils can you have shaped at one time?

However many it says you can based on your veilweaving class' table.

Is it possible to have access to more veils than you can shape?

You have access to every veil on your class list, so yes.

Do feats that grant you access to veils (for example, Narcissism), also increase the maximum number of veils you can have shaped at a time?

Nope. They have to specifically say that they increase your number of veils you can have shaped, like a few of the rogue talents do.

How does this all tie in together with the Aegis and their Akashic customizations?

The Aegis' customizations say that you gain the benefits of a veil. That means it doesn't interfere with your shape limit from other classes or feats.

[neversterling]

On a completely alternate topic, it seems one of my players found a typo concerning the Marksman:



Is this competence or circumstance? This is kind of important, since the class already gives competence bonuses to attacks in other class features. Does this stack?

It is a circumstance bonus in Ultimate Psionics.

[torrasque666]

I may just be trying to find something that's not there, but is there any limitation on Aegis customization other than the levels required by the customization and points? Could a Aegis 1 just dump all their points into Diehard?

[phlidwsn]

I may just be trying to find something that's not there, but is there any limitation on Aegis customization other than the levels required by the customization and points? Could a Aegis 1 just dump all their points into Diehard?

Nope, that would be a perfectly legal investment of CP, they would end up with Diehard and whatever freebies come with their chosen astral suit at 1(Speed x2, Nimble for Astral Skin, etc).

[Kaouse]

I know this isn't an official mode of play, but...Gestalt & Akashic Mysteries. If you take two classes with Improved Essence Capacity, it allows you to invest way more essence into a veil/receptacle than normal, correct?

[Elricaltovilla]

I know this isn't an official mode of play, but...Gestalt & Akashic Mysteries. If you take two classes with Improved Essence Capacity, it allows you to invest way more essence into a veil/receptacle than normal, correct?

That is strictly "Ask your GM" territory. Sorry, but with the way that Gestalt ups the power level of characters, it's almost impossible to really say how well that will go. It will depend a LOT on the other characters you're playing with.

[Milo v3]

I know this isn't an official mode of play, but...Gestalt & Akashic Mysteries. If you take two classes with Improved Essence Capacity, it allows you to invest way more essence into a veil/receptacle than normal, correct?

Not if you're using 3.5e style gestalt rules.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[Andor13]

Okay, stupid question. The Harbinger Dark Focus (Supermacy) capstone says "At 20th level, the harbinger treats all maneuvers from her dark focus disciplines as being readied at the beginning of each encounter, in addition to her normal pool of readied maneuvers." (From the SRD.)

Is it supposed to be "treats all maneuvers known from her Dark Focus disciplines"? As written it seems kinda crazy.

[Kaouse]

An Elan takes the "Clever Wordplay" trait, turning Diplomacy from a CHA-using skill into an INT-using one. Do they still take the racial -1 penalty to CHA checks with non-Elans when making a Diplomacy check?

[Swaoeaeieu]

With the arival of starfinder dreamscarred press made an effort to put psionic rules in space. Will there at some point be path of war: in space?

edit: What abaout akshic mysteries?

[upho]

Okay, stupid question. The Harbinger Dark Focus (Supermacy) capstone says "At 20th level, the harbinger treats all maneuvers from her dark focus disciplines as being readied at the beginning of each encounter, in addition to her normal pool of readied maneuvers." (From the SRD.)

Is it supposed to be "treats all maneuvers known from her Dark Focus disciplines"? As written it seems kinda crazy.

Nothing in Dark Focus Supremacy changes the normal rules that you have to know a maneuver in order to ready it. (See my previous reply regarding this and a related question here for more details).

An Elan takes the "Clever Wordplay" trait, turning Diplomacy from a CHA-using skill into an INT-using one. Do they still take the racial -1 penalty to CHA checks with non-Elans when making a Diplomacy check?

No, since Diplomacy is no longer a Cha-based skill for such a PC, but an Int-based skill. Likewise, if such a PC has any bonuses or penalties to Int-based skill checks, those apply to their Diplomacy checks.

[Andor13]

Nothing in Dark Focus Supremacy changes the normal rules that you have to know a maneuver in order to ready it. (See my previous reply regarding this and a related question here for more details).

Actually that post raises an interesting point. Since you cannot leave maneuver slots unfilled, and the capstoned Harbinger cannot count his dark discipline maneuvers against those maneuver slots, a 20th level Harbinger can quite easily find himself in a position where he has no way to be within the rules as he may not have enough maneuvers from other disciplines to be legal. I mean it seems like an ignoreable problem, but it is technically a problem.

[upho]

Actually that post raises an interesting point. Since you cannot leave maneuver slots unfilled, and the capstoned Harbinger cannot count his dark discipline maneuvers against those maneuver slots, a 20th level Harbinger can quite easily find himself in a position where he has no way to be within the rules as he may not have enough maneuvers from other disciplines to be legal. I mean it seems like an ignoreable problem, but it is technically a problem.

Well, not really. Because if taken to such a level of technicality, I believe you'd also have to consider that DFS is a specific rules item, and by default its mechanics working as described therefore having higher priority than those of the general rules in the case a conflict is otherwise unavoidable. Or in other words, technically this simply means DFS is an exception to the general rules in more ways than those perhaps most immediately apparent in its description. And as a specific rule it breaks the general rules it absolutely has to break in order to function as described, immediately apparent or not. (Note that there's technically no requirement for specific rules items to spell out all the possible ways in which their mechanics may be exceptions to the general rules.)

[Andor13]

Well, not really.

Well, like I said, it's an ignoreable problem. A 20th level Harbinger knows 16 maneuvers, and prepares 10 of them. If he has 5 each from of his Dark focus disciplines then they are automatically prepared by DFS without using slots. He then has 6 remaining known maneuvers and 10 slots to put them in. You can't prepare a maneuver more than once, and you can't leave a slot unfilled. Technically during maneuver prep time the Harbinger cannot find himself within a rules legal position and presumably just hovers in the air spinning like a cat with a piece of buttered toast strapped to his back.

However in practice since there is no actual penalty for failing to fulfill the "all slots used" requirement, he just moves on with his life. And, of course, even the more generous interpretation of DFS where you somehow have 2 entire disciplines prepared does nothing to fix that problem by itself, although one assumes you would just retrain all your maneuvers known out of your DFS disciplines.

If it were a computer game it would be a real problem, since it would generate an exception error during a check, and hang the game. Being PnP, we can all just shrug and keep going.

[upho]

Well, like I said, it's an ignoreable problem. A 20th level Harbinger knows 16 maneuvers, and prepares 10 of them. If he has 5 each from of his Dark focus disciplines then they are automatically prepared by DFS without using slots. He then has 6 remaining known maneuvers and 10 slots to put them in. You can't prepare a maneuver more than once, and you can't leave a slot unfilled. Technically during maneuver prep time the Harbinger cannot find himself within a rules legal position and presumably just hovers in the air spinning like a cat with a piece of buttered toast strapped to his back.

Heh, I think I'm gonna steal the hovering spinning-cat-with-toast thing for the games I run. Maybe run it as a condition caused by potential rules contradictions? I'll call it "Syntax Error".

But (slightly) more seriously, the contradiction you're describing cannot technically occur. Again, DFS is an exception to any general rules it absolutely must be an exception to in order function as described. So if DFS would result in a harbinger being unable to prepare maneuvers in all 10 available slots, DFS is an exception to the rule which says those slots must be filled. Simple as that.

However in practice since there is no actual penalty for failing to fulfill the "all slots used" requirement, he just moves on with his life. And, of course, even the more generous interpretation of DFS where you somehow have 2 entire disciplines prepared does nothing to fix that problem by itself, although one assumes you would just retrain all your maneuvers known out of your DFS disciplines.

Oh, there will surely be a punishment from now on in my games! And a pretty nasty one judging by your description...

But again, since DFS doesn't explicitly say it's an exception to the rule that only known maneuvers can be prepared, nor needs to be an exception to that rule in order to provide the described benefit, the "generous interpretation" simply isn't as valid. Or in other words, the "generous interpretation" doesn't work because the other interpretation has DFS breaking fewer general rules.

Of course, it isn't actually spelled out in the RAW that this is how you should interpret things, but it's a kinda Occam's Razor type of extrapolation which has so far very rarely failed to provide me with reasonable working interpretations of rules I've initially found murky.

If it were a computer game it would be a real problem, since it would generate an exception error during a check, and hang the game.

Dunno 'bout that, actually. Seems any decently programmed game would include the default "specific beats general"-priority and "least exception required"-interpretation rules I've described. Which of course wouldn't necessarily be a bullet-proof protection against all contradiction bugs, but surely against a vast majority of specific vs general situations.

Being PnP, we can all just shrug and keep going.

Of course, right after the obligatory rounds of PCs spinning in the air meowing with buttered toast stuck to their backs...

[Andor13]

Heh, I think I'm gonna steal the hovering spinning-cat-with-toast thing for the games I run. Maybe run it as a condition caused by potential rules contradictions? I'll call it "Syntax Error".

I can't claim to have originated that idea, but go nuts anyway. :)

But (slightly) more seriously, the contradiction you're describing cannot technically occur. Again, DFS is an exception to any general rules it absolutely must be an exception to in order function as described. So if DFS would result in a harbinger being unable to prepare maneuvers in all 10 available slots, DFS is an exception to the rule which says those slots must be filled. Simple as that.

But again, since DFS doesn't explicitly say it's an exception to the rule that only known maneuvers can be prepared, nor needs to be an exception to that rule in order to provide the described benefit, the "generous interpretation" simply isn't as valid. Or in other words, the "generous interpretation" doesn't work because the other interpretation has DFS breaking fewer general rules.

Well hang on, this seems very much like trying to have your cake and eat it too. DFS can't give you every maneuver in both disciplines because that would break the general rule, but of course DFS can leave you with empty slots because specific beats general and it's assumed that any thing that is contrary is an exception to the general rule? You've got it both ways in a single thought. "You can only prepare maneuvers you know." is a single general rule. "You must fill all your maneuver slots" is also a single general rule. To declare that DFS cannot violate one but must violate the other is a self-contradictory position. Further, "You can only prepare maneuvers you know." is clearly the weaker rule because DFS doesn't directly address preparation, instead the exact phrasing is "At 20th level, the harbinger treats all maneuvers from her dark focus disciplines as being readied at the beginning of each encounter, in addition to her normal pool of readied maneuvers." So they are treated as readied, but never go through the normal readying process. Come to think of it, that does bypass the empty slot problem as you would ready your maneuvers as normal, because DFS only applies during encounters, it also implies that DFS granted maneuvers are not available out of combat.

Let's face it this is not Occam's Razor, it's trying to interpret RAW vs RAI. RAW the simplest interpretation of DFS is that every single maneuver of two disciplines pops into your head during combat. Why? I dunno, why does a Mystic only have Animus in combat? Is it RAI? I don't know. I do know that if they intended it to be maneuvers known they would only have to put a single word into that sentence to make it clear. If they intended it to be all maneuvers they have already used the standard english phrasing to indicate that. To clarify it they would need some awkward phrase like "each and every single maneuver." The problem arises from the imprecise nature of English.

And to be clear, I do think that RAI is probably as you say, DFS would be a very powerful capstone else (although somewhat mitigated if it has no out of combat application.) RAW is ambiguous. Frankly it matters little, I doubt I'll ever get to play a 20th level Harbinger.

[The Shadowmind]

Does an Aegis need to meet the prerequisites of Access Low Chakra Slot: Con 13, Character level 7, to gain the benefits granted by Chakra Bind, Lesser customization?

As in, can a level 1 Aegis take and gain the benefit of Access Low Chakra Slot, by taking the Chakra bind Lesser customization?

[Andor13]

Does an Aegis need to meet the prerequisites of Access Low Chakra Slot: Con 13, Character level 7, to gain the benefits granted by Chakra Bind, Lesser customization?

As in, can a level 1 Aegis take and gain the benefit of Access Low Chakra Slot, by taking the Chakra bind Lesser customization?

If there was intended to be a level limitation on the ability, it would be listed in the ability, as it is for the Improved and Greater Chakra Bind abilities. As we've been discussing, specific beats general, so it should work just fine, particularly since the ability and the feat are printed in the same book.

[Ssalarn]

Does an Aegis need to meet the prerequisites of Access Low Chakra Slot: Con 13, Character level 7, to gain the benefits granted by Chakra Bind, Lesser customization?

As in, can a level 1 Aegis take and gain the benefit of Access Low Chakra Slot, by taking the Chakra bind Lesser customization?

The customization bypasses the normal prerequisites for the feat. Note that both the Improved and Greater versions of the Chakra Bind customization also have lower prereqs than the associated feats.

[meat_shield]

For the Tempest Gale discipline - can I use maneuvers such as Sudden Gust on creatures larger then I normally could trip (IE if I'm small could I trip a huge creature?)

[upho]

Well hang on, this seems very much like trying to have your cake and eat it too. DFS can't give you every maneuver in both disciplines because that would break the general rule, but of course DFS can leave you with empty slots because specific beats general and it's assumed that any thing that is contrary is an exception to the general rule? You've got it both ways in a single thought. "You can only prepare maneuvers you know." is a single general rule. "You must fill all your maneuver slots" is also a single general rule. To declare that DFS cannot violate one but must violate the other is a self-contradictory position.

Of course I can have my cake and eat it too! I still have it once it's in my belly! Well, at least for a day or so, right?

Cakes aside, it appears I've not explained the "method" used properly. Here's a detailed description of how it's applied to the question of whether DFS allows for preparing and using maneuvers not known, step by step:

1. Possible Interpretations The RAW "the harbinger treats all maneuvers from her dark focus disciplines as being readied" allows for two relevant and mutually exclusive interpretations:
   
   A. DFS grants additional maneuvers readied, but not additional maneuvers known.
   B. DFS grants additional maneuvers readied and known.
2. Required Exceptions A and B requires exceptions are made to the following statements in rules items outside the above RAW:
   
   A. The class-specific rules statement on the number of maneuvers readied.
   B. The class-specific rules statement on the number of maneuvers readied, and the Readying Maneuvers general rules statement "only known maneuvers may be readied".
3. Analysis Even though the RAW being silent on the matter of maneuvers known implies B is correct, it grants more solid support to A. FAQ entries for rules items with similar wordings implying rather than explicitly stating an exception are consistent with this (excluding the few cases when the RAW in question would have contradictory mechanical effects or none at all without the implied exception).
4. Conclusion A relies only on the rules exception explicitly stated by the RAW, while B also relies on an additional exception which is implied but not explicitly stated by the RAW. Therefore A is the correct interpretation: the additional readied maneuvers granted by DFS must be known, as per the Readying Maneuvers general rules.

And here's a similar description of the method applied to the question of whether DFS is contradicted by the Readying Maneuvers general rules (per your original assumption that DFS doesn't bypass this issue):

1. Possible Interpretations The RAW "the harbinger treats all maneuvers from her dark focus disciplines as being readied" has only one possible literal interpretation which results in mechanics incompatible with those of another rules item, and one plausible implicit interpretation which prevents said incompatibility:
   
   A. DFS has no mechanical effect, because the RAW includes no explicit exception to the contradicting general rules.
   B. DFS is an implied exception to the contradicting general rules, because the RAW would otherwise have no mechanical effect and DFS would have no reason to exist in the first place.
2. Required Exceptions A and B requires exceptions are made to the following statements in rules items outside the above RAW:
   
   A. Technically none. (But it can be said to require DFS to be a useless capstone feature with redundant rules texts, and thus a major exception to other DSP content in general and PoW content in particular.)
   B. The Readying Maneuvers general rules statement "You may not choose to leave any of your readied maneuver slots unfilled" (and arguably the normally "implied rule" that exceptions must be explicitly stated).
3. Analysis Even though the RAW neither explicitly states or implies an exception to the general rules in a literal sense, it nevertheless requires one in order to avoid being entirely contradicted by the general rules. Judging by how similar issues have been treated by both Paizo and DSP in the past, it can generally be assumed specific rules statements are exceptions to the general rules which would otherwise entirely contradict the specific statement.
4. Conclusion B is correct: DFS is an exception to the general rule that no readied maneuver slots can be left unfilled.

Note that the different criteria determining the correct interpretation employed by these two applications aren't mutually exclusive. In the first case, the correct interpretation is primarily determined by comparing the minimum exceptions to other rules items required for each interpretation to function. In the second, it's primarily determined by the interpretation which allows for DFS to have any mechanical effect at all. The selection criteria of the former would of course only be used if that of the latter isn't sufficient.

Let's face it this is not Occam's Razor, it's trying to interpret RAW vs RAI. RAW the simplest interpretation of DFS is that every single maneuver of two disciplines pops into your head during combat.

Whoa, hold your horses there! They stole my Occam's Razor and barely looked at it before bolting for "the simplest possible literal interpretation of the ambiguous RAW is correct" conclusion!

When I said "a kinda Occam's Razor type of extrapolation" I was trying to illustrate how I'm assuming the interpretation resulting in functional mechanics requiring the fewest exceptions to other rules items is correct. So think of it as an Occam's Razor based on simplicity in terms of PF mechanics/rules-exceptions, not simplicity in terms of language interpretations.

The problem arises from the imprecise nature of English.

That is indeed often the case. Which is precisely why I believe it's a good idea to replace as much analysis of English language as possible with a more revealing analysis of the far more precise rules mechanics. Even if those are also written in English, most of their actual de-facto mechanical effects have been confirmed.

[Powerdork]

A 7th-level hidden blade levels up, and just so happens to qualify for and choose to be a landsknecht. Because his initiator level increased to 8th, he gets to retrain a maneuver. Can it be a 4th-level maneuver he qualifies for, or must it be limited by the archetype maneuvers table's Level column?
As a 2nd-level landsknecht (having an initiator level of 9th), he can learn a 5th-level maneuver; this is known.
As a higher-level landsknecht, this next part becomes relevant: If he can only learn maneuvers and stances from Mithral Current, Scarlet Throne, and two prior disciplines as part of being a landsknecht, does this apply to the hidden blade retrained maneuvers or not?

[exelsisxax]

A 7th-level hidden blade levels up, and just so happens to qualify for and choose to be a landsknecht. Because his initiator level increased to 8th, he gets to retrain a maneuver. Can it be a 4th-level maneuver he qualifies for, or must it be limited by the archetype maneuvers table's Level column?
As a 2nd-level landsknecht (having an initiator level of 9th), he can learn a 5th-level maneuver; this is known.
As a higher-level landsknecht, this next part becomes relevant: If he can only learn maneuvers and stances from Mithral Current, Scarlet Throne, and two prior disciplines as part of being a landsknecht, does this apply to the hidden blade retrained maneuvers or not?

Sources of maneuvers are separate. Any maneuvers known from hidden blade levels are always hidden blade maneuvers, subject to your disciplines known and max maneuver level for hidden blade. You can't ever turn your hidden blade maneuvers into anything beyond 3rd without taking hidden blade levels.

[Andor13]

Sources of maneuvers are separate. Any maneuvers known from hidden blade levels are always hidden blade maneuvers, subject to your disciplines known and max maneuver level for hidden blade. You can't ever turn your hidden blade maneuvers into anything beyond 3rd without taking hidden blade levels.

Eh? They follow the standard Initiator level upgrade rules, as well as the half-initiator chart. All Initiator prestige classes explicitly add full levels to MI classes as well.

So a 7th level Hidden blade taking a level in Landsknecht is an 8th level Hidden Blade initiator. At 8th level they may to swap out a maneuver know. This would work as a standard Hidden blade swap, so regular disciplines only, and no greater than a 3rd level maneuver.

At 9th level (Hidden Blade 7, LK 2) they get another maneuver known, drawn form the LK list, but still building from the HB chart so Max level 4 maneuvers. No, that's wrong, the half-initiator classes explicitly go off chart when taking IL prestige classes. So they would be a standard 9th level initiator with level 5 maneuvers available. ... I am now unclear as to whether or not this rule shift applies to maneuvers swapped out due to IL advancement.

At 10th level (HB 7, LK3) they add a maneuver readied, and can upgrade again as a 10th level initiator, with a max maneuver level of 4.

Even if he was taking levels in Wizard his IL levels would advance at 1/2 rate and at HB 7/Wiz 2 they get a 3rd level swap and at HB 7/Wiz 6 they get another swap with level 4 maneuvers available.

[upho]

I am now unclear as to whether or not this rule shift applies to maneuvers swapped out due to IL advancement.

If the IL advancement was caused by gaining a level of an initiator prestige class, it's not bound by the normal archetype class level cap, but by IL like full initiators. If the IL advancement was gained by taking levels in any other class, it's still bound by that archetype class level cap (and therefore the swap doesn't grant access to higher level maneuvers unless the level gained was in the actual archetype whose powers are swapped).

Even if he was taking levels in Wizard his IL levels would advance at 1/2 rate and at HB 7/Wiz 2 they get a 3rd level swap and at HB 7/Wiz 6 they get another swap with level 4 maneuvers available.

No. A HB 7/Wiz 6 would gain a swap due to increased IL, but is still bound to max level 3 maneuvers.

Again, the max maneuver level of archetype initiators are regulated by CLASS levels, not IL (again, with the exception of taking levels in initiator PrC's).

[Andor13]

If the IL advancement was caused by gaining a level of an initiator prestige class, it's not bound by the normal archetype class level cap, but by IL like full initiators. If the IL advancement was gained by taking levels in any other class, it's still bound by that archetype class level cap (and therefore the swap doesn't grant access to higher level maneuvers unless the level gained was in the actual archetype whose powers are swapped).

No. A HB 7/Wiz 6 would gain a swap due to increased IL, but is still bound to max level 3 maneuvers.

Again, the max maneuver level of archetype initiators are regulated by CLASS levels, not IL (again, with the exception of taking levels in initiator PrC's).

Ah. I get it, although that's a slightly arcane way to look at the charts. Huh. That is a strong incentive for the Initiator Archetypes to look at Prestige Classes.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ah. I get it, although that's a slightly arcane way to look at the charts. Huh. That is a strong incentive for the Initiator Archetypes to look at Prestige Classes.

Yes, that was intentional.

[exelsisxax]

I think you are making it too complicated. Initiator level doesn't matter to a hidden blade when picking maneuvers because the archetype chart is more restrictive. The only thing that matters for those 7 HB maneuvers is what your HB class level is. Because taking class levels is the only way to increase your class level in this case, you are restricted to 3rd level HB maneuvers, period. It doesn't matter if you take prestige classes or martial study, those HB maneuvers are always under that restriction and can never be boosted.