Werewolf Classic XIX: Return to Transylvania

[Duck999]

It's okay, playing werewolf to be put in signatures is a 100% valid strategy.

Not that I've ever done that, no...

This... was quite a while ago.

Oh no, Duck999 is a mason.

How can I possibly suspect you of being a wolf now? :(

:P

Even longer ago than I thought. Took a bit to find again on QT.

[Rain Dragon]

So it seems Luizeu no longer wishes to string up the adorable pikachu and while TFT has a point, I don't think it is too different to how I have seen Luizeu play before either so I'm only a little suspicious.

The two leading candidates seem to be Saposhiente and Eldritch Knight. Neither seem more or less suspicious to me than the other, so I will vote to even them up a little.

Rain Dragon points at Saposhiente

[Internet Flea]

...alright, in light of the discussion over on Central and the Pub, I guess I'll give my reasoning for my Sapo vote today.

My first reaction to Sapo's point at Murska was "Welp, Sapo's the Devil. She's probably trying to deflect the lynch from B-Man."

Then Sapo posts a list of suspects, but only people who have votes on them already. Since when does Sapo care about following someone else's bandwagon? Unless she's trying to create a fast wagon to deflect from B-Man.

Then she posts her tally with Murska and Eldritch Knight both in the lead, both of whom Sapo voted for, and I just don't trust that. It feels like the wolves are deflecting from B-Man.

So I say we lynch Saposhiente or B-Man, and Sapo's more likely to be the Devil.

Also for meta-game reasons (I really hate the 'Player x is a good lynch target because even when they're town they're bad for town' argument, and it seems like I'm seeing it in every game now).

[Saposhiente]

I'm fine with lynching B-man but a lot of people seemed opposed to him because of it being his first game in a while.

[Fleeing Coward]

I'm opposed to lynching B-Man since lynching players that havn't played in a long time or new players day 1 without a real good reason is something I just refuse to do.

I am however willing to switch to EK if it'd end the day faster since I will admit that the reason I'm voting for Sapo today is because of last game.

[Internet Flea]

I'm fine with lynching B-man but a lot of people seemed opposed to him because of it being his first game in a while.

I'm opposed to lynching B-Man since lynching players that havn't played in a long time or new players day 1 without a real good reason is something I just refuse to do.

I am however willing to switch to EK if it'd end the day faster since I will admit that the reason I'm voting for Sapo today is because of last game.

Has he really not played in a while? I thought he was in one of the last six or so.

...or maybe I just haven't played in a while.

[Logic]

Has he really not played in a while? I thought he was in one of the last six or so.

...or maybe I just haven't played in a while.

B-Man hosted a game about 9 months ago, and as far as I know, hasn't played in the intervening time.

[bladescape]

Also for meta-game reasons (I really hate the 'Player x is a good lynch target because even when they're town they're bad for town' argument, and it seems like I'm seeing it in every game now).

If I was going to vote for either Sapo or EK, I'd vote EK because his responses haven't been great.

But IF has illustrated exactly why I refuse to partake in this debacle. This is basically a rule that says 'x person can't have fun because they are not so good'. I'll be honest, I used to do that. Firedaemon was probably the most notably consistent target of me doing this. But after facing a bunch of N1/D1 kills on another board I realised it just sucks to consistently be targeted for any reason.

So yes. I refuse to join a lynch that is basically 'this person isn't 100% optimal for town.' Because I'm not here to 100% optimise this game. Especially if it means systematically taking fun away from people who play a. unconventionally or b. aren't that great.

A bit of a rant, but I feel kind've strongly on this subject.

[B-Man]

Has he really not played in a while? I thought he was in one of the last six or so.

B-Man hosted a game about 9 months ago, and as far as I know, hasn't played in the intervening time.

If I'm recalling correctly, the last time I played Werewolf/Werewolf Classic was just before 2009. I had tried to play Andre's game before hosting Classic XVIII but that ended abruptly.

As I stated before, I never really meant to make the emotional appeal. It kinda just read that way.
Real life happened; it's an interesting story that's in no way related to this game at all.

I don't really have much to say on the current situation RE: the two current wagons and I really don't like the reasons being thrown around as they're based off of previous games (this is starting to look like how Werewolf Classic II take II started off and was the reason I left the game). Each game should have its own reasons for lynching rather than bringing baggage from previous games.

[Saposhiente]

This is basically a rule that says 'x person can't have fun because they are not so good'.

Ah, this is a misunderstanding. I'm not voting for EK because I think' he's bad--quite the opposite! I'm voting for EK because I think he's good at this game, because I think that he can do better, because I think not that he can't help town, but that he refuses to help town.

More on this later--I have to go.

[bladescape]

a. unconventionally or b. aren't that great.

Sapo, EK comes under A.

I'm going to be honest, I agree that his lack of contribution can be annoying early. Later on he can be more useful, but early he is rather frustrating.

However, again, I refuse to adhere to systematic oppression of a player.

[Eldritch Knight]

Ah, this is a misunderstanding. I'm not voting for EK because I think' he's bad--quite the opposite! I'm voting for EK because I think he's good at this game, because I think that he can do better, because I think not that he can't help town, but that he refuses to help town.

More on this later--I have to go.

REFUSES to help?

Ha. I am not the one trying to lynch someone for a differing strategy. This is the first day, There is no pattern to analyze. This comes across as more of a grudge than as a strategy. The last game where you tried this strategy the wolves WON, as I recall. I'd rather see the village win this time, and allowing a significant amount of collateral damage is not going to do that.

[Xihirli]

Collateral Damage!?

I am the Collateral Damage!

_{That sounded less stupid in my head.}

[Saposhiente]

I'd rather see the village win this time, and allowing a significant amount of collateral damage is not going to do that.

Okay, so you're back to arguing that your strategy is better for the purpose of winning the game.

It isn't.

I believe that I have presented plenty of evidence to this point (with more available upon request), and so far you have only presented emotional arguments and false analogies. Please, logically argue the merits of not lynching anyone. I would love to hear it.

[Internet Flea]

Okay, folks, 27 players means we need 14 votes to get a lynch today.

As far as I can tell, the Day won't actually end until we get 14 votes on somebody (or maybe 14 on No Lynch?), so we still have time to move these bandwagons somewhere else if we want. But if anybody is just waiting for the Day to end... well, you'll have to help make that happen.

[DungeonMaster77]

Thank you, Internet Flea. You are correct. I will check back tomorrow...If there has been no movement, I will lynch they with the greatest votes to get things moving.

As much as I want to do this the old-fashioned way, I may have to implement Helgraf's rule...hopefully, we can get some movement.

[Eldritch Knight]

Okay, so you're back to arguing that your strategy is better for the purpose of winning the game.

It isn't.

I believe that I have presented plenty of evidence to this point (with more available upon request), and so far you have only presented emotional arguments and false analogies. Please, logically argue the merits of not lynching anyone. I would love to hear it.

I'm not arguing for not lynching anyone - I'm arguing for lynching *YOU*. Put it this way, you would have us burn down the village, metaphorically speaking, in the pursuit of saving it. While that would be effective in dealing with a plague, it is not effective in dealing with an infiltration. If we followed your way, there would be no town by the end of the game. In fact, it has been demonstrably proven in the last game that your strategy lead to the wolves winning. What guarantees do you have that it would actually work this time? You called me selfish earlier, when in fact, I have been far more of a team player than you have. Did you or did you not deliberately try to get me killed in the last game by literally throwing me to the wolves? I can provide an exact quote in this regard.

I really don't think that Castaras is the right lynch right now. I've been trying to get Eldritch Knight nightkilled for a very long time now, and their continued survival disturbs me greatly.

This is supposed to be a team game - there is no individual winner. Sure, even if there is a 2:1 ratio by the end of the last day, the village wins - but as soon as the ratios get even close to that low, the wolves gain a greater advantage. I'm pretty sure you know this - but why would we even risk letting it GET to that point if we can identify the wolves earlier? Numerically speaking, villagers outnumber the wolves for most of the game - the only way the wolves can win is in stirring up mistargeted lynches, and in regularly killing off the players who are the biggest threats. That's why I'm not active until the later game, because the more data I accumulate, the better chance I have in identifying the likely wolves in our midst. The simple fact is this: The strategy I advocate, namely information gathering for precise lynches has been the same strategy used in this game since it was introduced to these boards. More often than not, it is effective.

On the other hand, I could just stand aside and watch you lead the village once again down a path of destruction. If the wolves were smart, they'd let you do just that. But I don't want to do that. See, I'm not voting to lynch you because I think your strategy is inferior to my own. Far from it, I'm voting to lynch you because I believe you are a wolf!

Also, I would encourage you to reconsider your phrasing as it is coming across as condescending and quite frankly, insulting.

[Citizen Nij]

Well, spend a weekend focusing on your exam and you miss all the fun!
I apologise for barely contributing as I attempted last game, real life does this. Since we are apparently on 51% required for lynch mode, I'm placing vote on the one closest to getting there, so Citizen Nij points at Eldritch Knight.*

* due to technical difficulty, I cannot currently use colours in text, so I can't write votes in red. Will try to fix shortly.

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna points at Saposhiente. I would see this game advance past day one, and I don't particularly like the Eldritch Knight wagon.

[TFT]

So, as far as I know I can tell for the votes, if TFT points at Eldritch Knight that makes for an even 7 - 7 split. I figure that this at least might give us some information if sapo or EK end up being a wolf, and I'm not really convinced either of them are a wolf or that lynching one over the other would be more beneficial. (Also, I'm not touching that argument with 100 ft pole past previous sentence)

[Saposhiente]

I considered refuting EK but it doesn't look like anyone is interested in reading that. Suffice to say I don't see any logical basis for his arguments, and now that he's saying he is interested in lynching I'm not even sure what exactly he's trying to argue for in the first place. If you have any questions please ask; I'll go to bed for now.

[Sprig]

Sprig bangs his fork up and down on the table! 'Time to get a lynching chant going' he thinks to himself.

E-LEN-NA!
E-LEN-NA!
E-LEN-NA!
E-LEN-NA!
E-LEN-NA!

[Eldritch Knight]

If I'm recalling correctly, the last time I played Werewolf/Werewolf Classic was just before 2009. I had tried to play Andre's game before hosting Classic XVIII but that ended abruptly.

As I stated before, I never really meant to make the emotional appeal. It kinda just read that way.
Real life happened; it's an interesting story that's in no way related to this game at all.

I don't really have much to say on the current situation RE: the two current wagons and I really don't like the reasons being thrown around as they're based off of previous games (this is starting to look like how Werewolf Classic II take II started off and was the reason I left the game). Each game should have its own reasons for lynching rather than bringing baggage from previous games.

And unfortunately, those circumstances were more ugly than they should've been. I was younger and more stupid then, as were most of us who were involved. Hopefully we're older and wiser now..

On that note, I found an interesting statistic looking over previous games: As far as I know, the seer has never been lynched day one. It would certainly make for an interesting game if that were to happen. (I am not claiming to be the seer, this was just an interesting fact that stuck out to me.)

- - - Updated - - -

I considered refuting EK but it doesn't look like anyone is interested in reading that. Suffice to say I don't see any logical basis for his arguments, and now that he's saying he is interested in lynching I'm not even sure what exactly he's trying to argue for in the first place. If you have any questions please ask; I'll go to bed for now.

How's this: Provide an EXACT quote where I called for a no lynch - IN THIS GAME. I know I called for one in the last game - but that was a different game entirely.

[Logic]

I considered refuting EK but it doesn't look like anyone is interested in reading that. Suffice to say I don't see any logical basis for his arguments, and now that he's saying he is interested in lynching I'm not even sure what exactly he's trying to argue for in the first place. If you have any questions please ask; I'll go to bed for now.

How's this: Provide an EXACT quote where I called for a no lynch - IN THIS GAME. I know I called for one in the last game - but that was a different game entirely.

OK, You've convinced me EK. Logic points at Saposhiente.

[Saposhiente]

How's this: Provide an EXACT quote where I called for a no lynch - IN THIS GAME. I know I called for one in the last game - but that was a different game entirely.

To quote the Doctor, "Just this once, Rose, EVERYBODY LIVES." That is the ideal game scenario for me - taking out the wolves with a significant number of villagers remaining.

This and several other quotes about "collateral damage" and the like imply that you want to minimize deaths, and since we can't control the nightkill that implies not lynching. If you don't want to no-lynch, then all your talk about minimizing deaths has been meaningless jabber because you're not doing anything to that end.

Check out this:

Ha. I am not the one trying to lynch someone for a differing strategy.

He immediately contradicts himself:

I'm not arguing for not lynching anyone - I'm arguing for lynching *YOU*. Put it this way, you would have us burn down the village, metaphorically speaking, in the pursuit of saving it.

EK isn't trying to tell the truth or guide Town; he's saying anything, everything to try to avoid the lynch. That's wolf behavior.

[Xihirli]

No, I think that if people were threatening to lynch me, I would be reduced to a gibbering mess, too, saying anything I needed to to get them to go lynch someone else.

Your logic is "EK doesn't want to die, that means he wants us dead." That is "saying anything [you need] to to avoid the lynch."

Xihirli points at Saposhiente.

[DungeonMaster77]

VOICE OF THE NARRATOR

Spoiler

Show

I tried to give things another extra RL day, to see if we could get a majority, and it appears that, despite everything, it just isn't going to happen. So, I am ending the day today. Time to move on.

The day has been long. Too long, in fact. Despite the cold of the winter, the heated discussions have done more to heat up the town than any wood-burning stove or fireplace could ever do. The mob has spoken, though, and despite the heated words and pointed accusations, it appears that Saposhiente is the one that the mob will take out their fear and anger on.

Standing in front of the tree, noose about the neck, Sap looks out over the angry faces of the crowd, and speaks:

"I have been with you all long, and have tried my best to save you, even from yourselves, but you would not listen. Hear my words: If you do not all band together, the wolves will win!"

Somebody kicks the stand from underneath Sap, who drops suddenly, with a sickening crack. Something falls from Sap's pocket, however, and it looks like this:

Spoiler

Show

It appears that Sap was not a wolf, but a Mason...you have all chosen...poorly.

Your blood runs cold as you see the sun set behind the mountains, and night comes...

NIGHT PHASE, folks! Get me your PM's. I should get a total of 4 PM's: The Alpha wolf, the Devil, and my 2 Seers.

[Saposhiente]

Deadlined while I was typing my roleclaim. So it goes.

[Eldritch Knight]

Deadlined while I was typing my roleclaim. So it goes.

Could've been worse, Sapo - close lynches like that are not as bad as a near unanimous vote. I've been on the receiving end of one of those, and it really stings. Hopefully in the next game you get to last a little longer.

[Xihirli]

So now we wait for the wolves to kill us. I feel so helpless...
Wait!
I can cover myself in barbecue sauce!