Secret of Mana

[danzibr]

I've been playing games since about 1990. Played lots of games, mostly RPG's. The other day I was looking at top 10 lists for RPG's by system. I've played a strong majority of them, but somehow missed Secret of Mana.

So I started SoM for the first time a couple days ago. To be honest, I didn't like it much at first. 1 dude, combat was long and a little awkward. But now, a couple hours in (just got Undine's magic), I can say I'm really enjoying it. Not using any guides so I'm probably missing stuff, but that's fine. I really like the seamlessly switching between characters and weapons, even if the AI isn't great.

Maybe I should've done a LP with SS's. Might'be been funny for the pros to see.

[DigoDragon]

Secret of Mana is pretty buggy, but it really is fun if you got a friend or two and team up. Even alone, it's got nice elements to make it worthwhile playing through once.

[danzibr]

Holy smokes! You can 2-player it?

That seems like it might make the game a bit easy.

[huttj509]

Holy smokes! You can 2-player it?

That seems like it might make the game a bit easy.

You can 3-player it, if you have a SNES 4-score adapter.

One player controls each character.

[Brother Oni]

You can 3-player it, if you have a SNES 4-score adapter.

One player controls each character.

The player controlling the sprite can make it annoying since the game pauses every time he casts a spell.

[Gnoman]

Just make sure that you level every school of magic up as much as possible (simply spamming it will do) every time you get a new elemental or Mana Seed (the number of seeds you've sealed determines max spell level). The game becomes nearly impossible to beat at the end if you don't have a certain spell at high (or max) level.

[Maelfyn]

Secret of Mana was amazing. It had excellent music. Plus you have to remember that a multiplayer RPG was practically unheard of in the 16-bit era.

[Starwulf]

As a little hint(I have no idea how well known it is nowadays, back when I played it there weren't big sites like gamefaqs and stuff), in the final dungeon you can farm the enemies in there and get them to drop weapon orbs which allows you to take your weapons to their final transformation, the 9th stage(normally you can only get 8th level weapons, but I played this game so much that one time I was going through the final dungeon and a random mob dropped me a whip orb. I then set out to see if they would drop the others, and lo and behold, over the course of nearly 100 hours, I got all weapons to 9th level).

[danzibr]

Just make sure that you level every school of magic up as much as possible (simply spamming it will do) every time you get a new elemental or Mana Seed (the number of seeds you've sealed determines max spell level). The game becomes nearly impossible to beat at the end if you don't have a certain spell at high (or max) level.

Ahh shucks. Thanks for the hint. Does weapon level function the same way? I've been enjoying using multiple weapons. The guy is my melee character, sprite thing my medium range, chick my long range.

As a little hint(I have no idea how well known it is nowadays, back when I played it there weren't big sites like gamefaqs and stuff), in the final dungeon you can farm the enemies in there and get them to drop weapon orbs which allows you to take your weapons to their final transformation, the 9th stage(normally you can only get 8th level weapons, but I played this game so much that one time I was going through the final dungeon and a random mob dropped me a whip orb. I then set out to see if they would drop the others, and lo and behold, over the course of nearly 100 hours, I got all weapons to 9th level).

Good to know! Also gives me a very vague hint of how long the game is.

But damn, 100 hours? I don't think I'll commit to that...

[Eldariel]

After you're done with that, I greatly recommend "Seiken Densetsu 3" (the Japanese "sequel" of the same series); it's an unsung jewel of the SNES era that never got a western release.

I'd say SD3 takes everything good about Secret of Mana and makes it better: interesting gameplay, superb characterization, engaging storylines and even multiplayer. It even contains three essentially different stories depending on your choice of protagonist.

[DigoDragon]

That seems like it might make the game a bit easy.

Yes and no. One problem with having friends along is that sometimes you disagree where to go, or in a fight everyone runs in different directions, so ultimately someone might get stuck on an enemy and take a bunch of hits at once.

But damn, 100 hours? I don't think I'll commit to that...

Yeah, it can take a loooong time. I only ever got the Spear, Whip, and Boomerang up to level 9.

[danzibr]

After you're done with that, I greatly recommend "Seiken Densetsu 3" (the Japanese "sequel" of the same series); it's an unsung jewel of the SNES era that never got a western release.

I'd say SD3 takes everything good about Secret of Mana and makes it better: interesting gameplay, superb characterization, engaging storylines and even multiplayer. It even contains three essentially different stories depending on your choice of protagonist.

Maybe I'll do a blind lp of the ss variety when I finish this. Gauge interest first.

[Reinboom]

After you're done with that, I greatly recommend "Seiken Densetsu 3" (the Japanese "sequel" of the same series); it's an unsung jewel of the SNES era that never got a western release.

I'd say SD3 takes everything good about Secret of Mana and makes it better: interesting gameplay, superb characterization, engaging storylines and even multiplayer. It even contains three essentially different stories depending on your choice of protagonist.

Except SD3 doesn't support three player normally. :/

[Starwulf]

Ahh shucks. Thanks for the hint. Does weapon level function the same way? I've been enjoying using multiple weapons. The guy is my melee character, sprite thing my medium range, chick my long range.

Good to know! Also gives me a very vague hint of how long the game is.

But damn, 100 hours? I don't think I'll commit to that...

Thankfully the 9th level weapons are in no way necessary, it was just totally for fun, Secret of Mana is my all-time favorite game so when I discovered the mobs in the final fortress dropped weapon orbs I was ecstatic that I could see the 9th level of weapons.

[danzibr]

Just got Gnome. Man, that fire dude was tough. First time he kept handing my butt to me. I walked in not at full MP with the sprite dude (?), and his magic was level 0. Went back, got his magic up and came back with full MP, then the boss went from being mega tough to a push over. Ahh, what a good strategy can do.

[Gnoman]

Ahh shucks. Thanks for the hint. Does weapon level function the same way? I've been enjoying using multiple weapons. The guy is my melee character, sprite thing my medium range, chick my long range.

Weapon level is much less important - AFAIK the main thing it determines is how powerful a charge attack can be. However, levelling up your weapons encourages swapping - your weapon level is determined by how many times you've upgraded it, so weapons stop improving after a bit, allowing you to simply swap every time you level up.

I find it useful to use either the girl or the sprite as the directly controlled character, because it puts exactly one magic menu on each of the two buttons (IIRC, X brings up the controlled character's menu, and Y brings up the ally's, could have those backwards), allowing less backtracking when casting spells.

[danzibr]

Weapon level is much less important - AFAIK the main thing it determines is how powerful a charge attack can be. However, levelling up your weapons encourages swapping - your weapon level is determined by how many times you've upgraded it, so weapons stop improving after a bit, allowing you to simply swap every time you level up.

I find it useful to use either the girl or the sprite as the directly controlled character, because it puts exactly one magic menu on each of the two buttons (IIRC, X brings up the controlled character's menu, and Y brings up the ally's, could have those backwards), allowing less backtracking when casting spells.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragraph. You upgrade them with orbs, but your skill also increases. So you're saying... your skill cap is determined by how many times you upgrade them?

Strangely, I've never pressed the X button while having an ally that could use magic.

EDIT: Ahh I see. The higher your skill level the longer you can charge. I didn't even realize you could charge attacks :/

Also, same thing happened with a boss. Got my butt whipped, trained magic, came back and dominated. Man magic is strong in this game.

[Gnoman]

I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragraph. You upgrade them with orbs, but your skill also increases. So you're saying... your skill cap is determined by how many times you upgrade them?

Yes, that's what I mean. You can train your weapon skill up to level 1 when you first get it, and an additional skill level unlocks with each upgrade.

[Eldariel]

Except SD3 doesn't support three player normally. :/

Oh? That's a pity, I always thought it was but only ever played with two...

[Pendulous]

Yes and no. One problem with having friends along is that sometimes you disagree where to go, or in a fight everyone runs in different directions, so ultimately someone might get stuck on an enemy and take a bunch of hits at once.

Also, doesn't the game only register one attack at once, if two characters hit the same target simultaneously?

[danzibr]

Also, doesn't the game only register one attack at once, if two characters hit the same target simultaneously?

Ya know, I've been wondering about this. At times it seems the attack connects and there's merely a delay, at times it seems the second attack is a total whiff.

Also, I'm well into the desert now.

[DigoDragon]

Also, doesn't the game only register one attack at once, if two characters hit the same target simultaneously?

Usually, because when you hit someone, they have a moment of invincibility when they're knocked back. Plus you have to wait a couple seconds for your character to "ready" themselves to strike at full power again. However, there's a trick that if you alternate attacks between two players on a stunned enemy, you can essentially stun-lock them until they die.

[danzibr]

Update!

I haven't been able to play as much. To be perfectly honest, at the beginning I didn't like it very much. Intro was weak. All the back and forth was very dull. Story wasn't great.

Then it got much better! In particular, I just got Flammie. That didn't make the plot much better, but the back and forth is way faster. Considering it's rated as one of the top RPG's ever, I assume it's going to get better. I mean, it's alright, just not fantastic (yet) imo.

[Psyren]

To be perfectly honest (and I say this as a massive Seiken Densetsu fan), whenever you see a list that says "best RPGs of all time" you should be taking that with a grain of salt. Usually it means something like "given the technical limitations of the time period it was released in" or "of my childhood when everything was awesome." But the simple fact is that game design (and narrative design) has come a long way since those days, so you're going to run into a lot of irritants playing an older RPG today and wondering what all the hype is about.

If you can set that aside and try to view the experience through the lens to the past - being amazed at once-groundbreaking things we take for granted now like real-time combat, AI-controlled party members, weapon behaviors and even multiplayer, and being able to forgive a threadbare setting and plot as a result, like we did - you might be able to understand what made SM and SD3 the nostalgic powerhouses they are today. If however you approach these conventions as though they come standard, you'll likely walk away disappointed.

[danzibr]

Those are great points. However... when I think of other SNES games, like Chrono Trigger and FFVI, they're just so much more fun despite being the same generation.

Might be the nostalgia lenses messing with me (though I didn't play either of the aforementioned games until I was a bit older), but even then playing NES games for the first time have provided more fun.

Long story short, I can see how it's exemplary from a mechanical PoV, but so far I haven't had that much fun with it. Decent bit of fun mind you, but not as much as with others. I'm not one to give up on a game though.

[Psyren]

Those are great points. However... when I think of other SNES games, like Chrono Trigger and FFVI, they're just so much more fun despite being the same generation.

Of course they are - those games had actual plots, interesting settings and deep characters. SM... doesn't. See what I mean?

"Blargh, generic evil empire want magic tree. You, destined hero, go get sword and make with the stabby."

The most interesting characters in the SM games are the mana spirits, and they barely get any screentime.

[Pendulous]

To be perfectly honest (and I say this as a massive Seiken Densetsu fan), whenever you see a list that says "best RPGs of all time" you should be taking that with a grain of salt. Usually it means something like "given the technical limitations of the time period it was released in" or "of my childhood when everything was awesome." But the simple fact is that game design (and narrative design) has come a long way since those days, so you're going to run into a lot of irritants playing an older RPG today and wondering what all the hype is about.

If you can set that aside and try to view the experience through the lens to the past - being amazed at once-groundbreaking things we take for granted now like real-time combat, AI-controlled party members, weapon behaviors and even multiplayer, and being able to forgive a threadbare setting and plot as a result, like we did - you might be able to understand what made SM and SD3 the nostalgic powerhouses they are today. If however you approach these conventions as though they come standard, you'll likely walk away disappointed.

I actually did a review of Breath of Fire somewhat recently, a game that I loved. When I broke it down, I found it to be a rather bad game. That's also what happened to the Game Grumps. Jon raved about Conker, so they recorded a few episodes, and it was so depressing him finding out he DIDN'T like it, they never aired them.

[danzibr]

I actually did a review of Breath of Fire somewhat recently, a game that I loved. When I broke it down, I found it to be a rather bad game. That's also what happened to the Game Grumps. Jon raved about Conker, so they recorded a few episodes, and it was so depressing him finding out he DIDN'T like it, they never aired them.

Out of curiosity, which BoF?

I adored 3, then went back and tried to play 2 but didn't get into it.

[RoyVG]

Secret of Mana, while also a great game in its own right, really has a flawed combat system, mostly because of the waiting time between attacks and the ability to stunlock in multiplayer. This is likely caused by system limitations but then again, Seiken Densetsu 3 could do it so much better. The story also doesn't really feel interesting enough to continue playing, having quit the game multiple times before even getting the second Mana spirit. Still it's a fairly good game

Speaking about nostalgia one of my favorite games of the SNES is Lufia 2, but when not looking through childhood nostalgia glasses, I can see it follows the all the standard tropes almost like its trying to be the definition of these tropes. It has its moments and mechanics like the Capsule Monsters and story elements like two of the main character get married and even have a kid after a 1 year time skip or the part after the final boss is defeated. It even has a Rogue-like random-dungeon-generator before it hit mainstream popularity which was genuinely difficult to complete. Still the game was so generic that it fell under the radar to games that pushed the system like Final Fantasy III and Chrono Trigger. I only knew about the game because I knew it was the one of the first Nintendo games to be translated to Dutch, allowing me to understand the story at the time, and most of Squaresofts games never released many of their games in Europe, with Secret of Mana and Mystic Quest (Literally the first 'Final Fantasy' to come to Europe, nice first impression) being among the few exceptions.

[Psyren]

I actually did a review of Breath of Fire somewhat recently, a game that I loved. When I broke it down, I found it to be a rather bad game. That's also what happened to the Game Grumps. Jon raved about Conker, so they recorded a few episodes, and it was so depressing him finding out he DIDN'T like it, they never aired them.

Now this I find weird. Conker (the N64 version anyway) holds up extremely well if you like 3D platformers at all, and the 4th-wall-breaking toilet humor (literally in some levels) is just as funny today as it was on release.

The only real downer is the ending, but it sounds like he didn't even make it that far.

Secret of Mana, while also a great game in its own right, really has a flawed combat system, mostly because of the waiting time between attacks and the ability to stunlock in multiplayer. This is likely caused by system limitations but then again, Seiken Densetsu 3 could do it so much better. The story also doesn't really feel interesting enough to continue playing, having quit the game multiple times before even getting the second Mana spirit. Still it's a fairly good game

SD3 combat is indeed better, but it's terribly flawed too. Spellcasting follows a queue system, and the monsters are on the same queue, so if you aren't very proactive about healing (i.e. queueing up heals before you think you'll need them) then the mid-to-late-game monsters can get off several hard-hitting AoE attacks in quick succession and utterly wreck your team before you get a chance to do anything. The game also punishes you for using spells and high-level techs (which work like magic, i.e. pausing the action) by having many monsters and almost all the bosses counter-attack painfully whenever you use them. This plus the way sabre magic works (i.e. buffing normal hits and level 1 techs, but not level 2 and 3 techs) counterintuitively makes your level 1 techs the fastest and most damaging attacks in the game. and also the safest ones to use because they don't provoke counters. This is exacerbated by the game's damage cap - the most damage any attack can do is 999 (which is also the most HP you can have) and so once you're high enough you can paradoxically just forget about your most powerful attacks in favor of the more cost-and time-efficient lower-level ones. This is particularly true for the highest-level magic, which looks cool, but can take a very long time to go off, while the lower-level spells deal comparable damage and are over and done with quickly. (For example, Ancient takes forever to cast and costs of your 99 MP maximum - even if it does 999 to everything on the screen, in a boss fight you could just cast Holy Ball for example for 2 MP and 500+ damage, it casts almost instantly and the animation is much shorter, allowing you to get three of them off by the time you can cast a single Ancient for half the MP and much more damage.

In addition, nearly all the status spells are useless, as is the case in far too many JRPGs of that era (e.g. if an enemy is weak enough to be affected you can just kill them normally anyway, and if they're strong enough they are immune to many.). Multiple spells are bugged and don't work at all, e.g. Speed Up or Energy Ball. Some debuffs actively hurt you to use, like mini and Freya, which make enemies harmless but cause them to give 0 XP.

The damage cap and the spell-like nature of the high-level techs means that having a single-target tech is strictly inferior to a multitarget one. A ST tech will never do more than 999 to one enemy, while a MT tech can potentially do 999 to everything on the screen.