New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 247
  1. - Top - End - #211
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    Agreed. I was just pointing out that it was not something the Fighter did to himself (practicing on a dummy would not have caused it). The opponent's action was required as well. It was a bad punch coupled with an improbably well placed block.
    You could fumble while striking a dummy at an angle and have a similar result though. People injure themselves while practicing alone all the time.

    But again, I prefer fumbles that could not result in damage from a dummy as that is what leads to the silly scenario of the roomful of dead warriors.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SowZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You could fumble while striking a dummy at an angle and have a similar result though. People injure themselves while practicing alone all the time.

    But again, I prefer fumbles that could not result in damage from a dummy as that is what leads to the silly scenario of the roomful of dead warriors.
    You could punch a dummy in such a way that hurts your wrist or knuckles or elbow. You couldn't really punch yourself in the face, because it couldn't push back.
    Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
    Avatar by Kymme

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    You could punch a dummy in such a way that hurts your wrist or knuckles or elbow. You couldn't really punch yourself in the face, because it couldn't push back.
    See, whenever I read something like "this occurrence has never happened anywhere in thousands of years of history, even once" - unless it's talking about somebody swallowing the sun or something similarly outlandish, I just instantly tune out. I find it just too implausible.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SowZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    See, whenever I read something like "this occurrence has never happened anywhere in thousands of years of history, even once" - unless it's talking about somebody swallowing the sun or something similarly outlandish, I just instantly tune out. I find it just too implausible.
    Look, you're the one being absolutist, not me. You are intentionally warping my words in a dishonest manner and I don't know why you feel the need to do that. You made up this phrase I never implied at is very rude. When people say, "That doesn't happen," they don't mean it could never happen in the history of the universe. That is not how human beings talk. This is not how language works. If I heard that someone fell off a seventeen story building with no parachute and nothing slowed his fall and he landed on concrete and I said, "Well, I'm sure he's dead." that doesn't mean there is a zero percent chance of his survival. It has happened a couple of times. But it is fine to say, "Falling seventeen stories onto concrete will kill you," it is not untrue.
    Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
    Avatar by Kymme

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Look, you're the one being absolutist, not me. You are intentionally warping my words in a dishonest manner and I don't know why you feel the need to do that.
    I think you both would say that about each other and deny it about yourselves.

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SowZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I think you both would say that about each other and deny it about yourselves.
    Throughout the course of this discussion, I've admitted several times that it could happen and probably does happen from time to time, but that it is so rare that it doesn't practically happen. I have said that as plainly as possible multiple times. So it is rude to then say that my claim is, "These things can never happen and will never happen in all of human history." Also, making such absurd statements while pretending to quote someone is clearly an insult. It is an obvious example of mocking someone to their face. This discussion has never yet reached that level of rudeness and I don't see why it has to.
    Last edited by SowZ; 2015-06-24 at 01:11 PM.
    Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
    Avatar by Kymme

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Throughout the course of this discussion, I've admitted several times that it could happen and probably does happen from time to time, but that it is so rare that it doesn't practically happen. I have said that as plainly as possible multiple times. So it is rude to then say that my claim is, "These things can never happen and will never happen in all of human history." Also, making such absurd statements while pretending to quote someone is clearly an insult. It is an obvious example of mocking someone to their face. This discussion has never yet reached that level of rudeness and I don't see why it has to.
    I understand that you see it that way. I also understand that Psyren has a similar perspective just with the some of the nouns swapped. This discussion reached that level of rudeness a while ago. (Here is a good video explaining the effect)
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2015-06-24 at 01:22 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SowZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I understand that you see it that way. I also understand that Psyren has a similar perspective just with the some of the nouns swapped. This discussion reached that level of rudeness a while ago. (Here is a good video explaining the effect)
    If that rudeness was ever reached, and I ever mocked somebody, I apologize. But less than half a page ago, I said, "Practically no one ever would drop their sword in combat. The odds aren't zero, but pretty close." So I don't see what is gained by trying to represent me as a ludicrous person making statements like, "this would never happen in human history," except for mocking.
    Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
    Avatar by Kymme

  9. - Top - End - #219
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Denver.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Out of curiosity, does ANYONE in this thread actually like the official fumble rules found in the DMG?
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    If that rudeness was ever reached, and I ever mocked somebody, I apologize. But less than half a page ago, I said, "Practically no one ever would drop their sword in combat. The odds aren't zero, but pretty close." So I don't see what is gained by trying to represent me as a ludicrous person making statements like, "this would never happen in human history," except for mocking.
    That video really does do a better job of explaining this but I'll give it a go:

    1) When 2 sides argue there are 4 sides involved when you count the positions as separate from the people(useful for analysis of the memetic evolution). The positions tend to adjust and shift over time. Versions of the positions that tend to reach compromise or understanding tend to drop out of the argument(look back over the thread for many example discussions that have gone quiet). So as time goes on the positions adjust and shift to be resilient and resistant to compromise or understanding.

    2) When 2 sides argue, each side frequently talks to itself about the other side. This ends up with each side having a distorted/strawman version of the other side.

    So the constant misrepresentation is unlikely to be intentionally mocking if it were even intentional in the first place.

    Sidenote: This forum has some structural components that leave it more vulnerable to this kind of problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Out of curiosity, does ANYONE in this thread actually like the official fumble rules found in the DMG?
    There were official fumble rules in 3.5? I honestly did not know that. Without even looking at them I can guess that WotC was not up to the task of making decent fumble rules. [checking now] I couldn't find them.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2015-06-24 at 01:45 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Honestly this has been pretty civil overall as I see it, especially for what can be a hot button topic.

    Also, Flickerdart, your list of how we die by day to day activities? Shins man, shins. Coffee tables the world over are quietly plotting to overthrow us. First step, cripple us all with broken legs by banging our shins.

    Actually that's surprisingly like D&D with mimics, suffocating pillows, rooms that eat adventurers. Just can't trust home furnishings.....

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    There were official fumble rules in 3.5?
    I had that same reaction
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vendin, probably
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Throughout the course of this discussion, I've admitted several times that it could happen and probably does happen from time to time, but that it is so rare that it doesn't practically happen.
    The implied follow-up conclusion from this is "and therefore it shouldn't be in any fumble rules." And that's a perfectly fine stance to take at your table; I'm merely pointing out why some other tables won't agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    There were official fumble rules in 3.5? I honestly did not know that. Without even looking at them I can guess that WotC was not up to the task of making decent fumble rules. [checking now] I couldn't find them.
    DMG 28, in a sidebar. They're also in the index.

    (And no, I don't like them.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Well, at least those ones allow a DC 10 Dexterity check, so you can make yourself immune.

  14. - Top - End - #224
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    DMG 28, in a sidebar. They're also in the index.

    (And no, I don't like them.)
    Found it. Thanks.

    An unmodified Dex check on a nat 1? With the suggested effects being in line with a lost turn? Ouch, that's a worse design than Monk.

    I do not like them and even the players I know that kinda like fumbles would not like those fumbles.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    Well, at least those ones allow a DC 10 Dexterity check, so you can make yourself immune.
    Exactly - they're either pointless or crippling - the nadir of rules design.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Exactly - they're either pointless or crippling - the nadir of rules design.
    If you've made yourself immune it doesn't make your enemies immune. High level Weapon Finese TWF fighter will easily have +9, while a STR-based THW fighter would fail that check far more often. So in that sense it makes the weaker choice stronger, contributing to the balance among the melee guys, and even increases the power of TWF fighters relative to casters.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2015-06-24 at 02:54 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Flickerdart's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Also, Flickerdart, your list of how we die by day to day activities? Shins man, shins. Coffee tables the world over are quietly plotting to overthrow us. First step, cripple us all with broken legs by banging our shins.

    Actually that's surprisingly like D&D with mimics, suffocating pillows, rooms that eat adventurers. Just can't trust home furnishings.....
    Don't forget the dread gazebo...
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sovereign State of Denial

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Don't forget the dread gazebo...
    I don't think I know that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

  19. - Top - End - #229
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    I don't think I know that one.
    http://www.dndadventure.com/html/art...g_stories.html

    you're welcome

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sovereign State of Denial

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    If you've made yourself immune it doesn't make your enemies immune. High level Weapon Finese TWF fighter will easily have +9, while a STR-based THW fighter would fail that check far more often. So in that sense it makes the weaker choice stronger, contributing to the balance among the melee guys, and even increases the power of TWF fighters relative to casters.
    DC 10 is so miniscule it's not worth taking seriously. Very few PCs and almost no monsters are going to fail this past the lowest of levels, so the rule may as well not be there at all. And losing an entire turn is far worse than being sickened, shaken or even falling prone.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  22. - Top - End - #232
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    DC 10 is so miniscule it's not worth taking seriously. Very few PCs and almost no monsters are going to fail this past the lowest of levels, so the rule may as well not be there at all. And losing an entire turn is far worse than being sickened, shaken or even falling prone.
    I think some of that was hyperbole since how many PCs get 28+ Dex(even assuming +6 Gloves)? :)
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2015-06-24 at 04:55 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    You don't have to get to +9 though (and I apologize for not being clear.) You're talking about a check that only triggers 5% of the time to begin with. Getting it down to 35% failure (i.e. 16 dex) means you will only lose a turn ~2% of the time. I'd rather have a lighter penalty (e.g. sickened or prone) that triggers more often.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  24. - Top - End - #234
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You don't have to get to +9 though (and I apologize for not being clear.) You're talking about a check that only triggers 5% of the time to begin with. Getting it down to 35% failure (i.e. 16 dex) means you will only lose a turn ~2% of the time. I'd rather have a lighter penalty (e.g. sickened or prone) that triggers more often.
    Ah. Then you could start with an 8 Dex for only a 2.5% occurrence.
    I definitely agree on the lighter penalty.

  25. - Top - End - #235
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Getting it down to 35% failure (i.e. 16 dex) means you will only lose a turn ~2% of the time.
    ...if you attack only once a round. Plenty of monsters have 3 attacks and dex in the 10-17 range.

  26. - Top - End - #236
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    There were official fumble rules in 3.5?
    It's where I started from way back when... :)

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by martixy View Post
    It's where I started from way back when... :)
    Hey its you! So 8 pages later where are you on the topic?
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vendin, probably
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    ...if you attack only once a round. Plenty of monsters have 3 attacks and dex in the 10-17 range.
    Point, but for monsters with multiple attacks, that only makes the "daze" penalty even worse. At the very least it shouldn't be the only result of a fumble.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Hey its you! So 8 pages later where are you on the topic?
    Yes, yes I am still here... even with a slight delay due to life.

    It has been an illuminating discussion - one that's changed my mind - from "Yes, I will have fumble rules in my game." to "I will have to think really hard how to balance this and I will notify my players before-hand and it will be optional/players decision as whether to stick with them."
    So I'd like to thank everyone who contributed.

    I still like the idea a lot.
    But I've learned that:
    1. Don't force them.
    2. This is a game, gameplay considerations take priority over "But in real life...".
    3. Don't make the players hate the rule, just their luck.

    The current working concept is this:
    Less egregious fumbles(and only for mundanes), and you get to choose if you take the fumble in exchange for an action point.
    But they go hand in hand with the opposite side - extra cool things on nat20s.

    Basically a unique shtick to set apart mundanes from casters, and add to their options.

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Default Re: Good fumble rules

    Quote Originally Posted by martixy View Post
    Less egregious fumbles(and only for mundanes), and you get to choose if you take the fumble in exchange for an action point.
    That one is not problem free either: 10th level warrior dons his armor, gets Fast Healing 1 and some DR, grabs two whips and picks a fight with some CR 1/3 creature that has natural armor 3 or greater. The fight lasts till that creature kills itself due to fumbles and the warrior ends up with a bunch of extra Action Points.

    It might be better to attach Fumble rules to story appropriate moments and challenges, and not to arbitrary in-combat moments. I.e. failed fumbled Climb check for a cliff can make that whole cliff collapse...
    Last edited by SinsI; 2015-06-30 at 12:03 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •