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Thread: Good fumble rules
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2015-06-24, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
You could fumble while striking a dummy at an angle and have a similar result though. People injure themselves while practicing alone all the time.
But again, I prefer fumbles that could not result in damage from a dummy as that is what leads to the silly scenario of the roomful of dead warriors.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-24, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2015-06-24, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
See, whenever I read something like "this occurrence has never happened anywhere in thousands of years of history, even once" - unless it's talking about somebody swallowing the sun or something similarly outlandish, I just instantly tune out. I find it just too implausible.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-24, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Look, you're the one being absolutist, not me. You are intentionally warping my words in a dishonest manner and I don't know why you feel the need to do that. You made up this phrase I never implied at is very rude. When people say, "That doesn't happen," they don't mean it could never happen in the history of the universe. That is not how human beings talk. This is not how language works. If I heard that someone fell off a seventeen story building with no parachute and nothing slowed his fall and he landed on concrete and I said, "Well, I'm sure he's dead." that doesn't mean there is a zero percent chance of his survival. It has happened a couple of times. But it is fine to say, "Falling seventeen stories onto concrete will kill you," it is not untrue.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2015-06-24, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Throughout the course of this discussion, I've admitted several times that it could happen and probably does happen from time to time, but that it is so rare that it doesn't practically happen. I have said that as plainly as possible multiple times. So it is rude to then say that my claim is, "These things can never happen and will never happen in all of human history." Also, making such absurd statements while pretending to quote someone is clearly an insult. It is an obvious example of mocking someone to their face. This discussion has never yet reached that level of rudeness and I don't see why it has to.
Last edited by SowZ; 2015-06-24 at 01:11 PM.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2015-06-24, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
I understand that you see it that way. I also understand that Psyren has a similar perspective just with the some of the nouns swapped. This discussion reached that level of rudeness a while ago. (Here is a good video explaining the effect)
Last edited by OldTrees1; 2015-06-24 at 01:22 PM.
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2015-06-24, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
If that rudeness was ever reached, and I ever mocked somebody, I apologize. But less than half a page ago, I said, "Practically no one ever would drop their sword in combat. The odds aren't zero, but pretty close." So I don't see what is gained by trying to represent me as a ludicrous person making statements like, "this would never happen in human history," except for mocking.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2015-06-24, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Out of curiosity, does ANYONE in this thread actually like the official fumble rules found in the DMG?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2015-06-24, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
That video really does do a better job of explaining this but I'll give it a go:
1) When 2 sides argue there are 4 sides involved when you count the positions as separate from the people(useful for analysis of the memetic evolution). The positions tend to adjust and shift over time. Versions of the positions that tend to reach compromise or understanding tend to drop out of the argument(look back over the thread for many example discussions that have gone quiet). So as time goes on the positions adjust and shift to be resilient and resistant to compromise or understanding.
2) When 2 sides argue, each side frequently talks to itself about the other side. This ends up with each side having a distorted/strawman version of the other side.
So the constant misrepresentation is unlikely to be intentionally mocking if it were even intentional in the first place.
Sidenote: This forum has some structural components that leave it more vulnerable to this kind of problem.
There were official fumble rules in 3.5? I honestly did not know that. Without even looking at them I can guess that WotC was not up to the task of making decent fumble rules. [checking now] I couldn't find them.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2015-06-24 at 01:45 PM.
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2015-06-24, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Honestly this has been pretty civil overall as I see it, especially for what can be a hot button topic.
Also, Flickerdart, your list of how we die by day to day activities? Shins man, shins. Coffee tables the world over are quietly plotting to overthrow us. First step, cripple us all with broken legs by banging our shins.
Actually that's surprisingly like D&D with mimics, suffocating pillows, rooms that eat adventurers. Just can't trust home furnishings.....
I had that same reaction
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2015-06-24, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
The implied follow-up conclusion from this is "and therefore it shouldn't be in any fumble rules." And that's a perfectly fine stance to take at your table; I'm merely pointing out why some other tables won't agree with you.
DMG 28, in a sidebar. They're also in the index.
(And no, I don't like them.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-24, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Well, at least those ones allow a DC 10 Dexterity check, so you can make yourself immune.
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2015-06-24, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
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2015-06-24, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-24, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
If you've made yourself immune it doesn't make your enemies immune. High level Weapon Finese TWF fighter will easily have +9, while a STR-based THW fighter would fail that check far more often. So in that sense it makes the weaker choice stronger, contributing to the balance among the melee guys, and even increases the power of TWF fighters relative to casters.
Last edited by SinsI; 2015-06-24 at 02:54 PM.
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2015-06-24, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
http://www.dndadventure.com/html/art...g_stories.html
you're welcome
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2015-06-24, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
DC 10 is so miniscule it's not worth taking seriously. Very few PCs and almost no monsters are going to fail this past the lowest of levels, so the rule may as well not be there at all. And losing an entire turn is far worse than being sickened, shaken or even falling prone.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-24, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
You don't have to get to +9 though (and I apologize for not being clear.) You're talking about a check that only triggers 5% of the time to begin with. Getting it down to 35% failure (i.e. 16 dex) means you will only lose a turn ~2% of the time. I'd rather have a lighter penalty (e.g. sickened or prone) that triggers more often.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-24, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-24, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2015-06-29, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
Yes, yes I am still here... even with a slight delay due to life.
It has been an illuminating discussion - one that's changed my mind - from "Yes, I will have fumble rules in my game." to "I will have to think really hard how to balance this and I will notify my players before-hand and it will be optional/players decision as whether to stick with them."
So I'd like to thank everyone who contributed.
I still like the idea a lot.
But I've learned that:
1. Don't force them.
2. This is a game, gameplay considerations take priority over "But in real life...".
3. Don't make the players hate the rule, just their luck.
The current working concept is this:
Less egregious fumbles(and only for mundanes), and you get to choose if you take the fumble in exchange for an action point.
But they go hand in hand with the opposite side - extra cool things on nat20s.
Basically a unique shtick to set apart mundanes from casters, and add to their options.
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2015-06-29, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Good fumble rules
That one is not problem free either: 10th level warrior dons his armor, gets Fast Healing 1 and some DR, grabs two whips and picks a fight with some CR 1/3 creature that has natural armor 3 or greater. The fight lasts till that creature kills itself due to fumbles and the warrior ends up with a bunch of extra Action Points.
It might be better to attach Fumble rules to story appropriate moments and challenges, and not to arbitrary in-combat moments. I.e. failed fumbled Climb check for a cliff can make that whole cliff collapse...Last edited by SinsI; 2015-06-30 at 12:03 AM.