Ninjas or samurai?

[Dhavaer]

I'm in love with you.

Awesome. I'm sure there used to be a thread for that...

[Samurai Iesu]

I totally agree with Owca. Samurai aren't just soldiers. Each one is a one man army who is completely devoted to everything they do. They live by the sword. And unlike ninjas, they don't do stupid sneak attacks in the dark. I guess it all boils down to personal oppionion. If you care about honor you choose samurai. And if you like sneak attacks you choose ninjas. People in the middle choose an idealistic form of ninja or rogue samurai. I personally am all about the deep culture and honor. But there is no arguing the importance of ninjas. While samurai were the ultimate field fighters of Japan and the strongest in any one-o-one combat. But in numbers and sneak attacks, ninjas were the essential sneaky dudes that all the samurai lords needed. They actually had a lot in common, but lived a very different life on the battlefield. Now, the more ninjas you have, the stronger. If you have about 5-1 samurai. If you have 1 samurai to 3 ninjas. Samurai has a 50/50 chance. If you have an army of 20 samurai vs 20 ninjas, they are about even. The samurai would kill everything in their path while the ninjas would get behind the samurai and kill them from behind. All in all I think there would be one ninja left standing, but ninjas cost only slightly less than samurai, and samurai often commanded many more infantry. No they were not just foot soldiers. So that is why they didn't use ninjas on the battle-field like samurai, they were used for ambushes, their primary function.

Srry this is so long. If you read this far or just skimmed ahead, to sum it up. Ninjas suck in one-on-one and battlefield. Ninjas good at ambush. All depends on your personal prefference which is batter.

[Dib]

I said Ninja... I like the sneaky... I also like the choppy... and honour... and armour... but sneaky! Slide up behind like leaf and stabbity like stabby thing!! and they wear black :P

[Samurai Iesu]

I still honestly don't see how anyone can like the sneakyness thing. It just makes fighting no fun. I'm not saying they're impractical, I just think the idea sucks.

[Wojiz]

I still honestly don't see how anyone can like the sneakyness thing. It just makes fighting no fun. I'm not saying they're impractical, I just think the idea sucks.

Clearly, you've never played Splinter Cell, Thief or Metal Gear.

[Samurai General]

No, he hasen't. Ninja can be hardcore.

[Armads]

Samurai all the way. Bushido is a way of life. Ninjas are all sneaky and treacherous...

But sneaking around and poking people to death with a pointy stick unseen is much more effective than running around with a sword trying to cut down someone who can probably outrun you anyway due to him not wearing heavy armor.

[Artemician]

But sneaking around and poking people to death with a pointy stick unseen is much more effective than running around with a sword trying to cut down someone who can probably outrun you anyway due to him not wearing heavy armor.

Samurai armour is optimized for horseback combat, trying to run around in it is kinda hard, yea.

Which is why you draw your bow and shoot him.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Samurai. Cause everyone who's dug into ninja history realizes that early ninja were nothing other then samurai in disguise.


PS: the lack of good information in this thread is almost terrifying

[Xuincherguixe]

Samurai. Cause everyone who's dug into ninja history realizes that early ninja were nothing other then samurai in disguise.


PS: the lack of good information in this thread is almost terrifying

I was kind of aware of that as is, but Ninja seemed to become another sort of 'thing'. Especially when you get into the myths.

[Emperor Ing]

Ninjas:
PROS: Stealth, Agility, lethal efficiency, neutral in conflicts, Trained Assassins
CONS: considered civilians

Samurais:
PROS: Large Katanas, Trained Warriors, Armor?
CONS: Whats it called when a samurai survives after losing a battle, and they kill themselves?

I cant think of much more, but the ninjas have more pros, so ninjas win, not to mention Chuck Norris is a ninja!

[Cyborg Pirate]

I was kind of aware of that as is, but Ninja seemed to become another sort of 'thing'. Especially when you get into the myths.

Well, ofcourse when you get into the myths, especially the ones created by the ones they are about themselves, ofcourse things become a bit... different:

Ninjas:
PROS: Stealth, Agility, lethal efficiency, neutral in conflicts, Trained Assassins
CONS: considered civilians

Samurais:
PROS: Large Katanas, Trained Warriors, Armor?
CONS: Whats it called when a samurai survives after losing a battle, and they kill themselves?

I cant think of much more, but the ninjas have more pros, so ninjas win, not to mention Chuck Norris is a ninja!

If we do this by the myths, we gets:


Ninja
PROs: Illusionistic magic, Supernatural stealth, Lethal efficiency, Neutral in conflicts, Trained assasins.
CONs: Subject to ritual suicide to Amida Buddah after a succesfull mission to ensure absolute secrecy, Dead if caught in a fair fight.

Samurai
PROs: Can cut rocks with swords, Can blast through several massive trees with a single arrow, Can deflect an army's worth of arrows with a single naginata, Trained warriors, Armour.
CONs: Subject to ritual suicide upon death of lord or face exile.

[I'm da Rogue!]

...not to mention Chuck Norris is a ninja!

Chuck Norris is not a ninja.
Ninjas are Chuck Norris.

[Samurai Iesu]

The ritual suicide (Sepuku or Harakiri) can be considered a pro or con. Depending on how you look at it. I don't like it, but it just shows you how devoted they were to honor. I find it upsetting and fassicating at the same time.

It's starting to Erk me that no one is putting honor in pros and cons. I mean to anyone who finds moral standards important, honor is a huge deal. And ninjas can't do that stuff just mentioned and niether could samurai, but I assume you knew that. Ninja and samurai started out almost the same, but soon became very different. I think the best thing lays in the middle of them. A rouge samurai surves no one and is still a trained killing machine. But seriousely a katana held by a samurai can cut through metal armor. And not all samurai wore armor all the time. I prefer the ones that used their robes. They were the most skilled because they were not in war they fought domesticly, and they did not need to worry about being hit because they were so skilled. Now a couple of average ninja can take down a samurai easy, but the top samurai were able to take down almost any number of top ranking ninja. They are on completely different playing fields. But I still dont' get the sneaking thing.

[Murongo]

Samurai, by definition, is just a Japanese soldier. Ninjas are Japanese assassins.

So the question is: What's cooler, a soldier or an assassin?
Now obviously there are moderates and extremas to the debate. The average soldier we'll say is an American GI. The average assassin? Probably a hired hitman. Personally, I think the hitman has more flavor, but the GI would win in a fight. It's pretty closely tied. 1 point each.

So let's try the positive extreme. The coolest soldiers ever are definitely the Spartans. The coolest assassins? Probably ninjas. Whose cooler? Well, again, I think the ninja has more flavor but the spartan would probably destroy him in close combat. Again, 1 point each.

So let's try the negative extreme. Pissant commoner conscript versus road bandit. In this case I think the bandit has more flavor and would win in the fight. That's 2 points for the bandit.

So it's a close match, but I have to go with ninja.

[Cyborg Pirate]

The ritual suicide (Sepuku or Harakiri) can be considered a pro or con.

It's starting to Erk me that no one is putting honor in pros and cons.

Well, the very reason I didn't put it in there is in your first sentence. Depending on your perspective, it's either a pro or con. I don't think it's useful to list it in such a case.



@Morungo: If you're going to look at it realistically, you should know that the first (and real) ninja were simply samurai performing clandestine operations. Ninja as a truly seperate group only sprang up much later, and were usually old samurai families who've gone into specialisation when other samurai went more into desk-jobs and politics.

Which is why I can never look at a ninja vs samurai question seriously, since in reality, they were one and the same.

[Cyborg Pirate]

But seriousely a katana held by a samurai can cut through metal armor. And not all samurai wore armor all the time. I prefer the ones that used their robes. They were the most skilled because they were not in war they fought domesticly, and they did not need to worry about being hit because they were so skilled.

1: No, Katana can Not cut through proper metal armour. It could cut into (into, not through, important destinction) inferior metal armour, but this is something you do Not want to do with your katana. There are other weapons for that.

2: The Katana was a peace-time self-defense weapon and a wartime back-up weapon. The preference for samurai who used their robes is a meaningless one, as all samurai went armoured in war, and robed when not.

Unless you're talking about samurai fiction ofcourse.

[ufo]

Hey, when did this topic get revived?

Anyways, many people think to see samurai from a fictional point, even more than those who see ninjas from a fictional point! What's it with these katanas? Do the elves use them or something?

[Artemician]

1: No, Katana can Not cut through proper metal armour. It could cut into (into, not through, important destinction) inferior metal armour, but this is something you do Not want to do with your katana. There are other weapons for that.

2: The Katana was a peace-time self-defense weapon and a wartime back-up weapon. The preference for samurai who used their robes is a meaningless one, as all samurai went armoured in war, and robed when not.

Unless you're talking about samurai fiction ofcourse.

All correct there. However, while the katana did not really see much use in battle, it was, however, considered the "soul" of a samurai. To be a samurai and not possess a set of daisho was considered a dishonour. The weapon used to settle formal duels, and offered to your Lord when swearing fealty, would be the katana.

[Samurai Iesu]

As far as honor not being put in the pros and cons, all of them are a form of oppinion. I in particular find sneakyness to be a con amoung others.

I have seen a katana cut through metal. I have seen a bullet shot at a katana and get sliced in two. I know what I'm talking about as far as that goes.

It is true that at first the katana did not get much use on the battlefield. The prefered weapon was the bow and arrow, but as combat grew closer, and samurai began to fall off of their horses, samurai used the katana more and more. I mainly talk about the samurai in the period right before the samurai were no longer of use. And I will admit that I do have an idealistic view of samurai, taking all the good things I can see in them and putting them into the same time period, but really they changed a lot as time went on. The coolest thing about samurai, no doubt, is their one-on-one dualing abilities. That is what I love. I mean who doesn't love a good samurai dual? A ninja dual just isn't the same.

[Cyborg Pirate]

As far as honor not being put in the pros and cons, all of them are a form of oppinion. I in particular find sneakyness to be a con amoung others.

I have seen a katana cut through metal. I have seen a bullet shot at a katana and get sliced in two. I know what I'm talking about as far as that goes.

It is true that at first the katana did not get much use on the battlefield. The prefered weapon was the bow and arrow, but as combat grew closer, and samurai began to fall off of their horses, samurai used the katana more and more.

1: Sneakyness would only be a con if it were used against you pro's and con's are listed from the perspective of the one they would benefit most I'd say.

2: I work with them on an almost daily basis. Believe me when I say they Don't cut through metal. Tests done with katana on metal helmets and the like were performed on inferior metal, seriously. And the bullet vs katana thing, it works when the bullet hits head-on, especially since the bullet is soft, but have you also seen the follow-up test where the bullet broke the katana in half? The katana is a great weapon, and it's my personal favourite for close-range self-defense in civillian garb. But it's not a uber-weapon, and I prefer it to be appreciated for its true qualities (which are great) then its fictional ones.

3: At first, it got no use at all. It was only introduced in the 1400's and only got more popular towards the late 1400's (and the samurai had lots and lots of war already before that. I'd even go as far to say that the best samurai stories come from before that, but that's personal opinion). It got popular not because "samurai started falling of their horses" (rofl, mental image), but because the amount of warriors on foot and warriors of low wealth grew far greater compared to the amount of warriors with expensive and troublesome horses (japanese war-pony's are a really headstrong breed). The katana is useless against a well armoured opponent (not just because of the characteristics of the blade, but also because of the risk to the weapon. You don't go breaking your weapons on hard targets when you can just as easily grapple and break a few limbs), but excellent against lesser armoured samurai and poorly armoured ashigaru. The katana started out as a poor man's sidearm, and only really gained universal popularity after the age of big battles had ended.


@Artemician: True that.



[Edit]

The coolest thing about samurai, no doubt, is their one-on-one dualing abilities. That is what I love. I mean who doesn't love a good samurai dual? A ninja dual just isn't the same.

Quoted for Truth!

[Sye216]

Despite the fact that I'm a flaming Narutard, it's hard for me to really pick. Both have advantages and vice-versa, and both have awesome fighting techniques. The blazing, unstoppable warrior, or the dark, silent assassin. Both of these styles appeal to me because I see them often. In my dreams, I'm kind of like a samurai, and in real life I'm incredibly sneaky, like a ninja. So, to be totally honest, it's close, but I'll have to go with ninjas. It's really a matter of opinion, so I don't really get mad if anyone flames the other.

[Jalor]

I totally agree with Owca. Samurai aren't just soldiers. Each one is a one man army who is completely devoted to everything they do. They live by the sword. And unlike ninjas, they don't do stupid sneak attacks in the dark. I guess it all boils down to personal oppionion. If you care about honor you choose samurai. And if you like sneak attacks you choose ninjas. People in the middle choose an idealistic form of ninja or rogue samurai. I personally am all about the deep culture and honor. But there is no arguing the importance of ninjas. While samurai were the ultimate field fighters of Japan and the strongest in any one-o-one combat. But in numbers and sneak attacks, ninjas were the essential sneaky dudes that all the samurai lords needed. They actually had a lot in common, but lived a very different life on the battlefield. Now, the more ninjas you have, the stronger. If you have about 5-1 samurai. If you have 1 samurai to 3 ninjas. Samurai has a 50/50 chance. If you have an army of 20 samurai vs 20 ninjas, they are about even. The samurai would kill everything in their path while the ninjas would get behind the samurai and kill them from behind. All in all I think there would be one ninja left standing, but ninjas cost only slightly less than samurai, and samurai often commanded many more infantry. No they were not just foot soldiers. So that is why they didn't use ninjas on the battle-field like samurai, they were used for ambushes, their primary function.

Srry this is so long. If you read this far or just skimmed ahead, to sum it up. Ninjas suck in one-on-one and battlefield. Ninjas good at ambush. All depends on your personal prefference which is batter.

QFT.

Oh, and I voted Samurai, having taken Jiujitsu classes for years (for anyone who doesn't know, Jiujitsu was the martial art used by Samurai).

[Samurai Iesu]

Well Cyborg Pirate, I can admit when I'm wrong. I do know what I've seen, but it must've been rather week metal that was cut through. I agree with you 100%. You seem to know what you're talking about better than I! XD But it still doesn't dominish how cool samurai are. I actually thank you for pointing out where I was wrong. I'm kinda suprised that ninjas are still winning. Oh well. GO SAMURAI!!! XP

[Murongo]

1: No, Katana can Not cut through proper metal armour. It could cut into (into, not through, important destinction) inferior metal armour, but this is something you do Not want to do with your katana. There are other weapons for that.

2: The Katana was a peace-time self-defense weapon and a wartime back-up weapon. The preference for samurai who used their robes is a meaningless one, as all samurai went armoured in war, and robed when not.

Unless you're talking about samurai fiction ofcourse.

Fortunately for katana-wielders no samurai, or for that matter, any eastern warrior, wore metal armor until long after it was useless as a ceremonial thing. And even then it was only because western nations brought that custom to them.

Samurai "armor", if they wore any, was ceramic. There's no way a katana could cut through that either, but it was heavy and had a lot of weak points to exploit (the neck for one).

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

Thinkin about it... Samurai's, while their nature is quite cool (as in frigid), they are not meant to be cool, they are meant to serve...

Ninja's ain't cool either 'cause they're sneaky basters (even though they should keep their cool or screw up a mission)...

hmmm. difficult this one... Maybe 'cause Ninja's only dress in their kinky black outfit when on mission, the rest of the time they look like Samurai too (with the nifty haircuts and all) ;)

I'd say Ronin are the cool chaps in feudal Japan 'cause they can be BOTH

[Samurai Iesu]

I've never heard of a Ronin, but I think I'm sticking with a rouge samurai. They serve only themselves, and are still a trained killing machine trying to mantain their honor.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Fortunately for katana-wielders no samurai, or for that matter, any eastern warrior, wore metal armor until long after it was useless as a ceremonial thing. And even then it was only because western nations brought that custom to them.

Samurai "armor", if they wore any, was ceramic. There's no way a katana could cut through that either, but it was heavy and had a lot of weak points to exploit (the neck for one).

...What? What are your sources on this? I have never come across such in my studies. Ceramic? I haven't come across a specimen of samurai armour made out of ceramic. Could you cite some sources on this?

Samurai armour was constructed out of lacquered metal, leather, or a combination of both. The rich could afford all metal armours, the poor would wear various levels of leather protection (usually leaving the legs, arms and heads unarmoured) and those of moderate wealth wore armours constructed by using the metal strips on the easiest to hit areas and leather strips on the rest of the armour.

Full metal armour was already well in use by the majority of the samurai in the 1200's and later. Full suits of O-yoroi (used on horseback) unanimously featured neck protection, so I don't really see where you get the neck vulnerability from. Wars went on into the late 1500's... sooo....

I've never heard of a Ronin, but I think I'm sticking with a rouge samurai. They serve only themselves, and are still a trained killing machine trying to mantain their honor.

Rouge samurai! Discipline, badassery, and Fantastic Makeup!

Or did you mean rogue samurai? Rogue samurai are ronin, so you can safely think ronin are cool too

[Samurai Iesu]

And I did notice the ceramic armor bit. WTF??? Ceramic armor is just stupid! It would break on contact and would wiegh well over any logical ammount. It would be like carrying around several massive bags of dirt.

And technically, any point of motion could be a weakness. Being that it would be made of leather, and would be softer, it would be easier to break through. Now I've seen people cut down trees with the swords they used. If they can do that, they can cut through some leather armor. That's just my opinioin though.

[Deleran]

Obviously the clincher here is that Mauricio Rua is a better fighter than his older brother Murilo.