What is the worst weapon?

[SkipSandwich]

Not with a regular sling, I don't think. There are instead alchemical capsules which can be used with a sling (see Libris Mortis, page 73 or Arms and Equipment Guide, page 33) but those capsules do less damage than the full-size flasks (1d4 instead of 2d4 for holy water, and 1d4 instead of 1d6 for acid or alchemist's fire).

There was a exotic sling called a Gnomish Calculus or something in one of the splatbooks, Either Arms and Equipment or Races of Stone IIRC for throwing normal flasks of fire or acid. Not a bad weapon per se, especially if your DM rules that rider effects from enchantments also apply to targets hit by the splash damage, but otherwise too gimmicky to be worth the feat.

[Bucky]

(Pf based; may not also be true in 3.5)
Brass Knuckles seem to be straight-up worse than (spiked) gauntlets.
A hurlbat (ranged weapon that can be used in melee) is similar to a throwing axe (light weapon that can be thrown). Upside: can deal piercing damage. Downside: When you use it in melee, make a reflex save to avoid cutting yourself.
Tri-bladed katar: Exotic weapon that's functionally identical to a light pick. Except the light pick has a small amount of support from e.g. the Dwarven Swashbuckler favored class bonus.

[ericgrau]

whip.

exotic, hard to use, it now requires skilltricks to even do indiana jones type stuff with it. its damage is trash, and if your opponent has any NA at all, it does nothing. plus it doesn't threaten.

Trips and disarms (both weapons and objects) at range and bards get free proficiency. Most bard spells that have a save aren't that good, so I could see a con > str > dex > other bard including a whip in his array of tricks. Or even without str on a cha bard it's still an option. Due to the range you avoid attacks of opportunity so you may as well spend the 1 gp and have it as an option against foes with a poor modifier. Trip small guys (-4 size), nab spell component pouches (-4 object, poor BAB), etc. Foes might have counters, but those take weight or other resources so they might not.

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar. And fluffwise you'd have to tell me what the difference is because I forget. EDIT: I googled it... the fluff difference is about the same as the mechanical difference. Not sure what character concept would be dying to use a mace instead, especially since when I picture a mace what I actually picture is a morningstar.

A punching dagger is generally a hair worse than a dagger but at least it's better for coup de graces rather than always inferior.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar. And fluffwise you'd have to tell me what the difference is because I forget. EDIT: I googled it... the fluff difference is about the same as the mechanical difference. Not sure what character concept would be dying to use a mace instead, especially since when I picture a mace what I actually picture is a morningstar.

Mace is metal throughout, morningstar is hafted. So I always assumed the "balance" was meant to be the latter is much easier to sunder. Which is not a good method of balancing them.

But yeah, I have never seen the point to the heavy mace, it's strictly worse. And to top it all off...the morningstar is one of the coolest-looking basic weapons there is, IMO. If they weren't numerically superior, I'd probably be trying to use the heavy mace stats and fluffing the look as if it were a morningstar anyway.

[paranoidbox]

I had to look up the Fukimi-Bari in the A&E because I was utterly confused by the things said about it here, and it's hilarious! You spit them, they're mouth-darts! :D That's brilliant in all of its stupidity. I can sort of see why they would include it in the weapon's list because... well, who wouldn't want to spit darts at an enemy? As far as I can tell they're not very historically accurate though, so that's silly. But I can just see a build with a Hollow Tooth of Holding filled with Fukimi-Bari and the Far Shot feat. Maybe the Splitting enchantment and the Rapid Shot feat should be involved, too? Hmmm.

As for my suggestion of the worst weapon, I would nominate the atlatl (Sandstorm).
It has the same damage and range increment as a sling, except that it has a x3 crit (alright, that's cool), but it's a martial weapon, not a simple one. If you have access to the martial weapons list, then you're not going to be choosing an atlatl. (I guess, as a plus, it benefits from high str, although it's not actually mentioned in the text so who knows. The reload time isn't mentioned either, but I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to rule it like a sling since it's obviously been inspired by it.)
But the main fail of this weapon is its ammunition, the atlatl spear, which costs 1 gp AND weighs 2 lbs per spear. I don't think you can even use the spears in melee, because, again, it's not actually mentioned anywhere.
At least the atlatl has actually been used, historically speaking, so well done for that...? I guess?

[Curmudgeon]

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar.

I supposed if you wanted to avoid piercing damage (like the bygone Cleric "cannot shed blood" restriction) then a bludgeoning-only weapon would be a better choice. A monster healed by piercing (healthy aeration of the skin?) maybe, but I don't think that's an actual thing.

[Rubik]

I supposed if you wanted to avoid piercing damage (like the bygone Cleric "cannot shed blood" restriction) then a bludgeoning-only weapon would be a better choice. A monster healed by piercing (healthy aeration of the skin?) maybe, but I don't think that's an actual thing.

Wasn't the clerical restriction because piercing and slashing weapons are considered inhumane?

Because bashing someone's skull in and crushing their bones to paste is so humanitarian.

[Venger]

Wasn't the clerical restriction because piercing and slashing weapons are considered inhumane?

Because bashing someone's skull in and crushing their bones to paste is so humanitarian.

no. it was a real historical thing. it was a way of rules lawyering around the "spill no blood" edict by not piercing your enemy's skin in order to kill him. it had nothing to do with being nice.

[mabriss lethe]

Not with a regular sling, I don't think. There are instead alchemical capsules which can be used with a sling (see Libris Mortis, page 73 or Arms and Equipment Guide, page 33) but those capsules do less damage than the full-size flasks (1d4 instead of 2d4 for holy water, and 1d4 instead of 1d6 for acid or alchemist's fire).

There's also the Gnome Calculus.

[Deadkitten]

I had to look up the Fukimi-Bari in the A&E because I was utterly confused by the things said about it here, and it's hilarious! You spit them, they're mouth-darts! :D That's brilliant in all of its stupidity. I can sort of see why they would include it in the weapon's list because... well, who wouldn't want to spit darts at an enemy? As far as I can tell they're not very historically accurate though, so that's silly. But I can just see a build with a Hollow Tooth of Holding filled with Fukimi-Bari and the Far Shot feat. Maybe the Splitting enchantment and the Rapid Shot feat should be involved, too? Hmmm.

As for my suggestion of the worst weapon, I would nominate the atlatl (Sandstorm).
It has the same damage and range increment as a sling, except that it has a x3 crit (alright, that's cool), but it's a martial weapon, not a simple one. If you have access to the martial weapons list, then you're not going to be choosing an atlatl. (I guess, as a plus, it benefits from high str, although it's not actually mentioned in the text so who knows. The reload time isn't mentioned either, but I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to rule it like a sling since it's obviously been inspired by it.)
But the main fail of this weapon is its ammunition, the atlatl spear, which costs 1 gp AND weighs 2 lbs per spear. I don't think you can even use the spears in melee, because, again, it's not actually mentioned anywhere.
At least the atlatl has actually been used, historically speaking, so well done for that...? I guess?

It always bugged me that that atlatl was not a simple weapon. It was one of the first weapons human beings ever made for crying out loud...

[Venger]

It always bugged me that that atlatl was not a simple weapon. It was one of the first weapons human beings ever made for crying out loud...

unfortunately, "simple" "martial" and "exotic" are assigned essentially at random.

[Sir Chuckles]

unfortunately, "simple" "martial" and "exotic" are assigned essentially at random.

Happens in Pathfinder, as well.
Someone above mentioned bad Pathfinder weapons, and there's an incredible amount of strangely placed weapons, nigh-useless weapons, and weapons that just don't seem to have many, if any, reason to exist.

I'd like to point out the sheep herder's Crook for Pathfinder. A 1d6/x2 Reach weapon with trip. That is Exotic.

[squiggit]

It'd be nice if the designers ever figured out what they wanted "exotic" to mean. Because you have weapons that aren't particularly rare but require some special training to use and weapons that are probably pretty rare but actually easy to use... and weapons the designers just didn't seem to want anyone to use.

[Hrugner]

Happens in Pathfinder, as well.
Someone above mentioned bad Pathfinder weapons, and there's an incredible amount of strangely placed weapons, nigh-useless weapons, and weapons that just don't seem to have many, if any, reason to exist.

I'd like to point out the sheep herder's Crook for Pathfinder. A 1d6/x2 Reach weapon with trip. That is Exotic.

I'm still not sure exactly how a Klar is supposed to interact with anything.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm still not sure exactly how a Klar is supposed to interact with anything.

It's klarly for punning.

[Venger]

It'd be nice if the designers ever figured out what they wanted "exotic" to mean. Because you have weapons that aren't particularly rare but require some special training to use and weapons that are probably pretty rare but actually easy to use... and weapons the designers just didn't seem to want anyone to use.

Exotic is usually code for foreign which is problematic on its own but even that isn't applied with any real consistency

[paranoidbox]

It's klarly for punning.

It's mainly useful if you're a klarbarian.

[The Viscount]

I supposed if you wanted to avoid piercing damage (like the bygone Cleric "cannot shed blood" restriction) then a bludgeoning-only weapon would be a better choice. A monster healed by piercing (healthy aeration of the skin?) maybe, but I don't think that's an actual thing.

I don't know of any monsters like that, but I know of one or two like the alchemical golem that squirts you with chemicals for damage when hit with piercing. That and fire in the blood, I suppose.
And salamanders and similar things can transmit the heat through metal weapons like maces. Small benefit though.

[No brains]

I don't know of any monsters like that, but I know of one or two like the alchemical golem that squirts you with chemicals for damage when hit with piercing. That and fire in the blood, I suppose.
And salamanders and similar things can transmit the heat through metal weapons like maces. Small benefit though.

Don't forget about oozes. While melee is generally a bad idea against them, a morningstar will split them, but a mace will not.

[Platymus Pus]

Trips and disarms (both weapons and objects) at range and bards get free proficiency. Most bard spells that have a save aren't that good, so I could see a con > str > dex > other bard including a whip in his array of tricks. Or even without str on a cha bard it's still an option. Due to the range you avoid attacks of opportunity so you may as well spend the 1 gp and have it as an option against foes with a poor modifier. Trip small guys (-4 size), nab spell component pouches (-4 object, poor BAB), etc. Foes might have counters, but those take weight or other resources so they might not.

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar. And fluffwise you'd have to tell me what the difference is because I forget. EDIT: I googled it... the fluff difference is about the same as the mechanical difference. Not sure what character concept would be dying to use a mace instead, especially since when I picture a mace what I actually picture is a morningstar.

A punching dagger is generally a hair worse than a dagger but at least it's better for coup de graces rather than always inferior.

Get agile for dex dmg added and sudden stunning which is CHA based stunning that dramatically scales on a whip and you can do pretty well.

[animewatcha]

It's actually a weapon with a lot of potential. It already benefits from a number of ranged weapon feats. It's also a prime candidate for Master of Poisons. (hit everyone in range with Lotus Blossom Extract for fun and profit.) Also, by stacking damage enhancements between weapon and ammo and gleeful (ab)use of the aptitude property to cherry pick other useful feats for other weapons, (think Rapid Reload and Boomerang Daze) it can get downright nasty. On top of that, it winds up making feats like Superior Expertise worth a second look, since you can gain a huge dodge boost to AC without actually suffering the penalty for its use.

I've been toying with a fighter build that revolves around its use.... and it's surprisingly effective.

Explain please.

[mabriss lethe]

Explain please.

The sandblaster is classified as an exotic ranged weapon. Many feats that will work with ranged weapons in general will work with a sandblaster. Point blank shot, rapid shot,etc. (though Far Shot is probably the most important.) It also is fully compatible with master of poisons.

When it comes time to trick out your sandblaster with magic enhancements. The first two you'll want to nab (in either order) are Distance and Adaptive. Distance, combined with Far Shot will increase the weapon's range from a 10 foot cone to 30 feet. Adaptive allows you to use the sandblaster in conjunction with feats that are normally incompatible with it. It lets you treat the weapon as if it were of another type for the purposes of using feats that specify the use of a particular weapon. Rapid Reload is a great one, since you can treat your adaptive sandblaster as a light crossbow to reload as a free action. Crossbow sniper is also cool, since it lets you apply half your dex mod to damage. It also opens the door to tricks like Boomerang Daze. You fill out the rest of your enhancements with hard to resist damage dealers. Stuff like Collision or Dessicating. Avoid single energy type enhancements (save those for augment crystals and ammunition buffs.) Also avoid anything that triggers off of a crit, since you don't make attack rolls with a sandblaster. If your character is psionic, making the weapon out of deep crystal and taking the psionic shot feat can also boost your damage significantly.

Since it's a ranged weapon, you can enchant your ammunition separately from your weapon. Here's where you pick up an assortment of specific damage types like flaming or frost, You can also have the sand manufactured out of special materials like adamantine if you want to get silly. You can also grab some oddball special occasion ammo. Some of the dispelling/ illusion breaking ammo types really play well with it, since you just have to point it in the general direction of an invisible or highly magicked opponent to trigger the effect. Explosive ammo is also a fun way to add to the carnage.

A full attacking fighter can knock out multiple attacks either concentrated in the space of one 30 foot cone or spread out across several. If we assume Master of Poisons, Rapid Reload, Boomerang Daze: Every target hit has to save vs the sandblaster's debuff, Save vs poison, Save vs. Daze and take damage from multiple sources, and possibly find defensed dispelled. If you have a group of enemies in a tight space you can hit them repeadedly, forcing multiple saves each time.

For added fun, you can pick up superior expertise and dump your entire BAB into a dodge bonus, since you aren't using your BAB for anything except calculating the number of iterative attacks you can make. I guess you could also snag stone power as well.

[artimus261]

I know I'm replying to this thread two years too late but I'm still gonna say it. The kama. It's literally the sickle. Like. In every way. BUT OH IF YOU'RE A MONK YOU CAN MAKE FLURRY OF BLOWS ATTACKS WITH IT!!! Like you would even want to considering their monster unarmed damage late game, though i guess being able to enchant the bloody things is nice comparatively. Anyways, still going with the kama. It's the exotic simple weapon :U I mean really all of the 'special' monk weapons are pretty terrible. The only one I can even see an argument for is the sai, a blunt dagger that can still be thrown and gains a +4 disarm, not that terrible, but the siangham and kama are just... ugh... terrible.

[Drrakerr]

A bit off topic but its worth mentioning that, in Pathfinder at least, that Gnomes can use as many exotic weapons as they want as long as they can hit a DC 18 craft check and take the Master Tinker alternate racial trait. I once played a Soulforger Magus with a bastard sword and a repeater crossbow. It certainly helps that the Gnome FCB for magus is pretty stellar.

[Marlowe]

no. it was a real historical thing. it was a way of rules lawyering around the "spill no blood" edict by not piercing your enemy's skin in order to kill him. it had nothing to do with being nice.

It was never historical. It's based around Bishop Odo being depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry with a mace. Other medieval churchmen fought with swords just fine.

[SirNibbles]

Caber from Masters of the Wild, page 26: Exotic thrown weapon, deals no damage, requires you to hit AC 15 and allows a Reflex Save to avoid completely. If you hit AC 15, you force everyone in a 10 foot square area who failed their Reflex Save to be moved back 5 feet. If they can't move back, they take a whopping 2d6 damage.

But wait. I haven't gotten to the best part. It's a giant 100 lb log that you have to carry around. Since it's a thrown weapon, you need to carry more than 1 or you have to go and fetch it every time you use it.

This checks all the boxes plus those you'd never even considered:
Exotic (x)
Deals no damage* (x)
Requires an attack roll (x)
Allows a saving throw (x)
Threatens no squares (x)
Annoying to carry around (x)
Single use (x)

*except in rare cases

[Efrate]

Sai's actually give -4 to disarm, because they are tiny so suffer a -8 penalty before the +4 bonus. So your exotic crummy monk weapon specifically designed for disarming is actually worse than most other options.

[Firechanter]

In Pathfinder, the worst weapon has to be their version of the Spiked Chain.

Yes, dear 3.5 purists, you read that right. The only core exotic weapon that's actually worth a feat has been nerfed into insignificance, a fate worse than death.

The PF Spiked Chain no longer has Reach. It still does have the same crappy dmg/crit stats. And it still requires an Exotic WP. So you pay a feat to get something _worse_ than Martial Weapons.

Edit: in particular, pls compare to the Heavy Flail, which also has the Disarm and Trip properties, but does _more_ base damage and has _double_ the Threat range but only requires Martial proficiency.

[frogglesmash]

It may not be notably bad in terms of mechanics, but the gyrspike from the Arms and Equipment Guide is the dumbest weapon I have ever seen. If your not familiar with it, imagine a double bladed sword, but one of the blades is replaced with a flail.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Caber from Masters of the Wild, page 26: Exotic thrown weapon, deals no damage, requires you to hit AC 15 and allows a Reflex Save to avoid completely. If you hit AC 15, you force everyone in a 10 foot square area who failed their Reflex Save to be moved back 5 feet. If they can't move back, they take a whopping 2d6 damage.

But wait. I haven't gotten to the best part. It's a giant 100 lb log that you have to carry around. Since it's a thrown weapon, you need to carry more than 1 or you have to go and fetch it every time you use it.

This checks all the boxes plus those you'd never even considered:
Exotic (x)
Deals no damage* (x)
Requires an attack roll (x)
Allows a saving throw (x)
Threatens no squares (x)
Annoying to carry around (x)
Single use (x)

*except in rare cases

Looks like somebody missed the Caber Optimization thread a few months back.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rs-of-the-Wild