Results 91 to 120 of 121
-
2015-07-08, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
- Location
- A Digital Forest
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
"Its amazing how hostile people can get about an entirely optional campaign setting that they werent forced to play."
-Weasel Fierce (of Dragonsfoot)-
-
2015-07-08, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Location
- Germany
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
For this purpose, I consider all TSR books to be "original rulebooks". In contrast to peoples headcanon and retroclones with various "improvements".
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
-
2015-07-08, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
To be fair, most people do not have access to, nor have ever read, the "original rulebooks". This is probably part of the reason there is so much misinformation about them on forums.
I happen to have the original rules (actually, the fancy WotC reprints in the wood box, but the contents are the same as the originals). In the first three rules booklets, there are rules for designing dungeons, for exploring the wilderness, for setting up fortifications and gaining control of wilderness, for maintaining the morale of one's subjects and preventing peasant uprisings, and so on. The perception that OD&D was ONLY about exploring random dungeons is simply wrong.
That said, the game was explicitly designed to be a game about exploring weird underground labyrinths to search for treasure, so it's fair to say that the focus of the game was on dungeon crawling. OD&D was designed as a supplement to the Chainmail wargame rules, and the combat system that became standard in other versions of D&D was based on the "variant" combat system presented for those who didn't want to use the Chainmail rules.
Claiming that the dungeons didn't exist in the context of a world, setting or culture is wrong. The game didn't present a specific setting, but the assumption was that the referee would create his own setting and make any modifications to the rules he deemed suitable. I know that plenty of people played it as wandering through random labyrinths, gathering treasure, but there's a difference between saying "people often played this way" and "the game was designed this way".
What I love about old-school play is that a lot of details about the setting, the characters, and the plot are emergent rather than predetermined. In the game I ran for my students, random wandering monster results eventually showed us that there was a nearby clan of dwarves who were exploring the dungeon with an eye to reclaiming it eventually. A crippled former adventurer became a hireling of the party, running a smithy they owned and repairing and maintaining the party's equipment. Some of the Chaotic PCs started working for a slaver's guild, assassinating people for the slavers without asking any questions. I started that campaign with nothing more than a rulebook and module B2, and before any PCs hit level 2 I had enough plot seeds and ideas from the players to keep the campaign going for months.
I would argue that the whole POINT of old-school play is the emergent stuff. It might not always be as refined or consistent as a pre-plotted campaign designed by a skilled GM, but it belongs equally to the GM and all of the players, and in my experience the players find it far more engaging.
-
2015-07-08, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- new york city
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
that makes a lot of sense, where i grew up, well i started playing around 79-80. we started with the red basic book. played that for a while then moved up to Ad&d cause that is what the big kids played. while i am pretty sure many of us had a copy of expert rules, i don't remember anyone using it much less actually reading it. yea, it was common to use tables (out of the DMs guide) to roll for content while playing. we did that when every no one had any thing specific set up. which was fairly common.
when i say we moved to Ad&d at the time i had thought we where playing Ad&d, but looking back i can say definitively we where playing basic with the players handbook and monster manual bolted on. i don't remember us using much out of the DMs guide. except for the random tables in the back. this seemed to be extremely common for most of the 80s up until when i stopped playing around the early to mid 90s.Last edited by cucchulainnn; 2015-07-08 at 02:34 PM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Liechtenauer
It's hard to fight when there is a yard of steel stabbing you in your face.
-
2015-07-08, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Gender
-
2015-07-08, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Location
- Germany
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Now the 3rd edition and AD&D books are a lot bigger beasts than the Basic and Expert rules (and AD&D close to incomprehensible), but I know that of about 20 people I introduced to the game and I explained the rules, not a single one actually sat down at any point to read the whole 3rd ed. PHB
front to back. They look up feats and spells, and that's it. What they think the actual rules are is really what I told them the rules are. And given that OD&D spread basically by telephone game, I am sure there were huge amounts of completely wrong rules interpretations in circulation. Not that at the time many people seem to have been much concerned about how it was originally meant to work. Not even the guy who wrote those rules.
But 12 year old boys tend to have very different requirements for their entertainment than men in their 30s to 50s.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
-
2015-07-08, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
-
2015-07-08, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
- Location
- A Digital Forest
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Last edited by Digitalelf; 2015-07-08 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Grammar
"Its amazing how hostile people can get about an entirely optional campaign setting that they werent forced to play."
-Weasel Fierce (of Dragonsfoot)-
-
2015-07-08, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- new york city
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
no doubt about that.
when i started out there wasn't many parents playing, or even adults that i knew of. i started some time during junior high. the older crowd that played where mostly the high school kids. there were also a few counselors that DMed at the local boys club. they way it basically went down was, most of us either had a copy of the red book and we played that for a while. then some one got the players hand book so we subbed the classes and folded it into what we where already doing then got the monster manual. the last thing we go was the DMs guide but by that time we where already set in our ways. this was also about the same time that a lot of us where getting into high school and started playing with the older kids. seemed that they when through the same process.
game would brake out all over the place. on the bus going to or from school, in the school yard or library during recess, walking into a game at the boys club. i remember once playing while waiting on line for a movie, we didn't have dice so we flipped coins. of course by that time we all knew the rules we felt where important and could play from memory. for the most part if it was later found out that a rule was miss used no one really cared that much.
with all that said the it was mostly the older kids that taught a lot of us how to run campaigns and such. which was basically the world would generate as we played from the events that either current players are doing or previous player did or even possibly other player in the same DMs world are doing while they play at different times.Last edited by cucchulainnn; 2015-07-08 at 08:11 PM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Liechtenauer
It's hard to fight when there is a yard of steel stabbing you in your face.
-
2015-08-21, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
- Gender
-
2015-08-22, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Euphonistan
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Adding skills did not make players less creative though what it does do is that it makes many creative actions unlikely to have success unless you have that certain skill and the players will know it before hand. In previous editions you either gave them no idea so it was a complete gamble, you would tell them their relative chances depending on what factors you think count, or you would tell them to make an ability check (in older D&D) which tended to have at least a fair chance of success assuming you were decent in the ability score. This results in them asking you about these actions which is the key difference. In more modern versions of D&D they already know their chances most of the time and so there is little point of asking unless they know it will work but in older versions you had to ask to find out so the creativity was brought to your attention.
Those rules make asking less necessary and sadly in many cases make many creative answers less than effective.
-
2015-08-22, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Hardly. Certain creative uses that correspond to skills that the character is actually good at are vastly more accessible than they were prior to the implementation of skill systems, and while creative strategies that depend on characters doing something they suck at tend not to work so well, that has always been true, it just used to be based on an attribute.
I'm not a proponent of any of the later D&D skill systems, but skills in general have been in games for a good long time. GURPS is not exactly new, to pick one example. Creative problem solving taking into account character abilities has managed to remain just fine in plenty of modern systems.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
-
2015-08-22, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Euphonistan
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
The difference between success and failure with ability checks was around that sweet point where people felt like they had a reasonable chance at success especially since the DM got to choose how to modify the roll to enhance failure and success. This meant that people were potentially enticed to try it. If you have a skill system the system has to reward those with the skill and punish those without. That means trying random actions that you did not specifically take have much lower chances of success (especially the farther you go into the game) or are not allowed at all. Players that know that their chances are really terrible are not going to try the action and eventually will stop asking unless they are skilled in that area.
This can be seen by some as a good thing rewarding those who take skills that fit what they want their characters do however if you are the type that wants players to try actions and all actions skills will make that harder because they will then tend towards actions that they can succeed with.
As an example pre 3e many fighters could be the party face. The idea of being a noble warrior and thus would lead a platoon seemed to make a lot of sense. Depending on the DM ablity checks may not be required to talk to NPCs which would let anybody participate in a conversation and puts emphasis on what the players say (of course this can be seen as devaluing what the character could have said which is what a skill could represent). In 3e they lacked the skill to effectively speak to NPCs effectively which is why mid to late game any class without those skills would want those players to not talk in any situation where a skill check could come up because they could have a very difficult time making the check. Even if the player has a good idea it may be better to not say it because the player knows that success is not likely at that point. You can of course see the other side where some people like the idea that if a character is supposed to be a diplomat then he should have the skills to back that up mechanically (the other side would say that the DM could show that by keeping that in mind when deciding success).
Skills can open up certain avenues of creativity but it also closes others really you hve to decide what sort of things you want to be able to happen in your game heck that is why many AD&D games still do not use NWPs but many others do.
-
2015-08-22, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
I'm fine with skills or NWP representing things that require specialized training or professions, like rope making or fletching arrows, juggling or playing an instrument. General activities which all people should be able to attempt don't need skills or rolls normally, beyond reaction rolls and things specified by the abilities. Anyone could be a diplomat, enough charisma for a reaction bonus helps. Anyone can swim or jump or or hide behind a tree, and they shouldn't hesitate to do those things.
-
2015-08-23, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Sure, and in post 3e games that weren't D&D 3e the exact same dynamic exists. The problem wasn't adding skills, the problem was that 3e added skills poorly. Take GURPS, a game as skill based as they get - someone who is both a capable combatant and general party face makes plenty of sense and is easy to implement. It's also easy to implement someone who is a capable combatant, but who for whatever reason isn't great with leadership. Or you could have a capable combatant who isn't the party face for most things, but who are generally silver tongued and can work wonders in settings with tightly defined etiquette or that need lots of lying.
Like I said, I'm not a proponent of any edition of D&D's skill system. I've just seen enough skill based systems close absolutely no avenues of creativity that I don't buy that as a consequence of a well designed skill system.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
-
2015-08-23, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Euphonistan
- Gender
-
2015-08-25, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Carried the light source. Took cover, then threw daggers, darts or flaming oil. Saved my Sleep spell for the big fight, or used my Charm Person to get us extra muscle and info early in the adventure. Scouted with my familiar (who also buffed my hit points). Roleplayed the smart, knowledgeable guy who could figure out puzzles and talk to strange things. After the adventure, cast Detect Magic to help ID loot. (Identify generally wasn't viable at first level.)
I've played a lot of first level Magic-Users over the years.
And one last note. While 1st level MUs in AD&D could only memorize one spell per day, they started the game knowing four, including Read Magic.Last edited by runeghost; 2015-08-25 at 06:31 AM.
-
2015-08-25, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- Goiás, Brazil
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
In my gaming group we usually expanded a little the scope of non weapon proficiencies.
Herbalism and Alchemy skills meant your first level wizards could make poisons, or quite often hallucinogens and laxatives that with a little help from the party thief were almost as good for disposing enemies.
Specially if you also had cooking and brewing as skills, because most cheap and effective things often demanded being ingested.
Alchemy also allowed to gather some money by getting magically relevant parts from monsters.
Engineering was quite good too. Used to map building interiors, design secret compartments on chests, dismantle and loot disarmed traps.
Once we got the Cantrip non weapon proficiency from a Dragon Magazine article called "small wishes", things became way more interesting.Last edited by Slayn82; 2015-08-25 at 08:50 PM.
-
2015-08-28, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
-
2015-08-28, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Location
- Sharangar's Revenge
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
-
2015-08-28, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
-
2015-08-29, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- 30.2672° N, 97.7431° W
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
"Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
- L. Long
I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.
"A plucky band of renegade short-order cooks fighting the Empire with the power of cheap, delicious food and a side order of whup-ass."
-
2015-09-02, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
I didn't throw darts, daggers AND flaming oil all at the same time either, but I absolutely did them throw them all as a first level MU at some point.
And, as other have pointed out, carrying a lantern attached to an 8' pole (10' poles are too unwieldy in most dungeons, unless they're collapsible), usually via a metal ring or hook, absolutely lets you provide light while still taking cover behind doors, chests, overturned tables (one of the more common sources of cover), other PCs, and the dead bodies of enemies (if there are enough dead PC bodies to provide cover, the 1st level MU is probably better off leveraging his 12" unencumbered move and running away - while following the map he's been keeping and has memorized - you did have the smart guy who doesn't do combat map, right?)
-
2015-09-02, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2015
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
In Old School, they weren't. Well, they were no more exceptional than any other homeless bum. Yeah, a 1st-level Fighter was a 'veteran' - but not the Hollywood Spec Ops Badass-type of veteran, and instead more the 'struggling to make ends meet after getting shafted by the incompetence of the VA"
You wouldn't write a book or make a movie about an average person with an average life. By deciding to make the book or movie about this person, you already determined that this person is going to have an experience worth telling about. If you set up and play in a campaign, I think it should also be about people who are somehow extraordinary. Why bother playing a group of people who might be one of the 1% who accomplish something big, but also might not.
Though that's indeed just one of several valid default assumption of what a fantasy adventure RPG is.
The D&D you are familiar with is NOTHING like the D&D from the 70s and 80s. Now, you start with a character that can hold their own. Now, you are expected to have a background and personality for your character. And possibly most importantly, now you're entitled to a full 20-25% of the spotlight time (4-5 player characters). In OD&D... you were lucky if you were 5% of the game.Last edited by Hawkstar; 2015-09-02 at 07:33 AM.
-
2015-09-02, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Location
- Sharangar's Revenge
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Actually, you can bring a 10’ pole into a 5’ wide dungeon and get it around corners without difficulty. Heck, you can get a 14’ pole around a 90-degree corner without even using three dimensions! And a 15’ pole around a similar corner if the tunnel height is at least 5’. If it's 10' tall, you can bring a 17' pole. So a 10' pole should not cause issues.
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
-
2015-09-02, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Location
- NJ
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
And the proliferation of 10' poles caused the counter-proliferation of 11' diameter radius effect traps. MAD for sure.
Being exceptionally evil and angry at a particular player, as a DM, I invented a trap series by a rather clever magic-user from way back that were still used from time to time that were semi-smart: just smart enough to figure out if somebody was poking at it with their finger or a stick and react accordingly. Specifically, if with a finger, a standard 10' diameter effect. If with a pole, then the effect was actually from 11' - 20' diameter with a "clear zone" in the middle.
Basically, an old wizard who got cheesed off after one too many times being looted by adventuring thieves.
My players hated me the first time they encountered them. Now, they think they're just great fun and are trying to figure out ways around them.It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.
-
2015-09-02, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Location
- Sharangar's Revenge
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
-
2015-09-02, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Location
- NJ
- Gender
-
2015-09-04, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2015
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Firstly, you're talking about an edition that was like 75% exploration and 25% combat. You were much more engaged as a Player than as a Character. Even xp came predominantly from treasure. Smart parties didn't fight at all or only when forced to - risking your lives against a few 10xp orcs just isn't worth it if you can talk or sneak past them and get ahold of that chest full of 1000xp worth of gold.
Secondly, while todays Wizards can be considered "blasters" pinging away with endless little shots, early edition casters were heavy artillery. Magic Missile was an auto-kill, Sleep was an instant encounter-ender, Fireball reduced hordes of 16hp ogres to clouds of fine ash, etc.
My favorite tactic as a 1st level MU was to cast charm on the first tough guy we met in the dungeon - saves against spells were next to impossible and charm lasts about a month. Instant meat shield. At 2nd level you pick up sleep to clear out a dozen goblins at once. By the time your pointy-hat 1E wizard is 6th or 7th level, everyone is in constant terror of him lol.
-
2015-09-04, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Location
- Wisconsin, USA
- Gender
Re: What have 1st level wizards ever done for us?
Yes, they did their best to get rid of the heavy artillery bit. Not sure how well they succeeded, but ....
Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark