Readied actions outside of combat

[Venger]

No, but it might be courteous to at least explain what that has to do with anything. Is that some kind of euphemism?

euphemism?

sure, happy to help. it's a well-known trick/joke when it comes to effects that only last during initiative or a combat.

a badger that gets hurt flies into a rage until it or its opponent is dead. since his rage is up and he's uncontrollably trying to kill you, the combat last indefinitely.

so what you do is jam the badger in a cage or sack, poke him with a stick, get him raging, and then do whatever initiative -dependent things you wanted to do (such as ready) it's okay since you're in a combat with him.

(this is a joke, people don't do this in real games)

[Talakeal]

Ignoring the fact that you're once again bringing a gun to a sword fight, the problem with this scenario is that nobody can possibly maintain a state of alert readiness at all times for an entire night. Even if you don't require rest and thus cannot suffer from fatigue, eventually your mind will begin to wander and you'll lose focus. Even somebody who is actively standing guard has to make Spot and Listen checks or risk being caught unaware, and you have to understand the difference between suspecting that someone is there and knowing someone is there.

No matter what, there are only four possibilities in the rules for what happens when Waiting Guy and the Intruder meet:

• Both Waiting Guy and Intruder know for sure that the other is just on the other side of the door. Neither one is surprised. Roll initiative to determine who's readiness was really higher.
• Neither Waiting Guy nor the Intruder have detected each other, even though the Intruder is specifically looking for someone and Waiting Guy is just waiting around for an intruder. Neither one is surprised (or, I suppose you could say, both of them are surprised, but the point is that neither one gets a Surprise Round). Roll initiative to determine who reacts faster.
• Waiting Guy, despite doing nothing but waiting for somebody to come through the door, wasn't attentive enough to see or hear the sneaky Intruder coming, while simultaneously being careless enough to give away his own position. The Intruder barges in suddenly and catches Waiting Guy by surprise.
• Waiting Guy hears or otherwise senses that the Intruder is just outside, but he's holding still and being quiet and Intruder hasn't located him yet. Waiting Guy gets a Surprise Round and you get your readied action. This is the only scenario where Waiting Guy's plan to wait all night actually pays off.

That's it. Those are the possible results according to D&D's rules of initiative and starting combat, and to be honest, they seem to me like a perfectly reasonable and (dare I say it) realistic set of outcomes.



Now, if you want to come up with yet another edge case or unlikely scenario to try to thwart the game's rules, you're perfectly free to do so. Just be aware that you'd be arguing that the beginning of any fight between any two people under any circumstances doesn't immediately boil down to one of the four scenarios listed above. And, if that's the case, then nothing else I can possibly say will have any meaning to you.

Either way, I hope my posts in this thread have been informative or enlightening to anyone who bothers to read my many lengthy, overly-wordy paragraphs. And to all of you, I wish you the best.

Replace shotgun with crossbow if you like, it works equally well in this situation.

I guess what I cant wrap my head around is at the game lacks the granularity to distinguish between waiting there with your weapon pointed at the door and finger on the trigger and, say, bursting in with no warning while the guy is eating dinner with his weapon still in the holster.

I get that this is RAW, but it hust seems stange for such a crunchy and tactical game to just ignore so many factors.

[Susano-wo]

no it's not. you have been arguing that the things should conform to real-world physics because they do not make narrative sense.

Oh for pete's sake. Never underestimate the internet, or people on it, to miss subtext. I thought the winking face was sufficient, but..it was a tongue in cheek way of saying that I find your basic assumptions as weird as you find mine.

While you may feel that way, the rules are quite clear about how falling damage works. you can never take more than 120 damage from falling. it is against the rules.

Sure you can. Rule 0 is a thing.

Nope. you said that. here's you saying it.

everyone can see it. I don't get why you'd lie about that.

Wow, again with the ridiculous hyperbole and assigning motivations. I'm not lying. even if you were right that I made that claim, I wouldn't necessarily be lying. Again, why would someone lie about a previous post in a thread? But you aren't right, so let, once again, attempt to make this perfectly clear: The so called "Guy at the Gym Fallacy" as a concept is not necessarily fallacious. It simply starts from a different conceptual point. A point I personally disagree with, but that does not make it a fallacy. What I claimed was, and a poor, pedantic reading of my posts does not change this, that the term Guy at the Gym to describe the position that the "fallacy" describes is a straw man of that position.

So once again, the term Guy at the Gym? strawman. The concept that DnD characters are superheroes who should have to in no way follow the physical laws that govern 'our world.' Not fallacious.

"I'm sorry you were offended." nice apology there.

how is "I assumed you were too stupid to know what words meant" not condescending to you?

Oh. My. God. I didn't say that. I did. not. say. that. this is exactly what I am talking about! You turn words around to fit your "refutation." You used the word wrong. Fact( a fact you acknowledged when you admitted to knowing what a fallacy is). This made me think you were mistaken about the word and I tried to clarify definitions so we could have an understanding. If that made you feel stupid, well, that's not on me. I didn't make you use a word in a way contrary to its definition.

It wasn't an apology, and I'm not sorry you are offended. Get offended if you like, I don't care. I was merely (noticing a pattern here?) clarifying.

And the rest of your arguments basically boil down to either not knowing, or willfully ignoring what words mean, combined with restating what you think my points actually mean rather than addressing them, so yeah, I'm done. subject dropped.

(Or maybe this is another one of those English-like languages with false-cognates i've heard so much about...hmm.)

@ Talakeal: Its basically because the combat game starts when initiative starts, which causes some hiccups in certain situations. Also, because the granularity to determine second by second readiness and all the factors that go into a scene in real time would be maddening to try to simulate in a pen and paper RPG. You would basically need a computer and exact, moment to moment control of the characters involved to really simulate that. In other word,s a video game

[shaikujin]

Just a couple random thoughts while reading the thread.


There are actually several types of guns in standard (non-modern) DnD. I believe FR has a few blackpowder muskets or flintlocks.

DMG has rifles and even lasers (but it's meant for modern settings).

There's also a Kobold holding a shotgun (in one of the Dragon magazines I think). The shotgun is considered an artifact though.



As for readying an action outside combat, there are indeed no rules for this.

Which brings up a question, how does a character cast spells that require 1 standard action outside of combat?

In my group, we simply treat it as 6 seconds if we need to even keep track of it. I'd like to hear if that's the way it's handled in your gaming tables as well. Or are there times where you had to break up each 24 hour day into 14400 rounds?



Note to OP, if your character is allowed to ready an action, that would also mean the DM's NPC is also allowed to ready an action. And he can start doing that for ALL the NPCS you start encountering.



Next random thought I had -

DMG (pg 23/24) has rules on newcomers joining an existing combat and how to deal with the initiative, surprise rounds etc based on whether they are aware.

So, here's some super cheesy shenanigans just to see how we can ready an action (NOT meant for actual play, because the DM can do this much better than players):

Rather than a raging badger (which will mess with initiators refreshing maneuvers if I don't calm the critter down somehow), I hide a couple of fine-sized intelligent skip rocks (with the flying WSA, so they are now animated objects/constructs) inside my helmet's visor.

Have them start combat (but not actually attack), they roll initiative as does my character.

End and restart combat until my character rolls max on initiative. Then don't exit combat to keep that initiative roll :)

Have the constructs continuously ready an action to do something (aid me in spot checks maybe) each round. Constructs should be able to tirelessly maintain combat throughout the day, until I tell them to end combat. As long as my character is in combat, he can ready an action.

End combat to refresh maneuvers if required or sleep etc, then redo combat initiation again for best init rolls.

Any rules expert to see if the above actually works?



Taking this further, since the constructs are hidden in my character's visor, only he can see them in combat. Anyone else that come across my character will not see the constructs in combat. Not sure if this can be abused further with the DMG rules I mentioned above.

I'll see if I can work out how to apply initiatives and surprise rounds.

[Keltest]

Replace shotgun with crossbow if you like, it works equally well in this situation.

I guess what I cant wrap my head around is at the game lacks the granularity to distinguish between waiting there with your weapon pointed at the door and finger on the trigger and, say, bursting in with no warning while the guy is eating dinner with his weapon still in the holster.

I get that this is RAW, but it hust seems stange for such a crunchy and tactical game to just ignore so many factors.

It doesn't ignore them. Youre just overestimating the abilities of the average person to sit there, fully alert for the tiniest hint of action outside of his door. Even if he is sitting there waiting for precisely that to happen, he can still be startled by someone slamming open his door if he wasn't paying attention at that particular moment.

If both sides are equally aware of the other's presence before that door opens, youre testing their ability to act before the other, which is initiative. If they aren't equally aware, then one party is going to be surprised by the ambush, and its a surprise round.

Now, if your gunman had any sense at all, he would have rigged the door to pull the trigger on the gun as a result of it opening. Suddenly it isn't a readied action, but the other guys triggering a (very dangerous) trap, which the game also has rules for but is a lot closer to consistently providing you the outcome you seem to want.

[Earthwalker]

Replace shotgun with crossbow if you like, it works equally well in this situation.

I guess what I cant wrap my head around is at the game lacks the granularity to distinguish between waiting there with your weapon pointed at the door and finger on the trigger and, say, bursting in with no warning while the guy is eating dinner with his weapon still in the holster.

I get that this is RAW, but it hust seems stange for such a crunchy and tactical game to just ignore so many factors.

The guy with the crossbow pointed at the door has a massive advantage over the guy eating his diner.

Guy with crossbow. Gets perception tests to notice the door, I would imagine with a bonus or at least with no penalty and seeing a door handle move is a simple DC. When the door opens he gets a standard action (surprise round) it means he can fire his loaded cross bow and hit first.

The guy sat eating his dinner has a penalty on the perception test. He is distracted. Even if he notices he gets a standard action. To what ? Stand up and look dumbfounded. Maybe pick up a loaded crossbow but he can't fire it.

Setting yourself up ready does make a difference it is in the system as a surprise round. Not as holding your action out of combat.

Of all the problems in DnD this isn't one of them, and allowing people to hold actions out of combat just makes the game more stupid.

[Venger]

The guy with the crossbow pointed at the door has a massive advantage over the guy eating his diner.

Guy with crossbow. Gets perception tests to notice the door, I would imagine with a bonus or at least with no penalty and seeing a door handle move is a simple DC. When the door opens he gets a standard action (surprise round) it means he can fire his loaded cross bow and hit first.

The guy sat eating his dinner has a penalty on the perception test. He is distracted. Even if he notices he gets a standard action. To what ? Stand up and look dumbfounded. Maybe pick up a loaded crossbow but he can't fire it.

Setting yourself up ready does make a difference it is in the system as a surprise round. Not as holding your action out of combat.

Of all the problems in DnD this isn't one of them, and allowing people to hold actions out of combat just makes the game more stupid.

If the guy eating is also considered aware during his surprise round, then who would be considered unaware during one?

[KillianHawkeye]

The guy with the crossbow pointed at the door has a massive advantage over the guy eating his diner.

Guy with crossbow. Gets perception tests to notice the door, I would imagine with a bonus or at least with no penalty and seeing a door handle move is a simple DC. When the door opens he gets a standard action (surprise round) it means he can fire his loaded cross bow and hit first.

The guy sat eating his dinner has a penalty on the perception test. He is distracted. Even if he notices he gets a standard action. To what ? Stand up and look dumbfounded. Maybe pick up a loaded crossbow but he can't fire it.

Setting yourself up ready does make a difference it is in the system as a surprise round. Not as holding your action out of combat.

Of all the problems in DnD this isn't one of them, and allowing people to hold actions out of combat just makes the game more stupid.

Yes, this. Exactly this!

The advantage of keeping watch with a weapon in hand isn't to have a readied action available at all times, it's that you are more ready and less distracted if something does happen.

Also, Talakeal, it is well within a DM's power to give a circumstance bonus on the initiative check to a character if they're holding something as quick and easy to use as a gun or a loaded crossbow in order to represent how much less time and physical effort it takes compared to a weapon that you need to swing or draw or throw. I'm not at all convinced that that's necessary, but hopefully it is enough to alleviate your concerns, and it even has the benefit of being simple and unlikely to cause unintended consequences.

[Venger]

Yes, this. Exactly this!

The advantage of keeping watch with a weapon in hand isn't to have a readied action available at all times, it's that you are more ready and less distracted if something does happen.

Also, Talakeal, it is well within a DM's power to give a circumstance bonus on the initiative check to a character if they're holding something as quick and easy to use as a gun or a loaded crossbow in order to represent how much less time and physical effort it takes compared to a weapon that you need to swing or draw or throw. I'm not at all convinced that that's necessary, but hopefully it is enough to alleviate your concerns, and it even has the benefit of being simple and unlikely to cause unintended consequences.

But in most combats, won't everyone be holding their weapons? if it's something that everyone would get then not using it has the same effect

[KillianHawkeye]

But in most combats, won't everyone be holding their weapons? if it's something that everyone would get then not using it has the same effect

Maybe, maybe not. That's a complicated question with many possible answers. Not all combats take place in a dungeon where everyone is expecting danger. Sometimes an assassin strikes during the royal ball, or an evil adventuring party plane shifts into somebody's celestial love shack (as a totally original*, random* example).

* Examples not guaranteed to actually be original or random.

[Earthwalker]

If the guy eating is also considered aware during his surprise round, then who would be considered unaware during one?

I would say he still gets a chance. He certainly isn't automatically aware. He has a chance to hear the people breaking into his home. Of course most likely if he is sat eating the guys kicking open the door are the only people acting in the surprise round. What I was saying was even if he got a chance to act he would be out of luck compared to someone sat waiting watching the door.

But in most combats, won't everyone be holding their weapons? if it's something that everyone would get then not using it has the same effect

Yeah in normal combat use imitative rules, both sides are aware of each other and they act by who is fastest.
Oddly I really don't understand this comment its probably just me.

[Venger]

I would say he still gets a chance. He certainly isn't automatically aware. He has a chance to hear the people breaking into his home. Of course most likely if he is sat eating the guys kicking open the door are the only people acting in the surprise round. What I was saying was even if he got a chance to act he would be out of luck compared to someone sat waiting watching the door.



Yeah in normal combat use imitative rules, both sides are aware of each other and they act by who is fastest.
Oddly I really don't understand this comment its probably just me.

Makes sense to me. So he'd get a listen or something and if he failed be unaware but if he passed he could act.

Sorry, I could've been clearer . lemme rephrase:

Since initiative is relative, if everyone got the same numerical Bonus their order would not change so that bonus would not actually change anything

Is that better?

As mentioned this does assume people are mostly aware during combat such as in a dungeon crawl rather than a more intrigue based game where combat will often catch you unaware. If you were playing that sort of game I could understand the idea but still would not really recommend the rule

Characters without weapons are already at a disadvantage And will probably use part of their trim drawing them. It seems unnecessary to penalize them twice.