Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

[Blackhawk748]

I've had difficulty even READING the Lexicanum. "Congratulations, You Won" malware scams seem to butt in with alarming frequency when I try to read articles on there.

That's weird as I have never had that happen to me.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It seems to be working properly now.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Something I've been wondering: I remember hearing someplace that while it IS rare, there HAVE been Bretonnian peasants who were knighted. This is played for laughs, though, since said ennobled peasants either died shortly after being knighted, or even posthumously, or were taken out by born nobles who were offended by the ennobling, plus their kids were still considered peasants, so it doesn't make any difference.

My question is this: could a peasant who gets knighted for some act of great valor, assuming they are tenacious and wise enough to survive their new profession, become a Grail Knight if they tried really hard? The official rules in WHFRP 2e state that only male Bretonnian nobles can take the various knightly careers, while peasants have to disguise themselves, but can't become Grail Knights because the Lady isn't fooled by disguises. But what about a peasant who is elevated to knighthood? They're not PRETENDING to be a knight, but at the same time, it would make sense with what's already in the lore for such a knight to only ever to make Questing Knight, and then would basically be stuck there until dying of old age, the Lady never appearing for them no matter how chivalrous they may be, because of the circumstances of their birth.

What say you folks? I've always enjoyed stories about average Joes being knighted and rising to the occasion, and roleplaying the story of the first Grail Knight to ever come from peasant stock would be pretty cool. And what would happen for their kids? Would the rules that the children of peasants are still peasants even if knighted, or could such a character go "Screw that law, I'm a Grail Knight! Are you going to argue with one of the Lady's chosen?"

[bluntpencil]

Something I've been wondering: I remember hearing someplace that while it IS rare, there HAVE been Bretonnian peasants who were knighted. This is played for laughs, though, since said ennobled peasants either died shortly after being knighted, or even posthumously, or were taken out by born nobles who were offended by the ennobling, plus their kids were still considered peasants, so it doesn't make any difference.

My question is this: could a peasant who gets knighted for some act of great valor, assuming they are tenacious and wise enough to survive their new profession, become a Grail Knight if they tried really hard? The official rules in WHFRP 2e state that only male Bretonnian nobles can take the various knightly careers, while peasants have to disguise themselves, but can't become Grail Knights because the Lady isn't fooled by disguises. But what about a peasant who is elevated to knighthood? They're not PRETENDING to be a knight, but at the same time, it would make sense with what's already in the lore for such a knight to only ever to make Questing Knight, and then would basically be stuck there until dying of old age, the Lady never appearing for them no matter how chivalrous they may be, because of the circumstances of their birth.

What say you folks? I've always enjoyed stories about average Joes being knighted and rising to the occasion, and roleplaying the story of the first Grail Knight to ever come from peasant stock would be pretty cool. And what would happen for their kids? Would the rules that the children of peasants are still peasants even if knighted, or could such a character go "Screw that law, I'm a Grail Knight! Are you going to argue with one of the Lady's chosen?"

They could increase in rank, yes.

However, their children would not be noble. Their children would still be peasants. They need 3 generations of nobility in order to have it passed on.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So...is that law effectively a way to neuter any ennobled peasants forming a new noble house? Or does it mean that basically their kids and grandkids would have to be equally awesome in order for the ennoblement to stick?

[bluntpencil]

So...is that law effectively a way to neuter any ennobled peasants forming a new noble house? Or does it mean that basically their kids and grandkids would have to be equally awesome in order for the ennoblement to stick?

Yes, and yes.

[RagingBluMunky]

Sounds like a great character hook, though. Your father and grandfather both earned knighthoods, now it is your turn to earn yours, and create a new Noble family. Of course, many of your potential peers would not take kindly to a peasant being elevated to their ranks, and may sabotage your efforts.

[LCP]

Seems like it'd be quite unlikely for an ennobled peasant to take up the grail quest. The Lady of the Lake stuff is pretty much a religion reserved for the nobility, with most of the peasantry paying much more heed to gods like Taal, Rhya and Shallya that deal with matters relevant to them.

Obviously to become a knight you have to swear the vows, and you'd have to put on a good show of believing in the Lady to have any chance of fitting in and maintaining your position, but I'd think that on average ennobled peasants would be a fair bit less pious about the Lady of the Lake than born noblemen.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Unless they were something like a Grail Pilgrim before they got knighted.

My understanding is the whole point of being a Grail Pilgrim is that they believe following and serving a Grail Knight is the only way a peasant could possibly gain favor with the Lady.

[bluntpencil]

Sounds like a great character hook, though. Your father and grandfather both earned knighthoods, now it is your turn to earn yours, and create a new Noble family. Of course, many of your potential peers would not take kindly to a peasant being elevated to their ranks, and may sabotage your efforts.

Pretty cool, although in the entire history of Bretonnia, only three peasants have been knighted. One died in his first battle, too.

[RagingBluMunky]

Pretty cool, although in the entire history of Bretonnia, only three peasants have been knighted. One died in his first battle, too.

A minor detail, I'm sure. Seriously though, it makes for a good story, so I personally would allow it. There could also be good reasons for it to not be recorded. Such as: It happened long enough ago that no one renembers. The new Noble house rewrote their history, erasing the fact that they used to be peasants. This happened in a province so minor no one really cares. This happened in a province that has since been destroyed, losing the records. The newly Noble family we're granted the name and insignia of a destroyed family, making its history their History.

Note: I'm not in any way saying you are wrong, bluntpencil, just offering options for people who may want to pursue this.

Aside: Are men-at-arms and yeomen considered peasants for the purposes of this discussion?

[bluntpencil]

Aside: Are men-at-arms and yeomen considered peasants for the purposes of this discussion?

Yup. If you're not a noble, you're a peasant. Unless you're a Damsel of the Lady. Or foreign. They're different.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The newly Noble family we're granted the name and insignia of a destroyed family, making its history their History.

This option is kinda like how they did it in "A Knight's Tale," where the Prince of Wales straight up tells the crowd that the peasant protagonist comes from a previously unknown noble family and that he's TOTALLY not making it up to justify making him an official knight, and if they disagree, well...that'd be treason!

[comicshorse]

It's good to be the Prince

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It is even better TO BE THE KING!

Speaking of which, had another question about Bretonnian politics: Does Bretonnia's capital change depending on which Duke becomes Royarch (so if Louen Leoncoeur were to die heirless, and, say, Duke Alberic was chosen as the new king, Bordeleaux would become Bretonnia's new capital, for example), or is it fixed at Couronne for political expediency or something? Gilles le Breton's seat of power was Bastonne, but it clearly doesn't hold the same socio-political value that, say, Altdorf does for the Empire, given Louen rules from his own ancestral domain rather than moving to Bastonne after his coronation.

[comicshorse]

I'm not sure the answer to this has ever been made clear in fluff, so I'll just give my own thoughts on the matter.

I'd say the Capital would remain the same. Ruling a Kingdom, even a medieval one, requires bureaucracy and records. So moving the Capital would require shifting them, and the people who maintain them and their families which would be a huge pain and a massive disruption to their vital task of getting you tax money. Or even worse involve putting somebody else in charge of them.

There's also the prestige factor. The Capital is where the King lives, if you occupy it its a constant reminder that you're the King. that you worship in the most important Temples, you live in the Palace, you are seen by the most important citizens in Royal glory.

Finally I'd say any King who chooses to remain in their own Dukedom is sending entirely the wrong message. It suggests they are too fearful to abandon their base of power, that their hold on the Kingdom is so weak they don't dare leave their home. All the kind of thoughts you don't want power hungry Nobles having about you

[Wraith]

In the Real Life equivalent to Bretonnia the King would formally move to the capital city and incorporate his Ducal Coat of Arms into his new royal heraldry, as a reminder that it's still his. He would still BE the Duke, but the title of King supersedes all others so that's what he'd be referred to as even though both were true.

He wouldn't necessarily live in either place, though; medieval royalty had a traditional habit of touring their country for years at a time, spending anything from a few days to several months as guests of a ducal or other noble families. To have the King in residence was considered a huge show of social and political favour, but also a tremendous burden; if the King and his entire entourage were going to stay over for 6 months, it was your responsibility to be a good host, holding feasts and entertainment every night for as long as you had to. More than a few nobles were bankrupted by the practice.

When the King finally moved on, it would usually be to another host, or to any number of his own residences across the land. The royal family literally moved between summer/winter castles every so often, as a way of cutting down on the cost of upkeep of his own estates.... Not to mention, showing favour and granting influence to political allies while also being a deliberate financial burden and ever-present undermining authority upon those of which he was not so fond.

Given the Bretonnian King's requirement to continually uphold chivalric tradition and to protect his realm from literal invaders, it could be easily assumed that he might combine this sort of military campaigning with the touring of his lands simply as a practical measure; if you needed the King to come and defend you, at the very least you would host him in your castle at your own expense. It's only polite, after all.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In the Real Life equivalent to Bretonnia the King would formally move to the capital city and incorporate his Ducal Coat of Arms into his new royal heraldry, as a reminder that it's still his. He would still BE the Duke, but the title of King supersedes all others so that's what he'd be referred to as even though both were true.

He wouldn't necessarily live in either place, though; medieval royalty had a traditional habit of touring their country for years at a time, spending anything from a few days to several months as guests of a ducal or other noble families. To have the King in residence was considered a huge show of social and political favour, but also a tremendous burden; if the King and his entire entourage were going to stay over for 6 months, it was your responsibility to be a good host, holding feasts and entertainment every night for as long as you had to. More than a few nobles were bankrupted by the practice.

When the King finally moved on, it would usually be to another host, or to any number of his own residences across the land. The royal family literally moved between summer/winter castles every so often, as a way of cutting down on the cost of upkeep of his own estates.... Not to mention, showing favour and granting influence to political allies while also being a deliberate financial burden and ever-present undermining authority upon those of which he was not so fond.

Given the Bretonnian King's requirement to continually uphold chivalric tradition and to protect his realm from literal invaders, it could be easily assumed that he might combine this sort of military campaigning with the touring of his lands simply as a practical measure; if you needed the King to come and defend you, at the very least you would host him in your castle at your own expense. It's only polite, after all.

Right, that historical stuff was what was on my mind when I thought of this question, though I wasn't sure how it specifically worked. So, if that were the case in Bretonnia, why is Couronne its capital instead of Bastonne, where the kingdom was "founded?" It'd be like if the Empire was founded at Altdorf but then the actual capital was Nuln or Middenheim! The only answer I can think of is that it's because Louen Leoncoeur is Couronne's Duke as well as King, and GW didn't really do much research into how the courts of medieval kings actually functioned.

[LCP]

The capital of the Empire *has* been changed by past Emperors at least once IIRC. Historical connotations are all well and good but usually you want to have your capital where the present-day wealth and power is.

[comicshorse]

I'm pretty sure Nuln has been the Empire's Capital at some point

[bluntpencil]

I'm pretty sure Nuln has been the Empire's Capital at some point

Numerous cities have been the capital of the Empire, which is made possible by its lack of centralisation. The Empire, and I assume Bretonnia, does not need the capital to be in the same place all of the time - the capital doesn't really do much - the local rulers are free to do as they please.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see! Thank you all for the information!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Got another question, this one technical: if you're playing a spellcasting priest, you don't actually gain spells until you're in the actual Priest career, right? Initiates don't have spells?

[comicshorse]

Got another question, this one technical: if you're playing a spellcasting priest, you don't actually gain spells until you're in the actual Priest career, right? Initiates don't have spells?

Yep. Initiates don't get to cast spells, only when you have the Petty Magic (Divine) Talent which you get with Priest are you able to start casting spells.

( Though Initiates can get the 'Warrior Born' Talent and I am looking forward to the debate with my GM when my Halfling would-be Priest of Ranald wants to buy it )

[GiantFlyingHog]

The Dark Heresy 2e rulebook "Enemies Beyond" introduces Santic Daemonology, and with it, the Purge Soul psychic power, which does damage determined in part by the enemy's corruption points. The problem is, none of the enemies listed in any of the books seem to have corruption points. Am I missing something?

[JellyPooga]

The Dark Heresy 2e rulebook "Enemies Beyond" introduces Santic Daemonology, and with it, the Purge Soul psychic power, which does damage determined in part by the enemy's corruption points. The problem is, none of the enemies listed in any of the books seem to have corruption points. Am I missing something?

I'm AFB, but isn't there a rule somewhere about daemons having CP equivalent to their Daemonic rating x10 or soemthing? You can probably do similar calculations for anyone with mutations, or as GM you can always assign an arbitrary number based on how corrupted you feel they should be; your run-of-the-mill cultists will have less than a full fledged Sorcerer, for example.

[Blackhawk748]

I used a bunch of mutants last night and i assigned the Troops a Corruption of 20ish, the sergeants 30ish and anyone actually in charge 40+. Of course Psykers and those blessed by the Gods would be higher.

On that note, why im here. Last night in my Rogue Trader game (using Dark Heresy 2 rules for most everything) the PCs led a battle against a horde of mutants on a feral world. Them and the tribals they led did fairly good, but now they find themselves in a perpetual sulfuric acid storm at the foot of a semi active volcano surrounded by a highly toxic swamp filled with horrid predators called Blood Boilers. This is where the army of mutants came from (they are Nurgle followers primarily). We ended the session just as they where flying in and now i need ideas for what is in the mutants fortress or where it is. I mean, the volcano is rather obvious, but does anyone have any neat ideas for what to do?

Oh and the Mutants are basically a WHF Beastmen army, complete with budget Dragon Ogres.

[comicshorse]

Oh choices, choices !
The Volcano is cool and offers lots of opportunities for traps where rocks can drop on the P.C.s heads, fights over pits of boiling lava and all sorts of James Bond style fun BUT the swamp is just too Nurgle to resist. Decay, polluted water, rotten, unnatural plants, Swamp fever. Its perfect Nurgle territory.

So have both.

The P.C.s will see a bunch of the defeated mutants streaming up the side of the volcano. There will be yells of 'Fall back to the base' and mutants gesture wildly and point up the volcano. Lay it on just that bit too much. Give the P.C.s a chance to figure that they are being lured into a trap. Also if they stop and check for tracks they should see only a small number of mutants went up the volcano, the larger force headed into the swamp.

If the fall for the trap they will have mutants sniping and dropping rocks on them at them on the way up. Even a prepared mini avalanche to sweep them away.
The end bit varies. If you are running the effects of electricity on Dragon Ogres as in WFRP then eventually the P.C.s will be drawn into a cave where the last of the Mutants are holed up. In it is also a bunch of sleeping Dragon Ogres, each wired up to a generator. With a mad cackle the lead mutant will throw the switch and electricity will surge into the sleeping Dragon Ogres throwing them into a super charged frenzy of violence.
The Dragon Ogres will attack everything in sight (including the mutants and each other) which should give the P.C.s a chance to pull a fighting retreat and just get heavily mauled.
Or you can just have the last trap be a crude but powerful bomb. This was taken by the mutants from the last advanced traveller that landed on this hell hole. As the mutants have no experience with explosives they'll detonate it too early to kill the P.C.s but will knock them about. Then all the P.C.s have to do is get down the volcano before the eruption started by the bomb actually happens !

If the P.C.s go into the swamp the path will be riddled with nasty booby traps. Pit traps, deadfalls, pungee sticks smeared with mutant excrement. Not to mention the foul and ......altered wildlife. Poisonous snakes will strike from the foliage, mutant alligators will try to drag people under the swamp water and the P.C.s should observe from one unfortunate native that the swamp water is deadly poison.
Eventually the P.C.s should corner the last of the mutants in a glade dedicated to Nurgle where, along with the Nurgle Cleric, who is their leader they can put the Cult to its deserved end


P.S.
If you are a movie fan you might check out Walter Hill's film 'Southern Comfort' for some ideas about what being hunted through a swamp by locals who know the area like the back of their hand would be like

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I got a history question about the setting after listening to this AWESOME "Warhammerized" cover of Sabaton's "Carolus Rex."

During the Great War Against Chaos, did Magnus the Pious wield Ghal Maraz? Magnus was crowned Emperor AFTER the War was over, but he WAS the only leader able to get the Empire's sh*t together, so it stands to reason that the Elector Counts might have given it to him to use against the enemy the way, at least in the Storm of Chaos timeline, Karl Franz gave Ghal Maraz to Valten while still ruling as Emperor and allowing Valten to go kick a** in Sigmar's name. Of course, there's also the possibility that Ghal Maraz simply wasn't there, given they're not sure if the Dwarfs took it back and there was only a ceremonial replica in storage or something until Karl Franz showed up and apparently DID receive the genuine article. And if Magnus DIDN'T have Ghal Maraz during the War, then what weapon DID he use?

[comicshorse]

I'm not sure if Magnus would have access to Ghal Maraz but I believe he was from Nuln so he might have been given the Runefang of the Elector Counts of Wissenland to carry into battle.
Though as I remember the Runefang's powers are mainly against Orcs and so of limited use in a war against the forces of Chaos.