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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Read the title, Hawkstar. People in fantasy games don't have Paypal, and most of them don't have one bank account, let alone three.
    Yeah, it's not like banks are older than recorded history or something!

    Oh wait they totally are.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2015-06-23 at 04:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Define "better".

    One of the virtues of the default wealth mechanic that has survived every edition of D&D is that it performs the most basic economic function necessary for a currency. It provides a medium of exchange.

    I've never seen a game session bog down because the players were dissatisfied with the gold-piece wealth mechanic. Not that they are perfectly happy with the wealth mechanic. It has more to do with the fact that players are usually worried about other mechanical issues that they deem more pressing.

    Unless the wealth mechanic is materially interfering with your players' Willing Suspension of Disbelief, you might be fixing something that isn't really broken.

    By the way, I'm calling it a "wealth mechanic" because it is in no way an "economic model".

    The Modern d20 wealth mechanic is a substantially better model for a post-modern economy, such as the economy we experience IRL.

    But this abstract wealth mechanic assumes such things as fiat currency, robust market regulation, modern infrastructure, international law, and... most importantly... credit.

    And if you want your players' eyes to glaze over, try incorporating a sophisticated credit system into the game.

    In my experience, players could not care less what their characters' FICO score might be.

    D&D copes with the geometrically increased mass of Huge to Colossal creatures by way of Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

    D&D copes with the measurably different mass of copper, silver and gold by way of Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

    As a DM, you are well within your discretion to allow this same Willing Suspension of Disbelief to cope with the gold piece as an omni-versal medium of exchange.

    The one major wealth-based house rule I impose consistently in my campaign is the Pawn Shop rule. If the players are in a hurry to liquidate a magic item in one day, they can reliably get 10% of its value. If they want the default 50% of base value, then they need to allow for at least a week. My players universally hate this house rule. But they live with it.

    If an NPC is going to buy a "magic" sword today... from someone he has never met, then that NPC is assuming a lot of risk, including the possibility that the sword isn't magic at all. Including the possibility that it might not even be a sword. Not to mention the possibility that the sword might be cursed. One day, let alone one combat round, is just not enough time for a potential buyer of arcane merchandise to perform reasonable due diligence before making a purchase. The due diligence that is associated with trafficking in magic items is somewhere between an art auction and a major drug deal. It takes time.

    If the sale has to happen the same day? 10% is the take-it-or-leave-it standard. And as to the notion of Diplomacy checks, the NPC has to have a Helpful attitude to even consider buying a magic item on the spot in the first place.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    D&D says that 1gp ~= $100
    Actually WotC have put the value of 1 gp to about $20.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Actually WotC have put the value of 1 gp to about $20.
    I go with 1 sp = $1, so 1gp = $20 (because 10sp = 1 ep, and 2 ep = 1 gp)
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    A mug of ale is four copper pieces; a case of Budweiser (bottled) is just over $20, making one bottle ~85˘.

    Though to be fair, if you're buying the latter at a bar there's probably a significant markup.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2015-06-24 at 08:06 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    A chicken cost outrageously cheap even for today standards they cost 2 pc so 0.2 dollars since you need 10 pc for having 1 silver.
    I think a silver piece costs a lot more than 1 dollar.
    Last edited by noob; 2015-06-24 at 08:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I go with 1 sp = $1, so 1gp = $20 (because 10sp = 1 ep, and 2 ep = 1 gp)
    Realistically, 1 cp should be worth more than the modern penny (dollars or sterling), so this works alright unless you want a more realistic copper/silver exchange rate. If going for more than 50cp=1sp it becomes dodgy, but should generally work out.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    For my D6 Fantasy game I am running, we are using the Funds mechanic.

    The idea is even more abstract: Funds represents your ability to purchase things. You roll against the difficulty to acquire something.

    Minor treasures, like the coins in the caravan guards' pockets, are ignored.
    Major treasures, like the entire contents of the caravan's strongboxes, is listed as a bonus (say +10). These are temporary, use once and lose, bonuses.
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    A chicken cost outrageously cheap even for today standards they cost 2 pc so 0.2 dollars since you need 10 pc for having 1 silver.
    I think a silver piece costs a lot more than 1 dollar.
    And yet, setting 1sp = $1USD lets me estimate prices pretty easily. Looks like chicken legs are running about 1sp/per pound.

    It makes the price lists in the game wrong, but I can pretty easily estimate what things should be, and it gives a reasonable economy based on that.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    And yet, setting 1sp = $1USD lets me estimate prices pretty easily. Looks like chicken legs are running about 1sp/per pound.

    It makes the price lists in the game wrong, but I can pretty easily estimate what things should be, and it gives a reasonable economy based on that.
    I usually use the 1sp = $1 conversion rate myself when converting 3.5 to the Wealth system, it puts the DC15 purchase breakpoint right around 20-35gp, which is the cost of a 1st level spell scroll.

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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evil DM View Post
    The amount of gold required to fulfill that 2% cash for total of all wealth is in excess of all gold mined on earth since we discovered how to mine and refine gold.
    The problem, though, is that at level 20 most characters have entered the 'Wish Economy', the point at which such things as 'scarcity' become a thing of the past, since anybody and their mother can generate arbitrarily large amounts of whatever material they want.
    GP comes from more than just the Prime Material as well. Elemental Earth is infinitely large, filled with caverns, veins of precious metals, and all manner of wonderful shinies. And any wizard worth his salt at that level isn't seriously worried about gold. They can literally just snap their fingers and PAO up a small mountain of gold, or ask one of their Solar buddies to grant them a nice, lovely quarter ton of the stuff.
    To us, gold is precious and valuable because there's a finite amount of it. To adventurers, gold is dirt-cheap because the multiverse is literally incapable of running out of it.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxagn View Post
    The problem, though, is that at level 20 most characters have entered the 'Wish Economy', the point at which such things as 'scarcity' become a thing of the past, since anybody and their mother can generate arbitrarily large amounts of whatever material they want.
    GP comes from more than just the Prime Material as well. Elemental Earth is infinitely large, filled with caverns, veins of precious metals, and all manner of wonderful shinies. And any wizard worth his salt at that level isn't seriously worried about gold. They can literally just snap their fingers and PAO up a small mountain of gold, or ask one of their Solar buddies to grant them a nice, lovely quarter ton of the stuff.
    To us, gold is precious and valuable because there's a finite amount of it. To adventurers, gold is dirt-cheap because the multiverse is literally incapable of running out of it.
    Assuming you play by RAW and don't limit the scarcity problem you now run into a secondary problem that makes WBL even more silly. If you live in a universe as described and there is no scarcity. Then nothing can have value beyond value artificially created. Gold is valuable because it is scarce. If gold is not scarce, why do the merchants want it. At which point this discussion crosses over into another thread on these forums about the impact of infinite manufacturing magic in a game world.

    If I was the wizard selling magical items in that world I wouldn't charge for gold. You want that cloak of badassery I made. The price is your soul. Because your soul is unique. There is only one of your soul and it seems a fitting payment for me.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    I agree with the earlier point that most people will deal with IOUs with people they know (although I'd throw in barter as well - for instance, one villager might own a plough, another might own an ox, and the rest either trade their crops or help the other two in their fields in exchange for their own fields getting ploughed each year, while all give crops to the blacksmith who sharpens the plough blade and the village herbalist who acts as vet to the Ox), and outsiders would have to deal in hard currency - and they may have to pay a premium for goods and services - remember, the guy changing their coins into gems or promisary notes for easier transport is going to take his cut, as is the guy at the other end.

    If someone appears to be rich, they're going to get all sorts of attention - beggars, priests looking for donations to the poor, traders adding a significant markup and providing goods or services which don't fully meet that price (for instance, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html ), thieves, conmen, impoverished nobles looking to marry into money, people looking for investments (both legitmate and fraudulent) and so on, which can lead to the PCs losing their money or at the very least having to conceal their wealth.

    The PCs could choose to invest their wealth anyway (I assume at least one or two want to eventually settle down with enough money to live out the rest of their days in relative comfort) - a moderate house in a city or a hold in the wilderness will need people to look after it while they're away, which is a small but constant drain on their finances, a merchant could take a large amount up front and only return a small percentage a year (but will do so every year). And while the caravan train in a previous post allowed the character to make a profit, there's no guarantee selling up will even allow the character to make their initial money back.

    Some characters might get a big score, and blow the lot on carousing in a few days.

    And the state's going to want their cut, which could be taxes (annual or a one-off windfall tax), or the king's steward saying "Yes, we promised you the princesses hand in marriage for killing the dragon. Your share of the hoard should just about cover the cost of the ceremony."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evil DM View Post
    Assuming you play by RAW and don't limit the scarcity problem you now run into a secondary problem that makes WBL even more silly. If you live in a universe as described and there is no scarcity. Then nothing can have value beyond value artificially created. Gold is valuable because it is scarce. If gold is not scarce, why do the merchants want it.
    Well, how many level 20 characters are there? If there's only 1 or 2, then, while their local effect could be massive, they won't have that much of an effect on the world. If there's more than that, then, while Bob the Mage can potentially summon up a quarter ton of gold, his rival Steve the Mage can stop it from being summoned, and the Merchants Guild probably have their own mages on retainer (assuming they're not actually the main investors in the first place) to keep things scarce.

    And at that level, they've probably got more important things to worry about on a day-to-day basis than infinite wealth anyway - they're more likely involved in the "Gods and Monsters" level of conflict.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    WBL is based on average number of encounters per level × average treasure per encounter at CR. The broken part of the system is how much wealth is being given out, not the assumptions behind WBL. Also, using gold as the base monetary unit is screwy.

    The very first time I played D&D in 1976 I rolled up my first character (average Int and Wis = Fighter). The GM rolled some dice and said, "You have 90 gold pieces." At this point I only knew that 1 gp = 20 sp. I thought, "I'll be able to buy armor, a horse, maybe even hire a couple men at arms." Ha ha ha!

    I knew that around 1900 "a dollar a day" was actually good money, many laborers didn't earn that much. Years of visiting battlefields and forts told me that Revolutionary War soldiers earned 20c/day, and Civil War soldiers about double that. Years of Sunday school taught me that 1 denarius/day was an average in Jesus' time, and the denarius was about half the weight of a dime.

    So, I had this notion that one or two silver pieces a day was the typical earning power, so my 90gp was 3-6 years' income for a peasant. Then I saw the price list and I could only buy rations & gear, a sword, a wooden shield, and something called "ring mail" that nobody could tell me what it was.

    When Gygax & company made gold the common medium of exchange, and then made it almost worthless, it broke the mental link with our natural expectation of the value of gold and silver. Even for people who don't know solid figures about historic wages.
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    I like having gold be relatively common compared to real life because it allows you to have large treasure hoards like the stereotypical dragon laying on a bed of gold without breaking the game.

    In my campaign world gold is a little more common than silver is in real life and most gemstones are roughly on par with new world amethysts.

    I also have "orichalcum" which is more valuable than real life gold and is used when I want a single hugely valuable piece of jewelry or high level players want to be able to carry their wealth around with them.
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    Default Re: Are there better ways to handle fantasy currency?

    One way to help this might actually be banks.

    No, wait, don't run away!

    Any overarching organisation can function as a bank, as long as it has secure branches in places where people want to trade. If it can create "letters of credit" that are hard to forge (magic would help there, just as much as it helps the forgers) then people can pay gold or other valuable stuff into them and withdraw equivalent amounts (minus a small fee...) at any of their branches by presenting their letter of credit. Churches used to do be the location of choice for this.

    This to a large extent alleviates the problem of having to cart around vast quantities of gold, all the while risking getting it lost or stolen. Eventually, people will just start exchanging the letters of credit, creating the first paper money.

    Of course, once you have banks, you have a new power structure, and an immensely weathly one at that. Once you have that, you have corruption. Once you have *that*, you have potential adventure hooks...

    Meanwhile, why not bank with Neufenfers, the Bank You Can Trust*

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    Last edited by Kami2awa; 2015-07-04 at 01:21 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I like having gold be relatively common compared to real life because it allows you to have large treasure hoards like the stereotypical dragon laying on a bed of gold without breaking the game.

    In my campaign world gold is a little more common than silver is in real life and most gemstones are roughly on par with new world amethysts.

    I also have "orichalcum" which is more valuable than real life gold and is used when I want a single hugely valuable piece of jewelry or high level players want to be able to carry their wealth around with them.
    ...which is basically D&D gold value. AD&D changed the gp/gp/cp size from 50/lb to 10/lb. So plate mail (50 lb of steel) cost 400 gp (40 lb of gold). Henry VIII equipped a group of soldiers with the equivalent of plate mail for 2.35 lb of silver each. That puts AD&D gold at about 3x the value of copper in 16th cen England. In 3.5e plate mail sells for 600 gp (12 lb), which is still only 1/5 the value of silver in the Tudor England.
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