Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Kurald Galain]

Added Deivon's Parry and Tactical Adaptation spells, both rated blue (and likely to end up banned in PFS). Added sigilus archetype, rated red only because I don't have any worse colors than that. Downrated Magic Warrior archetype since it got nerfed in the new book. Added thornblade (which is arguably best on a half-elf, which also gets proficiency).

[TiaC]

You rated Visualization of the Body blue, but did you notice the 200 gp material component cost?

[Kurald Galain]

You rated Visualization of the Body blue, but did you notice the 200 gp material component cost?

Yes. That's a cost comparable to a second-level scroll or potion, which should be pocket change for a moderate-level adventurer. Of course, you'd cast Vis/Body only when you're heading into trouble, not every day as default (like e.g. Mage Armor or Prot from Arrows).

[Florian]

Tactical Adaptation is yet another way to get temporary bonus combat feats. Someone should write a guide about the things you can do with those at some point, but Brawler guides have a small section on those.

A guide to creating Schrödingers Fighter? Very tough topic to handle considering the whole material that´s available right now and considering that most guides have stopped being updated, this one here standing out for the continued work on it.

[Kurald Galain]

A guide to creating Schrödingers Fighter? Very tough topic to handle considering the whole material that´s available right now and considering that most guides have stopped being updated, this one here standing out for the continued work on it.

Oddly, the common view on the Paizo forums is that guides written five or more years ago are better than any of the new guides (even if it's on the same class and even if the newer guide contains more material). Obviously this doesn't give people an incentive to update anything

[Florian]

Oddly, the common view on the Paizo forums is that guides written five or more years ago are better than any of the new guides (even if it's on the same class and even if the newer guide contains more material). Obviously this doesn't give people an incentive to update anything

The only explanation I can come up with is that people want things to be easy, get a short guided tour on a class and then simply pick one of the example builds and be done with it.
Updating the available material means you actually have to read, understand and make choices based on your (now hopefully expanded) understanding of a class, but that´s actually not treated as a very desirable thing.

[stormsouldevil]

That.... is problematic.

Separate thing, is power attack really that bad? My GM is letting me do it 2 handed so Im getting a higher damage and with Furious focus that gets pretty useful.

[Florian]

That.... is problematic.

Separate thing, is power attack really that bad? My GM is letting me do it 2 handed so Im getting a higher damage and with Furious focus that gets pretty useful.

Your gm doesn´t have to allow you that, as you can 2H any one-handed (non-light) weapon anyways.
PA is just not as useful on a Magus as it scales with BAB and you have to counter the drop in precision with your arcane pool.

[stormsouldevil]

Good to know. Any good retraining options for the 2?

Currently I got, at level 9

1Toughness
Human bonus:
3Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
5Intensify Spell:
5b Weapon Focus
7Craft Wonderous Item
9

[Krazzman]

That.... is problematic.

Separate thing, is power attack really that bad? My GM is letting me do it 2 handed so Im getting a higher damage and with Furious focus that gets pretty useful.

For most Magi not. A strength based Magus might have a use for it but in most cases spell combat and other things already diminish your to-hit which means you either find yourself not really using it as your modus operandi is Spell strike or spell combat.

Furthermore your PA is weaker than other front liners and you have other thing's to focus on which in turn raise opportunity costs.

For example if you would be playing a gestalt magus//slayer it might be more useful as it has higher returns and you have more resources.

[stormsouldevil]

Ty, but still at a bit of a loss on what to take in place of them.

[Florian]

Ty, but still at a bit of a loss on what to take in place of them.

Can´t help you unless you state your current build, archetype used and game style.

[stormsouldevil]

Ask and you shall receive. :D
Stats are at level 9 with magic items 24 str, 16 dex, 14con, 23int, 10 wis, and 7 cha.
AC is 35 with shield cast.

str build, bladebound/hexcrafter (for flight)

Feats are-
1Toughness
Human bonus:
3Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
5Intensify Spell:
5b Weapon Focus
7Craft Wonderous Item
9
Arcana are Enduring blade, and Hasted assault.

Not sure what you mean on game style but we are running through Rise of the Runelords. Fairly heavy on comabt. Was playing Magus as a smart fighter kinda deal but we are getting a fighter finally (Rotating door of players sadly.)

[Florian]

Ask and you shall receive. :D
Stats are 24 str, 16 dex, 14con, 23int, 10 wis, and 7 cha.

str build, bladebound/hexcrafter (for flight)

Feats are above
Arcana are Enduring blade, and Hasted assault.

Not sure what you mean on game style but we are running through Rise of the Runelords. Fairly heavy on comabt. Was playing Magus as a smart fighter kinda deal but we are getting a fighter finally (Rotating door of players sadly.)

Style is about Shocking Grasp build, or more general BFC build, being conservative with spell use or going nova, and so on. Generally speaking going for the Eldritch Assault feat chain works on most Magus builds.

[stormsouldevil]

Ive been using SG and Mask of Goz+Obscuring Mist (occasionally with enlarge thrown in) I dont get to do the latter a lot but Ive turned 2 or 3 big encounters into clean up fests because of it.

I imagine you mean improved initiative, blind fight, and Eldritch assualt. Not seeing a lot of other feats keyed there. And only seeing minimal usage for EA because I dont use Vanish very often. It might help with my ObscurringMist shenenigans though.

[Florian]

Lvl 10 gives you Greater Invisibility. Instead of +4 crit confirmation roll, you can auto-confirm crits then.

[stormsouldevil]

I imagine our Rogue is going to be more absorbed with that spell. Ty though

[ChaosShadow00x]

Hi guys!

Thanks Kurald Galain for making this guide. I read it up and down and still refer to it constantly.

Was hoping that I could get some advice from fellow Magus players. I've been working on my first Magus, but soon as I read up on them I instantly fell in love. Mixing blade and magic is one of my favorite ways to play in any game. I find myself enthralled by the sheer flexibility of the Magus, and that they can be extremely competent even unsupported, unlike my other favorite class, the Rogue (though, my heavy rogue can handily take down targets alone, but it's the only build for them I've found that works, and gets odd glances from DM's and players alike being very atypical).


Anyway, I'll try to explain what I'm going for and what I've done towards that end, and also why so people can understand, so it'll be a bit of a wall of text, but I'll sum it up at the end.



Our party is small, and I'm trying to make my Magus competent in both their spells and maneuvers, as well as in frontline combat (damaging). So really, a bit of jack of trades.

To save on point buy, I've built a Tiefling Dex Magus landing at 8/19/14/16/10/7 (20pts) for my attributes. I've chosen the Blade Bound and HexCrafter archetypes for a kickass self upgrading, invulnerable weapon, as well as early access to flight and some extra debuff spells/abilities. Spell recall didnt seem a huge loss, as a Bladebound magus has fewer arcana to dish out, even though the Tiefling favored class still brings back barely above normal, I havnt asked my DM if I can just call it even.

Were currently level 3, so I obviously have the Weap. Finesse and Dervish Dance feats to make my dex build usable, but I'm having a very difficult time choosing which feats/arcana to pick up down the road. Or rather, when to pick them up, as I've made a shortlist of the ones I know I want, or would like.

At level 5, I really want to greatly expand my ability to consistently use spells, and am looking to pick up both Wand Wielder, as well as Spell Scars. I've talked to my GM, and being that Spell Scars leaves your offhand "free", and do not need to handle the scroll like scar, it can be used with Spell Strike/Combat. Wands will be dedicated to the level 1, perhaps lvl 2 spells I will cast at least once every combat, such as Shield, True Strike and Vanish.

Between these two, this will free up my Magus to allow her to instead prepare a wider variety of spells, and carry situational spells that are to be used less frequently in the form of Spell Scars (such as support/buff spells that may be useful, but not always). I really want to maximize the number and variety of spells I can use.

At level 7, I KNOW I will pickup Intensified spell to keep my Shocking Grasp relevant. I have taken the Magical Lineage trait so it will stay as a level 1 spell. This, once I can cast a few more of them, will be my go to "nuke" spell when I just want to hit something hard.

I will also take Lunge at level 9 for obvious reasons. As a Dex Magus, my AC will be great, and hitting things as reach is a huge enabler.

Beyond this, I've isolated an oodle of feats/arcana that I believe would support my build.

Accurate Strike: Because hitting things is good
Flamboyant Arcana: countering AoO's is good! But it's low on my list.
Hasted Assault: Haste is excellent. Always.
Misfortune: Very powerful debuff
Spell Shield: Potentially avoiding a powerful attack can save your life
Close Range Arcana: Enable many more spells to be used with Spell Strike/Combat

These are the feats I've plucked out, but cannot decide at what levels I should pick them up. There are also very likely other feats/arcana I should look at, but these jumped out at me.

Do note however that I've never had a campaign go past lvl 10, they usually die off well before that. I have a feeling however that this one may endure.

TL;DR

Condensing the above, I'd like to make a jack of all trades Magus leaning towards combat, maximize the number and variety of spells I have at my disposal, and still be solid and competent. I have picked a few feats that will directly benefit this, specifically the Dervish Dance line, and Wand Wielder/Spell Scars for spell count/variety. The rest, however, is very up in the air, at least as far as when things should be picked up.

If anyone is willing to give me some pointers, I would greatly appreciate that.


Bonus Question!

Is there a way to store/prepare MORE cantrips? Theres a few that I would rather like to have on hand, but not always, and rarely worth while to wait a full day to change my prepared cantrips to use.


Thanks!

[Ellrin]

Our party is small, and I'm trying to make my Magus competent in both their spells and maneuvers, as well as in frontline combat (damaging). So really, a bit of jack of trades.

To save on point buy, I've built a Tiefling Dex Magus landing at 8/19/14/16/10/7 (20pts) for my attributes. I've chosen the Blade Bound and HexCrafter archetypes for a kickass self upgrading, invulnerable weapon, as well as early access to flight and some extra debuff spells/abilities. Spell recall didnt seem a huge loss, as a Bladebound magus has fewer arcana to dish out, even though the Tiefling favored class still brings back barely above normal, I havnt asked my DM if I can just call it even.

In my opinion, I'd say the bladebound archetype puts you slightly below a vanilla magus's optimization potential at standard WBL, though that changes for the better the lower your campaign's WBL goes (and for the worse the higher it goes). Optimization obviously isn't everything, but it's something to consider, and the loss in potential flexibility (adding abilities to your weapon that aren't available through your arcane pool) definitely hurts a little.

For flight, I actually like Magic Warrior a little better than Hexcrafter, but Hexcrafter is significantly better overall (I think they stack, though?), and I've heard the new book nerfs Magic Warrior (though I haven't seen it so I don't know what the changes are).

Hexcrafter will definitely help you in the flexibility department--it's got some nice save-or-die hexes, as well as the various debuff, utility, and flavor hexes. If you get the arcana that lets you add all [curse] descriptor spells to your list, be sure to ask your DM at what level those will be at, since some are different for different classes.

Were currently level 3, so I obviously have the Weap. Finesse and Dervish Dance feats to make my dex build usable, but I'm having a very difficult time choosing which feats/arcana to pick up down the road. Or rather, when to pick them up, as I've made a shortlist of the ones I know I want, or would like.

At level 5, I really want to greatly expand my ability to consistently use spells, and am looking to pick up both Wand Wielder, as well as Spell Scars. I've talked to my GM, and being that Spell Scars leaves your offhand "free", and do not need to handle the scroll like scar, it can be used with Spell Strike/Combat. Wands will be dedicated to the level 1, perhaps lvl 2 spells I will cast at least once every combat, such as Shield, True Strike and Vanish.

Between these two, this will free up my Magus to allow her to instead prepare a wider variety of spells, and carry situational spells that are to be used less frequently in the form of Spell Scars (such as support/buff spells that may be useful, but not always). I really want to maximize the number and variety of spells I can use.

At level 7, I KNOW I will pickup Intensified spell to keep my Shocking Grasp relevant. I have taken the Magical Lineage trait so it will stay as a level 1 spell. This, once I can cast a few more of them, will be my go to "nuke" spell when I just want to hit something hard.

I will also take Lunge at level 9 for obvious reasons. As a Dex Magus, my AC will be great, and hitting things as reach is a huge enabler.

Beyond this, I've isolated an oodle of feats/arcana that I believe would support my build.

Accurate Strike: Because hitting things is good
Flamboyant Arcana: countering AoO's is good! But it's low on my list.
Hasted Assault: Haste is excellent. Always.
Misfortune: Very powerful debuff
Spell Shield: Potentially avoiding a powerful attack can save your life
Close Range Arcana: Enable many more spells to be used with Spell Strike/Combat

These are the feats I've plucked out, but cannot decide at what levels I should pick them up. There are also very likely other feats/arcana I should look at, but these jumped out at me.

I'd say the Slumber and (eventually) Ice Tomb hexes are going to be pretty important if you can get your Int up to a respectable level, since those will eventually end up as your highest DC save-or-lose abilities (and they target different saves), and have no limit on uses per day. If you grab those hexes, you might want to consider the Fey Hex trait, which once per day lets you retry a once/day/creature hex if it fails.

Other than those, the flight and misfortune hexes are pretty great.

As for intensified shocking grasp, I do want to point out the major alternative--rime frostbite. Intensified shocking grasp has a higher DPR potential, assuming an average of two successful attacks per round, starting at level 5 and lasting until level 13; frostbite's DPR potential (with two successful attacks per round) is higher at levels 1-4 and 15+ (they're tied at level 14). With an average of three successful attacks per round, frostbite is superior DPR at all levels (though obviously getting three+ attacks before level eight won't be an every combat sort of thing). Adding rime spell to the combination gives you the ability to auto-entangle enemies. Combine with the Enforcer feat and Blade of Mercy trait to apply shaken via Intimidate, too (you might want the Bruising Intellect trait and Skill Focus (Intimidate) for the best results there). Finally, if you can grab Piercing Cold (a metamagic feat from 3.5), your frostbite spell can overcome cold resistance. Obviously this combination only really starts shining after a certain level, and if you're in a campaign with a lot of enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting effects, the Intimidate stuff will be of lower consequence; and a campaign with lots of nonlethal immunity or fast healing/regeneration might make frostbite severely underpowered.

If you have access to third-party material (specifically DSP), you might consider the Deadly Agility feat instead of Dervish Dance--it's dex to damage on any finessable weapon with no restrictions, and after the recent errata only has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite.

[Kurald Galain]

Good to know. Any good retraining options for the 2?

Currently I got, at level 9

If you're looking into retraining, note that toughness, weapon focus, and WP: bastard sword aren't particularly good feats either. And enduring blade is a rather weak arcana. Check the lists in the top posts for suggestions, e.g. Lunge, Step Up, or Blindfight. If you're working with concealment a lot then the Moonlit Stalker combo may be good.

In my opinion, I'd say the bladebound archetype puts you slightly below a vanilla magus's optimization potential at standard WBL,

In practice you'll be ahead of standard WBL, except at very high levels. Black blades are very powerful.

I've heard the new book nerfs Magic Warrior (though I haven't seen it so I don't know what the changes are).

Yes, their main ability goes from being usable at will to costing a pool point per usage.

As for intensified shocking grasp, I do want to point out the major alternative--rime frostbite. Intensified shocking grasp has a higher DPR potential,

As soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp. And you don't need any traits here: Frostbite already does non-lethal so Enforcer will trigger.

HTH!

[Ellrin]

As soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp. And you don't need any traits here: Frostbite already does non-lethal so Enforcer will trigger.

You do need to get a certain number of hits off per round to surpass an intensified shocking grasp, though. The higher your opponent's AC, the more valuable shocking grasp's single hit will be. If you can reliably hit at least three times per round, frostbite is always superior, but less than that and shocking grasp can surpass it at mid levels.

As for Blade of Mercy, I've seen some DMs point to the fact that the Enforcer feat specifies you have to do nonlethal damage "with a melee weapon" for its effect to work as justification for not allowing it to function with a frostbite spellstrike (since the nonlethal damage is coming from a spell, even if the spell is coming through the weapon). Obviously this is a table-by-table thing, so ymmv, I just wanted to point out the most widely acceptable method of achieving the desired end.

Besides, Blade of Mercy lets you get the effect even when using other spells, as well as giving you a +1 damage on just about every attack you'll ever make if you go with a nonlethal damage schtick, which is decent for a trait.

[Kurald Galain]

You do need to get a certain number of hits off per round to surpass an intensified shocking grasp, though.

Well, you actually need to calculate DPR based on the expected AC of monsters of that level, rather than assume a number of attacks. Somebody actually did that earlier in the thread The summary of that research was that, as soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp.

[ChaosShadow00x]

In my opinion, I'd say the bladebound archetype puts you slightly below a vanilla magus's optimization potential at standard WBL, though that changes for the better the lower your campaign's WBL goes (and for the worse the higher it goes). Optimization obviously isn't everything, but it's something to consider, and the loss in potential flexibility (adding abilities to your weapon that aren't available through your arcane pool) definitely hurts a little.

For flight, I actually like Magic Warrior a little better than Hexcrafter, but Hexcrafter is significantly better overall (I think they stack, though?), and I've heard the new book nerfs Magic Warrior (though I haven't seen it so I don't know what the changes are).

Hexcrafter will definitely help you in the flexibility department--it's got some nice save-or-die hexes, as well as the various debuff, utility, and flavor hexes. If you get the arcana that lets you add all [curse] descriptor spells to your list, be sure to ask your DM at what level those will be at, since some are different for different classes.

In practice you'll be ahead of standard WBL, except at very high levels. Black blades are very powerful.

I'm actually expecting my party to be well below WBL, as we do not have access to buy magical items for this first stretch of our campaign. Every DnD campaign I've actually been in, in fact, has been horribly below WBL. Sometimes by as much as 1/6th. ATM, I was allowed to build my Magus at level 3 with 2/3rds WBL. This makes the Black Blade's value go up dramatically just for being more reliable.

I'd say the Slumber and (eventually) Ice Tomb hexes are going to be pretty important if you can get your Int up to a respectable level, since those will eventually end up as your highest DC save-or-lose abilities (and they target different saves), and have no limit on uses per day. If you grab those hexes, you might want to consider the Fey Hex trait, which once per day lets you retry a once/day/creature hex if it fails.

Other than those, the flight and misfortune hexes are pretty great.

As for intensified shocking grasp, I do want to point out the major alternative--rime frostbite. Intensified shocking grasp has a higher DPR potential, assuming an average of two successful attacks per round, starting at level 5 and lasting until level 13; frostbite's DPR potential (with two successful attacks per round) is higher at levels 1-4 and 15+ (they're tied at level 14). With an average of three successful attacks per round, frostbite is superior DPR at all levels (though obviously getting three+ attacks before level eight won't be an every combat sort of thing). Adding rime spell to the combination gives you the ability to auto-entangle enemies. Combine with the Enforcer feat and Blade of Mercy trait to apply shaken via Intimidate, too (you might want the Bruising Intellect trait and Skill Focus (Intimidate) for the best results there). Finally, if you can grab Piercing Cold (a metamagic feat from 3.5), your frostbite spell can overcome cold resistance. Obviously this combination only really starts shining after a certain level, and if you're in a campaign with a lot of enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting effects, the Intimidate stuff will be of lower consequence; and a campaign with lots of nonlethal immunity or fast healing/regeneration might make frostbite severely underpowered.

I did not know about these other two Hexes! Though the background traits dont fit my character (build-wise, yes, background-wise, no. We have to justify this in our games), I will certainly add these hexes to my short list.

I have also taken a closer look at frostbite, and done some research using AnyDice. Assuming 2 landed hits, Sub level 5, Frostbite actually will deal MORE average damage at level 3, until 5. At level 5, shocking grasp averages .5 more, and this gap widens in shocking grasps favor for a good while, UNLESS, you can consistently land 3+ attacks.
Also, throughout and at any level, Shocking Grasp has more damage potential, but Frostbite has a MUCH higher minimum damage, usually around 50% more.

There is one thing I need to ask however, about Frostbite. I know that some of these touch spells allows you to continue to hold the charge if you miss I believe... If this applies to all remaining potential "uses" of the spell, Frostbite is CONSIDERABLY more efficient as a spell. At level 4, if all attacks from Spellstrike hit, you could use it for 2 rounds, casting Frostbite the first round, then shocking grasp the second. I have, so far, seen nothing that says that casting another touch attack spell overrides the previous spell cast. Even if it does, it still lasts for multiple rounds worth of attacks. If it works like this, then Frostbite is an INCREDIBLY powerful spell for Magus.

Spoiler: AnyDice Caluclations

Show

\output 0's are just for spacing when viewing summary. \
\Assuming a damage bonus of 5.\
\Assuming all attacks are landing\

\Level 2, 2 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 3, 2 attacks"
output 2d6+3d6+10 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 2d6+2d6+10+6 named "Frost Bite"

\Level 5, 2 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 5, 2 attacks"
output 2d6+5d6+10 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 2d6+2d6+10+10 named "Frost Bite"

\Level 8, 2 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 8, 2 attacks"
output 2d6+8d6+10 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 2d6+2d6+10+16 named "Frostbite"

\Level 8, 3 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 8, 3 attacks"
output 3d6+8d6+15 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 3d6+3d6+15+24 named "Frostbite"

\Code for AnyDice online calculator.\

Well, you actually need to calculate DPR based on the expected AC of monsters of that level, rather than assume a number of attacks. Somebody actually did that earlier in the thread The summary of that research was that, as soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp.

I will, if I get around to it, consider updating this little nibble of code to include hit chances based on D20 rolls VS a settable variable for AC. That sounds like work though... But if I do it will make the figures a much more realistic expectation VS encounters.


Last note on Frostbite however, is that with only 7 charisma, I do not have a ton of potential for intimidate at a -2, which limits the feasibility of using Enforcer. But despite that, it's still a very valid option for additional or alternate damage.

If you have access to third-party material (specifically DSP), you might consider the Deadly Agility feat instead of Dervish Dance--it's dex to damage on any finessable weapon with no restrictions, and after the recent errata only has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite.

If I were not already playing as a Bladebound, this would be something very much worth considering. I will remember this for future potential builds.

However... The question still is, and probably got lost in my post, but is at which levels do I start choosing feats/Hex/Arcana from the shortlist I have now expanded? I know I want many of these, just choosing when to gain them is something I am struggling with, as I feel picking some up too late may dull their potential, while others such as Intensified, are only useful after a certain level.

[Kurald Galain]

There is one thing I need to ask however, about Frostbite. I know that some of these touch spells allows you to continue to hold the charge if you miss I believe...

This specifically applies to all touch spells (but not ranged touch spells), including Frostbite.

Yes, a second touch spell does override the first. However, on round one you can cast Frostbite, make the attack for that spell; then full attack. Then on round two you make a full attack first and then cast another spell. There's a reason why it has top ratings, after all

Accurate Strike: Because hitting things is good
Flamboyant Arcana: countering AoO's is good! But it's low on my list.
Hasted Assault: Haste is excellent. Always.
Misfortune: Very powerful debuff
Spell Shield: Potentially avoiding a powerful attack can save your life
Close Range Arcana: Enable many more spells to be used with Spell Strike/Combat

Was this your shortlist?

Flamboyant is better than Spell Shield (and the two of them overlap somewhat). Both are better than Misfortune, which in turn is better than Close Range (there aren't actually many more spells that can be used with it). Acc.Strike and Hasted both require level 9, and Hasted Assault is better than the former. That should give you an idea of picking order.

[ChaosShadow00x]

This specifically applies to all touch spells (but not ranged touch spells), including Frostbite.

Yes, a second touch spell does override the first. However, on round one you can cast Frostbite, make the attack for that spell; then full attack. Then on round two you make a full attack first and then cast another spell. There's a reason why it has top ratings, after all

Omg, this is amazing. Knowing this had unfurled even more options in combat. I'm assuming that non spellstrike spells can still be used in spell combat with out overriding the Frostbite? Such as Shield, Vanish, Truestrike, ect?

Was this your shortlist?

Flamboyant is better than Spell Shield (and the two of them overlap somewhat). Both are better than Misfortune, which in turn is better than Close Range (there aren't actually many more spells that can be used with it). Acc.Strike and Hasted both require level 9, and Hasted Assault is better than the former. That should give you an idea of picking order.

Yes! And Yes it does! Thank you very much.

It's worth noting though that I do intend to take Lunge at level 9, so it's a toss up between hitting more (hasted assault) and hitting more frequently (Acc.Strike).

Being that the effects of Hasted Assault can be gained in other ways, and I should be rich enough to hopefully buy boots of speed so I'm assuming the ability to land strikes as touch attacks makes Acc. Strike the better choice.

EDIT: While I can now confidently fill out my first 10 levels of feats and cool perks, the question would remain that if later, at higher levels, if there are other feats/arcana/hex I have not yet considered that are better than the ones I am currently looking at. I'm dropping Misfortune for now, but Slumber and Ice Tomb are on the list now.

[Ellrin]

Well, you actually need to calculate DPR based on the expected AC of monsters of that level, rather than assume a number of attacks. Somebody actually did that earlier in the thread The summary of that research was that, as soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp.

The expected AC of a monster is ultimately just one factor in determining your expected DPR in a round (attack bonuses and miss chance being the other major components), and it's really difficult to make any kind of assumptions about monster AC for a specific campaign (unless you're using a pre-made adventure path), even by level, since monsters of the same CR often have extremely variable AC. The average AC you can expect to run into can vary pretty wildly from campaign to campaign. Haste and spell combat is going to get you three attacks at your highest BAB (-2), so you've got decent odds compared to someone stuck with just iteratives with the same sort of attack bonuses, but if you only have, say, a 40% chance to hit your enemy's AC with full BAB -2 at level 9, even with haste you'll probably end up doing more DPR with intensified shocking grasp.

I agree frostbite is overall the superior damage option, since in most situations, at most levels, you'll probably end up with a higher DPR, it's a more efficient use of your spell slots (especially important for kensai!), and you can combine it with Rime Spell for some really nice debuffing; but there are certainly going to be campaigns where intensified shocking grasp outperforms it in nova DPR at mid-levels. Construct- and undead-heavy campaigns are much worse playgrounds for frostbite than a jaunt on the elemental plane of fire, for instance.

Omg, this is amazing. Knowing this had unfurled even more options in combat. I'm assuming that non spellstrike spells can still be used in spell combat with out overriding the Frostbite? Such as Shield, Vanish, Truestrike, ect?

I'm afraid you can't cast any spells at all while holding a touch spell without losing the charge(/remaining charges), and since with frostbite you'll usually have about two to four rounds worth of attacks, you'll want to pre-buff as much as possible before the general melee gets going.

It's worth noting though that I do intend to take Lunge at level 9, so it's a toss up between hitting more (hasted assault) and hitting more frequently (Acc.Strike).

Being that the effects of Hasted Assault can be gained in other ways, and I should be rich enough to hopefully buy boots of speed so I'm assuming the ability to land strikes as touch attacks makes Acc. Strike the better choice.

Accurate Strike is sort of better the higher your level, since you'll be facing more and more high AC, low touch AC enemies as the CR of your enemies rises, but it's a decent choice even at 9th level. Hasted assault is a really nice arcana, since you basically always want haste, but it sort of gets worse as your level increases, assuming you have another spellcaster in the party who'll be casting it on everyone anyway, since as your characters gain more spell slots, you can generally rely on either you or him to be casting it in the first round of combat (or as a pre-combat buff) in pretty nearly every combat, anyway. It's great for when you don't have haste prepared and you get ambushed, but boots of speed are nearly equally great for the same thing.

I'm actually expecting my party to be well below WBL, as we do not have access to buy magical items for this first stretch of our campaign. Every DnD campaign I've actually been in, in fact, has been horribly below WBL. Sometimes by as much as 1/6th. ATM, I was allowed to build my Magus at level 3 with 2/3rds WBL. This makes the Black Blade's value go up dramatically just for being more reliable.

Ah, geez. I've only ever been in really low WBL campaigns, too. It's really rough on these theoretical builds, isn't it?

It sounds like bladebound will absolutely push you ahead of the curve, then, especially if your DM likes to target equipment. If you have access to third party arcana, you might even want to consider Warding--it'll let you enhance your armor through your arcane pool (though the special ability selection isn't great), letting you spend your cash on enchantments instead of increasing the enhancement bonus.

I did not know about these other two Hexes! Though the background traits dont fit my character (build-wise, yes, background-wise, no. We have to justify this in our games), I will certainly add these hexes to my short list.

Well there is one other possibility for Int to Intimidate, though I don't know if it'll fit your character any better; Clever Wordplay lets you replace Cha with Int on any one Cha-based skill.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. I picked up Evil Eye on my 6th level hexcrafter when I leveled up last session (staying away from swift action stuff because I took the Path of War Martial Training feats). I haven't been able to fully combo the two abilities, but the level 5 feat to get a stance (which debuffs nearby enemy's saves) has been worth it. Should I have picked up something else? I picked Evil Eye for its versatility. Is Misfortune better?

[Kurald Galain]

I picked Evil Eye for its versatility. Is Misfortune better?

Yes, since the Magus doesn't have actions to spare on Cackle (and therefore EE's main appeal, i.e. that it works even on a successful save, doesn't really help you).

Also, if you're not a Bladebound, look into getting a Conductive weapon.

[ChaosShadow00x]

You guys are cool and helpful =P

The expected AC of a monster is ultimately just one factor in determining your expected DPR in a round (attack bonuses and miss chance being the other major components), and it's really difficult to make any kind of assumptions about monster AC for a specific campaign (unless you're using a pre-made adventure path), even by level, since monsters of the same CR often have extremely variable AC. The average AC you can expect to run into can vary pretty wildly from campaign to campaign. Haste and spell combat is going to get you three attacks at your highest BAB (-2), so you've got decent odds compared to someone stuck with just iteratives with the same sort of attack bonuses, but if you only have, say, a 40% chance to hit your enemy's AC with full BAB -2 at level 9, even with haste you'll probably end up doing more DPR with intensified shocking grasp.

I agree frostbite is overall the superior damage option, since in most situations, at most levels, you'll probably end up with a higher DPR, it's a more efficient use of your spell slots (especially important for kensai!), and you can combine it with Rime Spell for some really nice debuffing; but there are certainly going to be campaigns where intensified shocking grasp outperforms it in nova DPR at mid-levels. Construct- and undead-heavy campaigns are much worse playgrounds for frostbite than a jaunt on the elemental plane of fire, for instance.

It's these reasons I still intend to stick with Magical Lineage:Shocking Grasp. I will be able to intelligently choose which of these two spells that will benefit the days worth of encounters, granted that I have any foreknowledge to plan upon.

Still, did some simulated results with AnyDice, and discovered the incredible burst potential from a lvl 10 hasted Magus using the Frostbite/Shocking Grasp 1-2 combo, averaging 197 damage over the two rounds.

Spoiler: Breakdown from the calculated summary here:

Show

output 8d6+40+10d6+7d6+70 named "2 round damage potential"

\Hasted: 4 attacks per round, 1d6+5 each\
\1 BAB attack, +1 @ BAB from haste, +1 @ BAB from Spellstrike, +1 iterative\
\Frostbite @ lvl 10 deals 1d6+10 per attack\
\Shocking Grasp @ lvl 10 deals 10d6\
\Assumed Attack Damage @ +5\


output 4d6+20+4d6+40 named "4x Frostbite"
output 4d6+20+3d6+30+10d6 named "3x Frostbite w/Shocking Grasp"

\Code for AnyDice online dice calculator\

The only other build I can think of that can hit harder is my Catfolk Rogue with sharp+viscous claws and fully feated Deadly Sneak, with full-attack sneak attack. Then again, her thing is kill her target with the first Salvo... Or die. Decoy ring helps a ton for survivability, but it's not infallible.

I'm afraid you can't cast any spells at all while holding a touch spell without losing the charge(/remaining charges), and since with frostbite you'll usually have about two to four rounds worth of attacks, you'll want to pre-buff as much as possible before the general melee gets going.

This makes me sad =(
But it is still acceptable. At least I can swap when the spell is cast to after my full attack.

Accurate Strike is sort of better the higher your level, since you'll be facing more and more high AC, low touch AC enemies as the CR of your enemies rises, but it's a decent choice even at 9th level. Hasted assault is a really nice arcana, since you basically always want haste, but it sort of gets worse as your level increases, assuming you have another spellcaster in the party who'll be casting it on everyone anyway, since as your characters gain more spell slots, you can generally rely on either you or him to be casting it in the first round of combat (or as a pre-combat buff) in pretty nearly every combat, anyway. It's great for when you don't have haste prepared and you get ambushed, but boots of speed are nearly equally great for the same thing.

I'll feel it out then as the campaign progresses. Boots of haste seem the better, long term option as they're not too expensive, but no, we dont have another arcane caster. [/quote]

Ah, geez. I've only ever been in really low WBL campaigns, too. It's really rough on these theoretical builds, isn't it?

It sounds like bladebound will absolutely push you ahead of the curve, then, especially if your DM likes to target equipment. If you have access to third party arcana, you might even want to consider (warding)--it'll let you enhance your armor through your arcane pool (though the special ability selection isn't great), letting you spend your cash on enchantments instead of increasing the enhancement bonus.

Ehh... Sorta. Being so used to it, I generally assume that, whatever my character level, that they'll have either no, or extremely limited magical gear. So when theory crafting I lean heavily towards making the build as solid and self sufficient as possible, and never relies on specific magical items unless I know I can start with it.

As for warding... This, very much, sounds like something I should pick up. Buffing my armor just seems excellent. Not only that, it is VERY much in line with my character. (She's a researcher/artifact hunter, obsessed (as her Black Blade is) with finding and acquiring arcane knowledge and magical artifacts.)

Well there is one other possibility for Int to Intimidate, though I don't know if it'll fit your character any better; Clever Wordplay lets you replace Cha with Int on any one Cha-based skill.

Hmm... I like this, and will certainly have to consider it. Unfortunately, this likely would not come online until much later as for the first 10 levels I will be building the core of this build up, focusing first on expanding the number of spells I can use/prepare at any given moment.

With the help of you guys, my first 10 levels are built out:
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Dancing Dervish
5: Wand Wielder
B5: Spell Scars
A6: Flamboyant Arcana
7: Intensified
9: Lunge
A9: Acc. Strike

As I stated initially, this build is a jack of trades, so versatility is #1 (Hence my drive to have as many spells at the ready as possible). Not only is she the groups caster, but is also needs to support as a frontliner... So I dont mind not perfecting one aspect or another.

To turn Frostbite (or any other cold spell) into a vicious debuffing monster, I would need to invest at least 3 more feats. Metamagic Rime, Additional Traits, and Enforcer.

Lvl 11, I could take both Enforcer and Additional Traits, then at 12, I could actually make extremely good utility of Versatile Combatant. Even if my +3 just never improved, I would still get 3 rounds of any feat of my choosing.

Thoughts? (This would fill out the next 3 levels)

EDIT:
I guess I could sacrifice my reactionary trait by retraining it, but I do very much like my Initiative. But this combo would be fully online by lvl 11.

EDIT2: Thinking on it though, it may not really fit my character (were expected to actually RP who we make). Though she is Chaotic Good, she really isnt about bullying others to get what she wants. I would have to ask if this type of setup could merely be a force of character, a scary looking Tiefling intimidating them by proxy, but I dont think it will fly.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yes, since the Magus doesn't have actions to spare on Cackle (and therefore EE's main appeal, i.e. that it works even on a successful save, doesn't really help you).

Also, if you're not a Bladebound, look into getting a Conductive weapon.

I'll see if I can retcon it. I haven't used it yet besides preemptively hexing allies to make them immune for if my character was dominated (long story), so it shouldnt be a problem. Why would I get conductive, to conduct the hexes through?