Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It doesn't give you the SLAs, but its worth noting what SLAs the form would have because Fey Form lets you auto still/silence the spell when you cast it, plus the spell cannot be countered.

[Kurald Galain]

That's fair.

I've also just realized that the Nature-bound Magus is an excellent one- or two-level dip for most other melee classes. You'll get spell combat, cast from two different lists, and a free familiar as part of the bargain. At levels 1 through 4, a familiar is better than your arcane pool enchant ability.

[BornFlunky]

Ninjaxenomorph beat me to it -- I just mentioned the SLA availability for that reason. A lot of fey seem to be built around ambushing and sneak attacks -- since a few sneak attack options are listed in the guide, I thought it was worth consideration. Fey Form II really does seem like a devastating option for the Natural Attack Magus for those reasons and more; I'm a bit torn on whether or not some of those options beat Monstrous Physique at high levels, now.

Putting Fey Form II aside, though, the Boggle, Kamaitachi, Rusalka, and Ijiraq all seem like pretty solid natural attack options available from Fey Form I at level 10, even without bleed. At the very least, it seems they'd be on par with the Tikbalang or Witchwyrd at the same level, if not a bit better.

[Coniugatio]

Since you didn't mention them in your original guide: What do you think of making a merfolk magus?

[Kurald Galain]

Since you didn't mention them in your original guide: What do you think of making a merfolk magus?

Their ability scores and AC bonus make them a strong pick. The only problem is lack of land speed, so I suggest taking the Strongtail racial ability and the Fleet feat. Or play at a high enough level that you can fly at need.

[Chitoh]

Hi, I'm trying to build an Archer Eldritch and I do not know where to start, any recommendations?

Ty

[Kurald Galain]

Hi, I'm trying to build an Archer Eldritch and I do not know where to start, any recommendations?

Yes, that's what the guide is for

I recommend you start by picking a blue- or green-rated race you like, then distribute scores as suggested for a dex build (because, you know, archer), then look for three or four blue- or green-rated feats you like. Then post the result.

[tadkins]

Weird question, was just something I was thinking about earlier...

Is it possible to build a Gun-toting Magus?

[Kurald Galain]

Is it possible to build a Gun-toting Magus?

Yes. Despite its name, the Eldritch Archer works best with firearms such as the musket, which make attacks against touch AC.

[tadkins]

Yes. Despite its name, the Eldritch Archer works best with firearms such as the musket, which make attacks against touch AC.

Oh awesome, thanks! That's precisely what I was thinking about too. "Something like the Eldritch Archer but with guns." But that's a lot more convenient. :)

[Kurald Galain]

Looking over the Potions & Poisons book, I find that most of the content of this books are either consumables that are way too expensive (seriously, why would anyone pay 1500 for a one-shot elixir when scrolls are around 150?), or lower-level variants of existing spells. The problem with the latter is that they tend to already exist. For instance, the book prints a level-3 version of Dimension Door with shorter range, but whoever wrote this forgot that the Storm Step spell already does that. And there are numerous feats for grippli and nagaji who want to spit venom at people. Overall I don't see any particular stand-outs for the Magus in thie book.

[tadkins]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be magically skilled to use a scroll? Whereas any dummy can chug a potion?

Magi would have no issues there but fighters and the like would still find those potions useful.

[khadgar567]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be magically skilled to use a scroll? Whereas any dummy can chug a potion?

Magi would have no issues there but fighters and the like would still find those potions useful.

exacly right tadkins

[Sayt]

Pots and Poisons also opens up spells for Alchemists, but this is a Magus guide thread, first and foremost.

[Kurald Galain]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be magically skilled to use a scroll? Whereas any dummy can chug a potion?

Sure. But regular potions are between 50 and 300 gp, and this book has several at 1500 gp that aren't noticeably stronger than their cheaper counterparts.

[longanxy]

Must say that Orator is a great feat for any magus who needed social skill, like in PFS or some social-intensed AP, or for players who likes both social interacting and magus it self. It's not full use of diplomacy, but compinaison with really high bluff, intimidate and multiple languages makes you shining in an additional 50% of times.

If a magi is nor dex build nor one slash one killed shocking grasp build, they can afford those two feats (orator and prereq: skill focus lingustics)

Magi needs to spend two trait for diplomacy class skill+ int mod. That's expensive, especially if you need another trait like magical lineage or magic knack.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Fey Form spell and Shackle spells; and Murksight and Gift of Consumption hexes.

Magi needs to spend two trait for diplomacy class skill+ int mod. That's expensive

Yes it is. So I don't get why your proposed solution is spending two feats on it

[longanxy]

I've explained why in my last post. But it's my plaisir to explique again. Maybe you should consider the quality-price of those two feats before simply judging it.

Magi don't need much ressources to build a "considerable" combat capacity. It's not a full combat game, right? As I said, its great for players who likes BOTH MAGI AND SOCIAL INTERACTING, and there is certainly no better alternative. It's like spending one feat for +4 or spending two feats for +20. Spending THOSE two feats worth much for charactors like wizards or magi, who can have a high int attribute, have neither diplomacy class skill nor charisma, and have some not so feat intensed build (the most important).

Those two feats makes a great deal in games such as PFS or social oriented AP/modules, especially with human or half-elf, and probably, a parrot familiar which granted an additional +3.

I must submitted that now I prone to lying to NPCs while gaining advantages during a social encounter, while being able to discribe all thassilonian or osiriani ancient gryphs and enjoying of being the team's face.

My first charactor in this concept reachs level 8 months ago (PFS), he's NOT a fighting machine, but handles fight stuffs as well as many skill challenge. I used two similar (but differents in combat style) charactors to play other house games, one killed in an ambush and the other lives and leads well.

[Kurald Galain]

It's like spending one feat for +4 or spending two feats for +20.

Please show the math on that +20, noting that the Magus doesn't have linguistics as a class skill, and that the Orator feat only applies to one out of the four listed uses for Diplomacy, and one out of six specified uses for Bluff.

[longanxy]

Please show the math on that +20, noting that the Magus doesn't have linguistics as a class skill, and that the Orator feat only applies to one out of the four listed uses for Diplomacy, and one out of six specified uses for Bluff.

OK my bad you got the point, my charactor have one level dip in occultist that gives me linguistic class skill. Beside of it, it's 50% time of use of diplomacy and
90% time of use of bluff and intimidate, if not used in combat: many of the ways of use of bluff are really not common in campaign, you know it but you just avoid it. Another point of mine is one trait with linguistic as class skill is no big deal, because you can still choose the one magic trait, it's far different than two trait.

Here is the math: Magi's int modifier is usually 4 (5 or more at higher level) higher than cha modifier, that makes an addition of (+4 attribute +3 class skill +3 feat) x 230% = +23.

Additionally, at higher level, the +3 feat becomes +6 and you probably have a parrot that makes all thos social skills +22 with an ioun stone at level 7, which makes reduce any beyond-planned situation in social encounters to the minimum.

Remember that Magi also lacks of skill point, so those feats makes greater use to magi than to, for example, investigators.

Hard to convince peoples with ideas that wasn't on their original way of though, even with open and brilliant peoples, but I hope you can consider it before fast reply and deny. Whatever I really appreciate your guide and give my supplementary suggestion as what I gave before, to peoples who needs, and I think it woudn't help if I reply to any short-judging-denying replies again.

[Aldrakan]

Another point of mine is one trait with linguistic as class skill is no big deal, because you can still choose the one magic trait, it's far different than two trait.

So you're now spending two feats and a trait. For someone who dismissed Shocking Grasp builds your suggestion curiously treats not being able to get "one magic trait" (could it be Magical Lineage?) as too high a cost to pay.

Here is the math: Magi's int modifier is usually 4 (5 or more at higher level) higher than cha modifier, that makes an addition of (+4 attribute +3 class skill +3 feat) x 230% = +23.

What is this? This isn't the math. This isn't even math. It's numbers and symbols reminiscent of math. This is gibberish. You are showing us gibberish.

Additionally, at higher level, the +3 feat becomes +6 and you probably have a parrot that makes all thos social skills +22 with an ioun stone at level 7, which makes reduce any beyond-planned situation in social encounters to the minimum.

So you're also locking in your familiar for this. And now you're buying an ioun stone.

I note you appear to have moved from demonstrating the benefits gained from taking those two feats to showing your total bonus.

[longanxy]

I repeated again and again:
1. This is situational, but great in such situations.
2. It cost something, but worth the cost.
3. The math part didn't includ parrot nor ioun stone. With familiar and ioun stone, it's about 35 additional total skill bonus. Something easily multipled and optimized is also one of its advantages.

Please don't replying like I was say "it is a golden choice for every one without any cost", and tell me that's gibberish.

Or are you just power gamer who never thought about a magus who talk and represent the party?

[Kurald Galain]

There's really no need to be insulting to people who disagree with you.

[Florian]

Or are you just power gamer who never thought about a magus who talk and represent the party?

I _am_ just a powergamer who lets the dedicated "Face" of the party do their work without trying to steal their thunder, while I'm happy to do the killing and be good at it.

Now if that "Face" is present, who am I to infringe on the chosen role?

So think about it and what this guide is for: Magus in a character in a party of four, clear roles distribution, be good at your role in the party.

What you're going on and on about could be seen in a favorable light of "Can a Magus step in when there's no Face", or "How can a Magus infringe on the role of a Face with the least effort?".

[longanxy]

There's really no need to be insulting to people who disagree with you.

Agreed. But the people I'm supposed to insult by saying "powergamer" insulted me first by qualifying my calcul as "gibberish", without any explaination.

I'll said it's understandable reposite.

To still say something constructive about the other "I_am_just a power gamer" reply:

About the "face" problem, even in a five adventurers party, you sometimes can be the face without stealing other roles (when there is no "NATURAL FACE"), for exemple, in a team composed by a Frontliner that is not paladin, a Main Caster that is not charisma based, a Healer like cleric who lacks of skill point, and a Scout who don't have charisma neither, plus you, a magus.

In this really common case, or you or the main caster must use intelligence to be the face. Both is better, to avoid failure.

In a 4 players party, there is even more possibility that there is no such a natural face.

And then Magus, as a multi-talented class, often takes the place of those natural team face, like bards, inquisitors or investigators. A structurel fact that is not known by many peoples.

[Florian]

That might be true, but that is not the point of a "Guide to the Magus in a regular party".

While I actually agree with you, we´d need a (more or less) commonly accepted "Guide to the roles" and a "Guide to PFS" as a reference point in the first place, Maybe we´d need some guides to the different APs, too? I mean, did you know that a Shocking Grasp Magus is by far the worst build for the Wrath of the Righteous AP due to demons being the most common enemy type and being outright immune?

So, no, a guide can handle more than only the "raw class" and maybe make note of specialities outside of that.

[Ellrin]

Agreed. But the people I'm supposed to insult by saying "powergamer" insulted me first by qualifying my calcul as "gibberish", without any explaination.

As a neutral party in this discussion, I'd like to point out that your "calcul" was pretty gibberishy. Perhaps it makes more sense when the thought process behind it is fully laid out, but the equation you gave is hardly transparent. Where are you even getting a multiplier from?

I get that you're trying to come at this with the goal of consolidating these skills' functions, but your argument in support of its hypothetical superiority to a more piecemeal approach to a social magus is a bit all over the place, and more than a little difficult to follow.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's some math.

Level 7 Magus with diplomacy skill + skill focus + additional traits feat gets a modifier of +17, and can get +21 by casting Assumed Likeness. He can only make about half of all social checks since he doesn't have Bluff.
Level 7 Magus with linguistics + skill focus + orator gets a mod of +13. He can only make about half of all social checks because Orator only works with certain usages of the skills.

Masterwork item, ioun stone, or familiar bonus apply to both equally. So while party face is certainly a viable role for the Magus, this shows that the Orator feat is just not the best way to do that.

[longanxy]

As a neutral party in this discussion, I'd like to point out that your "calcul" was pretty gibberishy. Perhaps it makes more sense when the thought process behind it is fully laid out, but the equation you gave is hardly transparent. Where are you even getting a multiplier from?

In my reply #740, I explained:

“Beside of it, it's 50% time of use of diplomacy and
90% time of use of bluff and intimidate, if not used in combat: many of the ways of use of bluff are really not common in campaign, you know it but you just avoid it”

50%+90%+90%=230%, that's where the "x230%" comes. It's not a precise multiplier, but still reasonable.

Here's some math.

Level 7 Magus with diplomacy skill + skill focus + additional traits feat gets a modifier of +17, and can get +21 by casting Assumed Likeness. He can only make about half of all social checks since he doesn't have Bluff.
Level 7 Magus with linguistics + skill focus + orator gets a mod of +13. He can only make about half of all social checks because Orator only works with certain usages of the skills.

Thank you for replying seriously.

Magus with int diplomacy generally don't take skill focus, and magus with orator can take a trait to make linguistic a class skill AND another important trait without taking additional trait. Assumed likeness is a will disbelief 2nd level spell, which makes it expensive and not reliable, so it is not appropriate to bring it directly in the calcul.

Orator is not only "about half of all checks", because it's almost all the common social use of bluff and intimidate, and if you succeed at changing people's attitude toward friendly, the DC of making request becomes really low - so it's even more than half of diplomacy itself. Experienced adventurer makes rarely request without changing other's attitude. I must say it's still humble to say it's just "3/4 of all checks"

As a result of those two point, it's about "+14 for 1/2 of all social checks plus one free feat" or "+17 for 3/4 of all social checks". Giving up one feat for +15% succed chance (additional +3 means +15% in d20s) and 50% of usage coverage (1/2 to 3/4) is still a good deal.

[Ellrin]

50%+90%+90%=230%, that's where the "x230%" comes. It's not a precise multiplier, but still reasonable.