Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Ellrin]

Do they get 6 natural attacks?

I did some calculating, I come up with a 550 damage average per round (level 20) once you're set up with haste, monstrous physique 2, vine strike and chill touch. I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement.
Oh yeah, you'd have to pick up bane and devoted blade arcana and of course an amulet of mighty fists. And the obligatory belt of strength and some manual of strength +5.

I'm pretty sure bonuses to damage from increasing size, even if it's only an effective increase, don't stack, even if they come from different sources. Don't remember where that rule comes from offhand, though.

[g51503john]

paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?

As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes 「deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,」 「your damage die type increases by one step,」 and similar language). They don't stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield's effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

Impact weapon and Strong Jaw spell are effective size increases.

[Kurald Galain]

I did some calculating, I come up with

So show us the calculations; one number is neither a calculation nor a comparison. Note that both Vine Strike and Arcane Pool apply to only one of your claws, not to all of them. And you really should account for hit rate and crit rate, because the build you're comparing to has a 15-20 crit range and you don't.

[Kurald Galain]

There are some new books up at Archives of Nethys: Taldor the First Empire, Inner Sea Taverns, and Merchant's Manifest. The first two have nothing that stands out for a Magus. The third has a few items that may be useful,

• Liquid glass is a cheap bonus to all your damage rolls, and sounds like prime banning material for PFS.
• Rimeshaper Gloves have a useless activated ability, but give you cold resistance for cheap.
• Alabaster Trapping protects you from one touch or natural attack per day in a funny fashion.

If you think I missed something particularly useful, please share it here.

[Xondoure]

I'm back, now with questions about Martial Training! Namely, which disciplines do you think serve the magus best? I've narrowed down the options somewhat but am having a hard time choosing just one (I get that a second runs into redundancies)

Stand outs from my limited research + Kurald's tips:

Spoiler

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Golden Lion Discipline:
Encouraging Roar Boost For one round, all allies gain a +2 morale bonus to all attacks and damage.
Hunting Party Strike Make an attack, grant an adjacent ally an attack of opportunity against the same enemy.
Pro: prereq for Golden Lion Style which is awesome.

Shattered Mirror Discipline:
Dopplehanger Dance Stance You can follow when opponents make 5-foot steps.
Funhouse Waltz Boost Your speed increases by 10 feet and you can turn while running and charging for one round.
Pro: pre-req for Shattered Mirror Style and the stance is Step Up so that saves a feat.

Scarlet Throne Discipline:
Scarlet Einhander Stance +2 shield bonus to AC and +1d6 damage on attacks when fighting with one weapon.
Scything Strike Strike Make a melee attack on two adjacent enemies as a single attack.
Pro: appears to be the strongest prereq for Tactical Rush. Scything strike says make an attack against two targets, so I'm assuming it can be used with Spellstrike.

Veiled Moon Discipline:
Dimensional Strike Strike For a brief moment, the disciple becomes difficult to perceive; resolving the attack against the target as if they were flat-footed.
Leaping Spirit Dance Stance This stance grants the disciple a +2 to AC and a +2 to Reflex saves.
Pro: Also qualifies for Tactical Rush. Strength magus could use the reflex boost.

Cursed Razor Discipline:
Aura of Misfortune Stance Opponents within close range take a –2 penalty on saving throws.
Luck Shifting Boost Gain a +1 luck bonus to your AC for each cursed opponent within medium range (maximum +5).
Spilled Salt Counter An opponent within medium range takes a –4 penalty on an attack roll or skill check
Pro: Flavor and mechanics wise it seems to match great with a Hexblade. -2 to saving throws against cursed spellstrikes, unleash the boost when needed. Alternatively Spilled Salt offers a more reliable bonus against one attack, which is probably more consistent in a pinch.

And finally there's...
Riven Hourglass Discipline:
Clockwatcher Counter You can act during a surprise round in which you would not normally be able to act.
Sands of Time Stance Stance You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Reflex Saves.
Pros: Never be surprised again and +2 to Initiative. Seems like it might be better suited for a Dex magus, but the reflex boost is definitely sweeter on the other builds.

Thoughts and suggestions? Any disciplines/maneuvers/style feats I dismissed that I shouldn't have or added that underwhelm?

[BloodredAi]

Anti-magic field, perhaps, for the spells from other lists? Lategame spell is lategame, but i can certainly see it being useful if you know you'll be fighting magical villains. It also doesn't stop you from casting spells, although it renders them effectless... spellstrike Arcane Mark/Brand/Other Touch Cantrip should still allow you to get free attacks in, even if you won't get their effects (not like Arcane Mark's effect matters), if i'm reading things right?

Not entirely sure how it works alongside Bladebound's Black Blade, although i'm pretty sure it counts self-sustaining like a Construct, and hence isn't suppressed; i'm also pretty sure you can't enchant it with your arcane pool as that's Su.

Still... it certainly gives you options.
-If you know you're up against magic, you can prepare this to neuter them. You lose the versatility of your own magic in the affected area, but you still have quite the edge against most other casters physically, i'd assume?
-If you know you're not against magic, you simply don't prepare the spell.

It is something you'd have to spend a Spell Blending or Greater Spell Access on, unless you can learn it from a Wizard's spellbook, and doesn't come online until level 16, but neither do your other 6th level spells, so...

Seems like a somewhat situational Greater Dispel Magic, but completely neuters most opposing casters for it's duration.

[Kurald Galain]

If you want to shut down casters, the spell Call the Void may be an easier solution.

[BloodredAi]

That's... actually a surprisingly great alternative, especially considering it's fairly low level. As long as you make sure your teammates aren't adjacent to you, you don't lock them outta spells, you also aren't locked outta spells. It's extra damage every turn and causes Fatigue. The only thing it really doesn't do is suppress buffs that've already been cast/prevent more from being cast on the guy you're attacking.

Edit: Stupidly, i don't know how the heck i missed it in the guide. Ah well.

[Duwath]

Great guide. Great thread. I am preparing for my first tabletop game play and this guide has been very helpful.

Quick question, as I am finishing off my theorycraft build, it feels like spell perfection on Frostbite (with Magical Lineage on Frostbite as well) could lead to a 3rd level spell: (Empower(Rime(Maximized(Frostbite))). My math tells me at 15th level I would have 15 charges of 63 points of damage. A boost from 31.5 to 63 comes from Spell Perfection doubling Empower's effects in my math.

Do I have that correct?

[Arkhios]

This is bit of a long-term plan for me, as I'm still in the middle of another campaign, and I have other plans for it, so I can't/won't use it yet.

Anyway, I was thinking of multiclassing an Unchained Scaled Fist with Eldritch Scion/Staff Magus, probably going with Draconic Bloodline for thematic reasons. Which break-points would you recommend. For the sake of build, let's assume it's viable for Pathfinder Society (20pts' point-buy, no 3rd-party, and non-evil)
As for the race, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a Dual Talent Human, with Strength as my primary ability. Going into Dragon Disciple is a possibility but not exactly neccessary.

TIA!

[BloodredAi]

Hmmm.... have Wyrwoods been considered as a Magus race?

At the very least, they're a Small +dex, +int race with a crapton of built-in immunities (and other good stuff) due to being a construct, and can sacrifice their darkvision for Make Whole as a SLA that they can use to heal themselves (or other objects/constructs) and scales with level (up to 5d6 of healing).

With 3rd party options they can increase their tankiness by sacrificing their base speed (+20 HP, -20 base speed, becomes Medium sized) and dexterity bonus (+2 natural armor, DR 1/magic, -5ft base speed; racial dex bonus becomes 0). Not sure how this affects stuff like Flight (through spells or the hex), although i'm pretty sure Magus's mobility options make up for it's slowness otherwise, at least somewhat. Mind you, these two alternate racials also don't replace base racials, so you still have access to stuff like Make Whole SLA. Even without Magus's mobility options, it still works as a Int control build that can tank extremely well at low levels (although i get the feeling it won't be as outright amazing at higher levels)

Another 3rd party option allows you to gain Detect Magic as a constant SLA, and Psychic Tracking + Detect Alignment as once-per-day SLAs at the cost of your dark and low light vision, but i'm not sure that'd be useful outside of the circumstances of particular campaigns, and does lock you out of Make Whole SLA.

In an absolute best case scenario...
you can increase their stats without limit, give them proficiencies through built-in weapons, and grant yourself a few unusual abilities by using construct modification rules, as long as you have enough downtime and cash.
...but that's an edge case that most DMs wouldn't allow.

Spoiler: Edited in a handful of references

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They aren't linked properly because this account is too new/doesn't have enough posts yet. I'll fix it when i can.

Wyrwoods: d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/wyrwood-20-rp/

Constructs: d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Construct

Their immunities/other relevant traits in particular: prnt.sc/jcfjpy
Pretty sure the 'proficient with no armor' is overwritten by their Class's proficiencies when used as a playable character. the 'following table' mentioned in the fourth from last bullet point is actually above the list, not below.

Building and Modifying Constructs: d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs

[Arkain]

On the flipside, you're a construct. That means your immunities also make you immune to beneficial morale bonuses, like Heroism or bardic music. And while you have 10 bonus hit points due to your size you are outright destroyed at 0 and cannot be raised at all. A magus with 14 constitution also has 10 "bonus" hit points at level 5 (and more after that) in addition to a little "buffer" of negatives. Since you're probably going to be at the front a lot it's very likely that you'll get hit quite a bit, which is exacerbated by your limited access to healing. Admittedly, you might be able to use (Greater) Infernal Healing to offset that a bit and/or use Spell Blending to pick up (Greater) Make Whole as a spell. Also, it's a 20 RP race, which might cause some GMs to deny it.

I don't think it's a bad race, but it's certainly tricky.

[Mithril Leaf]

On the flipside, you're a construct. That means your immunities also make you immune to beneficial morale bonuses, like Heroism or bardic music. And while you have 10 bonus hit points due to your size you are outright destroyed at 0 and cannot be raised at all. A magus with 14 constitution also has 10 "bonus" hit points at level 5 (and more after that) in addition to a little "buffer" of negatives. Since you're probably going to be at the front a lot it's very likely that you'll get hit quite a bit, which is exacerbated by your limited access to healing. Admittedly, you might be able to use (Greater) Infernal Healing to offset that a bit and/or use Spell Blending to pick up (Greater) Make Whole as a spell. Also, it's a 20 RP race, which might cause some GMs to deny it.

I don't think it's a bad race, but it's certainly tricky.

Just for the record, I have no idea why, but so very many people think Bardic Music is Morale. While you are correct that Constructs can't benefit due to it being Mind-Affecting, Inspire Courage which is the main one you want is Competence for the Attack and Damage bonus.

[Arkain]

Just for the record, I have no idea why, but so very many people think Bardic Music is Morale. While you are correct that Constructs can't benefit due to it being Mind-Affecting, Inspire Courage which is the main one you want is Competence for the Attack and Damage bonus.

Oh right, my bad. So generally speaking, it works. However, while the parts most are interested in (i.e. to hit and damage) are competence, the saving throw bonus from Inspire Courage would be morale. Same goes for Inspire Heroics, which also grants a morale bonus to saving throws. I'd almost wager that some might argue that you can't be only half-inspired either, but that's another discussion entirely

[Kurald Galain]

Quick question, as I am finishing off my theorycraft build, it feels like spell perfection on Frostbite (with Magical Lineage on Frostbite as well) could lead to a 3rd level spell: (Empower(Rime(Maximized(Frostbite))). My math tells me at 15th level I would have 15 charges of 63 points of damage. A boost from 31.5 to 63 comes from Spell Perfection doubling Empower's effects in my math.

It is indeed a 3rd level spell slot. However, Empower Spell does not give a "set numerical bonus" therefore this isn't doubled by Spell Perfection.

Anyway, I was thinking of multiclassing an Unchained Scaled Fist with Eldritch Scion/Staff Magus, probably going with Draconic Bloodline for thematic reasons.

I suppose one level of Scaled Fist and everything else in Magus. That gives you one bonus feat, IUS, stunning fist, and cha to AC. I don't see a lot of benefits in staying with monk.

Hmmm.... have Wyrwoods been considered as a Magus race?

Any +dex +int race is at least a viable Magus, yes. I'm not listing every single rarely-used race in the guide, though.

[Worth]

As a Dex based Blade-bound (home-brew campaign) if you had the opportunity to take Deadly Agility as a feat, or starting at 5th level use one of the +1s from the Arcane Pool enchant to add Agility to your weapon, which makes the most sense? I'd prefer to save feats if I can get Dex to Damage via the enchant but that means I'm burning 2 of my bonus enhancements right off the bat (Keen and Agile). If I run into creatures with DR I'll possibly have to drop one of the two from my blade.

Thoughts? Currently I'm getting +4 from Dex, and +2 from STR. My Dex will obviously climb as I level.

Thanks for any feedback!

[Kurald Galain]

Your str is unusually high for a dex-based Magus; generally it would be around 9, not 14. That means that what you're asking me is whether to spend one feat on dealing +2 damage (which is comparable to Weapon Specialization, a lacklustre feat) or to sacrifice a +1/+1 from arcane pool to instead get +0/+2 (which is weaker than making it flaming or frost).

The answer is that neither of them is particularly worth it at this level. First work on getting a +7 dex mod (five more than your strength mod) and then these options become interesting.

At a guess, your stats are like that because you're putting power attack on a dex build, which is counterproductive. If so, I'd suggest swapping that out and putting that 14 in a different ability, and then look into getting dex-to-damage one way or the other. HTH!

[Worth]

Hey Kurald, thanks for replying!

Actually my Str is that high because we are using rolls for attributes and not point buy. I don't have power attack as a feat. At this point I'm simply using Weapon Finesse (Elf, so no 2nd feat yet). I'm just trying to plan my build futher out. Right now it doesn't make a huge difference either way, but I'll be building my Dex as I level so eventually I'll want to Dex to damage one way or another. Just not sure if getting it via a feat, or by burning a +1 to get it.

[Kurald Galain]

Right. I'd say feat, just not yet (bear in mind that you get bonus feats, and that arcana are also sort-of feats). Around level 9 you'll likely have a spare feat; at lower levels the bonus from +dex is still small so you can do without.

[Worth]

That's the way I was leaning, but the idea of using part of my enchantments just occurred to me to so figured I'd ask.

Appreciate the feedback, thank you!

[Rando Savage]

So I'm playing a Bladebound/Spell Dancer/Singer of Blades magus. I know I cant enchant my blade with my pool but the Black Blade can do energy damage via energy attunement. Can I use my arcane pool to fuel the blade that way? I know its not optimal but just in case I need to do some energy damage right then.

[Kurald Galain]

So I'm playing a Bladebound/Spell Dancer/Singer of Blades magus. I know I cant enchant my blade with my pool but the Black Blade can do energy damage via energy attunement. Can I use my arcane pool to fuel the blade that way? I know its not optimal but just in case I need to do some energy damage right then.

No. Only the blade's own pool can be used for energy attunement; the other archetypes have nothing to do with that restriction.

[Rando Savage]

That's fine. It wasn't anything I was putting a lot into but just nice if i didnt have an action to cast or was using Line in the Sand against some elementals or something.

Your guide has been awesome help as far as playing a magus and being useful in and out of combat. Thanks much.

[TiaC]

A trick I've been working with recently is an unarmed Magus with either or both of Hexcrafter or VMC Void School Wizard as an impressive debuffer. The idea is to use Hex/School Strike to stack extra riders on your spell combat attacks, which can tank enemy saves. Combat Stamina lets you use Hex/School Strike as a free action for 2 stamina, so they don't interfere with your other swifts and can even be used together. If you really want weapons, Ascetic Style will let you use them.

The Hexes this can be used with are obvious, Slumber, Evil Eye, Misfortune...

With the VMC, at 7th level, you get the 1st level school powers of the void school. This gives you a scaling bonus to saves against spells and SLAs, but more importantly for this trick, you get Reveal Weakness:

When you activate this school power as a standard action, you select a foe within 30 feet. That creature takes a penalty to its AC and on saving throws equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum –1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus.

All together, this can give a magus some of the hardest save DCs in the game.

[Seto]

Hey, I'm currently playing a Magus (of the STR/INT based variety), and I wanted to say thanks for the guide, it's been useful in building!

[Worth]

Circling back around to a Dex based magus (which probably answers my question right there), it looks like there will be an opportunity to add a D6 to a single statistic coming up soon. My first inclination was first to just put it straight into Dex. Bonus to AC, to Hit (finesse), and eventually to damage is pretty hard to beat. What about Int or Con? Int will give me bonus spells, and extra skills while Con gives me much needed health (as a meleer). If my stat distribution looks like Dex>Int>>Con does it make sense to pump anything besides dexterity?

[Kurald Galain]

If my stat distribution looks like Dex>Int>>Con does it make sense to pump anything besides dexterity?

As you suggest, not really. But you can put some FCB points into hit points, and/or take toughness; getting more hit points isn't exactly hard.

[Worth]

Yeah, that's about what I figured. Honestly, it's pretty generous reward so anything selected would be great but I was curious as to whether i was overlooking anything by just going straight into dex. I've got a slight con modifier bonus so I've been sinking my FCB points into Magus Arcana fractions.

Thanks again!

[fdbryant3]

Arcana

Thanks for the guide and sorry if I'm bring up something already discussed in the threads somewhere. As I am new to the Magus class (and casters in general) I've been using to build my character. I recently made L3 and have been debating on my Arcana and Feats. I eventually settled on Close Touch, and Create Wondrous Items so I could afford a Pearl of Power to preserve my Arcane Pool when I get Spell Recall (and nothing else was really appealing to me, plus I'll probably craft a Headband of Vast Intelligence). However Spell Scars was brought to my attention, and I realize it wasn't even in the guide. Is there a reason it wasn't included - to me it seems it should be a green or blue level Arcana? I think it should work with spell combat and spellstrike (since scrolls take standard action to cast, but your hand is free because it is a scar might need a GM ruling though) and you can have up to 18 levels of your spells that you don't slot (or backups of ones that you do) at the ready. Unless I am missing something seems really useful a low levels (if you can afford to make them) letting you have more spells at the ready, and still useful in the higher levels keeping your rarely used spells at the ready.

Anyway just wanted to bring this to your attention in the hope of getting it added to help future Magi.

[Worth]

Spell Scars is in the guide. It's under 3rd Level, Toolbox Arcana.