[Noob][Fighter]A little help about Weapons and Stats

[Kharannos]

Hello everyone !

I wanted to ask you about something I've being reading about in about weapons for a Fighter: Heavy Blades and Axes(or Hammer).

Heavy Blades are really a "symbol" to fighters in all games.
Long, Broad or Bastard swords are weapon all games use as stardard weapon for warrior-like types.

In the other hand, D&D 4e consider those swords as Heavy Blades, that use Dexterity as major stat.
What really bugs me off is that I feel I need points I don't have to create a Heavy Blade Fighter.

People already stated that a *good* fighter should have Strength and Constitution as primary and secondary stats (maxing damage, hit and survivability).
Is there ANY advantage to use a Heavy Blade instead of an Axe, for example? Or a Hammer? (Constitution weapons)

What I can see:

Pros of Constitution Weapons (Hammers and Axes):
2 major stats, instead of 3, meaning they will be greater.
A Battle axe hits harder (1d10, instead of a Longsword's 1d8)
More damage: Melee attacks are made with Strength, not Dexterity.
Axe Mastery is awesome (if you roll a 1 in a damage roll, re-roll it).

Pros of Dexterity Weapons (Heavy Blades):
More accuracy: A Longsword is Proficiency +2, instead of the Battleaxe's +2.
Heavy Blade Opportunity at lvl 11.
Higher reflexes overall, because you have higher Dex.
(Not sure if Dexterity is used to limit a number of Attacks of Opportunity each round. If it is used, than that's a Pro)

I'm not sure 1 accuracy is enough to make me lower my str or cons to use a Longsword, even more considering that I'm actually losing accuracy (my melee basic attacks check Strength vs AC).

One last comment: I can use a Heavy Blade with a low Dexterity score. Since attacks are made with Strength (even with Heavy Blades) and there aren't many Power using Heavy Blade that require +Dexterity rolls, I could use a Heavy Blade ignoring that I'm losing a minor benefit (the +dex bonus).

Can someone give me advice on that subject?

Thanks in advance !

[NecroRebel]

You may have misinterpreted the advice regarding a Fighter's Constitution score. You don't want a low Con on a frontliner, but having a high Con isn't really necessary. If you're going for heavy blades, you'd probably run a 12 Con at level 1. For a Strength-based character, it really doesn't do much worthwhile otherwise. Con is a tertiary stat for most Fighters - it isn't practically unnecessary like Int or Cha, but most builds will emphasize Str and Dex or Wis.

+1 the attack rolls is absolutely considered to be worth it, though depending on build it might be merely good instead of excellent. If you miss, you tend to do nothing at all that round, so hitting as often as possible is essential. This is particularly true of attacks that cause status effects, which typically aren't carried through on misses like damage sometimes is, so if you use a lot of those it's even more important to be accurate.

In any case, you'd generally want the secondary stat for feat qualification anyway, so you might consider simply deciding which feats you'll want by level 30 when you first build the character and choose your stat array so that you'll just barely qualify for those feats after the level 11 and 21 bonuses. You might also forget about it if you think it unlikely that the character will ever see the levels where they can get those feats - it's pointless to plan for your epic-level feats when your group is unlikely to get past level 10, after all.

[GPuzzle]

Your MBAs will check Weapon+STR, so they still work at high levels because all modifiers apply (a level 11 Fighter with 21 STR and 17 WIS and a +2 Magic Longsword as well as a Fighter Weapon Talent, Heavy Blade Expertise and Combat Superiority will have +4 (STR)+3 (WIS)+2 (Bonus)+3 (Proficiency)+1 (Fighter Weapon Talent)+2 (Heavy Blade Expertise)+5 (1/2 level) for +20 on OAs).

Also, it's not so much about hitting harder, but rather hitting more. Most of your powers make enemies stay put if you hit them, so you need to hit them.

Hammers and Heavy Blades are probably the two best, with some gimmicky Spear or Flail builds right behind them, because Hammers can get some ridiculous bonuses to movement and punishment (At-Will Daze is a wonderful thing) and Heavy Blades just hit more and more on top of being able to come up with some great rearrangements on the battlefield thanks to Heavy Blade Opportunity. Spears and Flails can do some crazy stuff if you can get movement right, but you need to get movement in the first place.

[NomGarret]

Remember that it's Dex secondary, so it only really comes into play on certain power riders and feat prerequisites. Strength still governs the bulk of your attacks.

[Kharannos]

Also, it's not so much about hitting harder, but rather hitting more.

Yes, I understood that part, what I can't understand is why a Heavy Blade is so much better than an Axe...

Considering a 18 STR Fighter using both weapons, the Axe Fighter would hit with
1d20 1d20 + 4(str) + 2 (Proficiency) = 1d20 + 6

while the Longsword Fighter would hit with:
1d20 + 4(str) + 3 (Proficiency) = 1d20 + 7

The one and only benefit for using the Longsword is 1 proficiency bonus to hit.
Another thing: that extra "to-hit" don't even depends on your Dex (10 dex or 18 dex would receive ONE and only ONE point to hit, because it is from proficiency, so it doesn't scale).

Yes, "to-hit" is awesome, but it is ONE point. And not the "1 point that will become 2 points when you reach level X", It's just a ONE point.
I'm just not sure it is ALL THAT STUFF you guys are talking about.

As far as I can see, putting points in Dex isn't good at all. Aside from the Reflex defense, It is totally useless. I could easily dump this stats, even using a Heavy Blade.
I feel I should dump Dex and I should put that 15 on CHA instead of DEX, just for roleplaying purposes, because Heavy Blade talents usually require 15 Dex and I think 15 Dex is a total waste of points.

The only thing I can see Heavy Blade being better than an Battleaxe is, for example, if you could use Heavy Blade Opportunity, but I'm not even sure I'll reach lv11 in that campaign...

That ONE point is really all that awesome and I can't see it?

Thanks for answering and helping me out !

[Kurald Galain]

A few things to consider,

(1) There are backgrounds that key your hit points off your highest stat instead of con
(2) Initiative keys off dex, as do several decent skills
(3) In terms of average damage per round, +1 to hit is substantially better than +1 to damage
(4) In terms of attack riders (e.g. daze on a hit), obviously +1 to hit is going to be better here

That said, heavy blade fighters really don't need a lot of dex; if anything, wis is better for them. The one that needs dex is the polearm fighter, and that is solely for feat prerequisites. Basically, quite a lot of the "build advice" that WOTC puts in their books ("class X goes well with race Y", "class A has role B and requires stat C") is simply incorrect.

[georgie_leech]

A few things to consider,

(1) There are backgrounds that key your hit points off your highest stat instead of con
(2) Initiative keys off dex, as do several decent skills
(3) In terms of average damage per round, +1 to hit is substantially better than +1 to damage
(4) In terms of attack riders (e.g. daze on a hit), obviously +1 to hit is going to be better here

That said, heavy blade fighters really don't need a lot of dex; if anything, wis is better for them. The one that needs dex is the polearm fighter, and that is solely for feat prerequisites. Basically, quite a lot of the "build advice" that WOTC puts in their books ("class X goes well with race Y", "class A has role B and requires stat C") is simply incorrect.

Well, to be fair to WotC they're rarely grossly misleading (with a few exceptions, like neglecting how important DEX is for barbarians). Their recommendations usually make at least some sense. They are, however, rarely if ever really optimized. Passable as oppose to good.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, to be fair to WotC they're rarely grossly misleading (with a few exceptions, like neglecting how important DEX is for barbarians). Their recommendations usually make at least some sense. They are, however, rarely if ever really optimized. Passable as oppose to good.

Well, there's the notion that bladesingers are controllers, or that sentinels are leaders...

[georgie_leech]

Well, there's the notion that bladesingers are controllers, or that sentinels are leaders...

Nonsense! They use Controller powers so they must be a Controller!

I did say usually.

[NecroRebel]

Yes, "to-hit" is awesome, but it is ONE point. And not the "1 point that will become 2 points when you reach level X", It's just a ONE point.
I'm just not sure it is ALL THAT STUFF you guys are talking about.

Compare a longsword and a battleaxe in terms of pure damage, as that is easiest to mathematically (and thus unarguably) compare.

Both are one-handed versatile weapons, but the longsword has +3 proficiency and 1d8 damage while the battleaxe has +2 damage and 1d10 damage. As such, on average, the longsword will deal 4.5 damage per [W] per hit while the battleaxe will deal 5.5 damage per [W] per hit.

Now, the math in 4e is quite tight, meaning that your bonuses will be in a fairly predictable range at any given level. It just so happens that your attack bonuses will consistently be 8-10 points lower than the enemies' corresponding defenses, meaning you hit on a 10-12 or better - 55-65% hit rate. This never really changes, and you can check available attack bonus increases at every given level against the monster creation guidelines if you don't believe me (you lose about .05 attack per level compared to monster defenses).

Assume the high end of this scale, as that is what favors the axe most. The axe will hit 60% of the time, while the sword will hit 65% of the time, all else being equal.

Find the damage bonus at which the longsword will as much damage as the axe. This is fairly easy to do; with a damage bonus of D, the axe will average .6*(5.5+D) damage per 1[W] attack, while the sword will average .65*(4.5+D). Calculate it out, and you get that at D=7.5, the sword will deal as much damage, and at D>7.5, the sword will be more damaging.

How difficult is a static damage bonus of 8 or more to get? Very. Practically speaking, you'll get a bare minimum of 3, and realistically 4, from your Strength at level 1. So if you've got other bonuses totaling 4 damage, you'll deal more damage with a longsword than a battleaxe. You might have that at level 3 or so (20 Str instead of 18, +2 weapon, +1 from a feat), and by level 6 you'll almost certainly have it. In terms of pure damage, a longsword is better than a battleaxe.

Higher-[W] attacks aren't really that different - effectively, the battleaxe simply gets +1 damage that the longsword doesn't, which does shift the numbers a bit, but if you do the math you'll still find that it's quite easy for accuracy boosts to outdo the minor damage buff from the weapon's damage die.

This totally ignores the fact that you will be causing non-damaging rider effects which can't be so easily quantified. Accuracy really is king in 4e, above all other things.

[Vitruviansquid]

Almost everything the Fighter does that makes him a Defender requires accuracy.

You want to move dudes? Need to hit them. You want to keep dudes from moving? Need to hit them. You want to apply your knockdowns, your slows, your other status effects? Generally need to hit with them.

[Kharannos]

Compare a longsword and a battleaxe in terms of pure damage, as that is easiest to mathematically (and thus unarguably) compare.

Math is awesome =)

I may be wrong, but does 4e's math feels WAY MORE TIGHT than 3.X version?
I mean, I've played 4e for a long time and never I've felt a community so decided that 1 point of accuracy was so important :p

Well.. So, let's consider I'll play a Fighter using a Heavy Blade (Longsword, to max de Proficiency bonus).
If I'll play using the 22-point buy system (the list can be seen here: http://www.wjs3.com/rpg/arrays.html), can anyone recomend me how to spend my points to create a good level 1 Fighter, please?

Thanks again !

[Kurald Galain]

I mean, I've played 4e for a long time and never I've felt a community so decided that 1 point of accuracy was so important :p

5E does basically the same.

Well.. So, let's consider I'll play a Fighter using a Heavy Blade (Longsword, to max de Proficiency bonus).
If I'll play using the 22-point buy system (the list can be seen here: http://www.wjs3.com/rpg/arrays.html), can anyone recomend me how to spend my points to create a good level 1 Fighter, please?

In general, go for the "specialist array", i.e. 18 in your primary (strength), 14 in your secondary (take your pick), 11/10/10/8 in the rest. Adjust a bit if you need a feat on a tertiary stat. Having three dump stats is normal for a 4E character.

[georgie_leech]

5E does basically the same.

Mm, they're even more of a premium there. In my experience though they've almost gone too far in the other direction. There's almost a sense of individual honuses being insignifjcant; the d20 is almost always the most significant factor for accuracy.