What happened to this genre?

[Zrak]

SF has been supplanted by superhero stuff. It's got the same demographic appeal, roughly, so it works out.

Plus, it's easier to integrate other genres in the hopes of generating crossover appeal. A lot of superhero shows are basically halfway to being procedural dramas out of the box, for example, while it's hard to integrate the procedural drama with a space opera in a way that doesn't feel a little like a high-concept gimmick.

[BannedInSchool]

[...] while it's hard to integrate the procedural drama with a space opera in a way that doesn't feel a little like a high-concept gimmick.

Law & Order: Lensmen

[Rodin]

I like Killjoys and Dark Matter. They're both really good and fun to watch, but yeah, okay...they aren't Star Trek.

If there was a new Space Opera show, what would be good?

Would you prefer a show with a firmly established backdrop of known space, species and politics, or a pioneering type show where our intrepid heroes set out in humanity's first faster-than-light starship with no idea what they'll find?

Honestly, I'd like to see both. It'd be really hard for me to decide, but I would probably come down on the side of known space. I still go back and re-watch Babylon 5, while I haven't had nearly the same urge to do so with Star Trek. The problem with doing a pioneering show is that a lot of that ground was already covered by 3 seasons of TOS, 7 seasons of TNG, and 7 seasons of Voyager. And that's not counting the various alien species that came to visit both DS9 and B5. Or 30 odd seasons of Doctor Who, for that matter.

The plots behind politics and war, on the other hand, never get old.

[Zrak]

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I mean, I always forget that Farscape was a television program and not some elaborate background for a fan music video for Golen Earring's "Twilight Zone," but it really did happen and combine both of those things.

[Rockphed]

Would you prefer a show with a firmly established backdrop of known space, species and politics, or a pioneering type show where our intrepid heroes set out in humanity's first faster-than-light starship with no idea what they'll find?

I see two other possible emphases for a space opera to have. All told they are:

1. Explore the universe. Meet new people. Have a green skinned space babe on every planet. (As shown in Star Trek)
2. Fly around and interact with the politics of space empires. Protagonists range from barely involved observers to barely involved wizards who give pushes out the door. (See Babylon 5 and Firefly)
3. Escape. I don't care where we go so long as it isn't here. The [enemy] are on our heels and we cannot stop until we get to our destination. (Battlestar Galactica is the prime example of this)
4. Understand. We have an alien technology that we can barely comprehend. Given time we might awaken its secrets. We might also remind its former owners that it exists; they are dangerous. (Stargate: SG1 did an excellent job at this)

Now, most shows have at least two of these themes. Battlestar Galactica has plenty of politics. Stargate had plenty of exploring (and a heavy dose of politics).

I would rather enjoy more shows like Firefly. The protagonists being mostly unimportant to the setting was a nice change of pace from just about every other space opera ever. Wait, are there any other space operas where the universe will barely notice the passing of the main characters? Star Trek had them flying around in a sizable chunk of their faction's navy. Battlestar Galactica and Stargate had the entire human race depending on the protagonists to win the day. Babylon 5 was the premier diplomatic outpost in known space. I guess Farscape would almost count, except that before long they have a rebellion brewing around them and they are tumbling the known universe. To be fair, Firefly had hints that the gub'ment wanted to be interested in the Serenity, and Serenity had them dropping a knowledge bomb, but in the show, they are just trying to get by.

[lt_murgen]

How about a Battletech show, based around the clan invasions?

All human cast, good CGI. Explainable place to put in a variety of character types.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I like Killjoys and Dark Matter. They're both really good and fun to watch, but yeah, okay...they aren't Star Trek.

If there was a new Space Opera show, what would be good?

Would you prefer a show with a firmly established backdrop of known space, species and politics, or a pioneering type show where our intrepid heroes set out in humanity's first faster-than-light starship with no idea what they'll find?

Definitely pioneering. I reached my fill of grimy post-apocalyptic years ago for the most part, but I do like Dark Matter quite a bit. Killjoys for some reason I can't put my finger on (yet) I just don't enjoy much.

[Olinser]

How about a Battletech show, based around the clan invasions?

All human cast, good CGI. Explainable place to put in a variety of character types.

Meh. That would get old fast, and a TV show would just showcase how ridiculous the relative size of Mech armies compared to the planets they were allegedly conquering was in the series was. Mech fights in the books were pretty interchangeable and got really old really fast.

A movie would work, though, as proven by Transformers.

[Rockphed]

Meh. That would get old fast, and a TV show would just showcase how ridiculous the relative size of Mech armies compared to the planets they were allegedly conquering was in the series was. Mech fights in the books were pretty interchangeable and got really old really fast.

A movie would work, though, as proven by Transformers.

Yeah, the only things driving the mech books were the limited character interactions and the "it's a lead semi with lasers" feel. A traditional TV series would not do well at showcasing the good things about Battletech. A four to eight part mini-series might do an OK job. I'm not sure you could cut things down enough to fit in a 120 minutes movie and still have enough lead-semi time.

[Rodin]

The premise of Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries final missions could work. The Clans show up back at Earth-controlled space with massively superior technology, but because they're so obsessed with honorable combat they agree to limit the number of mechs they send (but still leaving enough advantage on their side so the outcome is in no doubt). The Earth systems for their part even the odds by lowballing the number of mechs available to them (causing the clans to send less than needed), fighting in a swamp laced with fake transponders to hide their numbers, and outright mining the Clan landing pads with nukes to destroy their dropships.

Tell that story following the characters from both sides (showing the flaws in each) and you could probably get a pretty good tale out of it. Main problem is expensive effects.

[lt_murgen]

The premise of Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries final missions could work. The Clans show up back at Earth-controlled space with massively superior technology, but because they're so obsessed with honorable combat they agree to limit the number of mechs they send (but still leaving enough advantage on their side so the outcome is in no doubt). The Earth systems for their part even the odds by lowballing the number of mechs available to them (causing the clans to send less than needed), fighting in a swamp laced with fake transponders to hide their numbers, and outright mining the Clan landing pads with nukes to destroy their dropships.

Tell that story following the characters from both sides (showing the flaws in each) and you could probably get a pretty good tale out of it. Main problem is expensive effects.

That is kind of what I was thinking. Early clan invasion, with characters on both sides. Showing how each views the other in the worst possible light.

[Kislath]

There was a Battletech TV show on back in the late 90's. It was CGI animation. It featured the Jade Falcon Clan invading some place and the locals trying to fight back against them.

It wasn't very good, and didn't last very long. That annoyed me, because I was a huge Battletech player at the time. My buddies and I even formed our own competition group to compete against others around the region and at conventions. ( Loki's Lackeys, we were called ) I was really pumped for that show, but sorely disappointed in it.

I'm sure it could be redone, though, and done much better.

I'd really love to see a whole new group appear--- the SLDF! Imagine a whole lost splinter colony of the old Star League Defense Force had been doing just fine way, WAY out of the perimeter of known space, unaffected by the wars, and now considerably more advanced than they were back when they went missing. They come back, see all the crazy stuff that happened in their absence, and resolve to kick everyone's butts, Inner Sphere and Clan, to reunify everyone by force and rebuild the old Star League.

This premise could make for a decent TV show, as old enemies find themselves under attack by a superior foe and have to enter into an uneasy truce to survive.

Battletech 3085. Brand new systems. Brand new mechs. Brand new ways to die.

[Rockphed]

There was a Battletech TV show on back in the late 90's. It was CGI animation. It featured the Jade Falcon Clan invading some place and the locals trying to fight back against them.

It wasn't very good, and didn't last very long. That annoyed me, because I was a huge Battletech player at the time. My buddies and I even formed our own competition group to compete against others around the region and at conventions. ( Loki's Lackeys, we were called ) I was really pumped for that show, but sorely disappointed in it.

I'm sure it could be redone, though, and done much better.

I'd really love to see a whole new group appear--- the SLDF! Imagine a whole lost splinter colony of the old Star League Defense Force had been doing just fine way, WAY out of the perimeter of known space, unaffected by the wars, and now considerably more advanced than they were back when they went missing. They come back, see all the crazy stuff that happened in their absence, and resolve to kick everyone's butts, Inner Sphere and Clan, to reunify everyone by force and rebuild the old Star League.

This premise could make for a decent TV show, as old enemies find themselves under attack by a superior foe and have to enter into an uneasy truce to survive.

Battletech 3085. Brand new systems. Brand new mechs. Brand new ways to die.

Um, that is pretty much what the clans were. The general of the SLDF got fed up with politics and backstabbing after the emperor got shanked. He and most of the SLDF hopped on jump ships and went as far out as they could. They decided to engage in a complicated plan of eugenics, genetic experimentation, and blood trials in order to create the perfect warriors. The inner sphere did the same thing by being constantly at war for 300 years.

[CmdrShep2183]

I want a space opera revival!

I want a movie or TV show based on this.


A movie based on this


and this


I hope this


and this


leads to that revival!

Isn't it troubling we do not have a TV show on right now that involves spaceships? How can we get our love for space opera back?

[ThinkMinty]

Genres wax and wane over time, but they never vanish. Westerns used to be king(probably the reason Gene Roddenberry pitched Star Trek as a Western in space) but you only have to watch Toy Story to see what happened to them. Sci Fi was big in the nineties, then CSI came out and it was all about forensic crime shows which blossomed into lots of detective shows and before too long a show with an easy to copy premise will be a huge hit and the other networks will try and get their own version of it out, maybe even making something as or even more popular and soon we'll be flooded with shows of that genre.
And after all that, people still like movies about cowboys.

I counter your thesis with the Robinsonade genre.

[Legato Endless]

I counter your thesis with the Robinsonade genre.

Not dead if that's what you mean. A couple more prominent examples:

Lost was ungodly popular in the 2000s. Cage of Eden is more of the same as a manga, though with less of a cop out ending. 7 Seeds is another, but with more romance. Cast Away and Life of Pi did alright in theaters. Freak Angels is a recent Webcomic. Classic Minecraft usually starts out like this unless you're in creative mode. The recent Tomb Raider is a more classic example, though the hostility of nature is co opted by sorcery.

[cobaltstarfire]

It kind of seemed like to me that the genre was dying long before it really disappeared.

I've never seen any of the Stargate stuff, but I've heard that they lots of rough times.

I know for a fact that Babylon 5 and Farscape are both shows that got as far as they did only by the skin of their teeth. Babylon 5 used CGI because it was cheaper and they were basically working on a shoe string budget compared to Star Trek, a budget that was getting reliably slashed each season. They were never sure if they would even get to make each next season (which is why 4 and 5 in particular are so janky).

I don't know if Farscape also had budget problems, but I do know that they also had issues with being jerked around on whether they'd be renewed or not. (I keep hearing that there will be another movie...but I'm unsure of if I am happy about that since the last movie was...well it was missing something dunno what, Moya's personality among other things)

It's neat to see that maybe some more sci-fi things are on the horizon. I never could get into Star Trek as much, but I'd like to see more of things like B5, Farscape, and Firefly. But I also feel worried about getting excited for those things, because whatever network is hosting them always likes to jerk them around.

[Aotrs Commander]

I know for a fact that Babylon 5 and Farscape are both shows that got as far as they did only by the skin of their teeth. Babylon 5 used CGI because it was cheaper and they were basically working on a shoe string budget compared to Star Trek, a budget that was getting reliably slashed each season. They were never sure if they would even get to make each next season (which is why 4 and 5 in particular are so janky).

Sorry what? B5 season four, the single most intense, focussed season of sci-fi ever (becausethey had to compress two season's worth of plot into one season, leaving out all the fat) and the highest proportion of starship battles to episode of any series? The end of the Shadow War, the Earth civil war? G'Kar's trials on Centauri Prime?

That Moment with Vir that is the single best moment of the entire series and probably every other series?

That was "janky...?"

I can understand why people moan about season 5 (somewhat undeservedly, since it took three seasons to be able to build up to season four), but season four stands as being one of the best stretchs of still the best scifi series out there.



Though I'll admit that it also had a couple of places where I can point a finger and say "bein' too arty" (i.e. Sherdian's capture and torture.)

[Rodin]

It kind of seemed like to me that the genre was dying long before it really disappeared.

I've never seen any of the Stargate stuff, but I've heard that they lots of rough times.

I know for a fact that Babylon 5 and Farscape are both shows that got as far as they did only by the skin of their teeth. Babylon 5 used CGI because it was cheaper and they were basically working on a shoe string budget compared to Star Trek, a budget that was getting reliably slashed each season. They were never sure if they would even get to make each next season (which is why 4 and 5 in particular are so janky).

I don't know if Farscape also had budget problems, but I do know that they also had issues with being jerked around on whether they'd be renewed or not. (I keep hearing that there will be another movie...but I'm unsure of if I am happy about that since the last movie was...well it was missing something dunno what, Moya's personality among other things)

It's neat to see that maybe some more sci-fi things are on the horizon. I never could get into Star Trek as much, but I'd like to see more of things like B5, Farscape, and Firefly. But I also feel worried about getting excited for those things, because whatever network is hosting them always likes to jerk them around.

I don't think it was a sign that the genre was dying, more "business as usual" for a Sci-Fi show. Remember, Star Trek: TOS only managed to get 3 seasons by virtue of a letter-writing campaign after the first two seasons.

Sci-Fi is always going to be a bad bet for Hollywood, because you're aiming at a narrow demographic AND paying through the nose for special effects. Superhero movies have proven that they have a wide enough demographic to warrant the special effects, but I don't think Sci-Fi TV shows ever have. Hence why every show ever is always on the verge of being canceled.

[cobaltstarfire]

Sorry what? B5 season four, the single most intense, focussed season of sci-fi ever (becausethey had to compress two season's worth of plot into one season, leaving out all the fat) and the highest proportion of starship battles to episode of any series? The end of the Shadow War, the Earth civil war? G'Kar's trials on Centauri Prime?

That Moment with Vir that is the single best moment of the entire series and probably every other series?

That was "janky...?"

I can understand why people moan about season 5 (somewhat undeservedly, since it took three seasons to be able to build up to season four), but season four stands as being one of the best stretchs of still the best scifi series out there.


Though I'll admit that it also had a couple of places where I can point a finger and say "bein' too arty" (i.e. Sherdian's capture and torture.)

I'm not saying the seasons where bad, but they don't fit together very well. Season 4 is super intense and a little rushed because they were very very certain they wouldn't get a season 5 and they wanted to make sure to tie up all of the most important plots decently. And then they did get a S5 anyway, so they had to work things out story wise to get that last season with some of the weirdness's. I like all of B5, but we could have gotten something even better if the network wasn't yanking the shows chain constantly and harder with each season.

And please, if you're going to respond to me again, do it without the condescending tone.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm not saying the seasons where bad, but they don't fit together very well. Season 4 is super intense and a little rushed because they were very very certain they wouldn't get a season 5 and they wanted to make sure to tie up all of the most important plots decently. And then they did get a S5 anyway, so they had to work things out story wise to get that last season with some of the weirdness's. I like all of B5, but we could have gotten something even better if the network wasn't yanking the shows chain constantly and harder with each season.

Ah, with you. Fair enough.

And please, if you're going to respond to me again, do it without the condescending tone.

My apologies; I was incredulous, not intentionally trying to be condesening (and I'm not running on all cylinders today, I'm afraid); I'm sorry if I gave offense.

[BannedInSchool]

I'd agree that season four of B5 was compressed/truncated a bit to fit it all in twenty two episodes. Certainly (IMO) the end of the Shadow War needed a two-parter, and I want to say JMS said that the season would originally have ended with Intersections in Real Time (wouldn't that have been a heck of a summer break? Heh). That would have been four more episodes, or three in addition to Into the Fire Pt. 2. Some threads from the beginning of season five probably would have been introduced earlier too, so I don't think there'd be a lot of "fat" in the original season four, but it'd not be as compacted. Oh, and it did take the show getting picked up by TNT for there to be a fifth season, so that wasn't exactly getting jerked around. PTEN (the "syndicated network" that also brought us Kung Fu: The Legend Continues and maybe something else) was dead, bereft of life, ceased to be, so WB didn't even exactly cancel B5 either.

And somewhat related to the wider topic of SF demographics, then TNT (I forget if it was L.A. or Atlanta that were the douchebags over Crusade) discovered that while the age and sex demographics were similar between B5 and Wrastling, the actual individual viewers weren't the same.

[Aotrs Commander]

And has been slowly revealed over time, the viewer figures from the ratings and whatnot are, in fact, basically a bit of bollocks and half-fabrications created by extrapolating from an inherently biased information base (due to the way the data is collected), which has been sustained as credible data for decades anyway; it's taken until the Internet age for something like reasonably accurate statistics to be truly known - and then largely by place like Netflicks.

[CmdrShep2183]

Who is excited for the Expanse this December?

[Velaryon]

Genre's might endure, but sub-genres do violently die. Part of the decline of the Space Opera is that, much like Square Enix being singled out as the only measuring stick for JRPGs, Star Trek's decline was taken as a significant sign of Space Opera's dropping out of interest. But it's more Idealistic Science Fiction that's dead. Star Trek as it was originally conceived doesn't float in today's environment. And NuTrek and DS9 (which was prescient in several ways) are proof enough of the need to adapt.

Hell, I doubt it's any coincidence that the rise of the Fantasy film in the 2000s wasn't connected beyond the tech development making it possible. As people lost their general faith in the an overtly optimistic future, the past became ripe for romanticization.

Oddly enough, Star Trek could fit this mold as well. While the earlier shows, particularly when Gene Roddenberry was still alive, had a notably optimistic tone, series lore had the 21st century as a truly awful time to be alive, with WW3, the Eugenics Wars, and all that. A Star Trek prequel series set in an alternate modern day would strike that post-apocalyptic chord that has been super popular for years now.

It would be a risky proposition because it wouldn't be recognizably Star Trek - since it would be set before the development of interstellar travel, you'd have few if any of the aliens that make Star Trek what it is. Sure, they could do the occasional plot of Vulcans or someone observing us (and they probably would), but the vast majority of the show would be all humans and it would be very unlike any Star Trek we've ever seen. And that would be both the strength and the weakness of this series, if it were ever to happen.

I'd agree that season four of B5 was compressed/truncated a bit to fit it all in twenty two episodes. Certainly (IMO) the end of the Shadow War needed a two-parter, and I want to say JMS said that the season would originally have ended with Intersections in Real Time (wouldn't that have been a heck of a summer break? Heh). That would have been four more episodes, or three in addition to Into the Fire Pt. 2. Some threads from the beginning of season five probably would have been introduced earlier too, so I don't think there'd be a lot of "fat" in the original season four, but it'd not be as compacted. Oh, and it did take the show getting picked up by TNT for there to be a fifth season, so that wasn't exactly getting jerked around. PTEN (the "syndicated network" that also brought us Kung Fu: The Legend Continues and maybe something else) was dead, bereft of life, ceased to be, so WB didn't even exactly cancel B5 either.

I think PTEN (gosh, I'd forgotten all about that) was also responsible for Time Trax, a short-lived show about a cop from the future chasing criminals who'd escaped back into the 1990's. I remember that debuting at the same time as Kung Fu: the Legend Continues

[Gnoman]

Oddly enough, Star Trek could fit this mold as well. While the earlier shows, particularly when Gene Roddenberry was still alive, had a notably optimistic tone, series lore had the 21st century as a truly awful time to be alive, with WW3, the Eugenics Wars, and all that. A Star Trek prequel series set in an alternate modern day would strike that post-apocalyptic chord that has been super popular for years now.

Roddenberry's utopian overtones were never all that popular in the first place. The most popular TOS episodes are those he had the least to do with, and most of the works he had the most influence in were poorly received and now considered among the worst Star Trek stories ever made. Likewise, TNG did fairly poorly until Roddenberry was kicked upstairs, the movies he had the most to do with conceptually (TMP and ST V) sit right at the bottom of the heap, and none of his other projects really got off the ground.

[Darth Ultron]

It is a hard genre. On top of all the problems of just making a normal TV show, you have:

*Special effects. You will need a ton of them, and at great cost, to make your show.

*Sets. You will need to make a lot of them for your show too. And you can't use much of the 'Earth' type ones in the back lots or such. You can wing it a bit and say use a futuristic collage campus as a set, but not all the time. And this gets costly.

*Characters. This is a tricky one, you want both aliens and future humans that are different....but that modern people can still relate too. This is why every character in Star Trek likes things from the 19th/20th century, but oddly nothing from the future. And getting the right mix of alien, but still human is a tough mix. And while some hard sci-fi fans might really like some real aliens, everyone else won't.

*Information. Another tricky one. You really have to keep a tight watch on the tech and other elements of your show. You can't have 'light speed 5' get to Earth in one day in one show, and have it take a week in another. People watch this stuff way too closely to just let it pass anymore.

*The writing problem. The first half of this problem is you will have to hire non-sci-if writers. That is writers that just write normal stuff. So they can't write sci-fi, they will just write a normal episode and then tack ''oh an alien'' on at the end. The other half of the problem is that a lot of writers hate sci-fi with a passion. So if they get stuck writing a sci-fi show, they will do it badly.

[tomandtish]

Nobody liked Firefly so nobody dares make a new SciFi show

Hm... from what I know the last Star Trek and Stargate shows were not that successful (citation needed) which kind of put a damper on that. I'll have to admit, I can't recall a successful show "recently", but then I might have missed/be forgetting something. I mean, obviously there are still SciFi shows of varying quality, but no "explore space!" shows that come to mind.
I guess as with many things, there are trends also in TV shows, and at the moment it's just not hip... or nobody has a good idea for one. Sure they could always make a new Star Trek what with the reboots, or turn GOTG into a series... (hah!) but in the end, not to say I don't have interest but if nobody is willing to write one I'd rather have none than one that was made just because there's a gap to fill.

Stargate Universe started with 2.3 million viewers and ended at about 1.1 million (which means it started at the level SG-1 was at in Season 8).

Enterprise ratings also dropped steadily each year.

SyFy seems to be getting back into sci-fi shows, with Dark Matter and Kill Joys (both renewed for 2nd seasons), so we'll see what happens.

The stupid part was when they cancelled SG-1... for one other reason than it had been going for ten years, and it was like the idea of a sci-fi show running longer than a non-sci-fi show was some sort of gross sin against the studioes or something.

Despite what SyFy said, it wasn't entirely no reason. By Season 10 the show was in the mid to low 1s (look at the Sci-Fi ratings). They had started dropping with the cast change in Season 9. SyFy tried to play it off with the idea that most of the cast was going to move to Atlantis, but people weren't convinced. Season 4 of Atlantis (next year after 10 of SG-1) also had poor ratings even with Amanda moving over.

In short, SG-1 had run the course (honestly by the end of Season 7). Atlantis suffered from uneven writing, and Universe never really caught on. When you add the fact thy they are more expensive shows to begin with (and SG-1 and any cast member who showed up on one of the others were getting very expensive), and it's not surprising they cancelled them.

Genres run in cycles. While there will always be one or two sci-fi shows, we're just in a lull. Super heroes and supernatural seems to be the more popular genres for the geek crowd right now.

[Rodin]

Atlantis really lost me with the trial episode, where they got put on trial for everything they'd done throughout the series. While one of the three judges was biased against them (with good cause), they still had two other judges to work with...and STILL had to resort to shenanigans to get out of it because they couldn't justify their actions.

When a show points out that everybody would have been better off if the heroes had just stayed at home and gone for donuts, it becomes pretty hard to root for the heroes after that.

SG-1's big problem was that they wrapped up every major plot point at the end of series 8 and then tried to conjure two more seasons up out of effectively nothing.

And Universe spent too much time trying to imitate Battlestar Galactica instead of taking advantage of the setting. It wasn't a terrible idea for a show, but they decided to ignore the "hurtling through unknown space" bit and focused everything on how awful the characters could be to each other. If I wanted that, I'd watch Big Brother, thanks.

[Yora]

Genres run in cycles. While there will always be one or two sci-fi shows, we're just in a lull. Super heroes and supernatural seems to be the more popular genres for the geek crowd right now.

I expect that bubble to burst any day now. I'm not a fan of any of that myself, but I think we really have reached oversaturation quite a while ago.