LGBTAI+ #56: Prismatic Spray!

[super dark33]

Its 'understandable' that someone might hold these opinions under feelings of contempt and wishe for long overdue revenge.

Just as this pastor is led to make such a statement from undestandable reasons.

Both cases are not excusable.

[Lentrax]

As was stated above, haters gonna hate. All we can do is move on from words intended to demean and shame us, shake off the stinging pain, and prove ourselves resistant to such petty, feeble attempts to undermine the cause of freedom in love.

Live on, friends.

Love.

Love well, and prosper.

[Heliomance]

As was stated above, haters gonna hate. All we can do is move on from words intended to demean and shame us, shake off the stinging pain, and prove ourselves resistant to such petty, feeble attempts to undermine the cause of freedom in love.

Live on, friends.

Love.

Love well, and prosper.

THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. My problem is the left-wing response to his bigotry. I have no problem moving on from his words, they're just a load of hot air. But we really shouldn't just "shake off" the fact that our team is calling for the horrific, excruciating death of a man for the crime of disagreeing with us.

[Skeppio]

THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. My problem is the left-wing response to his bigotry. I have no problem moving on from his words, they're just a load of hot air. But we really shouldn't just "shake off" the fact that our team is calling for the horrific, excruciating death of a man for the crime of disagreeing with us.

This. This is why I don't even bother associating myself with "our team" anymore. Because we're far too willing to let this sort of thing slide because it's us slinging the hate around. No, it is not okay when we do it. That is hypocrisy of the highest caliber.

[Killer Angel]

Calling for someone to kill himself in one of the most horrific ways possible because he used the word "burn" in his rhetoric is understandable?

If you are the subject of a campaign of hate, yes, extreme bitterness as reaction is understandable. We are not all Ghandi. But again, there's a Whole world of difference between understandable and justifiable. Only time will erase this kind of bad reactions.

Given that the argument is a sensible one, forgive me but probably I'll abstain from further comments.

[Lentrax]

THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. My problem is the left-wing response to his bigotry. I have no problem moving on from his words, they're just a load of hot air. But we really shouldn't just "shake off" the fact that our team is calling for the horrific, excruciating death of a man for the crime of disagreeing with us.

Tamsin, I was not directing my remark at you, or as a response to what you said.

But I think that every 'side' should take a good hard look at what they are doing to everyone simply by having 'sides' to begin with.

I am not calling for anyone's death, nor would I, unless the crimes committed truly warrant it.

But by dividing into us and them, by dividing to you and me, by making ourselves separate by words, we undermine the words that speak for peace. We lose ourselves to the division, and open ourselves to divide by more words. And when we divide far enough, all we have left are the words that cut and maim. And then all we do is hurt each other. And ourselves.

If the words they say hurt, or offend, or destroy them speak against them. Question their words. Set yourself free from the dissent.

[Astrella]

Uh, no, holding bigoted opinions is wrong. This is stuff that negatively impacts people's lives, it's not harmless.

[Lycunadari]

Bluh, I feel like a mess. All the misgendering at work + just general summer related dysphoria is really getting to me. I hate my body so much, how square and angular and shapeless everything is, my skin is all blotchy, I just look like a guy and it feels like there's no point to it. It's even gotten me to relapse (not too badly luckily)... and I've been having repetitive thoughts about just going back to being a guy. And I feel so guilty about being such a mess. And I have a surgical consult in August and I don't know what I want and I feel guilty about that too cause so many trans women don't get this chance...

*offers hugs* Misgendering sucks, I'm sorry you have to deal with that on top of everything. And I know that it's hard to not get discouraged, but how you look is not determining how valid your identity is. And trying is never pointless - hormones can keep changing your appearance for several years as far as I know, and maybe you'll be able find more clothes (and maybe makeup, assecories etc) to make you look more like you want to. Also tbh, from the pictures I've seen of you (though it's been a while) you looked pretty cute.
Relapsing happens - it's not good, yes, but it doesn't make you a worse person and any less deserving of good things.
There is no reason to feel guilty. Emotions are human and being confused, upset or unsure is okay and understandable. You'll be fine. And while it sucks that many women don't get this opportunity, you don't deserve it any less just because you're unsure.

Mm. I think this is the really important thing. On both sides of the debate there seem to be a lot of people who think that the act of holding dissenting opinions is inherently wrong. That, honestly, scares me far more than any overblown rhetoric from either camp. (Because neither is innocent of it.)

I mean, what the pastor said was still a silly thing to say. But saying it wasn't morally wrong.

Uh, no, holding bigoted opinions is wrong. This is stuff that negatively impacts people's lives, it's not harmless.

I'm with Lena on this one. Having different opinions isn't wrong in itself, but bigoted opinions are actively hurting people. Nobody lives in a vacuum. One persons "empty" hate speech can make someone else commit suicide. What do you think those pastor's "silly" words would do to a gay relative of him? It might seem silly to us who aren't directly affected by it, but if you're hearing these things every day, if you have to live with the knowledge that your relative would rather burn (however that was meant specifically) than grant you human rights, don't you think that would eat away at you? And hurting others in that way is definitely morally wrong IMO.

That doesn't makes the people calling for his death on Tamsin's facebook feed any better. That's unacceptable no matter what he said before.

[noparlpf]

Ugh. So, a pastor in America said, in the lead up to this same sex marriage decision, “We are not going to bow. We are not going to bend, and if necessary, we will burn.”

Now my Facebook feed is full of people going "To the guy who said he'd set himself on fire if gay marriage got passed, when are you going to do it?"

People are disgustingly horrible sometimes, and being liberal and queer is not an exemption from that.

I've seen a bit of that on tumblr too. It's disgusting. Like, I understand being bitter and angry when upset and hurt, but that's still no excuse for this kind of behavior.

Bluh, I feel like a mess. All the misgendering at work + just general summer related dysphoria is really getting to me. I hate my body so much, how square and angular and shapeless everything is, my skin is all blotchy, I just look like a guy and it feels like there's no point to it. It's even gotten me to relapse (not too badly luckily)... and I've been having repetitive thoughts about just going back to being a guy. And I feel so guilty about being such a mess. And I have a surgical consult in August and I don't know what I want and I feel guilty about that too cause so many trans women don't get this chance...

*hugs*? I'm sorry you're having such a rough time.

[Heliomance]

In happier news, this is amazing. (Warning for bad language)

[Kesnit]

Ugh. So, a pastor in America said, in the lead up to this same sex marriage decision, “We are not going to bow. We are not going to bend, and if necessary, we will burn.”

Now my Facebook feed is full of people going "To the guy who said he'd set himself on fire if gay marriage got passed, when are you going to do it?"

People are disgustingly horrible sometimes, and being liberal and queer is not an exemption from that.

If it makes you feel better, this is from the FB of a close friend of mine. "Any of those conservative pastors setting themselves on fire??? Let's be there, embrace them and prevent them doing harm to themselves ... share the love ... help them heal! If they do self immolate ... you can be sure that LGBT doctors, nurses, EMTs will be there to help!"

It's surprisingly refreshing to see someone else in the LGBT community who thinks that way. Most people I've seen follow mindsets that can be summed up as "those outside our clique aren't people and all deserve death" and "it's okay when we do it".

You (and a few others) seems to be under the impression that writing "bring the s'mores!" means that person would actually let someone burn to death if the situation arose. Sure, I'm amused by the idea of certain idiots setting themselves on fire - because I know they will never do it. If that same idiot actually did set him/herself on fire in front of me, I'd be there, trying to put them out. (Similar to the quote I posted above.)

I mean I have made jokes about that, no-one actually expects or wants him to do it. They are just at least the people I know, pointing out that grand statements like that don't actually mean anything. For me, it was like when a kid says they are going to hold their breath til they get their way. People will joke and tease the kid, but we know all that will happen is that they will either decide to stop or pass out and start breathing again.

^This.

[Lissou]

I don't know about this specific guy, but a lot of people dit say "If this passes I'll set fire to myself" and a lot of people did say "If this happens I'm getting a divorce as marriage will have become meaningless" and other similar "threats". The threats were silly to begin with. Setting fire to yourself is blackmail and throwing a tantrum, and I've found it a ridiculous tactic even when people I agreed with did it (in obviously very different circumstances). Divorcing isn't something that anyone other than your spouse cares about so it's a ridiculous threat.

After it did pass, a bunch of people pointed out how those thread were just that, threats. The guys aren't going to set fire to themselves. The point isn't to tell them to do it, it's to show how immature they were in the first place for saying they would. The problem is that some people actually mean those things. I think the people who tease them would stop if they realised that yes, some people might do it.

No if comments were targetted directly to this guy who never said "I'll set fire to myself", I guess he was lumped in with the other people because his sentence seemed similar (and we have to see it in context. When so many people say "I'll set fire to myself", saying "we will burn" can definitely be seen as an encouragement to them or a threat on their behalf.)

Anyway, I haven't seen the comments on your facebook page. The only comment I personnaly saw on mine was "Shouldn't a bunch of people be moving to Canada, getting a divorce or setting fire to themselves right about now?" which again, is not asking them to do it, but pointing out that those were empty, disproportionate threats to begin with.

Now, I do agree with you about people of all kinds being horrible. There was a story way back about a woman who tracked a man who had raped her and then set fire to him. And my facebook wall was full of people cheering her. That's horrible. I hate knowing that my friends can cheer for such a horrible death. So if the comments on your wall were similar to that, then yes, I understand being disgusted by it.

[Coidzor]

That's... that's not what I was complaining about. I know haters gonna hate, that's not news. What I'm complaining about is the fact that people I know, liberal people, are seriously, unironically calling for this man to burn himself to death. Because of a comment that wasn't even meant literally. That is not okay.

Mostly I've seen people mocking him for being, well, who and what he is and saying what he did.

But, y'know, sometimes people need to get their Two Minutes Hate in, and he's a good contemptible figure since Fred Phelps apparently kicked the bucket at some point.

THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. My problem is the left-wing response to his bigotry. I have no problem moving on from his words, they're just a load of hot air. But we really shouldn't just "shake off" the fact that our team is calling for the horrific, excruciating death of a man

Oh, hello Tone Policing.

But seriously, it's far better for them to reveal to you now that you'd never want to have a pint with them rather than once you're at the pub together.

for the crime of disagreeing with us.

Wait, wait, no. I'm sorry, you just don't get it at all then if that's all you think is represented by this context and what this man's beliefs and rhetoric have been and are.

A bigot who tries to organize other bigots is doing far more than merely "disagreeing." To the point where you're factually incorrect to the point where it's confusing how you came to such a mistaken conclusion.

Don't get me wrong, I am (subjectively) disgusted by what he's said and done, but I don't think that the act of holding an opinion (that, and no more - this is the really important thing, there's a divide between that which you keep to yourself and affects nobody else and that which, even by the act of speaking about it, can hurt) can be construed as wrong.

Your belief that holding an opinion or belief can't be wrong is factually incorrect and thus wrong.

I mean, just look at anti-vaxxers and people who believe all kinds of incorrect and malicious slurs against people with autism.

[Callin]

Hate is hate and I wish those on both sides spouting it would shut up. Congrats to Marriage for all.


edit- I didnt need that last part in there. My party affiliation should have no bearing on this.

[golentan]

Guys, talking about, hell, even mentioning parties and wings may not be the best way to use this particular platform to talk about developments, unless we're talking about parties where we celebrate some of the good news, and the chicken wings that we serve there...

[Coidzor]

As I said, their views are infuriating and sickening, respectively.

Also, y'know, false and in many cases slanderous or libelous.

However, I don't think that there is any such thing as a thoughtcrime.

No one's saying throw the guy in jail, they're just calling a bluff which he didn't actually make himself but a combination of his followers, his opponents, and the media created through the magic of social media sharing and inflation of the extremity of rhetoric. Bigots are bigots though, and recognizing them as bigots is not declaring thoughtcrime.

In my view, you're free to believe what you want within the comfort of your own head, but the second those beliefs harm or infringe upon the rights of others, you're absolutely in the wrong and deserve to have the full weight of sanity brought down upon you.

It's a bit hypocritical of you to believe that they're allowed to believe that others are wrong in their beliefs but we're not allowed to believe that their beliefs are wrong right back at them.

If we're wrong to believe they're wrong then they were wrong in the first place for starting this fractal loop of wrongness. XD

With the examples you provided, the moment said anti-vaxxer actually refused to have their children immunised or that our friend the anti-autistic fellow insulted or demeaned or was just a (insert slur here) to people with autism, they would deserve all the ridicule and/or legal action that was coming their way.

Legal action and ridicule are a step beyond the fact that they believe outright false information and spread false information and believe things that are literally untrue.

[Heliomance]

On a far less pleasant note that my previous link, this is quite spetacular.

[Syless]

On a far less pleasant note that my previous link, this is quite spetacular.

...

The sooner Facebook implodes under its own weight, the better.

[Athedia]

On an amusing note, I found out this happened at the announcement.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread closed for review.

Thread re-opened upon review.

Folks, we're all very happy and very excited about the recent news.

However, as a general reminder, please remember that politics and religion are both inappropriate topics on these boards, and this event will not be an exception to it. Feel free to celebrate and congratulate each other or share any personal updates* related to the news, but avoid discussing or referencing, among other things:

• The actual legal workings of the ruling, what it means, or previous rulings about it
• What politicians, organizations, people, ideologies or political parties have stated regarding their position
• How religion ties into this at all
• Present, Past, or Future political movements in favor or against
• Any kind of government procedure, policy, or concept.
• Etc.

Also needless to say, please be respectful to each other. Remember to adhere to the Forum Rules.

Thanks, everyone! Happy posting!

*Congrats, Jor.

[Heliomance]

So I just watched Boy Meets Girl (a.k.a. possibly the most important LGBT+ film of 2014). It was absolutely beautiful. I'm tearing up a bit here.

[Jormengand]

*Congrats, Jor.

Thank you.

[Irish Musician]

So I just watched Boy Meets Girl (a.k.a. possibly the most important LGBT+ film of 2014). It was absolutely beautiful. I'm tearing up a bit here.

There's an amazing film called "Before Night Falls" with Javier Bardem who plays Reinaldo Arenas, a Cuban poet and his life as a gay man in Cuba.

Amazing film. Amazing.

[Anarion]

So when America was dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, the first thing I did was propose to one of my lovers.

They said yes.

Going back over the thread and OMIGOSH. Congratulations!

[*]Any kid of government procedure, policy, or concept.

Remember everyone, the children of procedure and policy are demons and not to be discussed, lest we bring down their wrath upon us.

[Heliomance]

It's not one I've heard of. What's it like?

It's a rom com, where the female lead is trans (played by a trans actress). It's really sensitive, and respectful, and just all around a really positive portrayal.

[golentan]

It's a rom com, where the female lead is trans (played by a trans actress). It's really sensitive, and respectful, and just all around a really positive portrayal.

Aaaaand I went ahead and added it to my netflix queue... I love rom-coms, and also always wish for more queer friendly media that isn't... Just queer.

Oh for a blockbuster movie where the romantic b-plot is between a same sex couple without that being the only thing.

Rom-coms get a pass on some of it because the whole point is a relationship loaded with wacky misunderstanding. But most of the LGBT movies I've looked at have been basically the LGBT equivalent of Blaxploitation films of the 70s, or feel the need to reinforce how oppressed queer folk are... And I don't like feeling exploited, and I also very much like the majority of my media to be escapist fun rather than something that makes me depressed. Art doesn't have to be angsty, dammit!

Going back over the thread and OMIGOSH. Congratulations!

Remember everyone, the children of procedure and policy are demons and not to be discussed, lest we bring down their wrath upon us.

So, but... I'm a demon (of sorts), and I'm frequently wrathful here...

[Haruki-kun]

Remember everyone, the children of procedure and policy are demons and not to be discussed, lest we bring down their wrath upon us.

*fixes typo*

I deny everything.

[Psyren]

Has anyone else been watching Sense8? My guy and I just started it on a date night, and while it has a very Wachowski/Cloud Atlas habit of confusingly lurching between main character perspectives, both the sci-fi premise and LGBT-friendliness of it are exceedingly cool.

I'm only two episodes in so please no spoilers!

[Athedia]

Has anyone else been watching Sense8? My guy and I just started it on a date night, and while it has a very Wachowski/Cloud Atlas habit of confusingly lurching between main character perspectives, both the sci-fi premise and LGBT-friendliness of it are exceedingly cool.

I'm only two episodes in so please no spoilers!

I am afraid too. I worry it will be to much like Lucy (the movie) which drove me crazy. I love sci-fi but it has to be grounded in some reality, not someone misunderstanding science.

[Psyren]

Honestly Lucy didn't bother me that much. Yeah the entire premise was based on a science meme that was thoroughly debunked years prior, but I've seen better hollywood flicks kicked off with less. The first Matrix had one of the biggest plot holes in sci-fi history but it didn't get in the way of a genuinely enjoyable and thought-provoking romp, at least not until the sequels showed up and piddled all over everything the original had built. Though I guess I'm not exactly making myself feel any better since the Wachowskis were behind those too