The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 43
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Aquillion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Singapore

    Default Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Yes, I know the title sounds funny, but I'm only half-joking. All the other posts on dragons got me thinking... dragons really aren't that tough in D&D. Do we actually need class abilities at all to solve this challenge? So.

    Suppose you had to beat a CR 20 dragon with a level 20 commoner. All levels must be in commoner. You can't take a race with a level adjustment (since that's basically the same as having a level outside commoner), but you can take any other race, and you have the usual estimated wealth for a character of level 20.

    How would you go about getting the dragon's treasure? You don't actually have to kill it.

    Making an Elan and waiting for the dragon to die of old age would be one solution, but I'm sure there are less stupid ones.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    i dont know what game your playing or who your playing with but ya dragons are a hard thing to beat. A level 20 commoner could not, in any way beat the dragon. Even with items the dragon is going to be stronger, smarter, faster, and better equipped.
    My Current Works


    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure you're GLaDoS now.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Well, as you didn't specified the CR, you could go for a young white dragon and just kill it front foward.

    Or maybe trying to do as the bard done, but with more difficulty. Or maybe even just getting leadership, a good charisma, and then killing the dragon with sheer numbers.
    My avatar used to be a W.S.D. (Weapon of Sanity Destruction)
    "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post
    After reading the Dominic Deagen forum threads, can you really accuse me of bashing? Read it again. That is the kind of thing that is pure venom. They don't even take it seriously anymore. It's just done for fun.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Miles Invictus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Iowa, United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    The cynical solution is to hope like hell that WBL guidelines apply, and use our wealth to hire a band of real adventurers.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ocato's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Muncie, Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Luck Blade

    Wish 1: I wish this dragon would give me his horde Denied
    Wish 2: I wish I had the equivalent of his horde in wealth! Denied (assuming his horde is more than... 25,000g?)
    Wish 3: I wish-- *eaten by dragon*

    Dragon: Damn, wish I had a toothpick. Granted.
    Being a jerk to people on the internet does not make you cool.

    Avatar by Kalirush

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Fualkner Asiniti's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Somewhere I shouldn't be...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    ... Wow. Good sir, have you ever faced a well-played dragon over wyrmling status? Breath weapon, 100 ft. of flight, Killer powerful natural weapons, Spell-like abilities, and other special abilities. If faced in a place that it has any sort of tactical advantage (Like, oh say, anywhere except a 5 ft. tunnel.)
    a Young Adult Dragon could take down your Puny commoner.

    Dragon CR's are at least 2+ levels off base.

    (Tr-Tr-Triple Simu!!!!)
    Last edited by Fualkner Asiniti; 2007-04-27 at 10:59 PM.
    My sister has more ranks in Tumble then your level 13 rogue!

    (Seriously. She's a gymnast.)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Atreyu the Masked LLama View Post
    I'm not gonna pass up a 4 armed hug!
    STOCKS:
    Spoiler
    Show
    40 HNJO $240

    Total cost: 240

    Total left: 760
    Townies: Fualkner and Fellus

    Edge Riders: A new RPG system in the making. We need more members, so click that link!

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Inyssius Tor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Aah, that's no challenge. You need to give the commoner NPC Wealth-By-Level
    Last edited by Inyssius Tor; 2007-04-27 at 10:58 PM.
    Diamond Mind avatar provided by Abardam.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    TheOOB's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Seattle, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Considering that a level 20 commoner is like a level 10 fighter with less feats, the commoner is screwed. +10/+5 BAB, +6 Saves, 20d4(average 50 hp), NPC stat array(shutter), 7 feats(fighter would have 10).

    The best chance the commoner would have is getting an item of divine power, and an item of shivering touch(preferably maximised), after the dragon has 0 dex anyone could kill em.
    "Sometimes, were heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."

    -Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    If you permit all rules as written?
    Race: Kobold.
    Equipment: Ring of Three Wishes * 2
    Relavant Feats: Leadership, Assume Supernatural Ability (Manipulate Form)

    You know the rest.

    On a slightly more serious note, Maximize cross-class UMD, and use the basic Wizard route, only emulated with Scrolls.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TheLogman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Step 1: Use max ranks in Profession (Farmer) to create a huge feast for the yearly/monthly/weekly/daily/whatever tithe.
    Step 2: Use your massive wealth for a 20th level character to buy enough supplies to both ensure the dragon will die of constitution damage from all the poison you put in his offering, (Black Reaver Powder looks nice), and that you would not die of poisoning yourself.
    This would require almost as much poison as food, considering this is a CR 20 dragon with a +25 Fort save, but, with 2d6 constitution damage, only 100 checks are needed to really have a good chance at killing it, but hey you have time and money.
    Step 3: Go back to making insane amounts of money with your huge amount of ranks in Profession (Farmer)
    Last edited by TheLogman; 2007-04-27 at 11:11 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Take twenty levels of commoner. Specialize in Craft: Booze and Profession: Barkeep. Use your wealth to throw the biggest, most awesome party of all time. The next morning, while the dragon is still asleep in a drunken stupor, walk off with the loot.

    Edit: Dammit! Ninja'd!
    Last edited by Vyker; 2007-04-27 at 11:11 PM.
    "Invenium viam aut faciam -- I will either find a way, or I shall make one."

    "Outnumbered merely means a target-rich environment."

    "No Better Friend. No Worse Enemy."

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Common. If you are a Barkeep you just need to mention to your clients that there is a dragon in the place X and they will go kill for you.
    My avatar used to be a W.S.D. (Weapon of Sanity Destruction)
    "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post
    After reading the Dominic Deagen forum threads, can you really accuse me of bashing? Read it again. That is the kind of thing that is pure venom. They don't even take it seriously anymore. It's just done for fun.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLogman View Post
    Step 1: Use max ranks in Profession (Farmer) to create a huge feast for the yearly/monthly/weekly/daily/whatever tithe.
    Step 2: Use your massive wealth for a 20th level character to buy enough supplies to both ensure the dragon will die of constitution damage from all the poison you put in his offering, (Black Reaver Powder looks nice), and that you would not die of poisoning yourself.
    This would require almost as much poison as food, considering this is a CR 20 dragon with a +25 Fort save, but, with 2d6 constitution damage, only 100 checks are needed to really have a good chance at killing it, but hey you have time and money.
    Step 3: Go back to making insane amounts of money with your huge amount of ranks in Profession (Farmer)
    Mild problem with step 2 - RAW, you know when you successfully pass a save (and I suspect that the dragon might notice the Con damage). Unless the beasty is taking all 100 or so doses at once, you're liable to be very toasty (or totally shocked, or really chilling out, or whatever, depending on the dragon) if you try this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felius View Post
    Common. If you are a Barkeep you just need to mention to your clients that there is a dragon in the place X and they will go kill for you.
    Except for the teensy little caveat that you're not the one getting the hoard - the adventurers are. And you getting the hoard was the explicit goal of the excersize.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2007-04-27 at 11:16 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TheLogman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Well, I'm also assuming that the dragon is a stupid glutton/fool of an idiot that's gotten so fat that it can't leave it's cave, and demands tithes to stay alive. And ya, I was assuming that I could escape, and it would eat all the poison at once.

    Another idea is to get some awesome type of construct with my Profession/starting cash, and just kill the dragon with that, something like immune to cold in the case of a white dragon, or something else, depending on the breath weapon, that could also function as a way to keep children/trespassers/vermin off my lawn.
    Last edited by TheLogman; 2007-04-27 at 11:22 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Banned
     
    Koga's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    A commoner at level 20 max HP (not counting con mod) is 80.

    level ten characters can probably exceed that. And probably have better saves, BaB, everything.

    A level 20 commoner is equivalent to about a level 8 PC.

    Which wouldn't last a minute toe to toe with a dragon.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Well, going on the profession way, he could achieve goddly amounts of gold, and then buy himself a few constructs. Maybe a adamantium or mithril golem, or maybe even a colossus. He just need to work for a LONG time to get the money.
    My avatar used to be a W.S.D. (Weapon of Sanity Destruction)
    "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post
    After reading the Dominic Deagen forum threads, can you really accuse me of bashing? Read it again. That is the kind of thing that is pure venom. They don't even take it seriously anymore. It's just done for fun.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Yes, I know the title sounds funny, but I'm only half-joking. All the other posts on dragons got me thinking... dragons really aren't that tough in D&D. Do we actually need class abilities at all to solve this challenge? So.

    Suppose you had to beat a CR 20 dragon with a level 20 commoner. All levels must be in commoner. You can't take a race with a level adjustment (since that's basically the same as having a level outside commoner), but you can take any other race, and you have the usual estimated wealth for a character of level 20.

    How would you go about getting the dragon's treasure? You don't actually have to kill it.

    Making an Elan and waiting for the dragon to die of old age would be one solution, but I'm sure there are less stupid ones.
    I see no way of doing it short of extreme cheese. The commoner is relying on his items to do the job, because he sure can't. Now, he could pick up a candle of invocation, or maybe buy himself an effigy tarrasque and try to hit the dragon in its lair (and hope it can't teleport out), but I can't think of any way the commoner himself could do it.
    Last edited by Dausuul; 2007-04-27 at 11:30 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Jacob Orlove's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Davis, California Avatar by Ceika

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Well, 9th level scrolls are only about 4,000 gp each. Even Gate is only 9,000 gp. A pile of those, used carefully, should be enough to beat a dragon. All that shows, though, is that high level spells are good.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TheLogman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    But he's a commoner, commoners can't use scrolls, can they? I thought that was only spellcasters who could cast that anyway. Plus, how is a commoner going to survive long enough to shoot the dragon before being fried, even if he could cast 9th level spells?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Aquillion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Singapore

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Orlove View Post
    Well, 9th level scrolls are only about 4,000 gp each. Even Gate is only 9,000 gp. A pile of those, used carefully, should be enough to beat a dragon. All that shows, though, is that high level spells are good.
    The problem is that UMD is not a class skill for commoners. That means they can have it up to 11.5 at most. Now, Skill Focus: UMD for +3, and Magical Aptitude for +2, and that's 16.5... You'd need a lot of wisdom to be able to use level 9 scrolls (DC 29) with any probability of success. And don't forget you'll need 19 int for level 19 wizard scrolls, or else you need another check to mimic that, too.

    There are other magic items that wouldn't require UMD, of course. Or you could hire someone to read the scrolls for you.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Find an unusually Lawful dragon, challenge it something, and then cheat or twist the words of the contest.

    I saw an episode of Garfield and Friends where there an adaption of a Chinese legend. A dragon was extorting food from a village and a cat (aka an Ancient Chinese Garfield) was sent to give the dragon his tribute but naturally ate it before he arrived. In order to avoid being killed in retribution, he bet that if he could eat more the dragon, the dragon would leave and the dragon accepted. The cat ate all the dragons remaining food, so by default the dragon couldn't eat more so he won. It's silly and very Garfieldesque but it's not different from a lot of Chinese mythology where clever heroes tend to succeed where strong ones fail.
    Insert witty signature here

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Jack Mann's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    We'll go with a spell scale, I think, for that bonus to charisma. He also puts one of his elevens in charisma (we're assuming worst case scenario, with the tens and elevens all around). He starts with a thirteen in charisma. From there, he puts all five increases into charisma, bringing it up to eighteen. With a cloak of charisma +6 (easily affordable), he's up to 24, for a +7.

    Now, he cross-classes UMD, for eleven ranks. His total modifier is now +18. With some cross-classed spellcraft and decipher script, it rises to +22, where scrolls are concerned. With skill focus and magical aptitude, this rises to +27. This uses up most of his skill points and two feats, but that's all right. He can cast anything up to a level eight spell off of a scroll, with no chance of failure. He can still fail on a one with level nine spells, but that's a risk he has to take.

    Now he buys his items. These include a scroll of assay spell resistance, a scroll of maximized shivering touch, and two scrolls of time stop. He'll also want a helm of teleportation, in case things go wrong.

    Now, he lies in wait somewhere the dragon is likely to pass near. He places some of the dragon's favorite food out (assuming an evil commoner, this could even be other humanoids, but let's assume he's good, and it's a mutton-loving dragon). It's important, of course, to do this somewhere the food source is commonly found, or else the dragon will get suspicious. He hides nearby. He should be out of sight (and I mean completely out of sight, so that the dragon doesn't get that spot check), but somewhere he can be certain of hearing the dragon when it sets down to eat, preferably downwind of the sheep. Once he's certain the dragon is within range (no more than six times his movement away), he casts time stop. Thanks to his UMD score, he only fails this on a one. If he fails, he hurries like hell to try and cast the second scroll of time stop before the dragon decides to figure out just who's casting spells.

    Once he's got time stop up, his next action depends on several factors. First, whether or not he flubbed the first roll. On the off-chance he has, he gets the heck out of dodge, using the helm of teleportation. He can try again with a different dragon some other day. If he hasn't, then it depends on how much time he got with the initial timestop. If he only got two rounds, he casts off of the second scroll, then moves out in the direction of the dragon.

    He now sees where the dragon is. Ideally, he should be able to reach it with a run action (and he's taken the run feat, so he can move 150 feet in a round). Now, with luck, he has at least two more rounds once he's reached the dragon (if not, then it's time to run again, discretion being the better part of valor). He casts assay spell resistance. Then he readies an action to cast shivering touch.

    As soon as the time stop ends, he casts the spell. It's the equivilant of an eighth level spell, but he can get that even on a natural one. He can hit the dragon's touch AC on anything but a natural one as well. The scroll's caster level is +15, and with assay spell resistance, that rises to +25. That'll get him past the spell resistance of any CR 20 dragon.

    Of course, if he rolls a natural one on the touch attack, he's utterly, utterly screwed, since it's unlikely he'll survive even one round with the dragon. But hey, no guts, no glory.

    Now the dragon takes 18 dex damage. It is paralyzed.

    Our crafty peasant takes out a scythe, grins, and starts the coup de gras. He has fifteen rounds to try. And he's got more than enough gold left to get plenty of enhancements to the scythe. Eventually, the dragon is dead.

    He can spend the rest of his wealth on bags of holding to transport the dragon's hoard.

    Now, granted, this isn't foolproof. It's possible the dragon is paranoid enough not to fall for the trap. But it's got a good chance of working. By the time the dragon gets the listen check for the spellcasting, the commoner is in the surprise round. He's paralyzed the dragon before it gets an action. It might not work, but then again, it might.
    I am a poor man, some say Im half crazy,
    son of the sword and the knife
    Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
    my heart and my pride and my life
    --Bella Doa, by Joe Bethancourt
    Spoiler
    Show


    Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth

    Owl-atar by KingGolem
    You will be missed, dear 'stache...

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Demented's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    In search of cheese

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Basically, the same strategy as the Wizard, without the foolproof guarantee. And more style. (Mutton bait! Scythe CDG!) Heh.
    Belkar's Bad to the Bone.
    Dispossible a fetter hein and bemay kine a sinder's tock.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Lovecraft Country

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Max out Profession (bartender), or some equally appropriate skill. Bluff doesn't hurt either, even if you have to spend a feat to get it in-class.

    Set up a bar.

    78% of all campaigns will begin at the bar, of course, which means that you have vast numbers of qualified mooks to throw at the offending dragon.

    Promise them "as much as you can afford" if only they could help get rid of that dragon. Remember: if they have PC levels, all commoners look the same. They'll never guess how much you're stiffing them

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Take Leadership. Get a L17 Wizard. Win D&D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxic_Avenger View Post
    Trust me, Ikkitosen knows what he's talking about.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TRM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    46/96 (13)

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    No. If the commoner has enough gold to hire all these adventurers then the dragon most likely does too (they both have about the same amount of gold?) and the dragon is better. Dragon flys over to the commoner and eats him (1 full attack). End of story.
    silver
    avatar by Banjo1985

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    UglyPanda's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    The trick is that bartending allows you to own a tavern where adventurers hang out, not that the money from the skill would let you hire them. It's simply that they wouldn't notice how high your level is since you're a commoner and assume that the reward is only a few thousand gold.
    Last edited by UglyPanda; 2007-04-28 at 08:51 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    But the adventurers also get the dragon horde. What you need to do next is:

    Take enough ranks in Profession (brewer) that everyone knows that you can make the most potent of beers. Buy the adventurers a bunch of drinks. With any luck, they'll soon drink themselves into unconsciousness (depending on how drinking is run, and on what sort of defenses the adventurers have, you may be able to speed up the process with some Oil of Taggit, but odds are most of them will be quite capable of making the save. Still, if alcohol is considered a poison, they might not notice the extra Fort saves, and you might get away with it). Once they're all out, coup de grace them all in their sleep. Start with the Wizard. Or, for a safer approach, use the UMD-monkey build to slap them all with some ridiculous Geas, like "Kill every dragon in the world without using any items." Meanwhile, take the horde and run.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    dragons aren't tough, you sure about that?
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Ivius's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Level 20 Commoner vs. Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    *Snip*
    Bravo. You just win.
    After some x length of time, the charge in the capacitor went down to 0.1e-17[mV]. After writing the answer on the board, my professor turned to the class, pointed at it, and said "What's this number?" We said "That's one times ten to the negative 18 millivolts" when he interupted us and said "Wrong! The answer is zero. If you can't accept that 0.1e-17[mV] is equal to zero, you need to change your major to math right now, or you will hate the rest of your career."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •