oWoD: Does Arete dictate personality?

[Talakeal]

So I am playing in a Mage game (which is overall going great) however, last night one of the players told me that I am not "playing my character properly". I am playing a character who has a lot of personality flaws and is young, impulsive, reckless, and stubborn, and she frequently makes mistakes. Several times I have made tactical decisions which I know to be suboptimal as a player, but I feel that this is what my character would do.

One of the other players told me that because I have an arête of four I need to be roleplaying as if my character was extremely wise and enlightened, and that it was poor roleplaying to have a powerful mage character who was anything but serene, transcendent, and all knowing.

Is this actually a limitation of the system or is the player just reading too much into the "magical enlightenment" aspect of arête? Does mage actually pigeonhole you into a playing a certain character type to advance your arête, effectively meaning you have to choose between power and playing the character you want to play?

[Andreaz]

So I am playing in a Mage game (which is overall going great) however, last night one of the players told me that I am not "playing my character properly". I am playing a character who has a lot of personality flaws and is young, impulsive, reckless, and stubborn, and she frequently makes mistakes. Several times I have made tactical decisions which I know to be suboptimal as a player, but I feel that this is what my character would do.

One of the other players told me that because I have an arête of four I need to be roleplaying as if my character was extremely wise and enlightened, and that it was poor roleplaying to have a powerful mage character who was anything but serene, transcendent, and all knowing.

Is this actually a limitation of the system or is the player just reading too much into the "magical enlightenment" aspect of arête? Does mage actually pigeonhole you into a playing a certain character type to advance your arête, effectively meaning you have to choose between power and playing the character you want to play?

Nope. Arete does not enforce any kind of behavior on the character. Arete is an intimate understanding of the universe mixed with raw excellence.
Saying arete demands serious wise-like behavior is like demanding scientists can't feel wonder and awe when they meet something new, or can't laugh at a lolcat meme.

[The Glyphstone]

As usual, when someone tells you that you are playing your character wrong, they are the one with a problem.

[BWR]

As usual, when someone tells you that you are playing your character wrong, they are the one with a problem.

I agree in many cases but there are, IME, cases where people claim they are trying to act one way but act the complete opposite. I'd say that's 'doing it wrong'.
E.g. if you play L5R and say you want to play a stereotypical Hida warrior, but then play him as a cowardly, quiet, smarmy politically savvy and polite courtier - you're doing it wrong as far as being a stereotpyical Hida is concerned. When people insist they are doing it right and ignore established setting elements because they misunderstand the setting, they are doing it wrong.
If players are aware of what they are doing, how it relates to the setting and game and are doing it intentionally, they aren't doing it wrong (unless they play just to ruin things for other people).

[pasko77]

As usual, when someone tells you that you are playing your character wrong, they are the one with a problem.

As noticed above, this is a hell of a claim.

[Andreaz]

As noticed above, this is a hell of a claim.

Not as much. The contradiciton you're bringing is for when a player says he wants to play like X, then plays like Y. That's self-contradiction, and what he says is not that.
The other case is when you state a premise and the other players don't want that premise. In that case you don't even start until an agreement is reached.

The OP has the premise of a reckless character, and people are saying he can't be reckless because of a mechanical statement that...has nothing to do with behavior.

[pasko77]

Not as much. The contradiciton you're bringing is for when a player says he wants to play like X, then plays like Y. That's self-contradiction, and what he says is not that.
The other case is when you state a premise and the other players don't want that premise. In that case you don't even start until an agreement is reached.

The OP has the premise of a reckless character, and people are saying he can't be reckless because of a mechanical statement that...has nothing to do with behavior.

I'm not arguing on Op's point. I was just stating that Glyphstone's conclusion is an undue generalization.

I'll post an example of what I mean: it happened that a character was transformed, and this transformation included a substantial decrease in intelligence. You can say he was lobotomised, ok? Now, this condition was meant as temporary, mind you, the player should have restrainted themself and accept to play a dummy for one or two sessions.

There was no way.

He would keep playing as if he was normal. He wouldn't accept the answer "your character cannot come up with this solution".

Was he playing it "wrong" or not?

[Andreaz]

I'm not arguing on Op's point. I was just stating that Glyphstone's conclusion is an undue generalization.

I'll post an example of what I mean: it happened that a character was transformed, and this transformation included a substantial decrease in intelligence. You can say he was lobotomised, ok? Now, this condition was meant as temporary, mind you, the player should have restrainted themself and accept to play a dummy for one or two sessions.

There was no way.

He would keep playing as if he was normal. He wouldn't accept the answer "your character cannot come up with this solution".

Was he playing it "wrong" or not?

Yeah, sure, but that still falls under what I defined as self contradiction. There was a clear, undeniable reason the character should behave in a way, but the player behaved in another. I'd be lenient, but not negligent in enforcing such player character to act that way. You're skipping the primary assumption under Glyphstone's statement: People telling you you are playing wrong often have no basis for it other than what they feel is proper.

[JeenLeen]

One of the other players told me that because I have an arête of four I need to be roleplaying as if my character was extremely wise and enlightened, and that it was poor roleplaying to have a powerful mage character who was anything but serene, transcendent, and all knowing.

Is this actually a limitation of the system or is the player just reading too much into the "magical enlightenment" aspect of arête? Does mage actually pigeonhole you into a playing a certain character type to advance your arête, effectively meaning you have to choose between power and playing the character you want to play?

I agree with the others that you are not playing your character wrong. Higher Arete does mean that you have worked through some stuff, but there's no reason you can't have flaws. A high-Arete Cult of Ecstasy might act like your character does because of detachment and not taking things too seriously because they have high Arete. And I don't think Arete 4+ Iteration Xers would be 'serene, transcendent, and all knowing' but they certainly exist. Certainly high-Arete Order of Hermes lose their cool in politics (note the destruction of their main chantry on Mars.)

I do recommend talking with the player and the Storyteller to determine what Arete means in your game of Mage. It is possible that the player is acting on honest misconceptions, perhaps enforced by the Storyteller, and to them it's like saying if you have Dodge 5 but RP like you can't do squat in a game do dodgeball, you're playing your character wrong. The only exception to this is if the Storyteller says Arete is a limiter like this, and thus that, for this given game of Mage, it is. But I would hope you could talk with them and reach a conclusion that allows you to play your character like you want to (i.e., Storyteller changes what Arete means, or rules that Arete 4 is not too high to still be a bit foolish).

[gom jabbarwocky]

In regards to the OP, I'd actually say that Arete could influence your personality, but in the opposite way that this other player claims. You see, as one's Arete rises it could easily begin to throw your already innate character aspects into sharper relief.

Think about it. Mages are people who discovered the secrets of the cosmos, that their personal philosophy about the universe is true. As Arete rises, there's a kind of nosce te ipsum thing going on, as the mage becomes more in-tune with themselves.

So, with that perspective in mind, if a character starts off impulsive and reckless as defining character traits, as their Arete rises, justifying their values, they should become more impulsive and reckless, not less.

On the other hand, maybe what I'm describing is more of a function of Resonance instead, but Resonance rises to reflect one's character traits and re-enforce them, not the other way around.

[LibraryOgre]

In regards to the OP, I'd actually say that Arete could influence your personality, but in the opposite way that this other player claims. You see, as one's Arete rises it could easily begin to throw your already innate character aspects into sharper relief.

I was going to say this, or something rather like this... as your Arete rises, I would think it would become an aspect of you being more in tune with your paradigm, so it MIGHT manifest as you being chill and wise... but I could see a VA becoming more and more hyper as they start to see how everything is connected.

[Mando Knight]

I was going to say this, or something rather like this... as your Arete rises, I would think it would become an aspect of you being more in tune with your paradigm, so it MIGHT manifest as you being chill and wise... but I could see a VA becoming more and more hyper as they start to see how everything is connected.

"Crazy Wizard" is just a magic version of "Mad Scientist." Show them, show them all!

[DodgerH2O]

Arete to me always reflected insight about the nature of the Mage's personal connection to reality. The effects are greater power over any specific aspect of reality manipulation and less reliance on tools/crutches. It may affect personality but there is no requirement that it do so, especially not in a consistent fashion from character to character.

The argument given by the other player seems like saying that just because someone has studied mathematics for long enough to perform calculus in their head they must be more calm and collected than the person who still uses a calculator for basic addition and subtraction. It may be true in some or many cases but doesn't necessarily follow.

[Andreaz]

Arete to me always reflected insight about the nature of the Mage's personal connection to reality. The effects are greater power over any specific aspect of reality manipulation and less reliance on tools/crutches. It may affect personality but there is no requirement that it do so, especially not in a consistent fashion from character to character.

The argument given by the other player seems like saying that just because someone has studied mathematics for long enough to perform calculus in their head they must be more calm and collected than the person who still uses a calculator for basic addition and subtraction. It may be true in some or many cases but doesn't necessarily follow.

Personal example: I have a chat group that's been around for years now. It's named after pants. We often talk about corgis and lolcats, make terrible puns, erotic literature and insult each others' intellects on a regular basis.
These same people are also... International-class programers successfully tackling problems in the fields of big data analysis and self-replicating algorithms. Mildly successful businessmen running a school and an aerospace company aiming to trivialize space flight. A forensic physicist. Philosophers debating on the ethics of human research. We still crack when we see the corgi flop. This very evening we spent the better part of an hour making fun of how high my cat is because the anesthetics from his surgery aren't fully purged yet.