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2017-01-15, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
1. No, it does have other unique features whether or not they are iconic is a different matter entirely and is an issue in the base class. Yours though isn't even a base class being well under half of the character.
2. Yes those features do very much lack the power but not only was it because of the Extra Attacks and Action Surge it was also because of the 2 extra ASI's. If you would calculate a 2 short rest day in comparison to a Paladin the Fighter would have 3d10+60 hit points to heal plus the effective 80(40 more hit points, +2 per hit die) gained from better base stat allocation or feats vs. the Paladin's 100 extra hit points. While the Paladin does gain better saves and spells the Fighter can gain more resources in subclasses as well while Paladin's sub-class structure only gives one potential increase in its capstone. Yours though as I pointed out have ballooned these numbers far more to where the Paladin is looking very small through out its growth.
3. I did notice them but to me the Eldritch Knight and the Champion are the clear winners.
4. You didn't succeed while you could be getting better hits on average due to fighting styles, the lack of an offensive or defensive sub-class choices you made it weaker in achieving either desire of a character.
5. As I said you have two versions here that are vastly than their intended counterparts(considering the Eldritch Knight is a half-caster now). As such the promise of a Warblade is looking very ominous.Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-01-15 at 01:10 PM.
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2017-01-15, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
In order to get all of that tasty self-healing you have to choose Champion as your subclass right and you give up Rage or spellcasting. Believe me, I also think adding SO MUCH to the Action Surge/Second Wind is going overboard, but others suggested the Champion was still too weak and that the ability was still balanced.
It's all well and good to just say the Champion and EK are overpowered and just better than other classes, but I'm away from my books and laptop for now and can't judge these things point by point. So if you could convince me with examples of how the classes make Paladins or Rangers look weak, then I'd appreciate it. I'm not seeing it for now. The EK gives up Action Surge, three and four extra attacks, and Indomitable that it used to get in order to gain spellpower to match with the Paladin and Ranger.
Champions, most people admit just doesn't compete in versatility or power, in or out of combat, so I wanted to beef it up and give it extra versatility while staying the simple option. Now, if the Champion has become stronger than, say, a Swashbuckler Rogue, or something, well I think I've gone overboard.Last edited by Ziegander; 2017-01-15 at 01:54 PM.
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2017-01-15, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
1. Hence why they are both the winners, but lets just use the Eldritch Knight here for example. A level 3 Eldritch Knight can cast the Blade Ward and be resistant to both spell damage and non-magical weapon damage as many times they would like. Now as for spell combos well you don't have any spells specified nor new ones described but lets just use a classic melee touch spell Vampiric Touch. At level 15 with a +1 greatsword we are modestly looking at a 5d6+4(24) swing while giving back 6 thp with an almost a guaranteed use of GWF and a 10-20% chance of making a critical hit of 10d6+4 while giving back 12 thp for 1 minute. Keep in mind this is a modest choice as we could ask what would something like this do with Scorching Ray? At level 20 they are adding 2 attacks to this, with cantrips and certain attack spells they are out damaging the Champion. Additionally they choices of the damage types opens up far more opportunities to exploit vulnerabilities seeing that radiant damage might have 2 monsters that are vulnerable to it.
2. Your Champion under my daily model is healing 24d10+30 hit points not to mention tucking in the original's capstone earlier. It is also like its predecessor out damaging a Swashbuckler Rogue since it does nothing to increase either its critical frequency or its maximum potential damage. A 10d6 looks good but if it just once a round more attacks are going to win. As for utility yes the Rogue get better skills but your Champion is making better Athletics checks than a Barbarian with a similar strategy, advantage loses to expertise in the long run and 65% of the time the roll is going to be better than 24.
3. I get the idea of making it more useful but in the end as a plain jane fighter its numbers are solid so adding all of this just makes it a bit too good in everything. Maybe you can find better combos in one aspect but not all.Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-01-15 at 03:26 PM.
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2017-01-15, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
I don't have time to go point for point with you for now, but
1) This EK doesn't get cantrips.
2) Obviously the Champion will outdamage a Swashbuckler, that wasn't my point. I want the Champion to be consistently powerful in combat, only behind in the damage race against a raging Barbarian. That was the goal anyway. My point was that if my Champion is overall a stronger class than a Swashbuckler Rogue, as an example, then let's talk about how to tone it down.
3) I do think Action Surge + massively empowered Second Wind is overly strong. So what do you think I could/should do to tone it down?Homebrew
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2017-01-15, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
1. It can get them easily enough without any multiclassing via race or magic initiate.
2. In terms of almost all combat, survivability and athletics it is stronger. The only reason why it isn't in every respect is because of the Swashbuckler's charm ability which is overpowered to begin with.
3. The numbers were fine as before so combining them and thp instead would probably suffice that way they can use it any time they want.Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-01-15 at 04:11 PM.
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2017-02-01, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
Custom EK Spells
1ST LEVEL
Cometfall
Deadly Dance
Kinetic Strike
Meteoric Strike
2ND LEVEL
Blindstrike
Enfeebling Blow
Stunning Blow
3RD LEVEL
Ether Strike
Frost Tomb
Regroup
4TH LEVEL
Earth Reaver
5TH LEVEL
Doom Blade
Cometfall
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 20 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous (see text)
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and a cloud of ice shards and mist bursts from the impact dealing 2d6 cold damage to the target and reducing its speed by half for 1 minute. The affected creature is entitled to a Constitution save at the end of each of its turns to end the reduction to its speed.
At Higher LevelsWhen you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the cold damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st. If you cast this spell from a 3rd or 5th level spell slot, the cold damage and speed reduction affect all creatures within a 5 foot radius or 10 foot radius, respectively (not including yourself).
Deadly Dance
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 20 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute.
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and takes an additional 1d8 necrotic damage. At the start of each of your subsequent turns, you can use your bonus action to maintain the spell. Otherwise, the spell ends.
For the duration of the spell, whenever you hit the target with a weapon attack within the spell's range the creature takes an additional 1d8 necrotic damage.
Kinetic Strike
1st-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a creature moves out of you reach without using the Disengage action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous
As part of the reaction used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range as it moves out of your reach, otherwise the spell fails. This spell also fails if the creature used the Disengage action.
Your attack interrupts the creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.
If this attack hits, it is an automatic critical hit. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, takes 1d8 additional force damage, and falls prone unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw.
At Higher LevelsWhen you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the force damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
Meteoric Strike
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and blistering flames erupt from the point of contact dealing the target and creatures within 10 feet (not including yourself) 2d6 fire damage. A successful Dexterity save halves the fire damage dealt by this spell.
At Higher LevelsWhen you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the fire damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st. If you cast this spell from a 3rd or 5th level spell slot, the fire damage applies to all creatures within 15 feet or 20 feet, respectively (not including yourself).
Blindstrike
2nd-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous (see text)
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and is blinded for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the blinded creature can make a Constitution saving throw to remove the blinded condition.
Enfeebling Blow
2nd-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: 1 minute
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, takes 3d6 additional poison damage and deals only half damage with weapon attacks that use Strength until the spell ends. At the end of each of the target's turns, it can make a Constitution saving throw against the spell. On a success, the spell ends.
At Higher LevelsIf you cast this spell from a 5th level slot, the initial poison damage increases to 7d6 and the creature is also poisoned until the spell ends. Each time the creature fails its saving throw to end the spell it suffers 1d6 additional poison damage.
Stunning Blow
2nd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, takes 2d6 thunder damage, and is stunned unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw. For the duration of the spell, at the end of each of the target's turns, it can make a Constitution saving throw against the spell. On a success, the spell ends.
At Higher LevelsWhen you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the thunder damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.
Ether Strike
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, takes 1d10 additional force damage, and for the duration of the spell whenever the target makes an attack it must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, roll a d20. On a roll of 11 or higher, the target vanishes from your current plane of existence and appears in the Ethereal Plane. At the start of the target's next turn, it reappears in the nearest unoccupied space within 10 feet of where it vanished from. If no unoccupied space is available, it reappears in the nearest unoccupied space (chosen randomly if more than one space is equally near).
While on the Ethereal Plane, the target can see and hear the plane it vanished from, which is cast in shades of grey, but not beyond 30 feet. It can only affect or be affected by other creatures on the Ethereal Plane. Creatures that aren't there can't perceive or interact with the target, unless they have a special ability that permits them to.
Frost Tomb
3rd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, takes 4d8 cold damage and must make a Strength saving throw or become frozen solid for the spell's duration. A successful save halves the cold damage and negates the frozen solid condition.
A creature that is frozen solid is entombed in ice that has AC equal to your spell save DC and hit points equal to 10 times the slot level you cast this spell from. For as long as the ice is not destroyed or until the effect causing the frozen solid condition is ended, the frozen creature cannot be struck or targeted directly. Any damage dealt to the ice is dealt also to the frozen creature. The ice itself is immune to cold, poison and psychic damage; resistant to piercing and slashing damage; and vulnerable to fire damage.
A creature that is frozen solid cannot move or speak, automatically fails all Dexterity saving throws, and becomes vulnerable to bludgeoning and thunder damage. At the end of each of the frozen creature's turns it may make a Strength saving throw against the spell. On a success, the creature breaks free from the ice and the spell ends. On a failure, the ice loses a number of hit points equal to the frozen creature's Strength bonus (if any).
At Higher LevelsWhen you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the initial cold damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd.
Regroup
3rd-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 300 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
As you cast the spell, each non-hostile creature in the spell's range may choose to be instantly transported to any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you of that creature's choice. If an unoccupied space is unavailable for any such creature within 30 feet of you, that creature may choose to suffer 1d10 force damage and be transported instead to any unoccupied space within 100 feet of you. If no unoccupied space is available within 100 feet of you, the spell fails.
Earth Reaver
4th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and the force of your blow is felt to the heart of the world. A 30 foot cone-shaped area emanating from the target's space becomes difficult terrain as earth, stone, and other debris erupt from the ground dealing creatures in the area 2d6 bludgeoning damage, 2d6 fire damage, and 4d8 piercing damage. Creatures in the area are entitled to a Dexterity saving throw against the spell taking half damage on a success but falling prone on a failure.
Doom Blade
5th-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and is dealt 8d8 additional necrotic damage. A successful Constitution saving throw halves this damage. After taking damage from this spell, if the target has 100 or fewer hit points it must make a second Constitution saving throw. On a failure, the creature dies.Last edited by Ziegander; 2017-02-25 at 01:14 AM.
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2017-02-02, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2016
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- Underdark
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
Skully boyfriend's lead to skully wendigo weddings.Spoiler: Linklelelinklele you have brought a beautiful and favorite character of mine as well as fluffy to life i wanted to thank you. i may never again switch my avatar
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2017-02-02, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
They're homebrew spells, you can do with them as you please, but the entire purpose of designing them was to give the Eldritch Knight unique spells like Paladins and Rangers have their own unique spells.
What do you think of them? Do any of them jump out as overpowered to you?Last edited by Ziegander; 2017-02-02 at 02:32 PM.
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2017-02-03, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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- Underdark
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
These look like the perfect spells for the wizard out of the scag an they fill out the void a little better than the original ek did
Skully boyfriend's lead to skully wendigo weddings.Spoiler: Linklelelinklele you have brought a beautiful and favorite character of mine as well as fluffy to life i wanted to thank you. i may never again switch my avatar
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2017-02-03, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Back home
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
Frost Tomb strikes me as being too good for its level. I like that it is best used with help from other magical party members capable of supplying fire damage, but it seems like 8d8 damage AND and incapacitation effect as a 3rd level spell is a bit much. This is a spell that is arguably better than cone of Cold in many circumstances, and the Eldritch knight gets it at the same level as a full caster gets cone of cold. To fix it, I'd straight up halve the initial damage.
Stunning Strike is often regarded as one of the most powerful and useful aspects of the monk class. Despite my great disrespect and hatred for monks as a whole, I don't think that porting over a better (if more limited in repeatability) version to the fighter class is a good idea.
I like Enfeebling Blow, Meteoric Strike, Regroup, and BlindStrike. Earth Reaver seems too mild.
Deadly Dance should be changed so that it works better with extra attack, similar to the way hex works with eldritch blast. It is slightly more damage than Hex, but I think you went a bit too far in counter-balancing that.
My re-do of Deadly Dance:
Name Stays the Same
Casting Time Stays the Same
Range Stays the Same
Duration Stays the Same
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and takes an additional 1d8 necrotic damage. At the start of each of your subsequent turns, you can use your bonus action to maintain the spell. Otherwise, the spell ends. For the duration of the spell, whenever you hit the target with a weapon attack within the spell's range the creature takes an additional 1d8 necrotic damage.
Kinetic Strike's casting time should specify what the reaction is in response to. Also, are creatures that take the disengage action, or are otherwise exempt from opportunity attacks affected by kinetic strike? If they are, I suggest that they shouldn't be.
Doom Blade is something that I'm not particularly against, but it might tend to overshadow the other fighters. Think about whether you would be comfortable giving a character a once/day solar's Longbow of Slaying.
A general note: Most of these spells should specify that the additional damage dice are not doubled on a crit, because 16d8 damage + double weapon damage and incapacitation at level 9 (critical frost tomb) is going a bit far.
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2017-02-03, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: 5e Fighter Ziegander Style (a Work in Progress)
It's 8d6, so my point of comparison was Fireball, which is itself often better than cone of cold. Where Fireball and cone of cold have Frost Tomb beat (and where cone of cold has its only real edge against fireball) are their large areas of effect.
Even still, that was probably the one I was most worried about. Considering it tacks on a melee weapon attack I think I can safely lower it to 6d6 damage.
Stunning Strike is often regarded as one of the most powerful and useful aspects of the monk class. Despite my great disrespect and hatred for monks as a whole, I don't think that porting over a better (if more limited in repeatability) version to the fighter class is a good idea.
I like Enfeebling Blow, Meteoric Strike, Regroup, and BlindStrike. Earth Reaver seems too mild.
Deadly Dance should be changed so that it works better with extra attack, similar to the way hex works with eldritch blast. It is slightly more damage than Hex, but I think you went a bit too far in counter-balancing that.
My re-do of Deadly Dance:
Name Stays the Same
Casting Time Stays the Same
Range Stays the Same
Duration Stays the Same
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and takes an additional 1d8 necrotic damage. At the start of each of your subsequent turns, you can use your bonus action to maintain the spell. Otherwise, the spell ends. For the duration of the spell, whenever you hit the target with a weapon attack within the spell's range the creature takes an additional 1d8 necrotic damage.
Kinetic Strike's casting time should specify what the reaction is in response to. Also, are creatures that take the disengage action, or are otherwise exempt from opportunity attacks affected by kinetic strike? If they are, I suggest that they shouldn't be.Doom Blade is something that I'm not particularly against, but it might tend to overshadow the other fighters. Think about whether you would be comfortable giving a character a once/day solar's Longbow of Slaying.
A general note: Most of these spells should specify that the additional damage dice are not doubled on a crit, because 16d8 damage + double weapon damage and incapacitation at level 9 (critical frost tomb) is going a bit far.
EDIT: Nerfs and other changes made.Last edited by Ziegander; 2017-02-03 at 09:02 PM.
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!